The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

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dn9909

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The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 7:00 pm

And the best ones don't even cover all the best codecs, framerates, and compression rates on the Pocket 6K!

That's it; that's all I wanted to say.
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John Brawley

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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 7:08 pm

dn9909 wrote:And the best ones don't even cover all the best codecs, framerates, and compression rates on the Pocket 6K!

That's it; that's all I wanted to say.



Actually I think the cost of these cameras is ridiculous. It’s creating a false expectation of costs for other supporting equipment is of a similar price.

Look at the cost of an Arri 1TB Codex.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... e_1tb.html

JB
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rick.lang

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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 7:14 pm

Thanks, John. That’s it, that’s all I wanted to say.
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Derfla

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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 8:52 pm

John Brawley wrote:
dn9909 wrote:And the best ones don't even cover all the best codecs, framerates, and compression rates on the Pocket 6K!

That's it; that's all I wanted to say.



Actually I think the cost of these cameras is ridiculous. It’s creating a false expectation of costs for other supporting equipment is of a similar price.

Look at the cost of an Arri 1TB Codex.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... e_1tb.html

JB


Ooh, but it comes with such a nice case :o <sarcasm>

That price is beyond ridiculous. That's ARRI profiting from their name obviously.
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Derfla

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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 9:09 pm

dn9909 wrote:And the best ones don't even cover all the best codecs, framerates, and compression rates on the Pocket 6K!

That's it; that's all I wanted to say.


Sometimes if you shop around you can get a decent deal. I asked B&H if they would price match a site that was selling an Angelbird 512GB Match Pack for the Blackmagic Design URSA Mini (2 x 256GB) for $339.90. It was about a $140 savings. But your right, the prices are ridiculous when you consider a Samsung 1TB ssd will cost you about $100.

I purchased the Angelbirds because they allow me to close the monitor when I don't need it. It also makes it easier to balance on a gimbal.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 10:34 pm

John Brawley wrote:
dn9909 wrote:And the best ones don't even cover all the best codecs, framerates, and compression rates on the Pocket 6K!

That's it; that's all I wanted to say.



Actually I think the cost of these cameras is ridiculous. It’s creating a false expectation of costs for other supporting equipment is of a similar price.

Look at the cost of an Arri 1TB Codex.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... e_1tb.html

JB
Well, if you’re spending $40K+ on an Arri then that Codex is nothing really.


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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 16, 2021 11:21 pm

timbutt2 wrote:Well, if you’re spending $40K+ on an Arri then that Codex is nothing really.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most folks won't buy an Arri and these cards. They likely will rent it.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 1:32 am

Ellory Yu wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:Well, if you’re spending $40K+ on an Arri then that Codex is nothing really.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most folks won't buy an Arri and these cards. They likely will rent it.

Ssshhh... I'm trying to get a Sugar Mamma who can buy me these nice toys.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 2:36 am

Derfla wrote:
That price is beyond ridiculous. That's ARRI profiting from their name obviously.


They're not made by Arri. They're made and sold by Codex. A different company.

https://codex.online/products/media/capture-drive

The point is that the qualified media like this has always been expensive.

CFAST is honestly CHEAP considering it offers similar performance.

BUT the cost for the BMD camera is so low it means people moan about the cost of something that's already "cheap" compared to the actual pro solutions.

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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 3:43 am

Just to put current costs of Cfast 2.0 in perspective, to be able to record 256GB of 10-bit 422 log on the Sony A7siii requires media that costs about twice the price of the 256GB Silicon Power Cfast 2.0 cards on BMD's supported list. (I know because I had to budget out a job recently that was weighing using a bunch of Sony A7siii a against using a bunch of BMD 4K Pockets).

So, on a BMD Pocket or URSA Mini Pro, you can record 12bit 444 log files (as that's what BRAW decodes to) on robust Cfast 2.0 cards for half the cost compared what you can get on the also new, also currently popular A7Siii (even though it only delivers 10bit 422).

That is a solid twofer.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 7:43 am

Seems every Youtube video of the Pocket cameras is full of people with Samsung T5's strapped to the top of the camera with a fragile USB cable dangling in space (followed by the inevitable complaints when the USB port can't take the pressure and gives up eventually).

As a percentage of the overall cost of a shooting package 2x 256GB CFast 2.0 cards really isn't that bad - around $400 - and that will get most people through a day of shooting (or dump cards at lunch) unless you're shooting events in low compression ratios.

To me it's a no brainer - the whole point of a camera that shoots RAW internally is lost by having a drive dangling on a cable where it can be bumped, dislodged or damaged. You have to backup footage anyway, so the idea of editing straight from the recording drive is sort of moot in my view. Just one perspective...
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 8:21 am

You can get now an Angelbird 1TB card for € 550.- ex VAT.
When the URSA Mini 4.6k came out, 256 GB cards were around $ 800
Now you can get 2 for € 378.-
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 8:26 am

I'd argue it depends on what you do ...

I pretty much only record at my workbench with the camera fixed on a tripod and I have the SSD fixed on the cage and the cable firmly held in place at both ends with clamps that take any mechanical stress should the cable get bumped.

It would definitely be another situation if I was running around outside all the time and hand holding or repositioning etc ... in a poorly controlled environment.

But then again there is already so many cables sticking out the camera side (HDMI monitor, mic audio input, external DC power) that I need a solid protection around all those connections already.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 3:08 pm

Yeah, what you do probably does have an impact. But for most working professional the shooting environment switches from interior location to exterior location to interior studio and so on and so forth. CFast to me has always been most efficient. Plus I can use my cards on the Canon C300ii and Arri Alexa Mini.

Part of my push for CFEXpress is that is the next generation of cards it seems. So I wouldn't be surprised if Arri goes that route just like Canon did with the C300iii.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 3:40 pm

If you can't afford the gold wash then stick with the bronze and clean your own wheels.

Good Luck
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 3:47 pm

I'd say used the right media for the project and/or what you are doing and the budget you have. Although I too like CFast cards, they are still costly. For small indie pictures with very slim budget, it is sometime unattainable - well, you can rent them. There are situations where CFast cards may be the only option. For example, there's no CFast in the market today that is able to record 4.6K @ 120fps in BRAW 3:1 or Q0 without drop frames. That is true with 6K @ 50fps using the same codec. On the UMP, you can use 2 CFast cards in dual mode to record 4.6K @ 120fps in BRAW 3:1 or Q0, but that means having to use 2 cards. Well, if money is no object, then that wouldn't be a problem. But there's a lot of folks like the OP here who finds the current pricing on CFast 2.0 cards, at least when compared to SSDs, are still ridiculously expensive.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 17, 2021 5:57 pm

11 minutes of 35mm film stock costs about $800. Then you have to develop it and scan it. How much of that would be used in the final production? Not much.

Everyone wants that "filmic, cinematic look" but seem unaware of how expensive and unreliable the process to get it once was. We used to pay an incredible amount of money for film stock — which at any moment could be faulty, exposed, or ruined in a million different ways — and then had to process it, view dailies, and so on and so forth. Not only did we have all those expenses and risks, but a single bad roll could derail a production and cost a small fortune to reshoot. I am very relieved to have left most of that behind, and, to keep me employed and my clients happy, will gladly pay a premium price for reliable CFast storage. It is still vastly cheaper than production used to be.

Even better, the cards will get continue to get cheaper.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Mar 18, 2021 12:56 am

Matt White wrote:11 minutes of 35mm film stock costs about $800. Then you have to develop it and scan it. How much of that would be used in the final production? Not much.

Everyone wants that "filmic, cinematic look" but seem unaware of how expensive and unreliable the process to get it once was. We used to pay an incredible amount of money for film stock — which at any moment could be faulty, exposed, or ruined in a million different ways — and then had to process it, view dailies, and so on and so forth. Not only did we have all those expenses and risks, but a single bad roll could derail a production and cost a small fortune to reshoot. I am very relieved to have left most of that behind, and, to keep me employed and my clients happy, will gladly pay a premium price for reliable CFast storage. It is still vastly cheaper than production used to be.

Even better, the cards will get continue to get cheaper.


Excellent!!! bringing folks back to how so lucky we are these days... and add in the limits and costs of physically editing film strips... and a/b decks for ugly tape editing degradation ... we have it sooo good!
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 11:58 am

I’m looking at getting the Angelbird 512GB CFast 2.0 cards for use with the Pocket 6k Pro. I trying to get an idea of the life expectancy of one of these cards in terms of how many times you can fill the card and reformat before you should look to replace it. This would allow me to get a rough estimate of how long they will last me based on how often I shoot.

I’ve tried researching it but I”m getting a lot of conflicting info and a lot of people are saying that the MTBF doesn’t really mean much in the real world.

I’d be really grateful to anyone who could share their experiences CFast cards in terms of life expectancy and when they replace them, just to give me some indication of what to expect. Many thanks.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 1:38 pm

Matthew_Lawrence wrote:
I’d be really grateful to anyone who could share their experiences CFast cards in terms of life expectancy and when they replace them, just to give me some indication of what to expect. Many thanks.


I've got CFcards I got back when they were first introduced from years ago and have been used many many times.

I've not had a single CFAST card fail.....hoping to not jinx myself!

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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 2:56 pm

With this type of technology, your cards may last longer than your camera.

My earliest Wise cards are five years old and show no signs of degradation with moderate use. Cables are a different story but not so serious in terms of financial impact. Best to buy from a manufacturer or vendor who stands behind them.

A few years ago I bought a Miele dishwasher which at the time was expected to be trouble-free for twenty years. My Miele had a serious failure shutting down operations in two or three days days which was embarrassing; the repair service replaced a part that he said was likely damaged in shipping and said the machine will likely last at least twenty years now... so far so good.

So with CFast2 cards, have a vendor who will replace the cards under warranty (or beyond the published warranty) and after that period you’ll be good hopefully.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 2:59 pm

I've been using the Silicon Power 256GB CFast 2.0 since the P4K release and never had any issues.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 3:22 pm

pnguyen720 wrote:I've been using the Silicon Power 256GB CFast 2.0 since the P4K release and never had any issues.

Have you tried using this card to record 4K DCI @ 60fps in 3:1 BRAW? If so, at what point did you start getting drop frames?
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 3:29 pm

The older 3600X of this Komputer Bay CFast card is on BMD's certified list for the UMP 4.6K G2. There is a newer, faster 3700X on Amazon and a 256Gb is reasonably priced. I can't find the 3600X so probably they have discontinued it.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 3:31 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
pnguyen720 wrote:I've been using the Silicon Power 256GB CFast 2.0 since the P4K release and never had any issues.

Have you tried using this card to record 4K DCI @ 60fps in 3:1 BRAW? If so, at what point did you start getting drop frames?


My usual is DCI 5:1 or Q5 and no problems there.

I've also recorded 60P at 3:1 for 90s and no problems there either.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 6:07 pm

John Brawley wrote:I've got CFcards I got back when they were first introduced from years ago and have been used many many times.

I've not had a single CFAST card fail.....hoping to not jinx myself!

JB

rick.lang wrote:With this type of technology, your cards may last longer than your camera.

pnguyen720 wrote:I've been using the Silicon Power 256GB CFast 2.0 since the P4K release and never had any issues.

This is certainly reassuring. Thanks John, Rick and Phong Nguyen for sharing your experiences.


rick.lang wrote:So with CFast2 cards, have a vendor who will replace the cards under warranty (or beyond the published warranty) and after that period you’ll be good hopefully.

Good tip. Thanks
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 6:16 pm

I saw this thread and thought it was a continuation of a similar one with a similar title from way back, when the Ursa Major was released, the first camera to use CFast. Back then the prices were 4-5x what they cost now... I thought it was an update/comparison of costs, the last thing I expected was someone saying that they're expensive now. :lol:

Also agree with JB, the fact that the cameras are the cheapest thing in the kit does not mean that the rest of the accessories should cost less. Different items, different tech, different worlds.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 12:51 am

Nick Gombinsky wrote:
Also agree with JB, the fact that the cameras are the cheapest thing in the kit does not mean that the rest of the accessories should cost less. Different items, different tech, different worlds.

I disagree. The camera is the core vehicle. Everything that attaches to or support it should cost less. Would you buy a car and expect the tires to cost more than the car? Anyway I think we can agree to disagree.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 8:08 am

Ellory Yu wrote:I disagree. The camera is the core vehicle. Everything that attaches to or support it should cost less.


That does not compute well. You can put your $2500 PCC6k Pro onto a tripod costing 2-5x more. You can add a lens costing 2-30x more. Why should the price of anything additional stay below the cost of the camera body? That does not make sense as everything is an instance of its own. Manufacturing costs are determined by labour, effort, material, complexity.

Ellory Yu wrote: Anyway I think we can agree to disagree.


In general: I really wish people would stop quoting this non-sense-sentence. It is just a gimmick to avoid further discussion when reality bites.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 10:29 am

Robert Niessner wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:I disagree. The camera is the core vehicle. Everything that attaches to or support it should cost less.


That does not compute well. You can put your $2500 PCC6k Pro onto a tripod costing 2-5x more. You can add a lens costing 2-30x more. Why should the price of anything additional stay below the cost of the camera body? That does not make sense as everything is an instance of its own. Manufacturing costs are determined by labour, effort, material, complexity.

Ellory Yu wrote: Anyway I think we can agree to disagree.


In general: I really wish people would stop quoting this non-sense-sentence. It is just a gimmick to avoid further discussion when reality bites.


Yeah buddy I think you're looking for reasons to bash his comment here...

He's clearly not talking about tripods or lenses.

If you don't think recording media is vastly over priced then I question your sanity :lol:

CFast media was bloody expensive.. It still is today for what you're getting.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 1:59 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:I disagree. The camera is the core vehicle. Everything that attaches to or support it should cost less.


That does not compute well. You can put your $2500 PCC6k Pro onto a tripod costing 2-5x more. You can add a lens costing 2-30x more. Why should the price of anything additional stay below the cost of the camera body? That does not make sense as everything is an instance of its own. Manufacturing costs are determined by labour, effort, material, complexity.

Ellory Yu wrote: Anyway I think we can agree to disagree.


In general: I really wish people would stop quoting this non-sense-sentence. It is just a gimmick to avoid further discussion when reality bites.

It is not a non-sense-sentence Robert. If I don't agree with the sentence or statement, I have all the rights to disagree, even if it does not compute well for you (or others). It does for me, within appropriate context, I don't care what everyone else say - that is my stance. Bashing me won't change my thinking.

Although I subscribed and succumbed to this crazy industry pricing and have some understanding of why it is, like expensive tripods, media, lenses, etc., it does not mean I will just agree to everything and anything they put out. Therefore to disagree is not a coupe-out or a gimmick. True, it may be to end discussion but not when reality bites, but when the opinions will not resolved to a common agreement. In the context of this post, it will not resolve to a common agreement because individuals have different views of the matter. And this is how democracy works too, at least in my part of the world.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 5:12 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
Nick Gombinsky wrote:
Also agree with JB, the fact that the cameras are the cheapest thing in the kit does not mean that the rest of the accessories should cost less. Different items, different tech, different worlds.

I disagree. The camera is the core vehicle. Everything that attaches to or support it should cost less. Would you buy a car and expect the tires to cost more than the car? Anyway I think we can agree to disagree.


The problem with this is you’re basically equating very different products. CFAST is basically a niche product with extremely specialized uses. It’s difficult to make, the manufacturing and design tolerances are very narrow (which is why so few cards are broadly approved for all recoding modes), and it simply isn’t getting bought in the kind of quantities that kick off profound economies of scale. In many ways, storage media like CFAST is kind of a technological miracle that makes cameras like URSA and the 6ks actually viable. The price reflects the roadblocks of manufacturing and physics.

Just because you undercut every other manufacturer significantly with one item in the acquisition food chain does NOT mean everything else you may need will follow suit. These cameras require premium gas to function correctly.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 6:34 pm

John Brawley wrote:
dn9909 wrote:And the best ones don't even cover all the best codecs, framerates, and compression rates on the Pocket 6K!

That's it; that's all I wanted to say.



Actually I think the cost of these cameras is ridiculous. It’s creating a false expectation of costs for other supporting equipment is of a similar price.

Look at the cost of an Arri 1TB Codex.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... e_1tb.html

JB


Exactly what we were led to believe until RED was exposed with their red mini mag. I personally think when it comes to anything used for filming, companies just increase the prices and blaim it on R & D.
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Derfla

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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 7:16 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote: Anyway I think we can agree to disagree.


In general: I really wish people would stop quoting this non-sense-sentence. It is just a gimmick to avoid further discussion when reality bites.
[/quote]

I am surprised by comment. Opinions are not gimmicks. If two people don't agree, that's perfectly OK. They can agree to disagree and move on. Sometimes healthy debates need to end that way. For example, if someone categorically stated that a particular piece of gear was "the best", many may not agree. There is nothing wrong with that is there? So in this case, if people think that certain items are priced "ridiculously", what's wrong with that? It's all just opinions. No right or wrong here.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 7:34 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:I disagree. The camera is the core vehicle. Everything that attaches to or support it should cost less.


That does not compute well. You can put your $2500 PCC6k Pro onto a tripod costing 2-5x more. You can add a lens costing 2-30x more. Why should the price of anything additional stay below the cost of the camera body? That does not make sense as everything is an instance of its own. Manufacturing costs are determined by labour, effort, material, complexity.

Ellory Yu wrote: Anyway I think we can agree to disagree.


In general: I really wish people would stop quoting this non-sense-sentence. It is just a gimmick to avoid further discussion when reality bites.

I do have some cfast cards as i can afford it but still think they are over priced

You really think evrything in a 1tb cfast card cost more than the component it cost to build a P4k (including sensor) or Macbook air or phones etc?
In your own opinion is a 960gb red mini mag really worth £2,350?
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 10:45 pm

Akpe Ododoru wrote:... In your own opinion is a 960gb red mini mag really worth £2,350?


We have so much to be thankful for and this is one example, thankful BMD cameras usually support user choice of media within limits.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 11:14 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
Nick Gombinsky wrote:
Also agree with JB, the fact that the cameras are the cheapest thing in the kit does not mean that the rest of the accessories should cost less. Different items, different tech, different worlds.

I disagree. The camera is the core vehicle. Everything that attaches to or support it should cost less. Would you buy a car and expect the tires to cost more than the car? Anyway I think we can agree to disagree.


A camera is just a box with a sensor or a box to put film in). The "core vehicle" to film making or photography has always been the lens which is why lenses often cost a lot more than cameras.

I have four KomputerBay 256Gb Cfast cards which are approved by Blackmagic. In total those four cost me around £600 which is a third of the cost of my camera but I can use them over and over again.

I grew up shooting Super 8mm film, and just about every penny I had in my youth went on film cartridges that lasted 3 minutes 20 seconds at best. And one use. Cfast cards are good value for money.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 11:19 pm

I'm going to convince Blackmagic that their next big cinema camera needs to use proprietary media that they can charge thousands of dollars for just like RED. That will end this complaining about the cost of CFast 2.0 cards.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 11:55 pm

Pete Tomkies wrote:A camera is just a box with a sensor or a box to put film in). The "core vehicle" to film making or photography has always been the lens which is why lenses often cost a lot more than cameras.

I agree with your statement about lenses. But one cannot exist without the other. So when I am taking about the basic premise of a camera, I am considering the lens to not be something that is adjunct. People, I think you have to look at my statement in the context of the post.

I have nothing against CFast cards. I think they are terrific. It is my opinion that they are costly compared to other digital media. I own and use them. But there is also the other side of this story. The film industry is plague with vendors and manufacturers, other than those that really does specialize products, who overprice everything because it has been the status quo.

Manufacturing electronic devices, which most of the digital cameras (and equipment) are, is expensive when it is in the initial phase due to R&D and tooling. But once the die and operation is in place, the cost of generating the goods eventually decreases, and in large quantities, this is a dramatic decrease. Think computers, your DVD player, etc. And as I said, there are going to be specialize equipment that are not mass produced and that is the exception. However, those that are not the exception, like media, monitors, and the like are priced gouged by the makers and vendors - just because they can. A good example is BMD. BMD makes quality cinema cameras that I will say is at par with RED and Arri. BMD has it priced right. I don't have to explain myself - we all know and have seen this movie.

Let's talk about C-Fast cards. Did you know that there is only two or three fabricators (in China mostly) of the C-Fast cards? Sony, Angelbird, Lexar and the likes do not fabricate their cards. They assemble and package them. So why is it that a Sony or Angelbird much more expensive that a run-off-the-mill unknown brand on Amazon? It is about having to have higher margin in goods and profit because they inventory, guarantee numbers, and have limited distribution. Those run-off-the-mill brands do not have to guarantee numbers and have much lower labor cost in labor and just dump their media to markets as many as they can, with a very narrow margin. Sony and their likes pays the same as those run-of-the-mill so called manufacturers for the same C-Fast cards coming off the same fabricator's plant. In the end, everything really begins from just 2 or 3 fabricators.

I'm not trying to justify anything here, but just think about it. It is my opinion that there is still a huge margin that's just profit base and nothing to do with the source and making of the media itself. Food for thought here people.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 11:56 pm

timbutt2 wrote:I'm going to convince Blackmagic that their next big cinema camera needs to use proprietary media that they can charge thousands of dollars for just like RED. That will end this complaining about the cost of CFast 2.0 cards.

Good idea. "Greed is Good." Gordon Gecko. :lol: :lol:
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 12:39 am

Ellory Yu wrote:Let's talk about C-Fast cards. Did you know that there is only two or three fabricators (in China mostly) of the C-Fast cards? Sony, Angelbird, Lexar and the likes do not fabricate their cards. They assemble and package them.


That's wrong. They buy the flash memory. But there is more to a CFast card than just to assemble and package them. You need a memory controller. You need to program it. You need to optimize the timing. You have to test a lot with a lot of devices.
I know that first hand from Angelbird. There is always the struggle to source enough from the same MLC flash memory in the same quality because those few fabricators just keep on pushing ever more 3D-layers onto the cells - which are much slower but cheaper to fabricate.

Ellory Yu wrote:I'm not trying to justify anything here, but just think about it. It is my opinion that there is still a huge margin that's just profit base and nothing to do with the source and making of the media itself. Food for thought here people.


Well, maybe more facts than just your opinion would make for better food for thoughts.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 12:47 am

You can’t compare commodity memory prices to media like Cfast.

It’s not the same.

Just compare the number of threads requesting help with media on these forums.

ALL the issues are because of using commodity media and desktop based cables and connections.

Cfast is designed to be used in these high data scenarios, to be unplugged, have the battery run out mid take and survive those issues.

This isn’t the same as premium vs standard gas. There actually is a meaningful difference and those that get paid to do this know it’s not worth the risk.

JB
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 3:44 am

John Brawley wrote:You can’t compare commodity memory prices to media like Cfast.

It’s not the same.

Just compare the number of threads requesting help with media on these forums.

ALL the issues are because of using commodity media and desktop based cables and connections.

Cfast is designed to be used in these high data scenarios, to be unplugged, have the battery run out mid take and survive those issues.

This isn’t the same as premium vs standard gas. There actually is a meaningful difference and those that get paid to do this know it’s not worth the risk.

JB


I just purchased a 512GB (2 x 256GB) set of Angelbird CF cards from B&H. B&H was charging $479.99. I asked them to price match Full Compass Systems which was charging $339.90. B&H was more than happy to do it. that's $140.09 savings. Obviously B&H is still making a profit.

Here is the irony, Full Compass Systems charges $289.99 for a single 256GB CF card (x2 = $579.98).
B&H charges $279.90 for a single 256GB CF card (x2 = $559.80)

So perhaps you can explain the price fluctuations?

A CFast card is fundamentally the same thing as a compact flash card, but with faster flash memory and using the 600-megabyte/s, version 3 SATA interface. Yeah economies of scale, blah, blah, blah, but keep in mind that this technology has been out for a while now. I just find it interesting that vendors can and will drop prices just by sampling asking them. It pays to shop around rather than paying just because you think it's worth it. That's equally as ridiculous. :lol:
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 4:08 am

Derfla wrote:
John Brawley wrote:You can’t compare commodity memory prices to media like Cfast.

It’s not the same.

Just compare the number of threads requesting help with media on these forums.

ALL the issues are because of using commodity media and desktop based cables and connections.

Cfast is designed to be used in these high data scenarios, to be unplugged, have the battery run out mid take and survive those issues.

This isn’t the same as premium vs standard gas. There actually is a meaningful difference and those that get paid to do this know it’s not worth the risk.

JB


I just purchased a 512GB (2 x 256GB) set of Angelbird CF cards from B&H. B&H was charging $479.99. I asked them to price match Full Compass Systems which was charging $339.90. B&H was more than happy to do it. that's $140.09 savings. Obviously B&H is still making a profit.

Here is the irony, Full Compass Systems charges $289.99 for a single 256GB CF card (x2 = $579.98).
B&H charges $279.90 for a single 256GB CF card (x2 = $559.80)

So perhaps you can explain the price fluctuations?

A CFast card is fundamentally the same thing as a compact flash card, but with faster flash memory and using the 600-megabyte/s, version 3 SATA interface. Yeah economies of scale, blah, blah, blah, but keep in mind that this technology has been out for a while now. I just find it interesting that vendors can and will drop prices just by sampling asking them. It pays to shop around rather than paying just because you think it's worth it. That's equally as ridiculous. :lol:



Can’t you do the exact same thing with commodity media ? The prices fluctuate weekly.

I don’t understand your point.

It’s about buying media in a form that’s reliable? The prices have always been trending down. As other who mentioned in this thread when they had to buy them 3 years ago.

It’s not that complicated.

JB
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Ellory Yu

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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 5:25 am

Robert Niessner wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:Let's talk about C-Fast cards. Did you know that there is only two or three fabricators (in China mostly) of the C-Fast cards? Sony, Angelbird, Lexar and the likes do not fabricate their cards. They assemble and package them.


That's wrong. They buy the flash memory. But there is more to a CFast card than just to assemble and package them. You need a memory controller. You need to program it. You need to optimize the timing. You have to test a lot with a lot of devices.
I know that first hand from Angelbird. There is always the struggle to source enough from the same MLC flash memory in the same quality because those few fabricators just keep on pushing ever more 3D-layers onto the cells - which are much slower but cheaper to fabricate.

Is it wrong because I said they fabricated C-Fast cards instead of flash memory? It's NOT WRONG. A C-Fast card is just flash memory. The bus is standard - called SATA. Therefore the controller is a standard component that can be purchased like any other electronic parts (diodes, transistors). It's a commodity. The programming and heat control is pretty much an established algorithm and technique. Yes, you can tweet the algorithm to get some gain but that should cost so much in R&D. Also, it has been around for a long time so there's not much programming and optimizing to it. Manufacturers preform standard QA practices and this is usually test using a predetermine number of devices that they already invested long time ago. The only anomaly is if they are paying expensive laborers that can drive up cost; or have high margins because they can get away with it.
Here's another thing. Both CFast and CF cards are flash memory. The difference is that the former uses a SATA, or Serial-ATA controller to read/write to the same flash memory used on the CF cards. CF cards uses PATA, or Parallel-ATA controllers. That is the dominant differences. Both SATA and PATA controllers are commodity electronic components that are less than $1USD in bulk. Why is CF cards a lot more cheaper that CFast cards?

So before you make statements like "wrong" or "facts more than opinion", think before you bash. The facts are clear - it boils down to profit margin in excess.

Well, some folks are willing to spend for reliability while others want the same reliability but have a better appreciation as to what is a reasonable expenditure. That's okay - there is no right or wrong. So we disagree... that's okay too. But we should respectfully disagree. If we are not cheated, then we all win. If we are cheated by greedy manufacturers and vendors, then we all lose. Maybe we can all agree to that. :)
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 10:34 am

John Brawley wrote:This isn’t the same as premium vs standard gas. There actually is a meaningful difference and those that get paid to do this know it’s not worth the risk.
JB
This is why I decided to go with CFast. When I was first pricing up getting one of the Pocket cameras I was thinking of recording to a T5 or something but read some advice here saying it was more risky. I shoot a mixture of zero-budget indie narrative stuff and events, so I don't shoot high end stuff with decent budgets. But even for me, if I had a media failure on an event shoot then I’d likely be out of pocket by more than the cost of a couple of CFast card take some reputational damage to boot.

Just ordered a couple of Anglebird 512GB cards today. It came to £744 (UK price inc VAT) which included a bit of discount for ordering two together.
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Derfla

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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 1:47 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Derfla wrote:
John Brawley wrote:You can’t compare commodity memory prices to media like Cfast.

It’s not the same.

Just compare the number of threads requesting help with media on these forums.

ALL the issues are because of using commodity media and desktop based cables and connections.

Cfast is designed to be used in these high data scenarios, to be unplugged, have the battery run out mid take and survive those issues.

This isn’t the same as premium vs standard gas. There actually is a meaningful difference and those that get paid to do this know it’s not worth the risk.


JB


I just purchased a 512GB (2 x 256GB) set of Angelbird CF cards from B&H. B&H was charging $479.99. I asked them to price match Full Compass Systems which was charging $339.90. B&H was more than happy to do it. that's $140.09 savings. Obviously B&H is still making a profit.

Here is the irony, Full Compass Systems charges $289.99 for a single 256GB CF card (x2 = $579.98).
B&H charges $279.90 for a single 256GB CF card (x2 = $559.80)

So perhaps you can explain the price fluctuations?

A CFast card is fundamentally the same thing as a compact flash card, but with faster flash memory and using the 600-megabyte/s, version 3 SATA interface. Yeah economies of scale, blah, blah, blah, but keep in mind that this technology has been out for a while now. I just find it interesting that vendors can and will drop prices just by sampling asking them. It pays to shop around rather than paying just because you think it's worth it. That's equally as ridiculous. :lol:



Can’t you do the exact same thing with commodity media ? The prices fluctuate weekly.

I don’t understand your point.

It’s about buying media in a form that’s reliable? The prices have always been trending down. As other who mentioned in this thread when they had to buy them 3 years ago.

It’s not that complicated.

JB


My point is that you don't have to pay full price. Although this thread was started three years ago, you still have people who currently feel that these prices are justified. Almost as if the prices are frozen in time and there or no other options. That's just not the case.

You yourself just said:

"You can’t compare commodity memory prices to media like Cfast. It’s not the same."

That's a bit of a contradiction don't you think? I'm just saying shop around and you can find deals that save you a good bit of money. I feel that's helpful to those trying to save money.

I like certain products, and I'm brand loyal to a point. When it comes to parting with my hard earned money though, I don't like my opinions being bashed because they don't fit in with someone else's opinion.

Because I went against the grain and questioned the price of CF cards, I was able to save $140.09. All it took was about 5 minutes of research. Had I took the comments on this thread as the gospel, I would not have realized that CF cards prices do fluctuate even though some companies continue to charge a premium for them.

This is an expensive hobby for me. My guess is that there are many on this forum who are not "professionals" who do this for a living. So when I make a purchase, I don't think in terms of charging clients to compensate for my purchases, or that a piece of gear will pay for itself after one or two jobs. I think in terms of getting the best value for my money. Given my secular professional background, I simply will not buy into this whole (almost mythical) notion that CF technology is expensive because it has to be.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 4:08 pm

Cfast price is controlled because the market isn't large enough for China to be interested. As soon as that door is opened the price will drop, until then mfr's will charge as much as they can...just like you, me, and everyone else.

Good Luck
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 5:45 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Cfast price is controlled because the market isn't large enough for China to be interested. As soon as that door is opened the price will drop, until then mfr's will charge as much as they can...just like you, me, and everyone else.

Good Luck


It looks like CF will be replaced by CFexpress or other technology. The good new is that this may cause a blow out of existing CF cards. Only time will tell. I am more than happy with my Angelbird cards. Technically, you could use a CF Card multiple times a day and do so for about 70-80 years before you approach the average durability life cycle of solid-state storage. This, of course, does not count any possible physical defects with the card, so it's good to have backups for when the warrantee runs out. I plan on Keeping my UMPG2 until it dies and can no longer be serviced so I think I'll be good for a while.
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Re: The prices of Cfast 2.0 cards are just ridiculous.

PostThu Apr 01, 2021 10:05 pm

Good thing I was able to get few Angelbird CFast card over Amazon with 38% off.
CFast card price, makes the Blackmagic owner have same feeling as the RED owner. :mrgreen:
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