Blackmagic Forum

BMPCC which Vari ND Filter and why?
Although this may be relevant to the BMCC as well.

I'd been thinking of
Tiffen 77mm Variable Neutral Density Filter
Light Craft Workshop 77mm Fader ND Digi Pro-HD Filter

I've read what manufacturers claim as well as some reviews but I'm wondering what people are using here and why they've chosen what they've chosen.

I had a LCW MKII for my DSLR, im sure it affected the image quality.

I bought a Tiffen Vari ND for my Pocket and im happy with it.

I own the GenusTech Eclipse ND Fader and the Light Craft Workshop Fader ND MKii.

I prefer the GenusTech as it's built much better and has less colour cast.

I use mine with an IR Cut filter.

adamroberts wrote:I own the GenusTech Eclipse ND Fader and the Light Craft Workshop Fader ND MKii.

I prefer the GenusTech as it's built much better and has less colour cast.

I use mine with an IR Cut filter.

What IR Cut you use Adam?

I use a Hoya UV / IR Cut with the Fader ND. This one:
http://amzn.to/1bRhaVZ

Only use it for run and gun stuff. Otherwise I use 4x4 Formatt Hitech IRND's in a matte box.

I also recently got the Genus Eclipse ND fader and Hoya UV / IR Cut filters. Love them! One thing to note though is that if you get the 77mm version of the Genus Eclipse, the outer filter diameter is 82mm, so you'd need to get a 82mm IR cut filter.

adamroberts wrote:I use a Hoya UV / IR Cut with the Fader ND. This one:
http://amzn.to/1bRhaVZ

Only use it for run and gun stuff. Otherwise I use 4x4 Formatt Hitech IRND's in a matte box.

The 4x4 is the same Setup is use to shoot with the BMC

For the pocket i'm trying to build a really NEAT small RIG. So or I find a very small MatteBox (but a quality one) or I will go with the circular filters with a big lens hood (kind of)

Seems the Genus Eclipse 77mm is completely out of stock
http://www.genustech.tv/collections/gen ... fader-77mm

Genustech Eclipse - the best vari ND there is. Worth waiting for.

When you order get the option with the rubber hood. It fits 82mmm which are hard to find.

The GenusTech is available in several sizes. I bought a smaller one because it suited the majority of my lenses.
Of course, the bigger the better.
I don't have an IR filter yet, but I've managed some nice footage using the genustech on it's own in bright sunshine.

MMedia wrote:I had a LCW MKII for my DSLR, im sure it affected the image quality.

I bought a Tiffen Vari ND for my Pocket and im happy with it.

I have the Lightcraft digi pro. It is a superior design to the LCW MarkII. Lightcraft has comparative tests with other top faders on their web site to view and I am quite happy with it

Before Genustech there was Genus. Before the the Eclipse Fader there was the Fader. Is this just a branding question or are they two completely different products?

There is an old Genus / Genustech ND Fader. Only the 'Eclipse ND Fader' seems to be good, as the old Fader had some colour cast issues as you can see in Dave Dougdale's comparison video (the Genus ND fader he has is the old version, non-Eclipse):

I use the B+W XS-Pro/Nano-MC ND. I compared this vari-ND filter with my Schneider 4x5.65 glass and it faired very well in terms of color cast and retained sharpness. No vignetting at 24 mm full frame. In fact, I just shot some BMCC footage using the filter with my Canon 24-70 and was very pleased.

Check out Dave Dugdale's review of NDs on Learning DSLR video (see above). He did a nice job comparing quite a few vari-ND filters.

The Genustech Eclipse is a new version - much improved.

In fact in reviews it often beats the Heliopan. I may buy a second one.

Get the 77mm whatever you do. Then buy step up rings for every lens and a generic 77mm lens caps. All your lenses now match and you can switch easily.

So I'm torn between the new
Lightcraft Workshop ND DIGI Pro HD
http://www.lightcraftworkshop.com/fader ... round.html

and Genustech Eclipse
http://www.genustech.tv/collections/gen ... fader-77mm

It seems the LWC DIGI is much improved over previous versions and supposedly remains reasonably sharp at longer focal lengths... just as Genustech Eclipse is better than older versions. Wish there were some head to head using these newer versions. LWC has comparisons which hint at the competitors but they may not be current versions either. Genustech Eclipse is back in stock at least.

Yet, some people are happy with "old reliable" Tiffen.

Cool . . . thanks for the heads up. I got IRND Formatt's for my mattebox and am really happy with them. But a 4X5.65 mattebox is fairly big. Don't get me wrong, a perfect tool when size and weight are not a factor. Kind of like a view camera compared with a Leica. Both great tools for different jobs. So for the pocket small lenses and a variable ND for me.

adamroberts wrote:I use a Hoya UV / IR Cut with the Fader ND. This one:
http://amzn.to/1bRhaVZ

Only use it for run and gun stuff. Otherwise I use 4x4 Formatt Hitech IRND's in a matte box.

Hi Adam. Is Hoya IR/UV clean?, or have some contamination?

Manu Gil wrote:Is Hoya IR/UV clean?, or have some contamination?

ND filters have 'contamination', as in, they often create a brown-ish colour cast. IR filters are used to lessen this.

Tiffen or LCW? Definitely Tiffen.

From the 3 or 4 tests I have seen, Genus Eclipse, Tiffen, and Heliopan seem to be good choices, though the Heliopan actually seems to introduce moiré, not sure why. The old LCW looked terrible, though I haven't seen any examples or comparisons of their new model.

Christian Schmeer wrote:

Manu Gil wrote:Is Hoya IR/UV clean?, or have some contamination?

ND filters have 'contamination', as in, they often create a brown-ish colour cast. IR filters are used to lessen this.

Thanks Christian. My question is the hoya ir / uv.

Has anyone used the SchneiderTrue-Match Vari-ND or know of a review/comparison?

Unfortunately only one size (77mm) and front is not threaded (B&H description is wrong).

Manu Gil wrote: Is Hoya IR/UV clean?, or have some contamination?

From my use it's been clean. Even when use only in its own I'm not seeing and colour casts.

Steve Wake wrote:Has anyone used the SchneiderTrue-Match Vari-ND or know of a review/comparison?

Unfortunately only one size (77mm) and front is not threaded (B&H description is wrong).

@ Steve ... See my post above. I believe the B+W XS-Pro/Nano-MC ND have the same glass. I have the 82 mm and I really like it. BTW, all NDs have some color cast. Matthew Duclos and I have run experiments on even the most expensive Schneider glass. I desided to go with the B+W because I need the larger size and use stepdown rings to 77mm. I believe it has front threads. I can check if you like. It's way better than the Heliopan (which I used to own) in my opinion.

adamroberts wrote:

Manu Gil wrote: Is Hoya IR/UV clean?, or have some contamination?

From my use it's been clean. Even when use only in its own I'm not seeing and colour casts.

Thanks Adam.I'm thinking about buying Hoya or Heliopan (ir/uv filter)

Steve Wake wrote:Has anyone used the SchneiderTrue-Match Vari-ND or know of a review/comparison?

Unfortunately only one size (77mm) and front is not threaded (B&H description is wrong).

I have this one in shipping now, gonna test against Tiffens IR ND that i have, will let know next week. I got it because it has widest range so hopefully there ll be less cast at strongest settings ill need.

Thanks Scott and Sasha. I'm not in a hurry. B+W with MRC has always been my favorite for stills. I think I'll often need more than 5-6 stops, though. Can you stack a Vari ND with a 0.9 ND? Would you need to add a IR cut filter to the stack?

Sasha, I'll be interested in your opinion of the Schneider, but the lack of front threads and no smaller sizes is troubling to me.

Steve ... Many of your questions can be answered by Ryan Avery at B+W/Schneider in LA. His number is 818-766-3715. He's a great guy and very helpful. Give him a ring.

Generally, Steve, for anything over a ND.9 I would start using NDIR filters. My own set runs from NDIR1.2 to NDIR2.1 with normal NDs for the lowers.

AdrianSierkowski wrote:Generally, Steve, for anything over a ND.9 I would start using NDIR filters. My own set runs from NDIR1.2 to NDIR2.1 with normal NDs for the lowers.

Thanks, everyone for the advice.

Adrian, I've read that Tiffen IRND's match up the best with the BMCC (and presumably the BMPCC) sensor. Would you care to say what brand of IRND you use?

Adam, have you done any IR tests at various amounts of ND with your combo?

Hoya's a bit of a sketchy brand in my experience (several copies of NDs, etc.), but I would be curious to see how your combo works.

I'm probably one of the biggest detractors of Fader NDs, for many reasons: image softening, bokeh, color casts... but by far the IR pollution. A reminder (not to you Adam, but in response to another post above), IR pollution is not the same as color cast.

I've had some time with Schneider Platinums and to me, they actually seem to be better all around on the 2.5K and the Pocket Camera versus the Tiffen WW set, but haven't done any side by sides as it takes a lot of time to organize brands, controls, space, and post. Still trying to prepare this.

Because of the Platinum's high cost, though -- I think a set of 77mm IR Platinum's would be around 1,200.00 or more, I'm finally taking a look at an IR + Fader Combo, as dreadful as it feels.

But, I can't seem to find any tests of the IR + Fader (Tiffen or Genustech ideally) combo. You know, skin, color charts, and various black fabrics. Actually, not surprising because it just takes a lot of time to do.

As far as faders go, it seems that the Tiffen is likely the best option?

AbelCine did these IR tests with various cameras and filters. Note that specific filters seem to fair better on specific cameras.

Sasha Gorev wrote:

Steve Wake wrote:Has anyone used the SchneiderTrue-Match Vari-ND or know of a review/comparison?

Unfortunately only one size (77mm) and front is not threaded (B&H description is wrong).

I have this one in shipping now, gonna test against Tiffens IR ND that i have, will let know next week. I got it because it has widest range so hopefully there ll be less cast at strongest settings ill need.

So i got my filters and did a quick test with only one lens (Sigma 17-50 which i think is very sharp) that i'd be using it most for RunGun. Surprisingly for me i didnt notice huge difference at 17mm in loss of sharpness thought at 50 its there. For the Vary i didnt put the IR filter since the T1 Tiffen that i got together with Schneider, has NO front thread . However there's a way to stuck it permanently by removing filter holding ring and screwing on Vary ND.
BTW does it make difference where IR placed? Before or after ND? anyone?
I will try again tomorrow with Tokina 11-16 and see how it performs on wider lens, but have a bad expectation as it showed uneven darkening across the image already on half strengths on 60D. So far its kinda disappointing as Schneider is most expensive Vary ND out there and id expect it to be very different from Polaroid. Dunno... Most probably ill send it back, will get another Tiffen IR ND 1.8 and im covered for most scenarios.
Has anyone tried stacking Tiffen Vary on IR ND? Is it sharp?

Heres this comparison,no science there, straight forward Let me guys know what you think. What am i missing?

Kholi wrote:I'm finally taking a look at an IR + Fader Combo, as dreadful as it feels.

I'm at a similar place, mostly for the pocket cam where having multiple ND's just feels like it defeats the purpose and is too slow for how i want to work with that cam.

Frank did some basic testing of the genus vs heliopan, it made me interested in the heliopan IR as well:

http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/201 ... s-eclipse/

By the way, did you ever get the xumes for quick changing of filters? My concern about them is i often stack so would i need adapters front and back on every filter just incase?

Getting good results with the Eclipse at mild settings here. i would add the heliopan digital filter, but it doesn't seem to be available in Australia.

Sasha Gorev wrote:
So i got my filters and did a quick test with only one lens (Sigma 17-50 which i think is very sharp) that i'd be using it most for RunGun. Surprisingly for me i didnt notice huge difference at 17mm in loss of sharpness thought at 50 its there. For the Vary i didnt put the IR filter since the T1 Tiffen that i got together with Schneider, has NO front thread . However there's a way to stuck it permanently by removing filter holding ring and screwing on Vary ND.
BTW does it make difference where IR placed? Before or after ND? anyone?
I will try again tomorrow with Tokina 11-16 and see how it performs on wider lens, but have a bad expectation as it showed uneven darkening across the image already on half strengths on 60D. So far its kinda disappointing as Schneider is most expensive Vary ND out there and id expect it to be very different from Polaroid. Dunno... Most probably ill send it back, will get another Tiffen IR ND 1.8 and im covered for most scenarios.
Has anyone tried stacking Tiffen Vary on IR ND? Is it sharp?

Heres this comparison,no science there, straight forward Let me guys know what you think. What am i missing?

Thanks, Sasha.
First, since you were in your office I assume that means you were shooting through a window. Does the window itself have coatings that might be blocking IR, in addition to some IR blocking inherent in the glass itself? If so, then the test is not valid regarding IR pollution.
Second, this was tested on a D60 APS, correct?
Third, from the description in Vimeo I guess you had the Schneider set for 2.1 or 7 stops, is that correct?
Fourth, any more and you got the X effect. Did you get the X at 50, or just at the wide end?
Fifth, this confirms another test on BMCUser that showed the IR filtration in the Tiffen 2.1 is not adequate - even on a D60 which has an IR filter. The difference with the Tiffen 2.1 is much more dramatic on the BMC.

I think your test makes me not want the Hoya or the Polaroid due to image degradation. I can't tell a lot of difference in fine detail from the video, but the loss of contrast is pretty obvious to me. The Tiffen 1.2 looks good (even though its a little hard to judge since the exposure was set lower). But to me, the Schneider wins. Even though they don't mention IR filtration specifically in their literature the Schneider is very impressive to me in that regard. Even if your office window was helping out it did better than the Tiffen 2.1 and seemed to do at least as well as the Tiffen 1.2. Unfortunately for my needs, the Schneider is huge and has no front threads. I contacted them about plans to make smaller models with front threads and the response was that the next one will be an 82mm.

EDIT: The IR filter can go anywhere, according to physics. There may be some conventions regarding placement, but I don't see why it would make a difference. In fact, it would be interesting to see if it makes a difference with the Schneider since it already seems to have IR filtration.

If you use a mirror IR filter (like Tiffen), I'd put it in front to avoid IR light bouncing around between surfaces.

Interestring reviewer says Tiffen Vary ND Filter goes a couple more stops before getting the "cross."

Yeah, I have the tiffen Vari-ND. I've never actually seen the "x" people speak of. Though now I've said that, I've probably jinxed myself.

Steve Wake wrote:

Sasha Gorev wrote:
So i got my filters and did a quick test with only one lens (Sigma 17-50 which i think is very sharp) that i'd be using it most for RunGun. Surprisingly for me i didnt notice huge difference at 17mm in loss of sharpness thought at 50 its there. For the Vary i didnt put the IR filter since the T1 Tiffen that i got together with Schneider, has NO front thread . However there's a way to stuck it permanently by removing filter holding ring and screwing on Vary ND.
BTW does it make difference where IR placed? Before or after ND? anyone?
I will try again tomorrow with Tokina 11-16 and see how it performs on wider lens, but have a bad expectation as it showed uneven darkening across the image already on half strengths on 60D. So far its kinda disappointing as Schneider is most expensive Vary ND out there and id expect it to be very different from Polaroid. Dunno... Most probably ill send it back, will get another Tiffen IR ND 1.8 and im covered for most scenarios.
Has anyone tried stacking Tiffen Vary on IR ND? Is it sharp?

Heres this comparison,no science there, straight forward Let me guys know what you think. What am i missing?

Thanks, Sasha.
First, since you were in your office I assume that means you were shooting through a window. Does the window itself have coatings that might be blocking IR, in addition to some IR blocking inherent in the glass itself? If so, then the test is not valid regarding IR pollution.
Second, this was tested on a D60 APS, correct?
Third, from the description in Vimeo I guess you had the Schneider set for 2.1 or 7 stops, is that correct?
Fourth, any more and you got the X effect. Did you get the X at 50, or just at the wide end?
Fifth, this confirms another test on BMCUser that showed the IR filtration in the Tiffen 2.1 is not adequate - even on a D60 which has an IR filter. The difference with the Tiffen 2.1 is much more dramatic on the BMC.

I think your test makes me not want the Hoya or the Polaroid due to image degradation. I can't tell a lot of difference in fine detail from the video, but the loss of contrast is pretty obvious to me. The Tiffen 1.2 looks good (even though its a little hard to judge since the exposure was set lower). But to me, the Schneider wins. Even though they don't mention IR filtration specifically in their literature the Schneider is very impressive to me in that regard. Even if your office window was helping out it did better than the Tiffen 2.1 and seemed to do at least as well as the Tiffen 1.2. Unfortunately for my needs, the Schneider is huge and has no front threads. I contacted them about plans to make smaller models with front threads and the response was that the next one will be an 82mm.

EDIT: The IR filter can go anywhere, according to physics. There may be some conventions regarding placement, but I don't see why it would make a difference. In fact, it would be interesting to see if it makes a difference with the Schneider since it already seems to have IR filtration.

Hey Steve,
1. No it was shot through 100% clear mountain air;). I will do another test similar to AbelCine with Schneider with and without Tiffen T1.
2. It was shot on BMCC EF, additionally i tried Schneider also on 60D and X is there probably just as bad as Polarizer, though hard to tell exact degree on small screen. So it looks like the wider the lens and censor the more X you get. I didnt try on any longer then 50mm on BMCC.
3. Yes Schneider was set aprox 2.1, further then that its not usable for me due to uneven darkening.
4. @50 its not anymore X but uneven darkening, we seeing just the center i guess.
5. Havent seen that test, cant say anything.

This test makes me think that if i dont shoot long lens and if im on Run&Gun there's deff no critical difference to the cheapest VaryND available. Color is very similar, so the sharpness.(good screens here;) I almost never pulled out Hoya and Polarizer,(Hoya btw might ve been little overexposed hence loss of contrast) using whenever i could Tiffen 1.2, which is best in sharpness and color, 2.1 introduces alot of green but also very sharp.
Bottom line, Schneider doesnt work for me for the purpose i need at this price point,i hoped the difference will be much more dramatic, its bloody 400$!! . Id only use Vary when im chasing my subjects in and outdoor, in constant light change, mostly on 17-50.
I will try Tiffen Varry and ll see how it works, with and without T1

Kholi wrote: I'm finally taking a look at an IR + Fader Combo, as dreadful as it feels.

Ha! Can't believe I live to see this

No, really Kholi I'm more than happy with the Genus Eclipse or Heliopan and Helipoan IR combination.
Almost every clip I ever posted, since the days when the FS100 cam out, was shot with this combination.

Regarding sharpens and Macbeth: here is a chart for you: http://t.co/lKgoV1HO
You also may have a second look at my article: http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/201 ... s-eclipse/

As see the tendency in this thread/forum for the Genustech Eclipse.
Yet with a claim by one reviewer for greater usable range from the Tiffen. and with Lightcraft Workshop Digi-HD claim for sharpness on the telephoto side (which can be useful for the Pocket), I'd really hope for some side by side experiences or comparisons.

Sasha Gorev wrote:Hey Steve,
1. No it was shot through 100% clear mountain air;). I will do another test similar to AbelCine with Schneider with and without Tiffen T1.
2. It was shot on BMCC EF, additionally i tried Schneider also on 60D and X is there probably just as bad as Polarizer, though hard to tell exact degree on small screen. So it looks like the wider the lens and censor the more X you get. I didnt try on any longer then 50mm on BMCC.
3. Yes Schneider was set aprox 2.1, further then that its not usable for me due to uneven darkening.
4. @50 its not anymore X but uneven darkening, we seeing just the center i guess.
5. Havent seen that test, cant say anything.

This test makes me think that if i dont shoot long lens and if im on Run&Gun there's deff no critical difference to the cheapest VaryND available. Color is very similar, so the sharpness.(good screens here;) I almost never pulled out Hoya and Polarizer,(Hoya btw might ve been little overexposed hence loss of contrast) using whenever i could Tiffen 1.2, which is best in sharpness and color, 2.1 introduces alot of green but also very sharp.
Bottom line, Schneider doesnt work for me for the purpose i need at this price point,i hoped the difference will be much more dramatic, its bloody 400$!! . Id only use Vary when im chasing my subjects in and outdoor, in constant light change, mostly on 17-50.
I will try Tiffen Varry and ll see how it works, with and without T1

Thanks, Sasha. Sorry about my negative assumptions.

For now, I'm just getting a solid Tiffen 1.2 IRND. I'm hoping I can stack a B+W VariND on it, but I'll do some more testing and hope for some side-by-side comparisons of the right combination of vary ND's. If all else is equal I'd like to go with B+W just because I know they are high quality, durable and relatively easy to clean.

Frank's tip about rotating the Vari ND to minimize polarization is interesting. And nice to see that a pro stacks these.

Frank Glencairn wrote:

Kholi wrote: I'm finally taking a look at an IR + Fader Combo, as dreadful as it feels.

Ha! Can't believe I live to see this

No, really Kholi I'm more than happy with the Genus Eclipse or Heliopan and Helipoan IR combination.
Almost every clip I ever posted, since the days when the FS100 cam out, was shot with this combination.

Regarding sharpens and Macbeth: here is a chart for you: http://t.co/lKgoV1HO
You also may have a second look at my article: http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/201 ... s-eclipse/

Hahaha. Me either, man. I looked into the TrueNDs and they look perfect, but will require a mattebox at all times and quite the monetary investment. I could always put them in the rental house so that they're working when I'm not, but man... the set runs over 2,000.00

The Tiffen WW NDs aren't satisfying for me, every so often the 1.2 lets too much IR in and completely damages skin, I can't stand when that happens. This reminds me of trying to find IR for RED.

Sasha mentions that there isn't a thread at the front of the Schneider Vari ND, that's rough.

Did the Eclipse clear up the color cast from the previous version?

I really wish the Tiffen's worked more consistently. Aside from the green cast, they're also relatively affordable, with the Schneider 77mm counterparts costing nearly double I believe.

Frank Glencairn wrote:

Kholi wrote: I'm finally taking a look at an IR + Fader Combo, as dreadful as it feels.

Ha! Can't believe I live to see this

No, really Kholi I'm more than happy with the Genus Eclipse or Heliopan and Helipoan IR combination.
Almost every clip I ever posted, since the days when the FS100 cam out, was shot with this combination.

Regarding sharpens and Macbeth: here is a chart for you: http://t.co/lKgoV1HO
You also may have a second look at my article: http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/201 ... s-eclipse/

Thanks for this link Frank. I was just about ready to ask the question of which IR cut filter I should stack on the Eclipse. Any other thoughts out there?

Morning all!

So going to take the plunge and get the Eclipse 77mm vari nd and also the hoya ir cut off filter.

So am I right in thinking I need the 82mm hoya to fit on the outside of the 77mm eclipse?

Any good Vari-ND filters that start below ND2 to not take it off all the time?
Any Vari-ND filters with integrated IR filter?
77mm is probably way too large for me. 46-55mm would work much better in run&gun

Finally bought the Genustech Eclipse 77mm.
Outer thread is 82mm.

77mm is probably way too large for me. 46-55mm would work much better in run&gun

Which means you'll never buy a lens with a thread larger than 58mm (I assume that's what you meant). Either you'll have to buy another VariND or limit your lens options. VariNDs and step up rings are light so I don't know what your "run & gun" limitation is. I also do run and gun it it would seem faster to me to have step up rings going to 77mm on all my lenses. Allows me to switch lens and add the VariND fairly quickly sense all the lenses now have same 77mm thread.

Of course may you want to buy a VariND for each of your threads but that's going to be a lot more money than buying step up rings. Yes that would save you time swapping VariNDs.

CaptainHook wrote:

Kholi wrote:I'm finally taking a look at an IR + Fader Combo, as dreadful as it feels.

I'm at a similar place, mostly for the pocket cam where having multiple ND's just feels like it defeats the purpose and is too slow for how i want to work with that cam.

Frank did some basic testing of the genus vs heliopan, it made me interested in the heliopan IR as well:

http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/201 ... s-eclipse/

By the way, did you ever get the xumes for quick changing of filters? My concern about them is i often stack so would i need adapters front and back on every filter just incase?

Cap, just scanned this thread again for some quick answers and didn't realize you posted here.

I did not get the Xumes but after doing the Hoya tests, it'll be the next thing I get into. As much as I want the simplicity of a Vari-ND + IR combo, I'm too neurotic about the color casts and IR now to spend 500.00 on something that I already know will force me into a color cast, and likely a softer image.

So, I'm going to source Xume adapters, try to get the entire set of Hoya ProNDs and then look into the Hoya or Heliopan IR Cut.

I hear you on stacking, especially if you want to use any diffusion... that could mean stacking an IR, ND, and Diff on the front of one lens, sounds heavy.

Small aside: I mentioned this elsewhere, but the IR is less bothersome when it isn't served with an inherent color cast affecting channels and overall color separation.