Pocket 6K Pro

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John Richard

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostMon Mar 15, 2021 11:39 pm

focuspulling wrote:
BMPCC6KPro Blue Tint.jpg

Not easy to see from this smartphone snapshot because of relative exposure, but the blue tint problem actually caused problems for me this weekend. For livestreams, you want accurate color monitoring since you can't save that for later adjusting BRAW recordings - after all, it's live. (The two screens looked very different, and I couldn't activate live monitoring on the computer during these calibration steps.) I REALLY hope Blackmagic fixes this. I ended up replacing the livestreams with the backup of my local camera files, but that took a LOT of time editing and wrangling media (besides the other reason that YouTube Live severely degrades quality, a whole other matter):


Wouldn't it have been easier to just:
1. adjust out the known blue tint in the cameras before the shoot (until the firmware fix by BM)

2. Using Resolve and Remote Grade Follows and grade out the blue to neutral. Then all the other clips shot on same camera would have followed this blue grade reduction.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 12:04 am

John Richard wrote:
focuspulling wrote:
BMPCC6KPro Blue Tint.jpg

Not easy to see from this smartphone snapshot because of relative exposure, but the blue tint problem actually caused problems for me this weekend. For livestreams, you want accurate color monitoring since you can't save that for later adjusting BRAW recordings - after all, it's live. (The two screens looked very different, and I couldn't activate live monitoring on the computer during these calibration steps.) I REALLY hope Blackmagic fixes this. I ended up replacing the livestreams with the backup of my local camera files, but that took a LOT of time editing and wrangling media (besides the other reason that YouTube Live severely degrades quality, a whole other matter):


Wouldn't it have been easier to just:
1. adjust out the known blue tint in the cameras before the shoot (until the firmware fix by BM)

2. Using Resolve and Remote Grade Follows and grade out the blue to neutral. Then all the other clips shot on same camera would have followed this blue grade reduction.

The lighting conditions and according white balance of the space simply can't be predicted; meantime there's currently the perfect storm of my BMPCC6K Pro using Gen. 5 color science, and my BMPCC4K not, so even when I perfectly match color temperatures and hue values by number, no dice! The elephant in the room is that even if there are alternative hacks, better that the monitor gets software-calibrated via firmware update.
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John Richard

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 1:38 am

Do you use Resolve?
No knock on you at all.
It is a big help though. I am a Premiere person but am moving away to Resolve as it solves a lot of problems and is great for the ATEM ISO that auto generates Resolve projects .drp files.
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Michel Rabe

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 1:28 pm

I'm a die hard BMD fan since the OG camera, but they keep being a little messy concerning their cameras. C'mon mates :)
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 2:49 pm

i don't know how much of my 6KP is 'off' with the display being blue or the tint of ND6 being off, but i'm just enjoying it and shooting some great stuff.

i haven't done an A-B test with my UMPG2 NDs, to see if there's similarities, but i still rather get a slightly tinted shot than an over exposed shot.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 9:52 pm

WahWay wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:The new Pocket 6K Pro is looking more like the Nikon Z6/7 for factor with the added bump on top for the EVF mount/socket. Looks close to the same size also.
Cheers


Funny you should say that. Z6/7 II also just recieve an optional upgrade for in camera Braw recording. Are we witnessing a start of a joint collaboration? I do like the way the Nikon Z6/7 II uses eye control AF. I'm awaiting Pocket 6K Pro's EVF with potential ;)


Sorry the BMD BRaw update for the Z6/7IInis the same as for the first Z6/7, it adds support to output a Raw signal can be recorded on a VAnrecorder, not recorded internally,
Nikon has released firmware updates for its Z6 and Z7 mirrorless cameras that makes it possible to recored external Blackmagic RAW (BRAW) over HDMI to a compatible recorder.

Firmware version 3.20 for both the Z6 and Z7 features two major changes regarding Raw video workflows. The first is that both the Z6 and Z7 can now output Blackmagic Raw video to the Video Assist 5” 12G HDR and Video Assist 7” 12G HDR, released in September 2019. In order to make use of the feature, Z6 and Z7 owners must have purchased the Raw video output upgrade from Nikon, which costs $199 requires the camera(s) to be sent into a Nikon service center.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 11:42 pm

focuspulling wrote:so even when I perfectly match color temperatures and hue values by number, no dice
You could line up a dozen Alexa Mini's side by side, and set them all to exactly the same tent + tint values, and it's a good bet that the images would not be identical. Every camera needs to be custom white balanced, even if they are same make + model, no matter the manufacturer. So it's not just the Gen 4 versus Gen5 difference there. You'll need to custom white balance each of your cameras.

BMD has a very good auto white balance tool built into their cameras. Just point each camera at a grey card (or even a piece of white office paper in a pinch) and they will match, even though the temp + tint numbers will likely be different.

As for dealing with the different log curves and gamut of Gen 4 versus Gen 5, in post you can set the BRAW metadata to be Gen5 on any clip from any camera that records BRAW.

EDIT - But yes, it will be more convenient when all the Pocket cameras are updated to Gen5. I too am eagerly awaiting that day.
Last edited by Jamie LeJeune on Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 12:54 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
focuspulling wrote:so even when I perfectly match color temperatures and hue values by number, no dice
You could line up a dozen Alexa Mini's side by side, and set them all to exactly the same tent + tint values, and it's a good bet that the images would not be identical. Every camera needs to be custom white balanced, even if they are same make + model, no matter the manufacturer. So it's not just the Gen 4 versus Gen5 difference there. You'll need to custom white balance each of your cameras.

BMD has a very good auto white balance tool built into their cameras. Just point each camera at a grey card (or even a piece of white office paper in a pinch) and they will match, even though the temp + tint numbers will likely be different.

As for dealing with the different log curves and gamut of Gen 4 versus Gen 5, in post you can set the BRAW metadata to be Gen5 on any clip from any camera that records BRAW.

All of that is agreed, understood, elemental. But you'd be surprised at the extent of disparity (and you didn't see it yourself, and are speculating) -- but the numbers were much too far apart for the issue to be meh. And the main point is, the Pro's monitor color problem amplifies all such disparities and there's no downside to the problem getting fixed. This isn't about defending Blackmagic or not as a company: we're here, and we're all in the cheering section for Blackmagic.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 1:02 am

I am not for (nor against) any particular camera or company.

What I am against is misinformation. And there always seems to be a lot of it anytime a new camera is released.

There is no connection between the color balance of the sensor and the color balance of the LCD display, on any camera.

No one should be relying on any camera LCD to set the white balance of their images. Doesn't matter who makes the camera.

Sure, it's great if my camera LCD is close to D65. But I'd never trust it even if it was a perfectly calibrated reference monitor (and I usually carry a reference monitor on most shoots, never do I use it for setting my color balance). The color temperature of the environment affects color perception. That's why colorists have to work in a neutral environment that requires special neutral gray paint. I white balance off a gray card and check my parade scopes because human eyes + brains are not color accurate instruments.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 1:08 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:I am not for (nor against) any particular camera or company.

What I am against is misinformation. And there always seems to be a lot of it anytime a new camera is released.

There is no connection between the color balance of the sensor and the color balance of the LCD display, on any camera.

No one should be relying on any camera LCD to set the white balance of their images. Doesn't matter who makes the camera.


I am curious if you have one?

I've bought two so far, and I'm not sure I've seen a more "off" LCD screen in my life. It hurts to look at. This is not an issue of slight variation between copies, at least with the two I have seen in person. It's a problem.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 2:00 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:I am not for (nor against) any particular camera or company.

What I am against is misinformation. And there always seems to be a lot of it anytime a new camera is released.

There is no connection between the color balance of the sensor and the color balance of the LCD display, on any camera.

No one should be relying on any camera LCD to set the white balance of their images. Doesn't matter who makes the camera.

Sure, it's great if my camera LCD is close to D65. But I'd never trust it even if it was a perfectly calibrated reference monitor (and I usually carry a reference monitor on most shoots, never do I use it for setting my color balance). The color temperature of the environment affects color perception. That's why colorists have to work in a neutral environment that requires special neutral gray paint. I white balance off a gray card and check my parade scopes because human eyes + brains are not color accurate instruments.

Will respond one last time; you're still picking at the edges in theoretical terms instead of accepting the actual problematic disparity of this precise example. Once again you're reporting what we all know is generally true -- but again, the disparity in this case is too much and can be fixed soon because increased accuracy does no damage ever. Such either-or logic as yours (phrases like "misinformation" and "no one should be relying" and "doesn't matter who") is reminiscent of that good guy/bad guy poison seen today so widely in simplistic politicization. Accept nuance, brother.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 2:30 am

Don't get personal please.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 2:31 am

As Jamie says, most cameras set to the same WB and TINT won't give you the same image. Any brand and any camera.

Most panels aren't very accurate either unless you go to larger monitors that have calibration and are usually five figure sums.

As I've mentioned on other threads, this monitor's PRIMARY purpose is as a touch based user interface. This is the ONLY way to change many of the cameras settings. You literary smear your nose and finger grease all over it.

Of COURSE we all want accurate monitoring. NO we shouldn't have monitor with an obvious issue like a blue tint.

But NONE of the BMD monitors have ever been outstanding for accuracy. Bu they work GREAT at what they're designed to do...a touch screen for the user interface of the camera.

Even monitors that cost more aren't really that much more accurate because the viewing conditions and lack of genuine calibration don't allow it. There's no such thing as a HDR field monitor. Anyone that says they are are only selling you a high brightness / high NIT monitor, not a true HDR monitor.

HDR isn't practical in the field because unless you can be in a space that you can control the ambient viewing conditions, no monitor will be that accurate.

I still use the long discontinued Convergent Design Odyssey 7Q because even though it's not even a true HD panel, it's an OLED and can be calibrated and has the best set of exposure tools of any field monitor I've used. They're practically going up in value on the second hand market. Most DIT's have a few of them.

OLEDs aren't being used in field monitors anymore, but I sure miss them.

If you want to see a miserable monitor, fold out the monitor on the very expensive Alexa Mini EVF sometime and then see how truly woeful they can be.

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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 2:39 am

I don't think it's nuanced nor is it controversial to state that cameras shouldn't be white balanced based on an on camera display ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last edited by Jamie LeJeune on Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 2:39 am

John Brawley wrote:As Jamie says, most cameras set to the same WB and TINT won't give you the same image. Any brand and any camera.

Most panels aren't very accurate either unless you go to larger monitors that have calibration and are usually five figure sums.

As I've mentioned on other threads, this monitor's PRIMARY purpose is as a touch based user interface. This is the ONLY way to change many of the cameras settings. You literary smear your nose and finger grease all over it.

Of COURSE we all want accurate monitoring. NO we shouldn't have monitor with an obvious issue like a blue tint.

But NONE of the BMD monitors have ever been outstanding for accuracy. Bu they work GREAT at what they're designed to do...a touch screen for the user interface of the camera.

Even monitors that cost more aren't really that much more accurate because the viewing conditions and lack of genuine calibration don't allow it. There's no such thing as a HDR field monitor. Anyone that says they are are only selling you a high brightness / high NIT monitor, not a true HDR monitor.

HDR isn't practical in the field because unless you can be in a space that you can control the ambient viewing conditions, no monitor will be that accurate.

I still use the long discontinued Convergent Design Odyssey 7Q because even though it's not even a true HD panel, it's an OLED and can be calibrated and has the best set of exposure tools of any field monitor I've used. They're practically going up in value on the second hand market. Most DIT's have a few of them.

OLEDs aren't being used in field monitors anymore, but I sure miss them.

If you want to see a miserable monitor, fold out the monitor on the very expensive Alexa Mini EVF sometime and then see how truly woeful they can be.

JB

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=135554
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 2:40 am

focuspulling wrote:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=135554


I'm well aware of the thread I've already posted in ?

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 2:59 am

I'll just add that I spent yesterday filming a performance of the Oakland Symphony (EDIT — I should add, it was COVID safe of course, no audience, we had a compliance officer, testing, contract tracing, the works). While I rarely take gigs filming live events like that, I've been color grading a series of concerts for the same director, and he was short a shooter, so I filled in.

I carried my 6K Pocket, 6K Pocket Pro, and 12K URSA Mini Pro. The other cameras also used by the other camera ops were a mix — 4x Sony FS7, a Sony A7siii, a Panasonic S5 (??? didn't even know that had been released, had to look it up, but it records V-log so I'll at least have half a chance to match it in post).

All cameras were white balanced off of a grey card. And we all shot a color chart (plus a Spyder cube) so that I'll be able to match the different images in the grade later.

I operated the 12K URSA Mini Pro (in 6K crop to get more reach out of the lens, worked great) with the two Pocket cameras on locked off shots. Even though the monitor on my 6K Pro is quite a bit cooler than D65, it simply wasn't an issue. The director saw all the camera monitors because he was the one hitting record on the locked off 6K Pocket Pro and then would walk around during the long takes to peek at everyone's LCD displays as a way of monitoring the shots (kind of a super cheapo way to do production, but I didn't plan this shoot) he never once commented on the cooler display. It simply didn't matter.
Last edited by Jamie LeJeune on Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 3:02 am

Hey guys, I was wondering what you thought about this test footage someone posted with the 6k pro:



I tried just turning on the camera and looking through the LCD at 3200 ISO and up, 2.8, and in near dimly lit corners and have a similar effect at certain angles. Is this a defect or something to expect in low lighting? It looks fine during normal lighting but admittedly ever since this blue tint hassle I've been super critical at anything I'm looking at now.

I just wanted to chime in and say although camera displays may vary across units that I had no issues with the 6K screen and its color "accuracy." Seeing such a stark difference between the 6K pro and 6K and a widespread issue among others lends more to the fact that this is a software/hardware issue on BM part rather than just a fluke that users should have to overcome on their end.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 3:03 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:I operated the 12K URSA Mini Pro (in 6K crop to get more reach out of the lens, worked great) with the two Pocket cameras on locked off shots.


Love to hear how you're finding the 12K, but maybe in another thread ;-)

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 3:11 am

I am really liking UMP12K so far. The sheer versatility of it has been great. But yes, that's for another thread :)
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 3:26 am

So in sum, the impressions left here, by recent responses from an aggressive minority refusing to read circumstances carefully, are:
1. Even though other high-nit/HDR displays across the industry (e.g., neighboring rival Atomos) are more color-accurate than the current BMPCC6K Pro, customer interest in bringing it marginally closer to that accuracy -- not perfection, obviously -- via some potentially simple manufacturer fix, cannot be tolerated.
2. Even though Blackmagic aggressively and impressively markets the livestreaming capability of ATEM switchers integrated fully with BMPCCs, in which case live streams quickly require visual confirmation of accurate white balancing from each camera location often distant from the control console, just color grade later (after it's "live"?) and gamble by balancing to a card that (in one specific tiny location) might represent the entire room's lighting color bias.
3. Don't mess with John Brawley.
4. Diversity of opinions is "getting personal," if it's disapproved by certain anointed frequent visitors.

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 4:09 am

focuspulling wrote:So in sum, the impressions left here, by recent responses from an aggressive minority refusing to read circumstances carefully, are:
1. Even though other high-nit/HDR displays across the industry (e.g., neighboring rival Atomos) are more color-accurate than the current BMPCC6K Pro, customer interest in bringing it marginally closer to that accuracy -- not perfection, obviously -- via some potentially simple manufacturer fix, cannot be tolerated.


I don't think anyone is arguing they wouldn't take a better result.

What is a must have for some is a make do for others. I don't think the current situation with the monitors is a permanent problem. What are we...three weeks into this ?

Until the inevitable fix, I think all that's being discussed is ways to work around it.

I also don't think you need to make personal attacks.

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 4:29 am

focuspulling wrote: 2. Even though Blackmagic aggressively and impressively markets the livestreaming capability of ATEM switchers integrated fully with BMPCCs, in which case live streams quickly require visual confirmation of accurate white balancing from each camera location often distant from the control console, just color grade later (after it's "live"?) and gamble by balancing to a card that (in one specific tiny location) might represent the entire room's lighting color bias.
I'm trying to understand this one. How will multiple operators, each looking at a separate camera LCD in different parts of a set, all somehow arrive at the same white balance? Even if each one had a reference grade monitor on front of them, it seems highly unlikely in the uncontrolled lighting of a location shoot that they would all arrive at the same white balance. Best bet would be having the ATEM console operator view their monitor of all the cameras + a parade scope to set the balance of all 4 cameras (since ATEMs can control the white balance settings of connected BMD Pocket cameras). Even if the console op only had a cheap LCD computer monitor or a cheap HD TV screen to work from, those can be reasonably (if not perfectly) calibrated to REC709.

While we are on the subject of LCD color, as it seems BMD is watching this thread, I'd love for the BMD camera LCDs to have the option to display in black + white like the Ursa EVF. It makes seeing colored focus peaking much easier!
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 7:09 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:I am not for (nor against) any particular camera or company.

What I am against is misinformation. And there always seems to be a lot of it anytime a new camera is released.

There is no connection between the color balance of the sensor and the color balance of the LCD display, on any camera.

No one should be relying on any camera LCD to set the white balance of their images. Doesn't matter who makes the camera.

Sure, it's great if my camera LCD is close to D65. But I'd never trust it even if it was a perfectly calibrated reference monitor (and I usually carry a reference monitor on most shoots, never do I use it for setting my color balance). The color temperature of the environment affects color perception. That's why colorists have to work in a neutral environment that requires special neutral gray paint. I white balance off a gray card and check my parade scopes because human eyes + brains are not color accurate instruments.


Agree to a point but the Pocket 6k Pro the monitor is suppose to remove the need of rigging a better calibrated and more accurate external screen. As someone who has Pocket 6k Pro without the blue tint I can claim the monitor is accurate and edges out the need of an Atomos recorder. Lets see how the firmware address the problem first.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 7:29 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:I don't think it's nuanced nor is it controversial to state that cameras shouldn't be white balanced based on an on camera display ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Jamie, I agree but still it is not unreasonable to expect a display monitor should ship with a modicum of accuracy, at least on par with the EVF.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 5:22 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote: Even if each one had a reference grade monitor on front of them, it seems highly unlikely in the uncontrolled lighting of a location shoot that they would all arrive at the same white balance. Best bet would be having the ATEM console operator view their monitor of all the cameras + a parade scope to set the balance of all 4 cameras (since ATEMs can control the white balance settings of connected BMD Pocket cameras). Even if the console op only had a cheap LCD computer monitor or a cheap HD TV screen to work from, those can be reasonably (if not perfectly) calibrated to REC709.


Even if the ATEM monitor isn't that accurate itself, you can still at least give a consistent look to the viewers and remove the possibility of jarring differences.

You can also check your stream with a 2nd computer like a laptop to make sure you're in fact streaming. It's been a pain this past year to watch streams that aren't streaming at all.

The earlier use of FUD was an appropriate acronym for secondary issues cascading from the blue tinted screen.

You can cross reference the auto exposure feature with the Pocket 6K Pro with False Color, but at this point can't cross reference AUTO White Balance (unless I'm missing it?), and people don't seem to trust it. I don't need a way to calibrate the screen as much as I want built in scopes (and a dedicated auto WB button). As long as we're making requests. .
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 7:07 pm

StrongOnline007 wrote:I've bought two so far, and I'm not sure I've seen a more "off" LCD screen in my life. It hurts to look at. This is not an issue of slight variation between copies, at least with the two I have seen in person. It's a problem.

I think there must be some variation between units. When I first heard about the blue tint problem I looked at my monitor and thought there might be a slight green cast but certainly nothing too bad and not that far off my C100 mkii and other camera LCD screens I've used. CVP also confirmed in their testing that there are differences in the LCD between units, some seem very blue others don't seem that bad at all.

I've had to send mine back for a different issue but I am hoping that my replacement will be ok. The guys at CVP (my retailer) gave me the option of replacing it with a different make and model of camera but I honestly couldn't think of anything in this price point I'd rather have, providing I get a workable unit. If I went with a ZCAM for example, I'd probably end up having to record ProRes RAW externally and changing my NLE to FCPX and neither of those seem appealing to me.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 7:18 pm

With all the negativity surrounding the monitor situation I just wanted to share what a revolutionary value proposition I perceive this camera to be. Today I purchased the last piece of the puzzle: a 17-50 RED Pro Zoom for 1500 Euros. Will hopefully receive it on Friday, completing this ready to shoot, light-weight handheld package.

When all is said and done I will have spent less than 4800 Euros (5750 USD) on a seriously professional grade Super35 PL camera that is ready to shoot raw with an image quality good enough for the big screen and one of the best post production workflows of the industry behind it. The package includes 2 256 GB Cfast Cards and 8 3500mah batteries to get me through a whole day of shooting, the Wooden Camera PL mount modification kit, an NP-F charger, the EVF and a shotgun microphone as well as various small accessories. I still remember when simply a camera body of this caliber exceeded 5K easily, requiring another 5-10k to rig it out in order to be able to even start shooting. Scarlet anyone?

I understand the concerns about quality control and reliability. But honestly what Blackmagic has done here is nothing short of mind-boggling. Have already rented the camera on two shooting days, 8 more days and I will break even on the body. All the other accessories with the exception of the EVF and the PL-mount are camera agnostic. So while I am annoyed by the blue tint as much as the next guy here, it's not a deal breaker and I am confident in Blackmagic's ability to provide a fix via firmware as they have announced. Unlike many other manufacturers in this space they have mostly come through on firmware updates and in some cases added features that were not even initially advertised. So let's cut them some slack here, enjoy our cameras and go out shooting.
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StrongOnline007

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 7:31 pm

Matthew_Lawrence wrote:
StrongOnline007 wrote:I've bought two so far, and I'm not sure I've seen a more "off" LCD screen in my life. It hurts to look at. This is not an issue of slight variation between copies, at least with the two I have seen in person. It's a problem.

I think there must be some variation between units. When I first heard about the blue tint problem I looked at my monitor and thought there might be a slight green cast but certainly nothing too bad and not that far off my C100 mkii and other camera LCD screens I've used. CVP also confirmed in their testing that there are differences in the LCD between units, some seem very blue others don't seem that bad at all.


Yeah, I could've phrased my comment better. Based on your feedback and others, it does seem there are some units that are "OK," but the units with the blue screen are not simply a minor variation on "OK" but are wildly off.

It's just really awful to film with. I'm still deciding whether or not to return my second copy (already returned the first), and leaning towards it because I dislike using it. I'm still using my 4K for everything simply because I actually trust it.

I've been the biggest fan of Blackmagic and have sold a bunch of friends on the 4K and 6K, but if they're unable to have empathy for and respond effectively to the massive amount of customers who spent $2,500 on a new camera only to receive a defective product, I'll probably start to look elsewhere.
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Matthew_Lawrence

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 10:22 pm

StrongOnline007 wrote:Based on your feedback and others, it does seem there are some units that are "OK," but the units with the blue screen are not simply a minor variation on "OK" but are wildly off.

It's just really awful to film with.

Yeah, I can understand what you mean. If my replacement unit has a blue tint that is as bad as in the thumbnails of some of those YouTube videos then I'm not sure I would enjoy using it or find it very practical with the type of shooting I do. My first unit definitely wasn't that bad in terms of the LCD.

As others have said, hopefully the firmware update will fix the units that do have very blue LCDs. And to reiterate what I said before, to make sure I don't come across as sounding too negative, from my point of view this is still the most appealing camera at this price point and I do appreciate what Blackmagic are doing here.
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JMosley

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 10:55 pm

I’m set to finally receive my Pocket 6K Pro very soon, any things to look out for to make sure it functionally correctly? Also any tips on ways I can stage a setup to test the latitude of the camera?
Last edited by JMosley on Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ozmorphasis

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 11:40 pm

Wow. I had read this thread before my unit arrived today and was expecting the monitor to be a bit off. Holy cow. It's not a bit off. It's WAY off in my case.

I'm really disappointed, and no this doesn't need to turn into BM bashing. They owe me nothing and I chose to pre-order rather than waiting to read a lot of user experiences before ordering, AND I try to order from places that will let me return cameras, no question asked.

All that said, and with total respect due to JB, I disagree with the idea that this monitor is primarily just for controlling the camera. I know about 9 people who have ordered this camera. Every single one of them, me included, was looking forward to skipping on the external monitor mounted on top after purchasing this camera. In fact, you learn where the buttons are on the menus so quickly (especially with BM's brilliant large button UI), so I never needed 1500 nits for the control of the camera. The 1500 nits are so that I can see what I am shooting without a monitor, and the tilting is so that I don't have to hold the camera in front of my face...to see what I am shooting.

Yes, it's ridiculous to expect color accuracy from built in monitors, but what just arrived is in a totally different universe from my other BM cameras. Those others are also not accurate, but this is another level.

The real bummer is that because the fix/improvement isn't yet clear, it puts those who just received it in the position that we have to decide whether or not to return it during the returnable window, or wait and risk the fix not being good enough. Again, that's really part of the pre-order experience, but disappointing nonetheless.

There is a lot of philosophical debate happening in this thread about what to expect from a monitor.

I'll just say it again, this stands alone in the BM world and as compared to any of my other cameras or really any other camera I can think of that has been recently released. It's not off. It's WAY off. Or at least my copy is.

Lastly, like some others have said, this camera is a total game changer in terms of features combined into one body at this price point. I'm really hoping for a fix to be announced soon because I literally love pretty much everything about this camera otherwise.
Last edited by ozmorphasis on Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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ozmorphasis

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 11:46 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:I'll just add that I spent yesterday filming a performance of the Oakland Symphony (EDIT — I should add, it was COVID safe of course, no audience, we had a compliance officer, testing, contract tracing, the works). While I rarely take gigs filming live events like that, I've been color grading a series of concerts for the same director, and he was short a shooter, so I filled in.

I carried my 6K Pocket, 6K Pocket Pro, and 12K URSA Mini Pro. The other cameras also used by the other camera ops were a mix — 4x Sony FS7, a Sony A7siii, a Panasonic S5 (??? didn't even know that had been released, had to look it up, but it records V-log so I'll at least have half a chance to match it in post).

All cameras were white balanced off of a grey card. And we all shot a color chart (plus a Spyder cube) so that I'll be able to match the different images in the grade later.

I operated the 12K URSA Mini Pro (in 6K crop to get more reach out of the lens, worked great) with the two Pocket cameras on locked off shots. Even though the monitor on my 6K Pro is quite a bit cooler than D65, it simply wasn't an issue. The director saw all the camera monitors because he was the one hitting record on the locked off 6K Pocket Pro and then would walk around during the long takes to peek at everyone's LCD displays as a way of monitoring the shots (kind of a super cheapo way to do production, but I didn't plan this shoot) he never once commented on the cooler display. It simply didn't matter.


BTW, I was there capturing Sacramento Philharmonic right before you guys at the same venue!
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 12:46 am

IMG_0545.jpg
Pocket 6K Pro - Flip out screen with Color Checker Screen Protector
IMG_0545.jpg (814.23 KiB) Viewed 2298 times


If Blackmagic or a 3rd Party, like X-Rite, made a "Color Checker Pocket 6K Pro Screen Protector" I would buy it. My Color Checker actually fits over top of the screen pretty well.

I've been taping my color checker to the back of the camera with gaffer tape before I put it away in the soft bag.

How many people are actually using a gray card to balance the images in camera?

On my 6K Pro, I have peaking set to Function 1, then False Color to Function 2. So I can cross reference quickly after pressing the auto focus or aperture buttons.

If I could swap the High Frame Rate button to an AUTO WB button I would do that too. If the camera had an RGB parade I would map that to Function 3.
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rick.lang

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 1:56 am

JMosley wrote:I’m set to finally receive my Pocket 6K Pro very soon, any things to look out for to make sure it functionally correctly? Also any tips on ways I can stage a setup to test the dynamic range for highlight recovery/shadow raising?
Some of the reviewers would have dynamic range tests; look at NewsShooter or CineD or 4KShooters etc. a proper test needs a controlled test using expensive gear which some of the reviewers utilize.

Highlight recovery comes into play using DaVinci Resolve, so you can toggle it Off or On to see if it matters. I have it On.

Shadow raising can occur in Resolve but another option on the BMPCC4K and BMPCC6K is the use of the higher ISO 3200 range. Generally much better image results at ISO 1250 than shooting at ISO 1000! However it’s not miraculous if your scene is under lit significantly. In that case you would need to add noise reduction.

Just try so many different options to learn how your new camera responds.
Rick Lang
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Paul Jonathan

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 8:15 am

Ryan Earl wrote: If Blackmagic or a 3rd Party, like X-Rite, made a "Color Checker Pocket 6K Pro Screen Protector" I would buy it. My Color Checker actually fits over top of the screen pretty well.


That's a great idea and something I would buy in a heartbeat!
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Ryan Earl

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 12:59 pm

Another work around for white balance, without buying a Sekonic C-800-U, that I don't think was mentioned so far in this thread is ExpoDisc. I've been using one with DSLRs since at least 2004 (?) starting with the Nikon D70s. It's especially helpful if you are using stills lenses.

https://www.expodisc.com/pages/about-ex ... nce-filter

Then as the iPhone's have improved I use the newest iPhone SE and the Cine Meter II app, as others here have mentioned too. I like it because it will give one reading in the viewfinder, (the color balance and tint that the iPhone has decided to use) and the calibrated or uncalibrated.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/cine-meter-ii/id846918884

I think when I get a new camera I tend to shoot around rather than make immediate controlled tests and the ExpoDisc and Cine Meter II App are with me as well as the Color Checker. While I've attempted to mount more "cine" lenses on the camera I'm also really enjoying going out and using it with the Canon 18-55 kit lens with IS ($90 on eBay).

With the Pocket 6K I was pocketing a Tiffen filter pouch, with 4 slots for Hoya Screw in ND and the ExpoDisc. Now I'm just pocketing the Color Checker and ExpoDisc and hand holding the camera with an EF lens.
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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 2:44 pm

It's the simple little things that make a big difference, like framing the shot with the evf, then going back to the screen, tilting it to my liking, quickly adjusting settings with gloves on, taking the shot and moving on. Not a single wire dangling anywhere. Nothing extra.

I was due for an update and C300MK3 + C70 was an option that I tested, but it is hard to move away from BM footage. 2x P6KPro won this round.

I just spend a long morning in -10C, bluebird winter day in a pine forest hunting for parallax and flares. Swiping more brightness to the screen in direct sunlight felt good. Simple things. Intuitive, beautiful. Batteries seem to last much longer than on P4K. Single battery gave enough juice for about a 2 hour shoot with evf. I turned the camera on/off every once in a while.

A quick tour in Resolve at our grading suite was more than a cherry on top. I feared things can't be this simple and good. The footage is beautiful. Enough so that good ol' UM46K and P4K just retired. Thanks Blackmagic, you're quite a unique company. Enabling us makers to carry on doing what we love and making it easier to love what we're doing.
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rick.lang

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 3:35 pm

Jukka Tallinen wrote:... I feared things can't be this simple and good. The footage is beautiful. Enough so that good ol' UM46K and P4K just retired...


“Resistance is futile.”
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ozmorphasis

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 5:08 pm

Gotta say. The EVF is really fantastic. Wish the monitor had the same colors, but that point has already been beaten to death in this thread.

The EVF is compact, but doesn't feel that way when you look through it. It feels luxurious and on par with many high end EVF's. Really nice.
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rick.lang

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 8:13 pm

Excellent feedback. If only there’s a way to offer this product to other existing cameras or something modular for new cameras.
Rick Lang
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Paul Jonathan

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 8:40 pm

Jukka Tallinen wrote:It's the simple little things that make a big difference, like framing the shot with the evf, then going back to the screen, tilting it to my liking, quickly adjusting settings with gloves on, taking the shot and moving on. Not a single wire dangling anywhere. Nothing extra.

Thanks Blackmagic, you're quite a unique company. Enabling us makers to carry on doing what we love and making it easier to love what we're doing.


Yesssss. Beautifully said. The simplicity and maturity of this camera is so inspiring. Like all good tools, it doesn't get in the way and instead it opens up room for creativity.
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Ian Henderson

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostFri Mar 19, 2021 5:23 pm

My backordered EVF just arrived. There’s a review on YouTube saying it’s unusable but I don’t know what they were smoking. I think it’s really great. Decent size, sharp enough and feels great. Compared to a small mirrorless with a fixed EVF on the back this is a revelation, and handles almost like a medium format camera. In my tests so far focus was pin sharp. Very, very happy.

All round this camera is a massive update - I really wouldn’t buy an original 4K or 6K now.

BTW my EVF also arrived with the left eyecup missing - luckily I’m right eye biased.
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Paul Jonathan

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostFri Mar 19, 2021 6:05 pm

Ian Henderson wrote:BTW my EVF also arrived with the left eyecup missing - luckily I’m right eye biased.


Glad to see you're liking the EVF as well but how strange that they also left out an eye cup with your EVF. Maybe someone at the factory had a bad day.. My resellers advised me to reach out to Blackmagic Support as everything was factory sealed (so the eye cup must have been forgotten at the factory), but I have yet to receive a response. Hopefully they can just mail the missing eye cups to us.
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Lee Mackreath

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostFri Mar 19, 2021 6:07 pm

I thought I was missing an eye cup too but realised the 4th one was actually already on the evf...


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Lee Mackreath

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostFri Mar 19, 2021 6:08 pm

Also like the evf.. what you see seems a bit far away but very usable


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Paul Jonathan

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostFri Mar 19, 2021 6:15 pm

Lee Mackreath wrote:I thought I was missing an eye cup too but realised the 4th one was actually already on the evf...


Got confused about that as well in the beginning - but alas only two small eyecups (one on the EVF) and one left eye. Right one is missing.

Lee Mackreath wrote:Also like the evf.. what you see seems a bit far away but very usable


How are you finding the black levels? I was a bit surprised because I thought with OLED blacks would be deeper, but they are somewhat milky on mine. Like totally usable, I just expected differently.
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Ian Henderson

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostTue Mar 23, 2021 1:21 pm

My right eyecup also missing in the package.
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Paul Jonathan

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostFri Apr 02, 2021 11:45 am

Finally got a reply from Blackmagic acknowledging that some eye cups were missing from EVFs sent out and that they will send a replacement. No info on when though...

Btw I finally found a camera cube that fits this camera well without being too huge. The WANDRD Essential DEEP cube is tall enough for the 6K Pro with the EVF installed and still fits in my backpack. Tried quite a few different camera cubes that all didn't fit or were too huge, so perhaps someone finds this info helpful.

Any other accessories that people have picked up for this camera?
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OscarHealey1999

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Re: Pocket 6K Pro

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 7:28 pm

I am having an issue with my LCD monitor on my camera. The screen goes dark (Yet lit) with no information, it is just blank. Then when I tap the camera on the right side or turn it so it looks toward the ceiling, the screen will come back on. When I move the camera to be horizontal again, the screen glitches and turns blank. I also have weird lines going across the screen when in a darker space almost like a dim thick light beam through the image in a ladder type pattern! And 2 dead pixels from the output of the sensor, not the screen!

I am not too happy with all this, but regardless, the camera is absolutely amazing when it was working and I am hoping to get a replacement that has no problems at all! I am due to shoot a Feature Length film on this camera very soon and this is pretty much the only set-back at the moment.

If anyone has any ideas of how to help, that would be amazing! Otherwise I am going to try and send it back for a new unit!

Oscar
Director @ X29 Productions Ltd.
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