Live Stream with original BMPCC

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robMAT

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Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostSun Mar 28, 2021 3:53 pm

Hello,

My GF wants to create a twitch account and live stream some courses and I'd like to know what I woul need (accessories, computer specs, etc.) to film her with my original pocket camera.

Is it even possible in the first place? Can I live stream with my good old 1080p pocket?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 1:42 am

you should be able to. You will need some kind of HDMI to USB video Capture Interface. you can go from fairly simple to pretty complicated.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 3:51 am

The simplest is to get this or something similar to it like the ones made by Elgato.
http://blackmagicdesign.com/products/bl ... bpresenter or
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _game.html
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 7:18 am

Not the cheapest option, but the 5” 12G Video Assist will show up as a webcam.

EDIT - LUTs applied to the Video Assist display do not apply to the USB output. It would be great if they did.
Last edited by Jamie LeJeune on Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 9:03 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:Not the cheapest option, but the 5” 12G Video Assist will show up as a webcam. Benefit to running the HDMI into the Video Assist is ability to apply a custom LUT — very useful with the original BMPCC which needs a custom transform to look good.


+1
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 9:42 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:Not the cheapest option, but the 5” 12G Video Assist will show up as a webcam. Benefit to running the HDMI into the Video Assist is ability to apply a custom LUT — very useful with the original BMPCC which needs a custom transform to look good.


Jamie, can you confirm that the video out from the 12G Video Assist over USB has the LUT embedded? I looked at the manual a few months ago and couldn't tell; I posed a question in the forum but never got an answer.

The original Video Assist, which I have, doesn't do this: you can apply a LUT in the Video Assist for monitoring but only the log footage is transmitted through the HDMI out. You can get around it by changing the camera's dynamic range from "film" to "video," as long as you can live with that compromise (which for live-streaming might be okay).

If you use OBS, you can apply a LUT there; I've tried it with the original Pocket and it works, although it's one more thing for your computer to do and I'm not sure if it would affect latency (including any impact on sync between video and audio).

I currently use the original BMPCC going out to the Elgato CamLink 4K and it works fine. Image quality is excellent, even using the "video" dynamic range if you're indoors under controlled lighting.

You do have to figure out sound, too: don't use the original BMPCC's built-in mics as they're awful. You could do line-in to the camera from an external mixer and capture both video and sound via HDMI, or you can capture sound separately and use OBS to apply audio effects, change levels, and synchronize video and audio. But getting audio from OBS to Twitch might be tricky (it's tricky for Zoom, for example).
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 2:16 pm

Depending on your budget, look at the BMD ATEM range of switchers to get your camera to the web.
A switcher will future proof your project if you wish to add other sources to your stream.
This may help with audio too.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products

I second Brad's suggestions.

This guy Aaron Parecki on Youtube has good info on using the ATEM.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI3Par ... wVIthS5JAA
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 2:32 pm

Brad Hurley wrote: Jamie, can you confirm that the video out from the 12G Video Assist over USB has the LUT embedded? I looked at the manual a few months ago and couldn't tell; I posed a question in the forum but never got an answer.
I could have sworn that it does, but I was mistaken. I ran my last test with the current Pocket camera and I must have had the LUT turned on in that camera's output rather than on the Video Assist. I just retested and you are right — it does not apply the LUT to the USB output. So, thank you for asking that question. I will edit my comment above to correct my error.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 2:32 pm

The only issue with ATEM in this particular case is that it works best with the BMPCC 4K and later; When I looked through the manual I didn't see any way for it to apply a LUT to log footage from the original BMPCC. You can of course use the video (vs film) dynamic range setting as mentioned above, but if you can apply a LUT to log footage it would look better and give you more options.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 2:35 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote: I just retested and you are right — it does not apply the LUT to the USB output. So, thank you for asking that question. I will edit my comment above to correct my error.


Thanks for testing, and it's a bummer that it doesn't work! There are some monitors can embed a LUT to HDMI out (some of the SmallHD monitors, for example), but it's too bad we can't do it with Video Assist.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 2:52 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:The only issue with ATEM in this particular case is that it works best with the BMPCC 4K and later; When I looked through the manual I didn't see any way for it to apply a LUT to log footage from the original BMPCC. You can of course use the video (vs film) dynamic range setting as mentioned above, but if you can apply a LUT to log footage it would look better and give you more options.


Brad, I agree with everything that you are stating.
The look out of the OG BMPCC is an issue which then begs the question.

Do you spend money on fixing the LUT issue with a magic box or go with what you have until you upgrade the camera?

What is the priority?

So the answer to the question is, yes one can stream using the BMPCC but you may have to jump through hoops to get an image out of the HDMI that is pleasing.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 2:59 pm

Leon Benzakein wrote:The look out of the OG BMPCC is an issue which then begs the question.
Do you spend money on fixing the LUT issue with a magic box or go with what you have until you upgrade the camera?


Agreed. I normally would never use the "video" dynamic range on that camera, but so far I'm finding that for live-streaming it's more than adequate if you can control the lighting. My partner and I are prepping for a live Zoom concert that we'll be performing later this month and in our tests so far we've been pretty happy with the image. It does of course look better if you shoot log into OBS and apply a LUT, but to keep things simple we're using the "video" setting, using the camera as a webcam input to Zoom, and for this kind of application it's totally acceptable. Still working on getting the sound up to snuff, though.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 3:07 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:
My partner and I are prepping for a live Zoom concert that we'll be performing later this month and in our tests so far we've been pretty happy with the image.


I would be interested to see the results.

Have you considered some kind of filter on the lens, something that adds a touch towards red.
A piece of minus green perhaps.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 3:13 pm

I have wondered what an 812 filter would do?

https://tiffen.com/products/812-warming-filter.

If this would do something to the Cyan look.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 3:20 pm

Leon Benzakein wrote:Have you considered some kind of filter on the lens, something that adds a touch towards red.
A piece of minus green perhaps.


That's an interesting idea. I warmed it up by setting the white balance in-camera at 5600 but setting the actual lights to around tungsten levels; I adjusted the color temperature of the light while watching the image on Zoom full-screen until we were happy enough with it. The bar for live-streaming image quality is pretty low, at least for our audience, many of whom will be watching on phones or tablets (where Zoom audio is mono, by the way, so I have to test for mono compatibility in my audio mix).
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 3:37 pm

I dare step into the audio world with a great deal of hesitation and crossed fingers.

Lately I have been exploring an inexpensive way of getting XLR to the camera by using an iRig Pre.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... ap=y&smp=y



It is a device from the dark ages of the BMPCC.( I say this with affection)
It is a TRRS device so you will need to have a Y splitter TRRS to TRS headphone and mic.

This can give you a XLR mono feed from an audio mixer to camera.

They do have other iRig devices that take 1/4 inch jacks.( I do not know these)
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 3:44 pm

Leon Benzakein wrote:Lately I have been exploring an inexpensive way of getting XLR to the camera by using an iRig Pre.


I've read about other people using those as well, seems like a good cheap solution.

I have the Rolls Royce version, a Sonosax M2D2, and it does have a line out, which I will try patching into the BMPCC (in my case I am actually using a Micro Cinema Camera but it's essentially the same sensor). I tried going direct from the Sonosax into the computer as an audio interface and using that as the audio source in Zoom but the person I tested it with said she could hardly hear us even with her volume maxed out.

Looking again at the footage we shot with the "video" setting in our tests I'd say it looks a bit loggy and low-contrast, and I may go back to using OBS and apply one of Hook's LUTs to the log footage for better results. OBS now has a "virtual webcam" setting that is recognized by Zoom but getting audio into Zoom from OBS is trickier.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 3:56 pm

Again I state that audio is not my thing BUT :twisted:

I have been using a ZOOM H1 as a pre amp to boost the audio.

I was testing getting audio into a MacBook via TRRS.

I have to admit I do not remember if my test included using the ZOOM H1 at that point.
I did manage to get the iRig to read on the MacBook.

The headphone jack on ZOOM H1 is line/headphone out.
You can power the ZOOM H1 with USB power.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 4:06 pm

Oh, to add the ZOOM H1 can be used as an USB audio interface.

Anyway now I am just rambling.
The joy of low budget.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 5:58 pm

Not all transforms are created equal. The "video" output lines up pretty closely with the raw tab if memory serves. The CST is nearly perfect but the changes never cascaded down. The Pocket was probably old news by the time everything was sorted. Start with a ruddy image, add wilted greens, desaturated skies, lightly season with tungsten IR and the image can be unpalatable without a tasteful if not accurate LUT.

Good Luck

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 7:19 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
Brad Hurley wrote: Jamie, can you confirm that the video out from the 12G Video Assist over USB has the LUT embedded? I looked at the manual a few months ago and couldn't tell; I posed a question in the forum but never got an answer.
I could have sworn that it does, but I was mistaken. I ran my last test with the current Pocket camera and I must have had the LUT turned on in that camera's output rather than on the Video Assist. I just retested and you are right — it does not apply the LUT to the USB output. So, thank you for asking that question. I will edit my comment above to correct my error.


I mention this a few weeks ago. The current VA has been given webcam streaming capability but the ability to apply LUTs to the USB output is not there and must have been an oversight. Lets hope BMD can add that ability in future firmware.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 11:47 am

Thank you, guys.
A lot of information to take in.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 2:57 pm

To follow up on my ramblings using the ZOOM H1 as an USB interface, in case aliens read this and need this info.

I did a test yesterday on a MacBook, once I realized that to get rid of the chipmunk sound I needed to select 48/16.

I plugged a Rode VideMicro into the ZOOm H1 mic/line and worked. No smoke.
I then tried feeding music from my iPod into the ZOOm H1 mic/line and that worked too.
I opened the Zoom app on the Mac and tested all this and the Zoom app recognized the ZOOM H1 as a source.
The headphone jack on the ZOOM H1 then becomes the way to hear the Zoom app.

How this affects audio follow video sync I have no idea.

This is purely to suggest that the ZOOM range of products can be used as USB audio interface and preamp.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostFri Apr 02, 2021 4:22 pm

robMAT wrote:Thank you, guys.
A lot of information to take in.


Hi Roberto

Have you taken this project any further?
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 12:18 pm

Oh, I wish.

Work has not allowed me to read the thread thoroughly or try your suggestions.
I will let you know how it goes when I find some time off.

Thank you for your interest!
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 10:21 am

robMAT wrote:Work has not allowed me to read the thread thoroughly or try your suggestions.
I will let you know how it goes when I find some time off.


A few more thoughts on this:

Video: I think the cheapest solution that will give you good-looking video would be to get an Elgato Camlink 4K (I've tested this and it works well with the OG BMPCC), which turns the BMPCC into a webcam. You will need a micro-HDMI to regular HDMI cable, and as always be very careful when plugging into the micro HDMI jack on the BMPCC as it's fragile. If you have a cage with a cable clamp, use it.

You then have to decide whether you can live with using the camera's "video" dynamic range, which will give you a good-enough but not stellar image without any further tinkering required by you,. If you want to improve the image by applying a LUT, you can do that with the free OBS software. You would then need to enable OBS's virtual camera setting, and select the OBS virtual camera as your video source in Twitch.

Another option would be to get an ATEM Mini, which is a bit overkill and doesn't solve your LUT problem (unless I'm not reading the manual correctly you can't use it to apply a LUT to original BMPCC footage, only BMPCC 4K and 6K), but it does turn the BMPCC into a webcam and has its own audio inputs so you can plug in a microphone or two and not have to deal with all the stuff I'm about to describe below. ;)

Audio: as noted in earlier responses to this thread you don't want to use the camera's built-in mics as they are awful. Plugging an external mic into the BMPCC isn't a good solution either as the camera's preamps are as bad as the mics. You have basically two options: 1) use an external microphone with a preamp into the BMPCC, or 2) use a USB audio interface directly into your computer to record audio separately. Here are a few thoughts on both options:

1. Using an external mic with preamp into the BMPCC: The advantage of this approach is that you can take both the video and audio from the Elgato Camlink stream and the video and audio will automatically be in sync.

There are a bunch of threads here on the forum about how to get better audio into the original BMPCC (these threads are hard to find now because most BMPCC threads are about the 4K or 6K models; look for threads from 2017 and earlier). Here are a few: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52993 and viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16476. The Røde Videomic Pro seems to have worked work well for many people. In the field I've had success going from the line out on my Sound Devices MixPre 6 into the BMPCC as a line source, but the MixPre is expensive; there are cheaper solutions, including the Zoom recorders that Leon mentioned above.

2. Using a USB audio interface directly into your computer. This gives you the most control and allows you to totally bypass the BMPCC's crappy audio (mics, preamps, and analog-to-digital converters), but it runs the risk that your video and audio will be slightly out of sync. Some of the better audio interfaces and recorders have a delay function, where you can set and fine-tune a delay in the audio if the audio is showing up in the stream slightly ahead of the video, which is the most likely scenario if you do encounter any sync mismatch. It's less work for a computer to process audio than video, so it can process audio faster...this means that audio arriving from a separate source from your camera may end up ahead of the video in your livestream.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 2:35 pm

robMAT wrote:Oh, I wish.



Thank you for your interest!


Roberto, no pressure but I think that you have over 800 people interested. :idea:
Last edited by Leon Benzakein on Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 3:03 pm

Brad, well summarized.

For my part as someone who has worked in broadcast this whole streaming thing is exciting.

I had the opportunity to work with a group of zany people who got together one day a week to produce a live multi cam stream with graphics to Twitch.

It was astounding to think that we could do this from someone's apartment.

The team would get together on camera for a preprod., have input from the viewers on Twitch via the chatroom, come up with a scrip and then we would shoot, do a rough edit and TX by end of night.

It would go to post and then the final cut would eventually end up on Youtube.

You view this at your own risk-
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 8:14 pm

Leon Benzakein wrote:For my part as someone who has worked in broadcast this whole streaming thing is exciting.


Thanks for sharing that video, pretty amazing it was put together this way.

So far the livestreaming experience has been pretty stressful for me but that's because I'm handling all the tech plus providing accompaniment to the singer (we're a duo) so it's a lot of multitasking. We can't have anyone come to the house to help us due to COVID restrictions. Setup is taking about two hours. But we tested again today in Zoom with some remote participants and were told that our audio was excellent for what is possible with Zoom so that's good and we continue to get compliments on the video quality as well.

We do traditional music (from Brittany). We are using a stereo pair of mics above us and out of camera, going into a digital mixer and from there into a USB interface into my computer. That setup is working great for sound, and allows me to do things like add a tiny bit of reverb, a little compression to control dynamic range, and delay on the main output if necessary if the audio is coming in ahead of the video. I could do all this in a DAW on the computer, but the computer's already pretty busy processing video and audio and running Zoom.

Today's test suggested that the audio is actually very slightly behind the video, so I may send the camera into OBS and apply a LUT after all; that may add enough latency to the video to bring audio and video into sync or I can add delay to the audio if the video ends up lagging too much.

My sister has volunteered to monitor the chat, as I think that level of multitasking would be more than my tiny brain can handle on top of playing music, watching the sound levels, and monitoring the video.

All of this would be a lot easier if we lowered our standards and simply used a phone or iPad with its built-in mics and webcam, but I'm hoping the results will be worth it and I do like a challenge. Our festival concert is coming up in three weeks.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 9:55 pm

Thanks Brad about using virtual camera via OBS for lut, however I find there is a noticeable latency. Is there a way to reduce the video lag?
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostSun Apr 04, 2021 11:50 pm

WahWay wrote:Thanks Brad about using virtual camera via OBS for lut, however I find there is a noticeable latency. Is there a way to reduce the video lag?


Faster computer might help, but I don't know. I've been contemplating getting one of the M1 Macs, which might make a difference. Good to know about the latency; the feedback I got today was that the video and audio were only very slightly off, not enough to be an issue for viewers but if I want perfection I would need to delay the video by a few milliseconds and I'm not sure how to do that.

From my perspective latency in the video is actually okay as long as I can delay the audio to match (which I can via my digital mixer) but I need someone on the other end to keep watching until everything's in sync while I add progressively more delay. A slate works pretty well for those tests. The problem of course is watching yourself in the monitor, the delay can be distracting.
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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 11:54 am

Why are you using virtual camera and not streaming directly to twitch from OBS ?
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 2:06 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:So far the livestreaming experience has been pretty stressful


I can understand this.

The obvious questions are why are you going live and are you planning to do a higher resolution post version?
Is there an interactive component to the show?
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 3:12 pm

Leon Benzakein wrote:The obvious questions are why are you going live and are you planning to do a higher resolution post version?
Is there an interactive component to the show?


This is for an online music festival; they offered the option of a live show (50 minutes) or a pre-recorded video (10 minutes max). We have no experience with live-streaming a concert so we decided to go for it, to give ourselves the experience in case we need to do it again. There will be some interactivity in the form of a chat box, although realistically we won't look at the chat until toward the end; we are leaving a few minutes for a brief Q&A period where we'll respond to questions in the chat. This is an all-volunteer festival, performers don't get paid so we figured it would be a good low-risk opportunity to get some experience in live streaming.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 4:00 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:This is for an online music festival


Got it.
Makes perfect sense.
Great idea.
Nothing like a kick in the pants to feel alive.

Do musicians say 'Break a leg"?
Whatever they say I send you good wishes.
It will all go well on the night.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 4:40 pm

Thanks, Leon!
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WahWay

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 10:51 pm

I upgraded to Big Sur today on my 2013 Mac Pro and my BMCC which I was using as a webcam via the thunderbolt port no longer detected in OBS. On system report it still recognise Cinema Camera connected to thunderbolt port just no longer seeing them in apps like Zoom or OBS so definately not a hardware issue. The thunderbolt port can still read CF cards via a TB card reader. Any clue?
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostMon Apr 05, 2021 11:31 pm

Simon,

I came across this thread "Apple and BMCC" from 2013.
Will this give you any idea?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4317&start=10
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WahWay

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 7:06 am

Media Express no longer see the BMCC as a device.
System report as follow
Attachments
Screenshot 2021-04-06 at 08.05.21.png
Screenshot 2021-04-06 at 08.05.21.png (241.81 KiB) Viewed 533 times
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WahWay

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 9:10 am

The reason why I prefer Thunderbolt on the BMCC over USB for webcam is the almost absent of video lag. With USB I have to at least double the frame rates to reduce the lag to try and keep up wiith TB.

Big Sur has been a big mess. At least for me it is working on everything else, others had it worse with built in webcam on their mac book no longer works and Apple has not been forhcomming with a fix.
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Leon Benzakein

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostTue Apr 06, 2021 3:18 pm

If this is what can be achieved now, the future is very bright.
One wonders about how much of the gear used on this gig was Blackmagic.

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostSun Apr 11, 2021 6:18 am

WahWay wrote:The reason why I prefer Thunderbolt on the BMCC over USB for webcam is the almost absent of video lag. With USB I have to at least double the frame rates to reduce the lag to try and keep up wiith TB.

Big Sur has been a big mess. At least for me it is working on everything else, others had it worse with built in webcam on their mac book no longer works and Apple has not been forhcomming with a fix.


Remember that all apps which would like to access something in the user space, such as camera, microphone, documents folder, photos etc need your explicit permission.
Verify that in integrity and security settings.

Also remember to download and install the latest Desktop Video software to get media express to work properly.
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WahWay

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Re: Live Stream with original BMPCC

PostSun Apr 11, 2021 9:15 am

I got it working after getting advice about allowing apps from identified developer.

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