Blackmagic Forum

I was an early adopter of the BMC 2.5K EF camera. I really feel it fills a needs between 4K and DSLR. I really had a lot of respect for Blackmagic and their business model for this camera.

Since my purchase Blackmagic has introduced two new cameras. The 4K camera has reduced the market resale value of my 2.5K camera by at least $1000.00. And no trade in program for 4K.

Firmware- seriously- WTF. Why is it that I still get a black sun, EF lenses don't have iris function, I can't format an SSD drive in the camera, or see any kind of audio information. And to add insult to injury the latest firmware addresses the black sun for the pocket camera- not the BMC 2.5K.

So is there an update on the progress to address these problems? I get audio levels may be out of the responsibility of Blackmagic but you can't ignore the black sun issue or the "EF" compatibility issues. The SSD formatting in camera is a no brainer.

I realize I am preaching to the choir here. But I think the pot needs stirring. I'm pissed and I want to know what the hell is going on with the firmware.

Your post answer the "why I cancelled my 4k order" question.
Why wait for products that are seemingly planned and scheduled for release prior to them being built, or for the matter the plans for product development, production and support are too rough around the edges for my taste.

For all intense and purpose, the BMD 2.5k is a nice camera... but you purchase it knowing that it is what it is. I was excited at the 2.5k announcement. Then as time marched on and the camera didn't, I came down off my BMD high. Then the 4k announcement and I'm all line up for my fix again like a crack whore. Came down off that high as time once again marched on and I grew very weary of checking the BBoards for the latest none news of what'a not going on.

Maybe if BMD gets things squared up by 2014 or 2015 with all the hype and circumstance, I may reconsider them again.

If you can't get that nasty taste out, I would say use the camera, get your money out of it, save up and jump ship. You still have a very nice camera that just has some limits that you have to work around. It seems no amount of voicing has any affect on getting much response, or at least the response that everyone wants to hear. Best of luck!

Since I got my first BMC in September last year, I shot a ton of documentaries, commercials, shortfilms, industry films, andwhatnot. I had zero problems.

Sure it has some quirks, but for the images I can get out of this cameras, I'm happy to work around.


Jeeeezuz Florida, go out and shoot something great, instead of whining about resale value. If you know what you are doing, the BMC is not in your way.

Frank Glencairn wrote:Since I got my first BMC in September last year, I shot a ton of documentaries, commercials, shortfilms, industry films, andwhatnot. I had zero problems.

Sure it has some quirks, but for the images I can get out of this cameras, I'm happy to work around.


Jeeeezuz Florida, go out and shoot something great, instead of whining about resale value. If you know what you are doing, the BMC is not in your way.

+1

Frank Glencairn wrote:Jeeeezuz Florida, go out and shoot something great, instead of whining about resale value. If you know what you are doing, the BMC is not in your way.

You're over simplifying my concern to only illustrate your success with the BMC. I have had great success with the camera and use it for about 90% of my clients. That is not the issue.

Moreover there was no need to insult my skill level suggesting "I only need to know what to do". Now this I will address due to relevence. I can only stack on so much ND Schneider 1.2's and .9's in my Chrosziel matte box because my 17-40L won't stop down. It's a problem. And skill has nothing to do with it. And yes I heavily rely on the shutter to compensate for the lack of iris control or use ND faders and standard ND's. The black sun issue sucks. I've heard Red One had this issue early on. I've also heard there is a post fix.

That's great if you post your own work. I work with agencies who use they're own editors. A black sun- that is seen as an error; be it a DP error, lens error, camera error. They don't know. They don't care. They just know it looks like **** and it's something they have to fix. Emails go out. Phone calls are made. And reputations tend to be on the line. I've experienced it- which is the source of my frustration.

The pocket cam people grabbed pitch forks and lit torches. It worked for us contrary to the fanboys saying posting here does nothing.

You want BM to have a trade in program when their product cost you $3k? Really?
You say that you have used it a bunch for clients, I would think 5 days rental would make up for that 1 grand that you now feel you've lost in "value".

Frank Glencairn wrote:Since I got my first BMC in September last year, I shot a ton of documentaries, commercials, shortfilms, industry films, andwhatnot. I had zero problems.

Sure it has some quirks, but for the images I can get out of this cameras, I'm happy to work around.


Jeeeezuz Florida, go out and shoot something great, instead of whining about resale value. If you know what you are doing, the BMC is not in your way.

Amen...

Complaining about the lack of a "trade-in program" or resale value is ridiculous. How many camera companies have you seen with a trade-in program? The only one I can think of is Red. Which makes sense because their cameras cost the same as a very nice new car... As far as resale value is concerned you should be buying a camera to use it not sell it. Do you honestly want camera makers to hold back on innovation and progress or jack up their prices just so you feel better about your investment?

No thanks... I would rather see new and better and cheaper cameras come out as fast as possible... At least until we hit some kind of quality plateau...

I got to say that even despite the short comings and quarks of the camera. It honestly keeps blowing me away with the quality of the image. Especially now that I'm ETTR more. I'm really excited for the new firmware, I hope it has some cool new features to play with. If it doesn't, I'm still going to love and enjoy shooting with my BMCC. Love it!

FloridaDP wrote: I can only stack on so much ND Schneider 1.2's and .9's in my Chrosziel matte box because my 17-40L won't stop down. It's a problem. And skill has nothing to do with it.

I would never compromise shutter angle just to compensate for exposure.
I don't even use the iris to control exposure, since I see the iris as a creative tool and don't want to change my DOF or lens performance, just to get the exposure right.

So yeah - even though all my glass works on the EF, I rely on variND only for exposure.

But if it is such a problem for you, just use an other lens.
The 17-55 works just fine. It's my workhorse glass on the EF.

Frank Glencairn wrote:But if it is such a problem for you, just use an other lens.
The 17-55 works just fine. It's my workhorse glass on the EF.

I have mixed feelings... yes, the resale value is irrelevant, you bought the camera for a purpose and it must have fit it at the time.

However, there are some things that people (rightfully) expect a camera on this "professional" level to do:
- Audio meters (ok, that can be argued)
- Remaining record time on media
- No issues with the recorded picture (black sun, banding, dead/stuck pixels, ...)
- An audio interface that actually works without weird workarounds
- Decent lens compatibility (a lot of my "standard" EF glass doesn't work, especially the wide angle ones which are the obvious choices for this camera).

There are workarounds for some/most of these issues (i.e. buy additional stuff or fix it in post), but those are workarounds, not solutions. Not using a lens that costs close to the current price of the camera is counterintuitive.

So, yes, it is a case of what you get is what you get, but BMD has set expectations high to sell these puppies and so far failed to follow up on them after the sale, be it delivery or specs. And they continued doing the same pattern with the BMPCC (raw anyone?) and the 4K version (delivery anyone?)...

One would expect a company to learn from previous mistakes and avoid repeating them, but I guess the cheap thrill of being able to announce something "groundbreaking" at NAB trumps customer satisfaction...

I'm sure they will announce something really cool at the next NAB which will also not be delivered on time and on spec until close to NAB 2015... seems to be the new BMD mantra...

So, am I using my BMCC? Absolutely.
Am I happy with it? Partially.
Will I buy the next iteration? Currently unlikely.

I agree. Don't care on the resale value, but I do miss some features that my other camera have.

-The ability to delete my clips, format a SSD
-Remaining time on card
-Audio Meters (!)
-Black Sun Fix

All big issues for me personally. Hopefully they get addressed in 1.5

Frank Glencairn wrote:The 17-55 works just fine. It's my workhorse glass on the EF.

++1 on that. 17-55 EF is a great lens. I have a few BMCCs and never take that lens off one of them. Throw some ND on that thing and it can be used in so many situations.

I like this board for helpful information from people ...the complainers are humorous. I seriously don't think a lot of you that bought this camera should consider yourself professionals if you are complaining about some of this stuff. Seriously, this is the "cinematography" section of the forum. If you would bother to learn your craft, you wouldn't be complaining about some of these things you are complaining about from a $3000/$2000 camera.

Forstm wrote:I like this board for helpful information from people ...the complainers are humorous. I seriously don't think a lot of you that bought this camera should consider yourself professionals if you are complaining about some of this stuff.

Meh... right... asking for remaining recording time, lens compatibility or expecting non-black overexposed areas is unprofessional... really? We probably have different definitions of the word "professional"...

I am in no way a professional, these cameras are at consumer prices so all these complaints should be dealt with. Black sun mostly

remopini wrote:

Forstm wrote:I like this board for helpful information from people ...the complainers are humorous. I seriously don't think a lot of you that bought this camera should consider yourself professionals if you are complaining about some of this stuff.

Meh... right... asking for remaining recording time, lens compatibility or expecting non-black overexposed areas is unprofessional... really? We probably have different definitions of the word "professional"...

I think what happened is that Blackmagic stated when releasing the BMCC EF way back at NAB 2012 that it would be aimed at the DSLR crowd. That set up a lot of our expectations from the start, which is why many of us are ok with the "missing features." That's my perspective on it anyway. I knew it was going to have all the downfalls of a DSLR, except deliver phenomenal footage. That tradeoff (low cost DSLR-like shooting but awesome footage) was something I was willing to deal with.

That being said, if BMD added more of these features (which would be awesome because it just makes life easier), it would make the purchase even better and the shooting experience much more pleasant.

thomasblakeramsey wrote:I agree. Don't care on the resale value, but I do miss some features that my other camera have.

-The ability to delete my clips, format a SSD
-Remaining time on card
-Audio Meters (!)
-Black Sun Fix

All big issues for me personally. Hopefully they get addressed in 1.5

You don't really need remaining time on card if you know how much time can fit on a card.

my beef with the black sun is that it is not on my bmpcc and it was fixed with a firmware update

The 17-55 works just fine. It's my workhorse glass on the EF.

[/quote]

The 17-55 might be good enough for short films or whatever. In my market short films are unpaid jobs. Typically the expectation of said job is certainly less than what my clients expect. Moreover, why is a prosumer type lens such as the 17-55 have no compatibility issues yet professional L series lenses still lack support on the BMC?

Perhaps I am sadly and woefully misguided in suggesting a trade in program. When Blackmagic announced the 4K camera is was right around a year after 2.5K was shipping. That doesn't seem right. Early adopters should have received some kind of 'offer' to upgrade.

In the end Frank you're a better man and obviously a better DP since I use shutter and iris to control exposure. You win Frank.

FloridaDP wrote:
The 17-55 might be good enough for short films or whatever. In my market short films are unpaid jobs. Typically the expectation of said job is certainly less than what my clients expect.

Come down from that high horse.
We done a ton of lens comparison over the last 20 years and I can tell you, the lens is not the weak link here - it takes a hell of a pixel peeper to see the differences between those lenses - especially in the finished and compressed product.
We are talking about glass that was made for 8 and 12k of resolution, I doubt that any of your clients would ever see a difference between footage shot on a L series or not. The 17-55 outrezes the 2.5k of the BMC by far.

But If you have such pristine premium clients, you sure have the budget to rent an Angenieux Optimo zoom - so what's you point?

The 17-55 is basically an L glass for APS-C optically.. I say this because the only issue is dust gets in really easily. We've been using it on the C300-C500 for a long time. Even preferred the look of it from the zeiss LWZ 2 we had.

Frank Glencairn wrote:

Come down from that high horse.
We done a ton of lens comparison over the last 20 years and I can tell you, the lens is not the weak link here - it takes a hell of a pixel peeper to see the differences between those lenses - especially in the finished and compressed product.

We are talking about glass that was made for 8 and 12k of resolution, I doubt that any of your clients would ever see a difference between footage shot on a L series or not. The 17-55 outrezes the 2.5k of the BMC by far.

+1

Glad to hear someone with pro-experience in the business acknowledge this. I have been saying for a long time you don't need and it may actually be harmfull to use ultrasharp glass for digital video/film production. To me it seems like users of the ultra sharp lenses actually fight moire and aliasing more than anyone others.

If you listen too famous DPs and directors, when they shoot digital, they often jump trough hoops to make it softer. Vintage glass, special filters andwhatnot. Most folks in the industry hate super sharp footy on the big screen, the obsession with sharpness is a consumer thing.

Frank Glencairn wrote:the obsession with sharpness is a consumer thing.

It trickles up to "professionals" though, doesn't it? Why else the 4K? If it was all 'bout dreamy softness, pros would still be shooting on 8mm and BetaSP with a diffuser?

Alex G. wrote:It trickles up to "professionals" though, doesn't it? Why else the 4K? If it was all 'bout dreamy softness, pros would still be shooting on 8mm and BetaSP with a diffuser?

I think you confuse resolution with sharpness. I don't think the two are the same, though, the higher the resolution, the sharper you can make an image.

ChrisBarcellos wrote:I think you confuse resolution with sharpness. I don't think the two are the same

Don't think I said they were - yet you're right, resolution isn't in a monogamous relationship with sharpness, contrary to my previous point.

ChrisBarcellos wrote:the higher the resolution, the sharper you can make an image.

...or softer... Not enough resolution can lead to banding, jaggies, etc. in soft images.

Hello all,
I think that some of the creature features need to be added. In the run and gun world it's difficult to do math while your shooting. I know for the money just going ahead and buying the fs-100 would have been easier in that sense. But just in terms of image quality this camera is an absolute no brainer. I have been talking and testing my camera verses the Alexa and it's nice to actually have a camera I can hand a high end client and say.." put it in the corner and blow it up." knowing full well that if it survives people can't tell the difference between this camera and the Alexa. I will be uploading comparisons shortly. I'm a IATSE local 600 member who has been actually using the camera on tv productions. The difference between this and dslrs is huge. And the ability and cost to make this match up with the Alexa have been awesome for my jobs.

Frank Glencairn wrote:Sure it has some quirks, but for the images I can get out of this cameras, I'm happy to work around.

I agree.