The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

Okay, it's 2021... Large-format cinematography is becoming a very sought-after thing. 8/10 TV shows up for awards last year were shot on full-frame cameras like the Venice, or Arri LF, or RED's LF cameras..could we expect a full-frame sensor?

"Betrayal" is too strong a word, but one factor worth considering is the surprising lack of full-frame lenses that are not active-mount/focus-by-wire given the market dominance of Sony E-mount, for example.

Yes, there are some manual cinema primes that can cover a full-frame sensor, including budget models from the like of Rokinon, and outrageously expensive professional models at five- and six-figure pricing -- but little in-between.

I like the idea of active-mount to accommodate remote control of lens parameters, etc., but the Achille's heel is that Blackmagic demonstrably just doesn't want to/cannot invest in lens research to ensure compatibility. Thus many if not most active EF lenses, for example, are not fully compatible with Blackmagic cameras so far (e.g., especially third-party manufacturers like Tamron). Sometimes iris doesn't work, sometimes I.S. doesn't work, sometimes auto-focus doesn't work, in varying combinations.

All my Canon EF lenses work, including EF-S. I don't have any 3rd party lenses, whoops.. check that, I have one 3rd party, a Sigma 50mm prime but that too works. You might have something wrong. OR maybe using an adapter?

Getting off topic a bit here already don't you think? FWIW I own two sets of Zeiss manual prime lenses and I love them and they work on almost any camera.

I can't help but to see some friendly irony in the username focuspulling and yet they want auto-lenses?

I can't help but to see some friendly irony in the username focuspulling and yet they want auto-lenses?

Yes, I want maximum versatility: the capability to choose classes of lenses for particular purposes (e.g., running on a gimbal when an active mount is critical, then migrating to sticks during the same shoot where manual lenses are appropriate). Why do people think so black-and-white these days? We should demand everything, as best as possible. Compromises everywhere, excuses nowhere.

And to reiterate: most of the Zeiss manual primes are crop; Canon EF lenses are outnumbered by non-Canon EF lenses.

Getting off topic a bit here already don't you think? FWIW I own two sets of Zeiss manual prime lenses and I love them and they work on almost any camera.

The question was asked of a presumptive BMD straw man if full frame was ever coming while slamming the door shut of dissent from the forum community. It's why I stopped reading the preamble after the second paragraph. I am certain there was nothing in there BMD doesn't already know. The subject line never stood a chance of staying on-point after the scattering rant, so I would not worry about it now.

First - I have nothing against wanting a LF camera, but I'd like to address some of your bold claims here:

I would say something that I believe is very much overlooked, is that a very large percentage of operators who own or work with the p4k use a speed booster, gaining additional exposure and giving the image a closer 'feel' to a larger format with greater depth of field and a smaller crop of 1.2. This isn't a minority - it's the majority of users.

BMD has likely sold around over 100.000 PCC4k. Are you honestly telling us here that the majority of those owners have bought a speedbooster? Who is that majority and how do you get the numbers?

That means something, I think it says a lot about what DPs want in 2021, and what people want from a camera from BM.

I think it is safe to say "it says a lot about what SOME DPs want in 2021, and what some people want from a camera from BM.

So Blackmagic is facing a very large share of DPs and Editors who desire to work in this format which is quickly becoming the new standard

No. There are a few (compared to the majority of customers) who desire to work in this format.
And becoming "the new" standard?
Has there been a consortium deciding for all of us what's the new standard sensor size?
Or is this just your wishful thinking?

and basically being okay with telling those people they don't care if they lose them. Which hurts.

They have told nothing those people. That all just happens in your imagination because they haven't made "the" camera yet you want so badly.

Because After spending years using their software and backing their ideas behind their camera line and philosophy of bringing democracy to filmmaking by attempting to take away the financial barrier that often prevents artists from expressing themselves in their truest senses, it feels like a betrayal.

So they now owe you a LF camera? Because you were able to get a great camera and software for much less in the past then before that makes them obligated to make exactly what "you" want? Are you sure about that?

Oh and true artists need LF sensors to express themselves in their truest sense...
Can't be done with S35 sensors; just not possible...

You're saying 'work in m43 or S35 or get out'. And that's unfair.

That is just your projection. BMD has not said anything.

Larger sensors are harder to make, you get a smaller yield which makes it more expensive. That even the Kinefinity version is so expensive should tell you something.

So I would not expect a LF camera from BMD in the immediate near future but it will be done eventually when it becomes economically meaningful for them.

Of course I could be totally wrong about this and Grant will surprise us next year with a 18k LF camera. But I am quite sure it won't be from the pocket line then.

Well said Robert.

Just gonna add this here:
http://www.yedlin.net/NerdyFilmTechStuff/LargeFormatMisconceptions.html

The odd thing is, for 100+ years cinematographers were preoccupied with novel ways to soften images and experiments in increasing depth of field. Now, it's apparently the reverse. There's never too much resolution (or too much detail) or too little in focus.

That, or this is one very small and peculiar market....

Once again all of you have nothing to add here in what was the actual question in the post and maybe you didn't see the part where I wasn't looking for anyone's opinion on what sensors I want to use?

[u]

That is just your projection. BMD has not said anything.

Larger sensors are harder to make, you get a smaller yield which makes it more expensive. That even the Kinefinity version is so expensive should tell you something.

[/u]


Wrong. Blackmagic has said a lot by choosing to NOT support ProRes RAW! What are people who shoot in that format going to do about grading in resolve? They're going to use something else!

devinpickering wrote:
Because After spending years using their software and backing their ideas behind their camera line and philosophy of bringing democracy to filmmaking by attempting to take away the financial barrier that often prevents artists from expressing themselves in their truest senses, it feels like a betrayal.

So they now owe you a LF camera? Because you were able to get a great camera and software for much less in the past then before that makes them obligated to make exactly what "you" want? Are you sure about that?

Oh and true artists need LF sensors to express themselves in their truest sense...
Can't be done with S35 sensors; just not possible...

No. Wrong again. By not supporting ProRes RAW - BM is going against what they stand for. Anyone shooting in ProRes Raw will have to use another editing platform and color platform. Thereby, leaving a bunch of people in the dust.

Jamie, that’s pretty much the final word from a cinematographer renowned for truth in advertising so to speak. However as you respect, the OP can certainly ask if BMD will ever provide a camera and an LF mount that supports a larger sensor than Super 35 to which we know from experience “only BMD knows and they’re not saying until they actually do it.” We’ve had many threads request alternate mounts including speculation on a short FFD BMD mount that can be adapted to a variety of mounts.

So it might happen but it seems to be a very low priority for BMD and we understand why. BMD priorities seem to be image quality and affordability. And there we have a great deal of choices within the realm of Super 35 and smaller sensors. Lens and adapter manufacturers including Metabones have done well giving us the tools Steve Yeldin describes to do the job we need. In summary, we’d “never say never” but “don’t hold your breath.”

... Anyone shooting in ProRes Raw will have to use another editing platform and color platform. Thereby, leaving a bunch of people in the dust.

As far as I know, someone capturing in ProRes raw just can’t currently use Resolve to edit in ProRes raw. ProRes raw editors (I’m thinking Apple Final Cut) are likely able to continue to use Resolve for colouring with added workflow.

Something that isn't mentioned too often is that the 12k sensor is larger than the standard super 35mm (~1.3 vs 1.6). I find that larger size does add to the unique and 3d look of the 12k.

Yes, you’re right. I’m wrong to consider that Super 35 as it’s between APS-H Super 35. 12288x0.0022mm = 27.034mm.

Interesting the 12K 1.33x anamorphic crop is exactly the same horizontal width as the 4.6K sensor open gate: 11520x0.0022mm = 25.344mm. Now when you desqueeze that 1.33x image the apparent sensor appears to be 33.708 so that ‘crop’ is 1.068x. Now that’s one way to be very close to matching the ‘full frame’ view. I wonder if the OP would consider that as an option using the UMP12K and a 1.33x anamorphic lens (or even the open gate of the UM4.6K family with a 1.33x-65 SLR Magic Anamorphot adapter).

If you shoot on the UMP12K with a 1.33x anamorphic lens, then you match the OP’s desired full frame view.

.

Something that isn't mentioned too often is that the 12k sensor is larger than the standard super 35mm (~1.3 vs 1.6). I find that larger size does add to the unique and 3d look of the 12k.

Please forgive me if I've got this all wrong, but I can't seem to match those numbers when I calculate it.

According to the specs BMD has listed for the G2 and 12K, they are pretty similar in size, just 16x9 vs 17x9

UMP G2 sensor is 25.34mm x 14.25mm = 29.07mm diagonal
UMP 12K sensor is 27.03mm x 14.25mm = 30.56mm diagonal

Relative to a 43.26mm diagonal full frame sensor, the G2 "crop factor" works out to 1.49 and the 12K sensor "crop factor" is nearly the same at 1.42

How were the 1.3 and the 1.6 calculated?

.

Jamie, you’re full frame image circle is based on the 3:2 aspect ratio of 36x24mm for 135 film. If you normalize the film to match the 16:9 ratio so both shoot the identical relevant aspect ratio, you’ll get a different value. If both sensors are the same aspect ratio, you can just look at comparing the horizontal dimension. 12288x0.0022 = 27.0336mm. That’s a crop of 36/27.034 = 1.332x.

With full frame 1.33x anamorphics, then the apparent sensor of the UMP12K is about 35.96mm ergo matching the 135 film horizontal angle of view.

I can't afford to use anamorphic lenses, I don't know anyone personally who can. I own what most operators own, which are stills lenses that are being used to make movies with. In my case I own a few sets of Manual lenses, a zeiss set, a nikkor set, a leica set. Those are my tools.

That, or this is one very small and peculiar market....

Wrong! 8/10 TV Shows that are up for awards last year are all filmed in large format cameras. 8/10 is the majority.

Wrong! 8/10 TV Shows that are up for awards last year are all filmed in large format cameras. 8/10 is the majority.

Devin, can you clarify the sensor diagonal in mm you are defining as large format? 65mm? 42mm?

Me too, Devin. My SLR Magic APO primes have 82mm front threads. Then I screw in the SLR Magic 1.33x-65 Anamorphot adapter that works with focal lengths 30mm and higher. So that’s my budget anamorphic setup. Problem is when racking focus, you need to focus both the adapter and the taking lens. That is solved using a PD Movie that controls both lenses synchronously (after a simple calibration) from one thumb controller. Still cheaper in total than a single anamorphic lens although the single lens is easier to focus. Just an option to get to full frame equivalent angle of view on a BMD sensor.

I use that setup on the UM4.6K and the BMPCC4K. On the BMPCC4K, the apparent angle of view matches the UM4.6K shooting with spherical lenses with a Super 35 crop.

No. There are a few (compared to the majority of customers) who desire to work in this format.
And becoming "the new" standard?
Has there been a consortium deciding for all of us what's the new standard sensor size?
Or is this just your wishful thinking?[quote][/quote]


No it's becoming the new stabndard becuase a lot of movies and TV shows are being shot in this format now. 8/10 TV shows up for awards shot in LF last year.

That, or this is one very small and peculiar market....

Wrong! 8/10 TV Shows that are up for awards last year are all filmed in large format cameras. 8/10 is the majority.

I can't answer for decisions at HBO or the networks. What's puzzling is *this* market -- the preoccupation with FF among people who can't afford the industry standards, and who [evidently] lack industrial production resources at that level. What do they, meaning people looking for cameras at bargain prices, expect of FF? Without high level production, what is FF supposed to accomplish that, say, S35 (or S16mm, for that matter) won't? Even with substantial production resources, what is FF supposed to accomplish? The myth of large formats....?

As for the 8 out of 10 thing, I bothered to check. Excluding series nominated for acting alone, I counted 7 out of 17 on FF among Emmy nominations in 2020. Sony Venice, a few Alexa LFs. There's also an Alexa 65, way bigger than FF, and Red Helium, which is smaller. And 35mm. So a pretty mixed bag.

Jamie, you’re full frame image circle is based on the 3:2 aspect ratio of 36x24mm for 135 film. If you normalize the film to match the 16:9 ratio so both shoot the identical relevant aspect ratio, you’ll get a different value. If both sensors are the same aspect ratio, you can just look at comparing the horizontal dimension. 12288x0.0022 = 27.0336mm. That’s a crop of 36/27.034 = 1.332x.

With full frame 1.33x anamorphics, then the apparent sensor of the UMP12K is about 35.96mm ergo matching the 135 film horizontal angle of view.

Thanks Rick.

That still leaves the question - From what sensor was a value of 1.6 derived? If the horizontal dimension is the point of comparison in the calculation, the G2 is 1.43 relative to the 1.34 of the 12K. I don't see how that's divergent enough to result in any meaningful difference in the angle of view between the two cameras, beyond the obvious framing difference between 16x9 vs 17x9. And if, as you say, aspect ratio should be kept the same in the calculation, then once the 12K sensor is cropped to 16x9, it is identical to the G2 calculation at 1.43.

While the sensor tech is different in the 12K, I don't see anything particularly unique about the sensor size itself that is meaningfully different from any other s35 camera ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hey, Jamie and Devin, I need to correct a previous post I made if you would be delivering a standard widescreen that has an aspect ratio of about 2.39:1. I’m correct you can get to ‘full frame’ but not if you want a standard widescreen like 4096x1716.

The UMP12K has an open gate of 17:9, but my thoughts were it was 16:9. So if you were going to shoot with a 1.33x anamorphic, you would start with the 12K 16:9 window which is 11520x6480.

Therefore the horizontal dimension would only be 11520x0.0022 = 25.344mm. That’s the identical width in millimeters as the UM4.6K and you won’t get to full frame as the apparent sensor size would have a horizontal dimension of about 33.708mm desqueezed 1.33x, a crop of 1.068x. Close but not perfect.

Apologies for falling asleep at the wheel while driving.

All good Rick. I'd say that 1.068 is close enough ; )

Once again all of you have nothing to add here in what was the actual question in the post and maybe you didn't see the part where I wasn't looking for anyone's opinion on what sensors I want to use?

So all your arguments that I have read leads to just basically rants towards "I want a bargain Full Frame camera" and your asking BMD to produce one. Your rants have no basis at all and the stats about the number of DOP wanting FF you have provided and FF being a standard are made from your imagination. Since you didn't care for the opinion of the forum, well why are you asking here? You should call BMD. All so likely if you do, they'll probably answer your question like I will right now - since that is what you want, an answer to "the actual question in this post". Here it is. No, it is not coming anytime soon. Cheers!

Devin, if you do decide to try the SLR Magic 1.33x-65 Anamorphot, it’s on sale in B&H Photo at a price if $799. That might be $1,000 less than I paid years ago.

Blackmagic has no Large Format cameras available to choose from. And BM Raw as I originally believed was supposed to be an open format design is only accepted by Nikon, which I hate to say, isn't exactly known for their dedication to cinematography, all respect to Nikon as a photgraphy company.

I don’t think you’re really talking with a lot of knowledge my friend.

For starters Canon, Panasonic and Sigma have all announced support for Blackmagic RAW.

LF....

Large sensors are really expensive to do well.

I’m sure once they can be done affordably well, then BMD will be sure to do a LF camera.

I bet you won’t be happy with it it’s PL though? I’m guessing you want to “adapt” other lenses....?

If so which mount would you propose ? Because other than EF mount there aren’t really many options.

JB

Unless you have interchangeable mounts.

Unless you have interchangeable mounts.

With what mounts ?

That’s what the G2 has right now. PL and EF.

JB

Unless you have interchangeable mounts.

With what mounts ?

That’s what the G2 has right now. PL and EF.

JB

I'm thinking of future tech developments. Maybe even far as replacing the module in front of the sensor as an option,

If so which mount would you propose ? Because other than EF mount there aren’t really many options.

JB

John,
Just curious. What’s the history of EF mount support by third parties? Was it all reverse engineering? Or was Canon licensing for a while? Is reverse engineering of, say, RF mount out of the question either technically or legally?

I keep hoping BMD will partner with the new Olympus on cine-versions of their MFT lenses and maybe a new mount.

Thanks.
Steve




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

If so which mount would you propose ? Because other than EF mount there aren’t really many options.

JB

John,
Just curious. What’s the history of EF mount support by third parties? Was it all reverse engineering? Or was Canon licensing for a while? Is reverse engineering of, say, RF mount out of the question either technically or legally?

I keep hoping BMD will partner with the new Olympus on cine-versions of their MFT lenses and maybe a new mount.

Thanks.
Steve

Canon have NEVER supported third party cameras using EF mount ever.

Those that have done it have been doing it out of patent / copyright. EF-S for example is a much newer mount that's the same EF protocols, but you'll notice no-one says they support EF-S officially because its still protected in theory. (introduced in mid 2000's)

This is why so many that deal with EF have issues. Think of the speed boosters viltrox etc. There's always threads about lenses not being supported.

That's because everything has been reverse engineered. So they can be made, just not with support. When the patent is still valid, you need to also have permission, which Canon aren't in the habit of doing. Nor are Sony for that matter with E mount.

I think patents are generally 20 years, so it will be years before RF mount is in the same position as EF mount (I think that's the timeline) and it then requires someone to reverse engineer the comms protocols as well.

I wish Olympus would do a pure CINE version of lenses. I talked to them a lot about doing this and the PRO series primes was the closest they got. Same size, weight, same stops and manual focus hard stops on AF lenses.

Olympus is still in transition, and the signs are still promising. They are after all, an optics company first before anything else.

I'm sure BMD could partner with an optics company like Olympus and do BMD branded lenses too, maybe for their own mount. But they tend to want to be OPEN SOURCE. EF when they introduced their first camera was by far the most prolific mount and it was the height of the 5D mk2 movement.

Much more likely is that Leica will do an L mount deal with BMD (and maybe swap for BRAW) and future cameras will go towards that if they aren't PL. I just wish they also did an LPL mount on the 12K. It's not possible to modify unfortunately. I already tried

JB

"Betrayal"?!

Dude...buy a Sony and do your 'art', or did they betray you too?

There are so many full frame options these days with raw output capabilities. ZCAM, Sony A7SIII, FX6, FX3, S1H, Sigma FP... I remember putting Magic Lantern (risking a brick) on my 5D Mark II trying to get raw.

Lost an entire shoot one time because a CF card got corrupted These days, you can just get a Ninja V and record to ProRes Raw or Cinema DNG... And the Sony's have industry leading autofocus to boot.

I'm sure since BM has their own sensor now, they can cut it to any size. I think making custom speedboosters would be good enough though. Do you really want a full frame sensor, or just the a full frame field pov? Ask yourself what the difference is between 25mm m43 and 50mm ff...

Ask yourself what the difference is between 25mm m43 and 50mm ff...

Two stops.

Good Luck

Ask yourself what the difference is between 25mm m43 and 50mm ff...

Two stops.

Good Luck

:lol: anybody know the best Sony forums? I’m waiting on my camera and still coming here out of habit... 8 years is a hard habit to break.

"Betrayal"?!

Dude...buy a Sony and do your 'art', or did they betray you too?

How's about you chill out? I'm just talking about what an LF camera from bm would look like. No need for an attack sir.

Blackmagic has no Large Format cameras available to choose from. And BM Raw as I originally believed was supposed to be an open format design is only accepted by Nikon, which I hate to say, isn't exactly known for their dedication to cinematography, all respect to Nikon as a photgraphy company.

I don’t think you’re really talking with a lot of knowledge my friend.

For starters Canon, Panasonic and Sigma have all announced support for Blackmagic RAW.

LF....

Large sensors are really expensive to do well.

I’m sure once they can be done affordably well, then BMD will be sure to do a LF camera.

I bet you won’t be happy with it it’s PL though? I’m guessing you want to “adapt” other lenses....?

If so which mount would you propose ? Because other than EF mount there aren’t really many options.

JB

Honestly, that's sort of insulting a little bit how you put it there which is unnecessary. But more to my point - what does support for bm raw mean to what I'm talking about exactly? I'm more than well aware of what options are out there, my friend, I'm simply talking about what the possibility of a blackmagic LF camera would be. I'm not here to like, argue about which lens mount I'm thinking about using either. PL would be nice too. But again, I'm not here to just argue for the sake of arguing. I"m just trying to discuss ideas. And again, so what you're saying is that developing the 12K sensor was cheap? and developing a LF sensor would be impossible? why? lol I don't get it by alright. there's plenty of demand, plenty.

there's plenty of demand, plenty.

Besides still photographers which makes a lot of sense to want FF sensors, where is the demand for cinematography and for a BM LF? Sony's FF cams are on demand because they are great low light cameras. ZCam, well that's not going anywhere. RED Komodo, I got one and besides its box form factor that I like and other features, the FF sensor is the least of them and I can do just well with a BMPCC 6K/6K Pro S35. So, I kind of wonder, where is the demand for a budget conscious FF cine cam? I'm assuming the OP does not have the big production budget to splurged on otherwise they won't be on this forum.

there's plenty of demand, plenty.

Besides still photographers which makes a lot of sense to want FF sensors, where is the demand for cinematography and for a BM LF? Sony's FF cams are on demand because they are great low light cameras. ZCam, well that's not going anywhere. RED Komodo, I got one and besides its box form factor that I like and other features, the FF sensor is the least of them and I can do just well with a BMPCC 6K/6K Pro S35. So, I kind of wonder, where is the demand for a budget conscious FF cine cam? I'm assuming the OP does not have the big production budget to splurged on otherwise they won't be on this forum.

Wait? Komodo is Full Frame Sensor? I'm pretty sure it is Super 35mm and the Raptor is the Full Frame/VistaVision sensor.

Yeah Komodo is the same sensor size as the UMP12K.
Komodo: 27.03 x 14.26 mm
UMP12K 27.03 x 14.25 mm

there's plenty of demand, plenty.

Besides still photographers which makes a lot of sense to want FF sensors, where is the demand for cinematography and for a BM LF? Sony's FF cams are on demand because they are great low light cameras. ZCam, well that's not going anywhere. RED Komodo, I got one and besides its box form factor that I like and other features, the FF sensor is the least of them and I can do just well with a BMPCC 6K/6K Pro S35. So, I kind of wonder, where is the demand for a budget conscious FF cine cam? I'm assuming the OP does not have the big production budget to splurged on otherwise they won't be on this forum.

Wait? Komodo is Full Frame Sensor? I'm pretty sure it is Super 35mm and the Raptor is the Full Frame/VistaVision sensor.

My bad Tim. It is S35. I mixed up global shutter with FF in my head when I post. Please disregard that part.

Yeah Komodo is the same sensor size as the UMP12K.
Komodo: 27.03 x 14.26 mm
UMP12K 27.03 x 14.25 mm

That’s correct. It is also bigger than the P6K Pro.
p6K pro: 23.10 x 12.99 mm
So to say the least S35 sensors comes in different sizes depending on manufacturers.