The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

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Ryan Earl

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Apr 10, 2022 12:48 am

John Brawley wrote:Leica owns “L” mount. It’s up to them.

Why would BMD want to use a sensor that sigma designed ?

The FP is disappointing.

JB

I’m just brainstorming along the lines of how the BMD cameras are split between cinema and broadcast. Maybe the Sigma sensor fits into BMD’s broadcast line at a lower cost and gets to market faster to compete in that space.

Then BMD sensors are better suited to helping Sigma make a cinema camera with internal BRAW. BMD could receive manufacturing upgrades from Sigma for their cinema line. Maybe it’s weather sealed or uses the Sigma heat sink from the FP.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Apr 10, 2022 12:48 am

@Ryan, 6K in a Micro may be appealing, if it used a Dual ISO sensor. But I agree the use of their 12K RGBWWW technology might be their preferred choice in a Micro or Pocket 8K.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Apr 10, 2022 12:51 am

rick.lang wrote:@Ryan, 6K in a Micro may be appealing, if it used a Dual ISO sensor. But I agree the use of their 12K RGBWWW technology might be their preferred choice in a Micro or Pocket 8K.
Yes, I have a big investment in the 12K. I do think it’s the most filmic and would love a smaller version in the $2,000 range.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Apr 10, 2022 7:27 am

Lens tolerances and designs become easier with smaller formats as the refractive index of glass is constant. Look how small and cheap but still very high performance lenses are for M43 vs FF (or even lenses for smartphones). Going the other way look at the size and cost of lenses for MF digital systems. What has photon count got to do with image quality - can you explain?
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Apr 10, 2022 9:21 am

Smart phones and very small consumer sensors usually have fixed focus single element lenses, the focus being in software. There are MTF challenges for lens at both extremes of sensor size, especially with complex multi element or zoom lenses. For the small sensor the onset of diffraction will be much sooner and can be a problem. For example to make a true HD B4 zoom for 1/3" is much more difficult than for a 2/3", let alone 4K (currently there are none) and diffraction will occur at f8 or less, robbing more resolution and CA a greater problem too for 1/3" - for a 2mm sensor that diffraction could be f4. At the other extreme as you get to larger and higher resolution sensors, it gets more challenging, and therefore more expensive, to make a quality lens, to have sufficient MTF to match that, especially with edge to edge sharpness and fast, wide apertures and doubly so for zooms. With a shallow DOF we don't see some of these lenses fall off that way, at the edges. A lot of so called vintage lenses now popular are nice because their MTF falls somewhat below sensor MTF.
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Chris Huf

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Apr 10, 2022 4:06 pm

John Griffin wrote:Lens tolerances and designs become easier with smaller formats as the refractive index of glass is constant. Look how small and cheap but still very high performance lenses are for M43 vs FF (or even lenses for smartphones). Going the other way look at the size and cost of lenses for MF digital systems. What has photon count got to do with image quality - can you explain?

More Photon count => better separation between noise and input:
The smaller the individual sensor elements the less photons reach it. So they need to be more sensitive.
Wich makes them more prone to noise.
But I agree a bit on the sensor size from my photo experience, fullframe lenses usually have bigger problems fighting vigneting and overall sharpness than their cropped sensor counterpart from my experience.
Also using a fullframe lens on a cropped sensor gives you usually just the sweet spot of a lens.
I think this even outweights the optical degradation from the need to go wider on a smaller sensor. But this is only my personal opinion..and this is very tinted with a very budgetary mind.
(Edit as Steve Fishwick said)
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John Brawley

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Apr 10, 2022 7:15 pm

It's so much more complicated than what's being discussed here. Pixel size and pitch are but one of many variables that can affect imaging performance. The old "rules" don't so much apply when you have generations of technological difference (high gain vs dual gain etc) and new designs like BMD's that have tiny pixels but also W filters that are a lot more sensitive than filtered pixels.

The main issue with 135 format is LEGACY film mounts. EF was designed as a FILM ERA lens mount.

Film era lenses tend to have very poor fall off performance. The corners are darker than the middle of the lens.

One of the main design goals of the MFT mount was to make a highly telecentric mount, meaning that lenses could be optimised more easily to not suffer from darker corners (and also other optical distortions)

This is called shading, or falloff.

https://www.edmundoptics.com/knowledge- ... gn-topics/

Every sensor typically has a micro-lens on each photo site and these can also be very difficult when interacting with non-telectrinc lenses. Think about CA and then think about how every photo site has it's own lens in-between your taking lens and the photo site itself.

This is called sensor shading. It's like lens shading, but a secondary step at the sensor level.

For this that remember the infamous "magenta corners", this was to do with sensor shading.

Many modern lens mounts are designed for telecentric lens designs. Think LPL, MFT, R, L, E, Z mounts.

They are all optimised to be telecentric and have no requirement to work with legacy film era lenses which are often very far from teelcentric designs.

These choices affect the image far more than the size of the pixels.

JB
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Apr 10, 2022 9:44 pm

I feel like the largest demand for Full Frame stems from the people who started on DSLR cameras as opposed to film. And, I think the largest percentage of them are people who bought into the still photography views that full frame was better than APS-C without fully understanding how APS-C and Full Frame formats clacks to be. Then transitioning to video too many don’t understand why Super 35 was the main sensor size.

There’s still an anecdote I like to make, that in light of Will Smith’s recent use of the slap, diminishes the conceptual image. “Go up to Steven Spielberg and tell him you loved his movies, but are disappointed that they were shot in a crop format because he used Super 35 instead of Full Frame. He will smack you for your insolence.” Now, it’s a point about not having Full Frame hasn’t stopped the greatest filmmakers for the last century. And, I’m general they don’t get caught up on that.

VistaVision was primarily used for VFX shots. 65mm also primarily used for VFX. Only in the last 15-years have filmmakers used Large Format for enhanced viewing experiences, and that has primarily been the use of 15-Perforation 70mm IMAX Film. Otherwise, larger movies are using LF for a new high quality shooting of digital for digital IMAX presentation. Or, in some instances to meet the 4K requirements of Netflix and Streamers because the Super 35 sensor wasn’t truly a 4K sensor.

If Blackmagic makes a Full Frame (VistaVision) Sensor my hope is for it to be useful for the VFX purposes, having a true Anamorphic Sensor area and to appropriately match what the film size was, and having a good Super 35mm window with higher frame rates. I’m sure most of the time I’ll opt to use the Super 35 Window with my cinema lenses. Currently the cinema zooms are S35, and for run and gun shoots they are perfectly suited.


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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Apr 10, 2022 11:13 pm

John Brawley wrote:Every sensor typically has a micro-lens on each photo site and these can also be very difficult when interacting with non-telectrinc lenses. Think about CA and then think about how every photo site has it's own lens in-between your taking lens and the photo site itself.


Agree with everything you say JB but micro lenses don't act as a direct lens upon each photosite but rather funnel 'lost' light away from the spaces between, toward those photosites.
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John Brawley

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Apr 10, 2022 11:36 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
John Brawley wrote:Every sensor typically has a micro-lens on each photo site and these can also be very difficult when interacting with non-telectrinc lenses. Think about CA and then think about how every photo site has it's own lens in-between your taking lens and the photo site itself.


Agree with everything you say JB but micro lenses don't act as a direct lens upon each photosite but rather funnel 'lost' light away from the spaces between, toward those photosites.


Yes….that is the design goal and why you have them, however…..

But in a non telecentric lens where the light comes in at an increasingly oblique angle that CHANGES the further you get away from the middle it compounds….

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 12:00 am

John Brawley wrote:But in a non telecentric lens where the light comes in at an increasingly oblique angle that CHANGES the further you get away from the middle it compounds….


CA is not inherent to sensors. It can be compounded with 3 chip prisms but CA for single sensors derives from a purely optical lens aberration. Hence the difficulties that BMD may have faced in designing a B4 mount with optical adaption from 3 chips to 1. B4 lenses have severe increased CA on those adaptors without such optical compensation for sensors they were never designed for. Micro lenses are badly named - their purpose is not to 'focus' light but to amplify it and increase the sensitivity of cmos sensors.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 2:02 am

John Brawley wrote:But in a non telecentric lens where the light comes in at an increasingly oblique angle that CHANGES the further you get away from the middle it compounds….


That's why Leica had the problem with non-telecentric wides on some cameras.
The same happened with adapted classic Leica lenses on Sony still cameras.
And this is not the same as lens CA, Steve.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 4:05 am

John Brawley wrote:It's so much more complicated than what's being discussed here. Pixel size and pitch are but one of many variables that can affect imaging performance.


This is very interesting. I own a Sony A7SIII and just got a A7IV. I did tests filming a person with the Zeiss ZE 25mm f/2 and the Zeiss ZE 35mm f/1.4. The A7sIII with the 12MP larger pixel pitch renders a more dimensional image, it has more of a 3D pop and separation of the subject from background using the same exact lenses than on the A7IV. I was amazed at what I was seeing. One other interesting thing is that the A7IV having more pixels (33MP), rendered a smoother and more color saturated image than the A7SIII. I'm torn as to which camera I prefer, the 3D dimensionality of the A7SIII, or the smoother, richer color density of the A7IV.

This 3D pop and dimensionality to the image is something that the Pocket 6K and 4K have over the Komodo. The Komodo image looks more flat. Sensor size isn't everything. The Alexa Mini renders a very dimensional image. This must be the pixel pitch. Is pixel pitch more important than sensor size? I'm not sure. Komodo pixel pitch is large but looks flat. There is so much more to really to take into account. I don't know where the secret sauce is.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 5:52 am

Uli Plank wrote:That's why Leica had the problem with non-telecentric wides on some cameras.
The same happened with adapted classic Leica lenses on Sony still cameras.
And this is not the same as lens CA, Steve.


Yes Uli, I understand and wasn't disagreeing with John. I was just pointing out CA in relation to a sensor bit.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 6:12 am

Will Vazquez wrote:
Will Vazquez wrote:The A7sIII with the 12MP larger pixel pitch renders a more dimensional image, it has more of a 3D pop and separation of the subject from background using the same exact lenses than on the A7IV.

Can you post these as side by sides samples as this would be a game changer in the understanding of the laws of physics and optics.
Last edited by John Griffin on Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 12:05 pm

timbutt2 wrote:I feel like the largest demand for Full Frame stems from the people who started on DSLR cameras as opposed to film. And, I think the largest percentage of them are people who bought into the still photography views that full frame was better than APS-C without fully understanding how APS-C and Full Frame formats clacks to be. Then transitioning to video too many don’t understand why Super 35 was the main sensor size.

There’s still an anecdote I like to make, that in light of Will Smith’s recent use of the slap, diminishes the conceptual image. “Go up to Steven Spielberg and tell him you loved his movies, but are disappointed that they were shot in a crop format because he used Super 35 instead of Full Frame. He will smack you for your insolence.” Now, it’s a point about not having Full Frame hasn’t stopped the greatest filmmakers for the last century. And, I’m general they don’t get caught up on that.

VistaVision was primarily used for VFX shots. 65mm also primarily used for VFX. Only in the last 15-years have filmmakers used Large Format for enhanced viewing experiences, and that has primarily been the use of 15-Perforation 70mm IMAX Film. Otherwise, larger movies are using LF for a new high quality shooting of digital for digital IMAX presentation. Or, in some instances to meet the 4K requirements of Netflix and Streamers because the Super 35 sensor wasn’t truly a 4K sensor.

If Blackmagic makes a Full Frame (VistaVision) Sensor my hope is for it to be useful for the VFX purposes, having a true Anamorphic Sensor area and to appropriately match what the film size was, and having a good Super 35mm window with higher frame rates. I’m sure most of the time I’ll opt to use the Super 35 Window with my cinema lenses. Currently the cinema zooms are S35, and for run and gun shoots they are perfectly suited.


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And if the majority of future independent filmmakers which arent married with the past do want full frame film cameras for whatever reason, a camera-building-company should have interest in reacting to this trend and sell cameras to these people. No?

i think arguing with the past when it comes to the future isnt always the best way to support change. And change is something that happens, with or without us. If everyone would be able to adapt to change instead of trying to preserve the past, this world would be a better place for all of us.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 12:29 pm

Well, there are quite a few FF cameras.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 12:41 pm

Rick Baer wrote:And if the majority of future independent filmmakers which arent married with the past do want full frame film cameras for whatever reason, a camera-building-company should have interest in reacting to this trend and sell cameras to these people. No?

i think arguing with the past when it comes to the future isnt always the best way to support change. And change is something that happens, with or without us. If everyone would be able to adapt to change instead of trying to preserve the past, this world would be a better place for all of us.


If folks want FF, "for whatever reason", fine. But let's be honest about what those reasons are, because the usual reasons given -- as in this thread -- are unsupportable. Just in the last few exchanges we've seen another dubious claim introduced, "dimensionality". Add that one to "motion cadence".

It may also be helpful to distinguish between actual "future independent filmmakers" and aspirational FF filmmakers who will never encounter the downsides of FF, because they're not actually making movies. Which one is driving the FF consumer push?

The 'chang'e you're talking about is mostly a marketing phenomenon. Nothing inevitable or necessary about it, and least of all in the independent realm. It could also be seen as a regressive. Go back sometime and look at low-budget features and documents shot on the Canon 5D. If you love out of focus shots, that format's for you.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 12:43 pm

Seconded. FF is retro!
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 12:53 pm

John Paines wrote:It may also be helpful to distinguish between actual "future independent filmmakers" and aspirational FF filmmakers who will never encounter the downsides of FF, because they're not actually making movies. Which one is driving the FF consumer push?

The 'chang'e you're talking about is mostly a marketing phenomenon. Nothing inevitable or necessary about it, and least of all in the independent realm. It could also be seen as a regressive. Go back sometime and look at low-budget features and documents shot on the Canon 5D. If you love out of focus shots, that format's for you.


Another driver is broadcast, especially sports. The Masters golf tournament yesterday had what looked like FF cameras following the players up close. GH6 has pretty good autofocus and stabilization for that too, but I suspect they are using FF with how wide the shots are.

ESPN featured a baseball player this morning with a sit down interview that maybe had his eye and nose in focus but was really wide angle and the camera was very close to him.

I think the trend is wide and shallow.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 2:03 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:… ESPN featured a baseball player this morning with a sit down interview that maybe had his eye and nose in focus but was really wide angle and the camera was very close to him.

I think the trend is wide and shallow.


I didn’t see the interview, but posing most people in that frame with camera lens “wide and very close” is a perspective that is far from flattering. A mildly longer than normal lens filling the frame is going to look better to the viewer and have the subject feeling more comfortable during and after the sitting. So I’d add “ugly and lazy” to the description.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 3:51 pm

rick.lang wrote:
Ryan Earl wrote:… ESPN featured a baseball player this morning with a sit down interview that maybe had his eye and nose in focus but was really wide angle and the camera was very close to him.

I think the trend is wide and shallow.


I didn’t see the interview, but posing most people in that frame with camera lens “wide and very close” is a perspective that is far from flattering. A mildly longer than normal lens filling the frame is going to look better to the viewer and have the subject feeling more comfortable during and after the sitting. So I’d add “ugly and lazy” to the description.


Hi Rick,
Sometimes you choose wide and very close so you can keep people from blocking your shots. It's just like at a wedding, it you stand back for a more flattering shot of the cake cutting, people will nudge their way in front of you and then your shot is blocked.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 7:58 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:Everyone suddenly needed shallow DOF, they must have it, even the broadcasters,


Yes, they quickly figured out that if the rest of the frame was blurred enough, they could rely 100% on the Rule of Mediocrity and pass it off as "cinematic bokeh" and use it as yet another excuse to not learn their craft... :lol:
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 11, 2022 9:53 pm

@Tom, I know and am always amazed how some folks totally ignore the obvious fact you’re recording an event and continually get in front of your camera for a better view. I haven’t actually ‘eliminated’ those people, but I’ve thought about it! Then again there are many nice folks that ensure you can see as they quickly cross your frame.
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The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Apr 12, 2022 1:32 pm

Canon has announced two new EF and PL Cine zoom lenses for ‘full frame’ if you’ll pardon my French. So much for the demise of the EF mount. I’d be disappointed if I had bought a recent Canon camera supporting their R mount. Each of the 20-50mm and 45-135mm T2.4 zooms cost $21,999 at B&H Photo.

https://www.fdtimes.com/2022/04/12/cano ... -ff-zooms/
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Apr 12, 2022 1:52 pm

rick.lang wrote:Canon has announced two new EF and PL Cine zoom lenses for ‘full frame’ if you’ll pardon my French. So much for the demise of the EF mount. I’d be disappointed if I had bought a recent Canon camera supporting their R mount.


Why would you be disappointed? It's actually better in the EF mount. If you bought a Komodo, Raptor or a new Canon R5C camera, you're actually better off with the EF mount, because you can use the EF to RF variable ND adapter or the KipperTie Revolva adapter.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Apr 12, 2022 2:56 pm

Will, you’re right that they’ll work, and that’s a solution that is great for your legacy EF lenses. But why launch two new Cine zooms for the old mount when you’ve released a new mount and you might think the best way you can drive sales to the new mount on the new cameras is by releasing new lenses for the new mount.

If there are any optical advantages to having a new camera and a new mount, these new zooms won’t see those advantages. If there were no optical advantages to the new mount on the new cameras, why would Canon release a new mount for new cameras?

When Canon went to the EF mount on their EOS cameras, didn’t they appear to put their energy into making lenses for the EF mount, leaving behind their previous generation FD? Is it all a game?
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Apr 12, 2022 3:30 pm

By the way, Duclos Lenses says the new zooms’ “Deliveries begin June/September 2022.”
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Apr 12, 2022 4:33 pm

rick.lang wrote:If there are any optical advantages to having a new camera and a new mount, these new zooms won’t see those advantages. If there were no optical advantages to the new mount on the new cameras, why would Canon release a new mount for new cameras?


My guess is that it's a PL mount lens with an EF option, since it's a cine lens and not a stills lens. The only cinema cameras on the market that have RF mounts are Komodo and V-Raptor, and the audience Canon is targeting for these isn't likely to be using them on R series cameras.

When Canon went to the EF mount on their EOS cameras, didn’t they appear to put their energy into making lenses for the EF mount, leaving behind their previous generation FD? Is it all a game?


We'll find out for sure before long, but Canon's new photo lenses will probably be all RF, and then you'll be vindicated. :)
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Apr 12, 2022 7:49 pm

rick.lang wrote:Canon has announced two new EF and PL Cine zoom lenses for ‘full frame’ if you’ll pardon my French. So much for the demise of the EF mount. I’d be disappointed if I had bought a recent Canon camera supporting their R mount. Each of the 20-50mm and 45-135mm T2.4 zooms cost $21,999 at B&H Photo.

https://www.fdtimes.com/2022/04/12/cano ... -ff-zooms/

"...Each lens weighs less than 8 lb and measures just under 10" in length"

8 lbs.? This is a feature? That's the weight of a gallon jug of water. Put that with your camera on the end of your glidecam, and watch how your $21,999 USD lens wants to mate with the ground.

So it resolves an 8K HDR image. If this lens is used on an URSA 12K, it will only use 44.5% of the available glass. Does that mean that it will only resolve a (8 x .445) 3.6K image in this situation?

We have 12K cameras available now, how long do we have to wait for a 12K lens?
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Apr 12, 2022 8:06 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:My guess is that it's a PL mount lens with an EF option, since it's a cine lens and not a stills lens… and the audience Canon is targeting for these isn't likely to be using them on R series cameras…
Canon's new photo lenses will probably be all RF, and then you'll be vindicated. :)


You’re right. Thanks for the comfort of a rationale mind. Just me being outrageous!
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rick.lang

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Apr 12, 2022 8:09 pm

dondidnod wrote:… We have 12K cameras available now, how long do we have to wait for a 12K lens?


That’s the spirit! All the best.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Apr 13, 2022 2:56 pm

dondidnod wrote:We have 12K cameras available now, how long do we have to wait for a 12K lens?


There's no such thing as an 8K or 12K lens. Lenses don't have resolution. That's more stupid marketing speak. It's like having a "digital" tripod.

You can measure resolving power usually expressed as MTF, but of course that's only one of MANY optical variables that are important to image makers. A lot of lenses that are high MTF lenses aren't that beloved by image makers unless they shoot a lot of images with interleaved black and white lines....

https://www.edmundoptics.com/knowledge- ... tf-curves/

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Apr 14, 2022 1:40 am

I like that one, JB!
Now I know why there's so much shaky handheld crap on TV now, they went digital and can't get tripods ;-)

BTW, in the early days of digital cameras, some manufacturers like Canon were marketing digital lenses. Fun fact:
Actually, our 'digital' cameras are analog, while opto-chemical photography was digital in a certain way.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Apr 14, 2022 9:57 am

They're all digital according to quantum mechanics
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Apr 14, 2022 11:58 am

At that level, yes.
But in classical physics, the sensor is delivering an analog electrical signal, while a silver halide crystal is either black or clear. Only the size of the crystals modulates the value.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Apr 14, 2022 5:24 pm

John Brawley wrote:There's no such thing as an 8K or 12K lens. Lenses don't have resolution. That's more stupid marketing speak. It's like having a "digital" tripod.

You can measure resolving power usually expressed as MTF, but of course that's only one of MANY optical variables that are important to image makers. A lot of lenses that are high MTF lenses aren't that beloved by image makers unless they shoot a lot of images with interleaved black and white lines....


Very well put JB!

I can support this with my experience of B4 lenses for broadcast, that do use this kind of marketing. When HD came in Larry Page of Canon went to great lengths to explain that 'SD' lenses no longer would work, that they were totally unusable... without so much as ever producing a single MTF chart. I had 4 such lenses each initially acquired for around 10K, and I sold them for a song. Having recently bought the Broadcast G2 I acquired a cheap SD lens from eBay - yes you can see MTF roll off before HD rez, compared to HD B4s, but there is still resolution well into the 4K arena and the lens looks great, even though I didn't buy it for serious work.

Now Canon and Fujinon market both 4K and 8K B4 lenses, particularly in the large expensive box lens category and I call part BS on them. Glass is glass, it is not a sensor, it is not an OLPF but it does have limitations, not easily defined by definitive marketing designations of resolution and it is very expensive to deliver very very high MTF without aberrations, across a wide range of f stops. This is why I keep saying justifying FF and beyond for uber resolution benefits, is of dubious merit.

People will say, "But stills photography has used such lenses for years on very large format cameras"... Yes they have but stills photography has often the luxury to work at very small apertures and long exposures without diffraction, impossible for motion picture work. Some of these same lenses will demonstrate the physical limits of their designs when pushed to the edges of large apertures and fall apart sooner.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Apr 14, 2022 6:07 pm

Having a sensor out resolve a lens is a good thing as it eliminates moiré and aliasing. I've got 50+ year old lenses that out resolve 9k res on my 61mp Sony stills camera and I have to stop down past F8 to kill the artefacts.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 18, 2022 3:20 pm

FullFrame with global shutter and SPAD (single-photon avalanche diode ) -with 3d / depth map - tof time of flights - tech. would be interesting for vfx purpose. and that 12K rgb (60fps) sensor would be lovely :)

http://jultika.oulu.fi/files/nbnfi-fe2020110589372.pdf

Canon did release some spad sensor lately
https://global.canon/en/news/2021/20211215.html
https://ymcinema.com/2021/05/31/more-in ... -24000fps/


I can always dream.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 2:31 pm

I've been thinking about the Full Frame argument and how other manufacturers have handled it.

with Mirrorless camera makers and Cine Camera makers, there's plenty of FF cameras out there.
In fact, it was harder to find a manufacturer that DOESN'T have a Full Frame sensor: Blackmagic.

Now i totally understand about the unimportance of using Full Frame/ Vista Vision-sized sensors. Cinema has flourished prior to that sensor tech, and so yada yada yada.

But by NOT offering a FF/VV Camera, are they falling behind 'trends'? Gah, i hate that i have to say that. Cause culture has such a short shelf life now. Commercials were being pumped out left and right using the Alexa Mini w/ 2x Anamorphics. Now it seems there's so many commercials using LF sensors and wide angle lenses and getting really close to subjects.

I REALLY hope BMD doesn't fall behind, not in FF/VV sensors, but by being on the cusp of having people clammer over their new releases. The Pocket 6k Pro is WILDLY popular still, and it has become one of my favorite cameras so far.
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The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 4:37 pm

Good points, Adam. It’s very difficult to know what Grant Petty will decide. One option: continue to cede the LF frame size to existing manufacturers while continuing to enhance the 6K/4K products and capabilities up to a fat Super35 and down to a Super16. That’s still a large market st this time. It’s likely a larger market than the LF market for years to come.

The Dual ISO sensors are very popular but BMD has no control over those specs currently. They do have control over their own 12K sensor technology and one can’t help but think that another camera using a smaller or larger version of that sensor technology (and unique CFA) must be in development. The big question: will BMD prioritize greater dynamic range or continuous auto focus)?

Pick one (all sensors RGBWWW CFA):

Large Format
A) 16K LF 36.0448mm 2.2 micron pitch (with continuous auto focus?)

B) 8K LF 36.0448mm 4.4 micron pitch (with 15+ stops dynamic range?)

C) 6K LF 36.0448mm 5.867 micron pitch (with 16+ stops dynamic range?)

Super35
D) 6K S35 27.0336mm 4.4 micron pitch (with 15+ stops dynamic range)

E) 12K S35 27.0336mm 2.2 micron pitch (the current camera with added continuous auto focus)

Mirrorless/Pocket or Box
F) 4K 18.0224mm 4.4 micron pitch (15 stops dynamic range)

G) 8K 18.0224mm 2.2 micron pitch (with continuous auto focus).

Edit suggested by Jeffrey:
Super16 mFT
H) 6K 13.5168mm 2.2 micron pitch 15 stops dynamic range.
Last edited by rick.lang on Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 5:04 pm

There's no way they're going to get 15 true stops in cameras at these prices. Except for Arri, nobody has topped the original Alexa, which came in 14-14.5 if measured rigorously, in over 10 years. Canon is likely the winner at the lower end, but those cine cameras are still significantly more expensive than BMD's.

Continuous AF may also present the insuperable. A small company likely has no choice but to license it, to be competitive. But will the market bear those costs?

Cameras seem to be going the way of commodities -- lenses with computers attached, with relatively few companies being able to sustain manufacture and marketing. The unique value that BMD provided in past years is no longer so unique. It's a hard business.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 5:18 pm

John Paines wrote:There's no way they're going to get 15 true stops in cameras at these prices. Except for Arri, nobody has topped the original Alexa,


I highly doubt that, i'm pretty sure there will be a cheap camera that has true 15 stops of dynamic range. and one of the reasons why alexa has such a high dynmaic range is because their sensors uses a technology called dual gain architecture. It takes two images of different exposures, at the same time, put them together. Just like how canon just recently implemented in their cameras(Dual Gain Output).

from Arri, "The Dual Gain Architecture simultaneously provides two separate read-out paths from each pixel with different amplification. The first path contains the regular, highly amplified signal. The second path contains a signal with lower amplification to capture the information that is clipped in the first path. Both paths feed into the camera's A/D converters, delivering a 14-bit image for each path. These images are then combined into a single 16-bit high dynamic range image. This method enhances low light performance and prevents the highlights from being clipped, thereby significantly extending the dynamic range of the image."

so having large photosites, plus dual gain technology allows them to achieve high dynamic range. Which shouldn't make the camera $75K, I mean canon has dgo and their camera is $6K
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 5:41 pm

Chris Shivers wrote:
John Paines wrote:There's no way they're going to get 15 true stops in cameras at these prices. Except for Arri, nobody has topped the original Alexa,


I highly doubt that, i'm pretty sure there will be a cheap camera that has true 15 stops of dynamic range. and one of the reasons why alexa has such a high dynmaic range is because their sensors uses a technology called dual gain architecture.



Many BMD cameras also use dual gain sensors, including their very first camera and the OG pocket.

The G2 is a dual gain sensor.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 5:58 pm

Kim Janson wrote:But I that the same thing. As I understand BMD has some deeper level gain setting with two levels, but only one of them can be used at one time.




You're talking about dual ISO vs Dual gain.

Yes, the BMD dual gain are the same as the way Arri have their dual gain sensors. The two exposures are combined into a higher (more than 16 bit lin) bit depth image before being encoded back down into a 16 bit lin / 12 bit LOG image.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 6:15 pm

Hey Rick,
How about:
H) Pocket 6K super16, 2.2 um pitch, MFT mount

and I'll go for the better and less expensive manual focus.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 6:40 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Many BMD cameras also use dual gain sensors, including their very first camera and the OG pocket.

The G2 is a dual gain sensor.

JB


do they, i haven't seen them talk about it in their specs? Does the 12k also have this technology or is it just in the G2
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 7:05 pm

Chris Shivers wrote:I highly doubt that, i'm pretty sure there will be a cheap camera that has true 15 stops of dynamic range.


"Pretty sure"? On what basis? The Alexa came out around 2010. Nobody (but Arri) has matched it for DR since, and not for lack of trying, and at far higher prices than BMDs. Those extra 2-3 stops are very expensive to engineer. Cinema doesn't require those stops, and nobody delivers graded Alexa material with 14 stops present anyway, but we're talking about numbers, and those are the numbers.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 7:52 pm

John Paines wrote: Cinema doesn't require those stops, and nobody delivers graded Alexa material with 14 stops present anyway, but we're talking about numbers, and those are the numbers.
Just because there won't be 14 stops in the finished image (though current HDR10 is already 12+ stops), doesn't mean that there is no value to higher dynamic range capture. The stops captured by a camera sensor are not all equally good. They get increasingly noisy and are derived from fewer linear code values the farther down from sensor saturation (clipping) that you go. In general, the more dynamic range the camera system can capture, the higher quality finished result that can be delivered (assuming proper exposure, of course). Hence, with the Alexa 35, ARRI invested a lot of time and effort to expanding the recorded dynamic range to 17 stops. They prioritized dynamic range over sensor size and K count, with good reason IMHO.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 8:05 pm

Jeffrey D Mathias wrote:Hey Rick,
How about:
H) Pocket 6K super16, 2.2 um pitch, MFT mount...


I see that as more likely a window option on the 8K offering, but I’ll add it to the list.
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