The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

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John Brawley

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 27, 2022 3:57 pm

devinpickering wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
Large sensors are really expensive to do well.

I’m sure once they can be done affordably well, then BMD will be sure to do a LF camera.



Honestly, that's sort of insulting a little bit how you put it there which is unnecessary. But more to my point - what does support for bm raw mean to what I'm talking about exactly? I'm more than well aware of what options are out there, my friend, I'm simply talking about what the possibility of a blackmagic LF camera would be. I'm not here to like, argue about which lens mount I'm thinking about using either. PL would be nice too. But again, I'm not here to just argue for the sake of arguing. I"m just trying to discuss ideas. And again, so what you're saying is that developing the 12K sensor was cheap? and developing a LF sensor would be impossible? why? lol I don't get it but alright. there's plenty of demand, plenty.


It’s fine to talk ideas. You are just making factually incorrect statements like this…

devinpickering wrote:And BM Raw as I originally believed was supposed to be an open format design is only accepted by Nikon, which I hate to say, isn't exactly known for their dedication to cinematography, all respect to Nikon as a photgraphy company.


It’s just totally wrong.

Canon, Panasonic and Sigma all make cameras that work with BRAW.

There’s a big difference between the R&D cost of something and then the per unit cost. You can see this with the 12K camera pricing. It started of as a 10K unit and then got halved once the unit cost of the sensor fab when past their minimum threshold. You don’t know how many units you’re going to sell until you sell (three or four years from now) and a lot of tech can change in that time.

It’s millions of dollars to R&D a sensor from scratch. It’s sent many companies broke trying to do it. It’s a very risky thing to do because it’s not only millions of dollars, but it’s a three year cycle from start to finish. You’re risking millions of dollars for a design you can’t ship until three years from now that may or may not work. You don’t know until you start the R&D phase.

Every single FF sensor out there in all cameras is actually usually at least two sensors stitched or butted together.

https://harvestimaging.com/blog/?p=hkivnhyqbmn&paged=7

This means the quality has to be very high, because you have multiple sensors ALL of which usually have some faults, that have to be programmed out individually and THEN they have to be exactly the same or calibrated to appear to be the same, which is also very difficult. RED hae just gone though this with their recent release. It’s not uncommon to have a very high failure rate right, more than 50% from the fab process.

It’s freaking exponentially harder to do a stiched / butted sensor which you HAVE to do if it’s 135 format. You’re trying to join at least two “good” sensors together (after you’ve thrown half of them away) and then you get even more that fail at this point too because you can still see the seam.

I don’t doubt that BMD will do a 135 format camera. They have probably the very best track record of any company making cameras to bring higher end, higher cost tools to the masses.

Once they can actually do it, I’m sure they will. Making their own sensor means they now have a lot more control. Remember when you see a 135 format camera from BMD, know that they made the decision to do it 3 years before that date.

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timbutt2

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 27, 2022 6:45 pm

So, I think I first pitched 16K VistaVision based off the 12K sensor at the end of 2020... thus, we could see it by 2024? I'm fine with that.

Even Hook has come on the BMD Forums to state that larger "Full Frame" sensors are more difficult to manufacture. Not going to search for the quote, but it's on here somewhere.

I'm fine with the next URSA Mini Pro being an updated 12K. As long as they can get the media slot updated to CFExpress, and give us some body updates I'm fine. Would love for the Lens Connector up front to be able to be used with Lens Motors for powering them and communication. I've said this elsewhere. So I won't beat a dead horse to death.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 27, 2022 10:40 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
devinpickering wrote: there's plenty of demand, plenty.

Besides still photographers which makes a lot of sense to want FF sensors, where is the demand for cinematography and for a BM LF? Sony's FF cams are on demand because they are great low light cameras. ZCam, well that's not going anywhere. RED Komodo, I got one and besides its box form factor that I like and other features, the FF sensor is the least of them and I can do just well with a BMPCC 6K/6K Pro S35. So, I kind of wonder, where is the demand for a budget conscious FF cine cam? I'm assuming the OP does not have the big production budget to splurged on otherwise they won't be on this forum.


Sir the demand is absolutely there - let me just list the film shot in LF recently - The Revenant, 1917, Joker, Designated Survivor, If Beale Street Could Talk (2018) …
Bohemian Rhapsody (2018) …
Live by Night (2016) …
War for the Planet of the Apes (2017) …
The Girl in the Spider’s Web (2018) …
Dogs of Berlin (2018)
Passengers (2016)
Dark (2017)
Altered Carbon (2018)
Bright (2017)
Doctor Strange (2016)
Assassin’s Creed (2016)
The Boss (2016)
The Huntsman: Winter’s War (2016)
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016)
Allegiant (2016)
Captain America: Civil War (2016)
How to Be Single (2016)
Snowden (2016)
The Revenant (2015)
Spectre (2015)
Mission: Impossible – Rogue Nation (2015)

https://www.indiewire.com/feature/large ... 202179944/
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Jan 28, 2022 8:29 am



Indie wire is not trusted source of tech spec…
I told for spectre, first I remember where most of shoot is classic 35mm filmstrip and only some angle is shooted in Arri65. I saw many backstage on it, and if you check under IMDb.com you can that it’s a mixed bag (like many others movie).

The affirmation is like when people say that 5d is good be cause there was a entire series of doctor house (not a testimonial for quality of video and photography) was did with it, when in the real world only some angle of last episode was shoot with 5dMK2.

Revenant is another movie where there are a mix between Arri65 with ArriXt with Red Epic, not a simple LF due also some lighting situation where focus puller struggle to keep in focus.

LF is not a so common format shooting for many problems involved with it, from shallow of depth to different size and weight of cameras, data support and more additional costs of all gear around it, without talk about assurance of production. Where you had to deal with vfx could be useful to have large sensor and more resolution but not ever.

With the same concept I can tell you that s16 is a new standard of movie be cause tons of series and movie use the old Blackmagic Design pocket (crash cam in many movie).
But in the reality is the occasional and 0.001% of movie, like gopro, like many vdslr, mirroless, for example in Skyfall there many shoot did with sony mirrorless (i met sometimes ago the italian creator of cages used during production), but that not mean a ff movie, they used during some action scene where are too risky to destroy Main A camera.

https://shotonwhat.com/
Is a nice website where you can find cameras and infos
IMDb on spec tech you know more about camera used for movies.
Don’t trust the web list, are often click bait list/title

Anyway when will be, I will be happy to see more options to shoot on different format, more tool for storytelling more options for our creativity :-)


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Last edited by carlomacchiavello on Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Jan 28, 2022 11:22 am

devinpickering wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:
devinpickering wrote: there's plenty of demand, plenty.

Besides still photographers which makes a lot of sense to want FF sensors, where is the demand for cinematography and for a BM LF? Sony's FF cams are on demand because they are great low light cameras. ZCam, well that's not going anywhere. RED Komodo, I got one and besides its box form factor that I like and other features, the FF sensor is the least of them and I can do just well with a BMPCC 6K/6K Pro S35. So, I kind of wonder, where is the demand for a budget conscious FF cine cam? I'm assuming the OP does not have the big production budget to splurged on otherwise they won't be on this forum.


Sir the demand is absolutely there - let me just list the film shot in LF recently - The Revenant, 1917, Joker, Designated Survivor, If Beale Street Could Talk (2018) …
Bohemian Rhapsody (2018) …
Live by Night (2016) …
War for the Planet of the Apes (2017) …
The Girl in the Spider’s Web (2018) …
Dogs of Berlin (2018)
Passengers (2016)
Dark (2017)
Altered Carbon (2018)
Bright (2017)
Doctor Strange (2016)
Assassin’s Creed (2016)
The Boss (2016)
The Huntsman: Winter’s War (2016)
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016)
Allegiant (2016)
Captain America: Civil War (2016)
How to Be Single (2016)
Snowden (2016)
The Revenant (2015)
Spectre (2015)
Mission: Impossible – Rogue Nation (2015)

https://www.indiewire.com/feature/large ... 202179944/


So you are listing movies shot on for example Alexa 65 with a 54.12 x 25.58 mm sensor.
Are you aware about the costs for lenses covering that image circle?
And the costs for lens support, filters, tripods?

Are we talking about FF or LF sensor size here?
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Jan 28, 2022 4:43 pm

devinpickering wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:
devinpickering wrote: there's plenty of demand, plenty.

Besides still photographers which makes a lot of sense to want FF sensors, where is the demand for cinematography and for a BM LF? Sony's FF cams are on demand because they are great low light cameras. ZCam, well that's not going anywhere. RED Komodo, I got one and besides its box form factor that I like and other features, the FF sensor is the least of them and I can do just well with a BMPCC 6K/6K Pro S35. So, I kind of wonder, where is the demand for a budget conscious FF cine cam? I'm assuming the OP does not have the big production budget to splurged on otherwise they won't be on this forum.


Sir the demand is absolutely there - let me just list the film shot in LF recently - The Revenant, 1917, Joker, Designated Survivor, If Beale Street Could Talk (2018) …
Bohemian Rhapsody (2018) …
Live by Night (2016) …
War for the Planet of the Apes (2017) …
The Girl in the Spider’s Web (2018) …
Dogs of Berlin (2018)
Passengers (2016)
Dark (2017)
Altered Carbon (2018)
Bright (2017)
Doctor Strange (2016)
Assassin’s Creed (2016)
The Boss (2016)
The Huntsman: Winter’s War (2016)
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016)
Allegiant (2016)
Captain America: Civil War (2016)
How to Be Single (2016)
Snowden (2016)
The Revenant (2015)
Spectre (2015)
Mission: Impossible – Rogue Nation (2015)

To be fair most of these films wanted 4K + Arri not necessarily LF. Once Netflix made a 4K sensor their requirement for original content everyone suddenly “needed 4K” and Arri had to adapt. The only way for Arri to offer 4K was to stitch two sensors together creating an LF sensor out of necessity not due to demand for LF.

Once Arri releases their 4K S35 sensor I hope this LF/FF fever dies down. I personal don’t like it, as I find the extreme DoF to be very distracting. Even my girlfriend, who is a layman when it comes to cameras & cinematography, has been complaining about how weird the DoF looks in most modern movies & TV shows.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Jan 28, 2022 5:18 pm

devinpickering wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:
devinpickering wrote: there's plenty of demand, plenty.

Besides still photographers which makes a lot of sense to want FF sensors, where is the demand for cinematography and for a BM LF? Sony's FF cams are on demand because they are great low light cameras. ZCam, well that's not going anywhere. RED Komodo, I got one and besides its box form factor that I like and other features, the FF sensor is the least of them and I can do just well with a BMPCC 6K/6K Pro S35. So, I kind of wonder, where is the demand for a budget conscious FF cine cam? I'm assuming the OP does not have the big production budget to splurged on otherwise they won't be on this forum.


Sir the demand is absolutely there - let me just list the film shot in LF recently - The Revenant, 1917, Joker, Designated Survivor, If Beale Street Could Talk (2018) …
Bohemian Rhapsody (2018) …
Live by Night (2016) …
War for the Planet of the Apes (2017) …
The Girl in the Spider’s Web (2018) …
Dogs of Berlin (2018)
Passengers (2016)
Dark (2017)
Altered Carbon (2018)
Bright (2017)
Doctor Strange (2016)
Assassin’s Creed (2016)
The Boss (2016)
The Huntsman: Winter’s War (2016)
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016)
Allegiant (2016)
Captain America: Civil War (2016)
How to Be Single (2016)
Snowden (2016)
The Revenant (2015)
Spectre (2015)
Mission: Impossible – Rogue Nation (2015)

https://www.indiewire.com/feature/large ... 202179944/


Devin, you are listing movies shot with big budget and expensive cameras. This is by no means can be compared to indie budget cameras like BMD, Panasonic GH and EVF, Canon C series, Sony A and F series, ZCams, Kinefinity, and the like. Yes, the demand for big production and large budget movies has been there for a long time but this does not trickle down to the sub $10K cine cameras.

Also, like Carlos said, the link you provide is not a reliable site for tech specs.

You need to realize that unless low budget folks are ready to break the bank for a FF and LF cine cam and lenses, it's hard for manufacturers to profit from it because the technology is expensive (for motion picture). This is different from still cameras, where FF is rightfully a useful solution because it only takes 1 frame at a time (which is a big thing compared to a cam that has to shoot 24fps) and cheaper to manufacture.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 29, 2022 1:48 am

Such a camera will not only be more expensive in the making, since larger sensors have less yield in the chip factory. They'll also be more expensive in production, needing a larger and well experienced crew. That's not the market BM is targeting.
Remember the big URSA and the way it was advertised with three to four people around it? It was BM's biggest failure. They won't repeat that.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 29, 2022 5:01 am

I don't know, I'm kind of shaking my head over this one. It's like asking Toyota to make a car that is comparable to a Ferrari since Ferraris hold the record for the most Grand Prix victories. And while they are at it, Toyota should keep their price point relatively low.

Then there is this, I have been playing guitar for many, many years. When I play something, people will often say, "wow, that guitar sounds great!" I'll hold the guitar up to my ear without playing anything and say "sorry, but I don't hear anything". Then of course they (usually beginners to intermediate players), will play the same exact guitar through the same exact amp, and sound horrible. My point with that is, if your films don't look great, don't blame the gear.

BMD makes good value products. They never claimed to be the Ferrari of cameras. If you want blockbuster type films that win awards, spend the money on the gear, talent, storylines, director, etc. If you think an inexpensive BMD LF camera is what you are missing, then I would say that the "betrayal" comes from the person in the mirror.

You keep going on about people giving their opinions while fiercely defending yours, but I see it as friendly sound logic and reasoning. Sometimes we need to embrace reality for what it is. Maybe you should search "recent" films (2015 on according to you), that were not shot on LF. My guess is that there are just as many (if not more) awards winning films that were not shot on LF. I think you are looking to the wrong company for your needs.

The best advice I can give you is to research the gear used on the films you like and purchase or rent that gear. If you can't afford it, then squeeze everything you have out of the gear you own. I really don't see any other choices for you. Blaming BMD or accusing them of betraying you is certainly not the answer.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 29, 2022 5:09 am

Once you get to an artistic and commercial level that needs a large sensor, you’ll be able to rent one.
Check what camera Christopher Nolan used for “Following”, which put him on the map. By now, he can ask for whatever camera he wants.
I like that example of the guitar and amp very much!
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 23, 2022 3:26 pm

Even though we all wish for an LF sensor from Blackmagic, the good ol' Super35 is still kicking butt out in the wild. I was just watching the latest season of the "Marvelous Mrs. Maisel" and could have sworn that it was shot on Alexa LF so I asked the DP David Mullen, and he replied that it was "regular Alexa Mini". There is so much beautiful work out there produced by Super35 sensors, I'm still amazed at all the amazing videos I've seen produced by the Pocket 6K. No other camera in this price point produces such lovely rich filmic color, not even Komodo which costs more.

I believe that the most important thing that Blackmagic can do is not create an LF sensor, but perfect the Super35 Pocket 6K sensor with a below 10ms read out. This will be truly game changing. I would rather have a fast Super 35 sensor that a jello-y LF sensor. Unless they could deliver both speed and size, but we would be talking about a really expensive camera.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 23, 2022 4:30 pm

the joke is that everyone is greedy for fullframe and now with
a new MFT camera all these get the biggest competition ;- )

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 2:35 am

I was thinking about this in the car returning from a shoot: I love Super 35mm because 4-perf 35mm film has been the standard for a century and 3-perf Super 35mm is what I'm very used to for a motion picture film standard. The overall 35mm Cinema Film Look is based on that size. VistaVision was traditionally for VFX Plates.

Now, do I want there to be an option in the future? Sure. Especially for VFX Plates. The 12K is currently being used for Plates for LED Walls. So a 16K VistaVision would only enhance that.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=155913

Based on the thread here I think that we could expect the Resolution Options at full VistaVision Sensor to be 16K, 10K, & 5K if using the same formula and sensor layout as the 12K. Again, see my previous posts about using the 12K sensor to dictate the resolution of a VistaVision.

So, if a VistaVision 16K comes out the full sensor downsample options give plenty of extra resolution still for 8K and 4K distribution. What's more the Super 35mm Window would still be 12K and then still have the 8K option for downsample.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 2:59 am

I hate to be a broken record in these threads, but it apparently needs to be said again.

Perspective is a function of camera placement. Full stop.
There is no such thing as a "full frame look" vs a "s35 look".

There may be other technical reasons why a larger sensor size has benefits for a particular camera design or rig. But a unique "look" of the image vs a smaller s35 sensor size is not one of them.

Don't take it from me. Take it from an expert cinematographer: https://yedlin.net/NerdyFilmTechStuff/LargeFormatMisconceptions.html
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 2:08 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:I hate to be a broken record in these threads, but it apparently needs to be said again.

Perspective is a function of camera placement. Full stop.
There is no such thing as a "full frame look" vs a "s35 look".

There may be other technical reasons why a larger sensor size has benefits for a particular camera design or rig. But a unique "look" of the image vs a smaller s35 sensor size is not one of them.

Don't take it from me. Take it from an expert cinematographer: https://yedlin.net/NerdyFilmTechStuff/LargeFormatMisconceptions.html


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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 2:15 pm

Do you know the price of a good full frame lenses set against a s35, against the cost of cinema ff camera ?
Do you know the optical problems of diffraction that more bigger is the sensor (with high density) and faster you hit diffraction closing iris, and loose sharpness ?
I not search or want ff mania be cause I know too much reason to give me more problems instead to solve problems.
I hope Blackmagic Design continue to enhance the new sensor tech of wwwrgb and do better on braw with more metadata and more feature


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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 8:49 pm

Am I the only one that hates trying to figure out what the crop is when putting a PL lens on a S35 sensor?
Everybodies version of S35 is not the same, and that adds yet another variable to the mix.

I am not saying the Ursa 12k is not a professional camera, I just dont think serious productions want to deal with odd sized sensors or lenses.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 9:02 pm

Tim Kraemer wrote:Am I the only one that hates trying to figure out what the crop is when putting a PL lens on a S35 sensor?


I don't get it. PL lenses were developed for movie cameras, with horizontal film sizes of anywhere from 10 to 25mm. So the crop compared to what? The still photography standard of FF? How many cinematographers would be concerned with figuring a "crop factor" to a frame size which only recently is becoming commonplace in film production, and which was of very little interest for the past 100+ years or so in cinematography?

If there's an "odd sensor size", it would be FF. Even today, that's the outlier.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 10:56 pm

Tim Kraemer wrote:Am I the only one that hates trying to figure out what the crop is when putting a PL lens on a S35 sensor?
Everybodies version of S35 is not the same, and that adds yet another variable to the mix.

I am not saying the Ursa 12k is not a professional camera, I just dont think serious productions want to deal with odd sized sensors or lenses.
I think you’ll discover that a large amount of PL glass was developed for the S35 film gauge. So when using most PL glass on S35 there is no crop.

35mm motion picture film was run vertically through the camera and had 4-perf or 3-perf as the standard. 3-perf is what S35 digital sensors are equal to. In fact, the 12K sensor is slightly larger than 3-perf S35mm Film.
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Thus there’s a wider field of view on the 12K S35 sensor than traditional S35mm film. Making it so those same lenses you used on a film camera see more. You’d need a wider angle lens on S35mm Film to match the focal of a lens on the UMP12K.

The only area the 12K “crops” is with the anamorphic mode. This is because the full height of the sensor is limited to the S35 3-perf size and not the 4-perf size that you got when shooting anamorphic on film. The ARRI Alexa has a better Anamorphic size sensor in that regard.

So, unless we’re talking anamorphic PL glass the “crop” argument falls apart.


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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Feb 25, 2022 12:04 am

A lens does not crop! When will some folks ever understand that simple fact?
A sensor or a film gate crop. A lens can vignette if used on a sensor or film size it was not made for. PL lenses were made for S-35 (if not for 16mm) and will vignette on photographic FF in most cases.
And, finally, a 35mm always used to be the 'normal' lens for movies as is the 50mm for photographers (if they are not using larger formats).
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Feb 25, 2022 2:14 am

timbutt2 wrote:I think you’ll discover that a large amount of PL glass was developed for the S35 film gauge. So when using most PL glass on S35 there is no crop.


Most mid end manufacturers develop for full frame and then have changeable mounts for the other platforms.
Look at Zeiss for example.
https://www.zeiss.com/consumer-products ... .html#data

If I use a 28mm Zeiss CP.3 I will have a FOV of 65 degrees with a FF sensor. In order to get that same FOV with a super35 sensor camera I have to go down to a 21mm lens or smaller.

To your point there is nothing inherently wrong with the s35 sensor size, but until everyone can agree on a consistent s35 sensor size, and companies start engineering lenses for that specific size, then I am going to remain more interested in full frame and the lenses engineered around that standard size.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Feb 26, 2022 5:33 pm

Tim Kraemer wrote:until everyone can agree on a consistent s35 sensor size, and companies start engineering lenses for that specific size, then I am going to remain more interested in full frame and the lenses engineered around that standard size.

Quality full frame lenses are more expensive than quality S35 lenses. If you are using a crop sensor camera, is the investment in full frame lenses wise? The introduction of the URSA Mini Pro 12K showed us that none of the currently produced lenses have the resolving power to fully exploit the capabilities of a 12K sensor. If you intend to buy a set of lenses that are future proof and will serve you well for a lifetime, they aren't available yet.

Art Adams wrote:

"...An 8K S35 sensor would require a lens with more resolving power than an 8K large format camera as the photo sites are more densely packed.
Art Adams | Cinema Lens Specialist | ARRI, Inc. | lenses@arri.com"

r/cinematography Full Frame lenses on BMPCC 6k. Soft? Acceptably Soft? Crop Glass Better?

https://www.reddit.com/r/cinematography ... cceptably/
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Feb 26, 2022 5:46 pm

Tim Kraemer wrote:
To your point there is nothing inherently wrong with the s35 sensor size, but until everyone can agree on a consistent s35 sensor size, and companies start engineering lenses for that specific size, then I am going to remain more interested in full frame and the lenses engineered around that standard size.


Not sure that this is good logic.

There's no constancy to the "coverage" or image circle size for lenses that are "full frame" or to be more accurate, 135 format.

Even in the same brand, there can be a lot of image circle variation just by focal length. Typically wider lenses tend to "just' make it....

Have a look at Arri's very useful lens illumination function here. It will actually show you how much the corners darken on some of those wider lenses.
https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/lear ... ation-tool

It's been mentioned before, but this is a fascinating look at the difference between other formats and big boy large format, which is actually not 135 full frame, but Camera 65, better known as 70mm

https://manuelluebbers.com/large-format ... lexa-mini/

And if anything, using a LARGER image circle on a smaller sensor size CAN lead to unexpected flares and a loss of contrast because that extra large circle of light is now bouncing off other surfaces in-between the back of the lens and the sensor.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Feb 26, 2022 8:01 pm

also intersting

"If you’re shooting Super35, why would you go back to a Super35 lens instead of a new future-proof Full Frame lens?
Part of the Cooke Look is the focus fall-off at the edges. Our lenses are not “flat” meaning that we do not try to make the corners and the center equally sharp.
If you draw a vertical line through the center axis and you spin that around and make a circle, that’s what we call the picture height area. Obviously, that’s a larger circle in Full Frame than it is in Super35. This area on a Cooke lens, the sweet spot, is where we pay a lot of attention. Outside that circle, we let the image fall off to the corners. The center is as sharp as can be, and as we move to the edges of frame, it gets slightly softer. We do that because most of the time you are filming people or things where the area of interest is towards the center, and the edge fall-off adds a pleas- ing dimensionality to the image and brings the viewer’s attention toward the center.
Now, if you think about a Full Frame lens, keep in mind that the picture height circle is bigger. It is usually 24mm high instead of 18mm. So, if you put a Full Frame lens on a Super35 camera, the image is going to be cleaner because all that pleasing fall-off area is outside of frame."

From Les Zellan, legendary chairman of Cooke Optics

https://www.fdtimes.com/pdfs/articles/c ... r-2020.pdf

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Feb 26, 2022 9:47 pm

John Brawley wrote:"Part of the Cooke Look is the focus fall-off at the edges. Our lenses are not “flat” meaning that we do not try to make the corners and the center equally sharp."
From Les Zellan, legendary chairman of Cooke Optics

Not all lenses use this Cooke formula. Here are some measurements of sharpness across the image frame. The Sony SCL CineAlta primes do not have this design, and are "flat". The Zeiss Compact Primes are not quite as flat and the Arri Ultra Primes are slightly closer to the Cooke's.

"With this lens-test report we would like to provide a comparison between the new Sony SCL-PK6/F CineAlta PL Mount lenses and other state of the art products such as Cooke S4, Zeiss Compact Prime and Arri Ultra Prime lenses."

T2SFR(MTF)Corner.png
Figure 15 - Cooke S4 35mm lens shows weakest MTF values
T2SFR(MTF)Corner.png (251.87 KiB) Viewed 21778 times

"...The Cooke S4 35mm lens shows weakest MTF values at the image corners resulting in a soft, blurred image appearance towards the boarder. This poor corner-MTF performance is also reason for the decreased total-MTF value presented at Figure 13."
MTF(SFR)Comparison.png
Figure 13 - Cooke S4 35mm lens has weakest MTF values
MTF(SFR)Comparison.png (285.27 KiB) Viewed 21778 times

Short Analysis and Comparison of Sony SCL Prime Lenses

https://www.kamerawerk.ch/data/images/3 ... rawerk.pdf
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Feb 26, 2022 10:23 pm

dondidnod wrote:Not all lenses use this Cooke formula. Here are some measurements of sharpness across the image frame. The Sony SCL CineAlta primes do not have this design, and are "flat". The Zeiss Compact Primes are not quite as flat and the Arri Ultra Primes are closer to the Cooke's.


You have to keep in mind that Ultra Prime and S4 have a smaller image circle than Compact Prime and Sony, so doesn't it depend on what format you are projecting these onto? The Compact Prime fall off in detail a lot from the center with the aperture wide open on 135.

I think this is the most important detail from John's quote:

John Brawley wrote: So, if you put a Full Frame lens on a Super35 camera, the image is going to be cleaner because all that pleasing fall-off area is outside of frame."
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Feb 26, 2022 11:02 pm

dondidnod wrote:Not all lenses use this Cooke formula. Here are some measurements of sharpness across the image frame.


Err....

Yes, but one of these companies only made two sets of PL cinema lenses that I know of, and the other has been making lenses so sought after by cinematographers that even decades old copies are lovingly restored and praised for their unique look and their used prices have only appreciated. New sales can't even keep up following the same optical traits....

I'm being a little salty, but the point that I think Les / Cooke make very well, that one persons image perfection is another person's image flaws...

Very few are choosing a lens based on it's MTF unless you're into photographing test charts....

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Feb 26, 2022 11:25 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:You have to keep in mind that Ultra Prime and S4 have a smaller image circle than Compact Prime and Sony, so doesn't it depend on what format you are projecting these onto?

The Sony SCL lenses are S35 ones. They came out before Sony went full frame in the CineAlta line with the Venice in 2017. The article I quoted is from 2014, after Sony expanded their SCL CineAlta lens offerings. The Sony SCL PL mount lenses first came out in 2010 and were bundled with the PMW-F3. I think that they were made by Minolta.

Matthew Duclos wrote:

"Sony is just starting to roll out their anticipated F3 camera. A Super 35 sized sensor in a small, lightweight package.
… Sony is offering three PL mount prime lenses (35,50,85mm) for an additional $6,500 (I think) that would work just fine on the F3."

SONY F3 LENS OPTIONS

https://thecinelens.com/2011/01/24/sony ... /#comments
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Feb 27, 2022 12:12 am

Many modern lenses have a contrasty, "flat" image because they use a lot of anti-reflective coatings to deal with so many lens groups and the reflective nature of an OLPF filter on a digital sensor. This is in contrast to vintage film lenses that had fewer lens groups (the simple Cooke triplet formula), and did not have to deal with reflective sensor filters.
GoneWithWindCrop.png
MGM used only Cooke lenses in the 1930s
GoneWithWindCrop.png (930.23 KiB) Viewed 21704 times

BM cameras do not come with OLPF filters over the sensor.

Since Cooke allows you to go all out with this vintage look by offering by special order, S4 lenses without any coatings, would adding an OLPF filter to your BM camera compromise this "Cooke look"?
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Feb 27, 2022 1:44 am

The IR filter is reflective too, Donald.
My UMP G1 has a RAWlite OLPF and I get plenty of vintage look with lenses like a Mir 37mm or a Meyer Primoplan 58mm. Some of those older FF lenses from the eastern block have the falloff to the corners described above, even on S-35mm, if used WO.
What one should avoid at all costs are lenses with an uncoated flat rear glass, since those will cause nasty regular patterns of reflection. The Red One was quite prone to that and some of their later OLPFs too.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Feb 27, 2022 2:48 am

Uli Plank wrote: The Red One was quite prone to that and some of their later OLPFs too.



All of them have this problem.

Komodo is the only camera I've seen that doesn't. It's a very significant tell.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Feb 27, 2022 2:50 am

dondidnod wrote:BM cameras do not come with OLPF filters over the sensor.


They have an IR sensor cover glass that is typically also part of the optical stack between the camera and the sensor on all modern cameras.

dondidnod wrote:Since Cooke allows you to go all out with this vintage look by offering by special order, S4 lenses without any coatings, would adding an OLPF filter to your BM camera compromise this "Cooke look"?


No. An OLPF is designed to reduce fine detail that the given sensor it's designed for typically can't resolve anyway.

It's not really doing what the above linked "cooke look" discussion was about.

The cooke look is usually associated with a very pretty but technically inaccurate 3D pop. This has the affect of being very flattering to peoples faces when in the centre sweet spot of the lens. In addition they feather the edges (as discussed above) so that the resolution is sharper in the middle than at the sides of the lens.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Feb 27, 2022 5:32 am

And the addendum.

Interesting comparison of Cooke S4s with a modern high end set of Leica’s which prioritise different optical traits to the Cookes.



Shane’s hyperbolic but I think his commentary is spot on.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Mar 04, 2022 4:58 am

I have a good friend who has the LUMIX S5 (full frame) camera that does very nice video (and stills) that he imports daily to DaVinci Resolve. I am holding out on getting one until this summer because I want to see what BMD will release on the 10 year anniversary of the pocket camera.

I full frame camera that could shoot stills like the LUMIX S5, and still be affordable, would be dynomite!
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Mar 05, 2022 12:15 am

CineD advertises a course called „ Using Large Format Cameras in Cinematography“ by James Laxton

“To me, it’s all about immersiveness, the proximity from subject to lens, where you’re close enough to feel emotional connectivity,” says Laxton.


If you set a Super 35 camera in the same place as a Large Format Camera, with the same lens and distance to the subject, the Super 35 frame boxes in the actor and limits their movement. Laxton suggests it’s a shame that we ask actors to sit in a chair or at a precise point and tell them not to move.


Sounds a bit esoteric to me…

https://www.cined.com/using-large-forma ... atography/

Scroll down to the comments, especially the one from Mitch Gross calling it out as what it is.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Mar 05, 2022 12:37 am

That's BS. A large format camera has a narrower FoV than S-35 for the same composition. Consequently, an actor/actress has a less room to move.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Mar 05, 2022 3:17 am

Hoping BM stays Super35!
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 2:28 pm

Looks like the idea is gaining momentum.

https://ymcinema.com/2022/03/30/large-f ... ce-of-s35/
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 4:53 pm

Tim Kraemer wrote:Looks like the idea is gaining momentum.

https://ymcinema.com/2022/03/30/large-f ... ce-of-s35/


That's just marketing BS. Everything you can do with large format can be done with an s35. You just have to match it with the right lens, position the camera to obtain corresponding distance and angle, etc.

Unless you are doing super big budget production, it doesn't really matter.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 5:48 pm

Yeah, agreed about the marketing BS. Considering how many major motion pictures were done in S35 for so long. And, if you look at the common lenses of most major directors they're generally wider lenses. For example Spielberg loves the 21mm. That's apparently how he sees the world, but he does it with great blocking.

This was on Premium Beat the other day: https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/favori ... directors/

Personally I love my 24mm or 25mm, but also often will go 35mm. I do vary my focal options a lot. But it's how you use the focal lengths in unison with S35 that matters more than the sensor size.

With the original 2.5K Cinema Camera I treated it like Super 16mm and got great results. In fact my best music video shot on the 2.5K was primarily shot on the 24mm, which is equivalent to 35mm on S35. But I did shoot other focal lengths like the 11, 16, 35, 85, and 135 for that music video for certain shots.

I'm actually enjoying the TV Shot Chuck again on HBOMax as my "falling asleep" show and that was shot on Super 16mm. It still looks great and holds up. They got some great depth of field with the way they shot that show. So even Super 16mm still has a place.
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The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 6:13 pm

Steve Yeldin’s comments argue that the look (and angle of view) you can get with either full-frame or Super35 can be made to be equivalent (including depth of field) if you make the proper equivalent adjustments (including aperture).

Definitely pulls the rug out from some of these DoP who are talking nonsense such as the statement that a 4:3 aspect ratio allows use of 2x anamorphic lenses without crop whereas as a Super35 16:9 aspect ratio would have to use a less desirable 1.33x anamorphic. Several people mentioned higher resolution of a larger sensor but only when photosites use identical pitch; some rightly look for larger photosites on a larger sensor.

They need to think about the impact of the BMD 12K sensor (which assumes downscaling somewhere in your workflow and) considering that most cinema is released for 4K/2K; the sensor is the starting point but I suspect most if not every frame you see in a cinema has been cropped to suit the deliverables and the stories.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 6:19 pm

Tim,
Trouble with only considering the focal length (as Sareesh and others) for a preference is that is not enough information. One must also consider the size of the sensor or film coverage.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 7:02 pm

There’s no need to introduce the advantages of the large format sensors. The math is pretty simple. Larger real estate will give you larger pixels, more color accuracy, less noise, more resolution, and so on.

I'm afraid I'm with Ellory and others on this. Resolution and noise are not really a problem now with proper exposure and only zooming into megapixels should be relevant for VFX. Pixels are not silver halide grain - it doesn't necessarily follow that a bigger sensor has more resolution - witness the current highest, the Super35mm 12K. 'Color accuracy' always makes me laugh because as an online and grading editor, first and foremost, I can tell you no camera is colour accurate, even Alexas, and I have had them all on my calibrated reference monitor and many other similar monitors. The colorimetry thing leaves me baffled since good colourists can make any camera's colours look like another, given sufficient quality of the rushes. We have to work to strictly calibrated International monitor standards with waveform monitors that beat our lying eyes.

It's entirely subjective as was film stocks and that's fine but there is nothing in FF as opposed to any other sensor size that makes them more colour accurate. DOPs may love a particular look - they are artists - but being colour accurate is another thing. It's like people who swear analogue tape has superior fidelity to digital audio - it doesn't! And I love real to reel. And as Mitch Gross said in response to that other BS article, maths and physics trumps magic. DOF is the same for any given aperture at any given f stop, regardless of sensor size - only the AOV changes - 80mm has the same DOF at f2 always, yes you have to move the small sensor back a long ways, but it's just the same shot, if you do. And change the aperture at the same AOV between FF and Super35 and you can get the same effect too. Why is one considered more 'cinematic' than the other then? Did Super 8 look like video?

When VistaVision was introduced, very shallow depth of field was seen as a potential problem with the new format. Paramount specifically recommended shooting at f5.6, which was a smaller aperture than normal for standard 35mm, to alleviate and match the smaller gauge.

Anyway, I am very sure BMD will introduce a FF camera soon - it's a market fad that can't be ignored.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 7:49 pm

Jeffrey D Mathias wrote:Trouble with only considering the focal length (as Sareesh and others) for a preference is that is not enough information. One must also consider the size of the sensor or film coverage.


But all or nearly all those examples were 35mm. Aspect ratios would vary, but the width of the recording area was pretty much fixed, putting aside whatever equivalent horizontal measurement you'd get with anamorphic. The others are about 21-22mm across, with S35m about 24mm. Sounds quaint, these days....
Last edited by John Paines on Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 8:17 pm

Wow LF, all better, all bigger all…
That change your POV of life
How many of you that call for LF are aware about the cost of lenses for LF?
How many of you are aware about difference in dof?
Anyway, I’m happy with s35, I prefer newer wwwrgb sensor camera then a larger sensor.


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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 9:14 pm

If S35 is dying then why is Arri going to be releasing a new 4K S35 camera with the first new sensor from Arri since 2010's ALEV III sensor?

I love full frame but sometimes I get tricked of thinking something was shot on full frame when it wasn't. I was watching the latest season of "Marvelous Mr's Maisel" and was admiring the lovely cinematography as always, but the new season I thought was shot on the Alexa LF, because it looked more dimensional. I wrote the DP, David Mullen, ASC, and he replied that nope, the new season was just like the first 3, regular Alexa Mini with Panavision Primo lenses and a few shots done with Angenieux zooms. Mind you, the Primo lenses are T1.9.

"Marvelous Mr's Maisel" is a really high bar for me on every level of filmmaking, especially the cinematography. S35 is good enough.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 9:37 pm

carlomacchiavello wrote:How many of you that call for LF are aware about the cost of lenses for LF?


That's right Carlo - it's harder to get the same quality at the same wide f stop for the FF lenses as it is for Super35mm ones, at the same price. Therefore you might be in a situation that your Super35 lenses can operate at a larger, sharper aperture than the FF one, reducing you back to exactly that same DOF on both sensors - square one. And to paraphrase that quote I used: The math is pretty simple. You can have larger pixels and more sensitivity and less noise or higher resolution, with more pixels, of the same size at the same sensitivity and same noise, with a larger sensor of the same Bayer design. But you can't have both at the same time.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Mar 30, 2022 10:38 pm

Will Vazquez wrote:"Marvelous Mr's Maisel" is a really high bar for me on every level of filmmaking, especially the cinematography. S35 is good enough.


100% agreed. David Mullen's work there has been fantastic - almost every frame a painting. I am enjoying the show immensely - on all levels: script, actors, directing, art direction, production design, cinematography, editing, sound, and music.
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
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Robert Niessner
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John Griffin

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Mar 31, 2022 7:14 am

If they can find a 36x24mm sensor that will do 50/60p at full res without crop then it may be viable as a BM product. To minimise moiré and aliasing without an OLPF it would need to be a 24mp+ sensor so that rules out the 12mp sensor in the Sony A7sIII. All my faster full frame legacy wide and standard lenses vignette at wider apertures on full frame so to get an even illumination they need stopping down to 4/5.6. The same lenses on my P6k can be used at wider apertures and sometimes full wide open at 2/2.8 without this problem so neither the DOF nor the exposure is compromised by having a smaller sensor. If BM go for a bigger sensor they should do what they are best at which is disrupting the market and introduce a 48x36 sensor....
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John Griffin

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Mar 31, 2022 9:51 am

Different or better?
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