BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

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craigbeckta

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BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostSat Jun 05, 2021 4:31 pm

Hey everyone,

I did a quick comparison between the BMPCC 6K Pro and the Sony A7S III with the same lenses.

The Zeiss 50mm F1.4 ZE and the Zeiss 35mm F1.4 ZE.

In a couple of scenes the color just seemed much richer and realistic on the 6K Pro.

You can check out the clips here:



Craig
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostSat Jun 05, 2021 5:03 pm

Thanks for the side by side footage. You did an excellent job with color matching and probably sold some more Sonys. :D
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 3:19 am

craigbeckta wrote:Hey everyone,

I did a quick comparison between the BMPCC 6K Pro and the Sony A7S III with the same lenses.

The Zeiss 50mm F1.4 ZE and the Zeiss 35mm F1.4 ZE.

In a couple of scenes the color just seemed much richer and realistic on the 6K Pro.

You can check out the clips here:



Craig

Thank you for taking the time to put this together for us, Craig. Your video reminded me of how much I miss being near the water! I don't mean to be overly critical, however, for a scene that should be ridiculously easy to expose for, the highlights seem to be blown out; colors lack richness; the images are sorely lacking in texture (particularly the wooden benches and walkway, but also the brick, tree bark, and tiled rooftops), tonality and contrast; the sky is desaturated to the point of being grayish, almost white; and the entire presentation appears curiously soft. I'm watching on a calibrated LG 55CX OLED. Maybe it's just because I'm used to the extraordinary color and contrast I'm seeing in Sony a7s III HDR footage, as well as stunning skin tones I haven't seen from any other camera in its price range or even beyond. I recommend anyone interested in seeing what the Pocket 6K is capable of to watch Eugene Belsky's videos on YouTube. What I'm seeing here is a scene that could be comfortably captured with any capable camcorder, nothing more. Lastly, when comparing the 6K Pro to the a7s III, it would make more sense to shoot ProRes RAW HQ, not XAVC internal, then transcode to ProRes 44444.
Last edited by JonPais on Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 3:37 am

The footage from the BMPCC 6k Pro was shot in 6k with Zeiss Lenses and exported in 4k
for Rec 709 Gamma 2.4 and uploaded to Youtube.

The footage was graded in DaVinci Resolve making full use of the waveform in Davinci Wide Gamut and the highlights were not blown out.

The Sony was shot in 4k with the same Zeiss lenses and exported the same way...

The footage was not graded for HDR, I used a 2020 27 5K iMac which only has a peak brightness of 500 nits.

It is possible I did not export in a high enough bit rate or it could be Youtube's compression.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 3:41 am

craigbeckta wrote:The footage from the BMPCC 6k Pro was shot in 6k with Zeiss Lenses and exported in 4k
for Rec 709 Gamma 2.4 and uploaded to Youtube.

The footage was graded in DaVinci Resolve making full use of the waveform in Davinci Wide Gamut and the highlights were not blown out.

The Sony was shot in 4k with the same Zeiss lenses and exported the same way...

The footage was not graded for HDR, I used a 2020 27 5K iMac which only has a peak brightness of 500 nits.

It is possible I did not export in a high enough bit rate or it could be Youtube's compression.

I edited my comment to say that an equitable comparison would be to shoot ProRes RAW HQ then transcode to ProRes 4444 rather than XAVC internal.

"The footage from the BMPCC 6k Pro was shot in 6k with Zeiss Lenses and exported in 4k
for Rec 709 Gamma 2.4 and uploaded to Youtube".

Ah ha! That explains why your YT videos look all washed out! I have a workflow explaining how to avoid washed out YT videos when exporting from DaVinci.

https://daejeonchronicles.com/2020/06/24/7313/

Unfortunately, I haven't gotten around to updating the workflow for Resolve 17, but anyone should be able to figure it out.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 10:11 am

I recommend anyone interested in seeing what the Pocket 6K is capable of to watch Eugene Belsky's videos on YouTube


I checked out Eugene Belsky's Youtube channel and he is using the:

Technical Specs:
Camera: Ursa Mini Pro 12k
Resolution: 12,288 x 6480
Blackmagic RAW Constant Bitrate 12:1
ISO 800-3200

Graded for Rec 2020 HDR using:

HDR Display:
ASUS ProArt PA32UC

So you are comparing a 12K camera with more dynamic range graded for Rec 2020 HDR
delivery to a 6K camera with less dynamic range graded for Rec 709.

Not the same at all, but thanks for your feedback.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 10:32 am

craigbeckta wrote:
I recommend anyone interested in seeing what the Pocket 6K is capable of to watch Eugene Belsky's videos on YouTube


I checked out Eugene Belsky's Youtube channel and he is using the:

Technical Specs:
Camera: Ursa Mini Pro 12k
Resolution: 12,288 x 6480
Blackmagic RAW Constant Bitrate 12:1
ISO 800-3200

Graded for Rec 2020 HDR using:

HDR Display:
ASUS ProArt PA32UC

So you are comparing a 12K camera with more dynamic range graded for Rec 2020 HDR
delivery to a 6K camera with less dynamic range graded for Rec 709.

Not the same at all, but thanks for your feedback.

Actually, Eugene Belsky has uploaded several 6K Pro videos. And wasn't it you who thought it fair to compare the internal 10-bit XAVC codec of the a7s III to 12-bit Blackmagic RAW and conceal the fact from your audience until well past the half-way mark of your video?
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 11:59 am

A suggestion:
These daytime exterior camera comparisons are not very useful, except to trigger polite arguments in the comments ;) Do you need to test a camera in the midday bright sunlight if you are only gonna shoot at magic hour and night? We all know there are amazing cameras out there at different price points so the real question is:
What is the genre: Documentary? , Commercial High Key lighting for Television? , YouTube?
what is the goal of the filmmaker, What kinds of feelings do they want to elicit
what kind of budget do they have to achieve the look they want.
Then camera tests are much more useful with that context.

It is also helpful to post the original output before YT gets its hands on it.

Regards!
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 12:04 pm

And wasn't it you who thought it fair to compare the internal 10-bit XAVC codec of the a7s III to 12-bit Blackmagic RAW and conceal the fact from your audience until well past the half-way mark of your video?


I didn't conceal anything, I mention I recorded both clips internally. What does it matter at what point I mention something?

You obviously want to stir up controversy for some reason.

I won't be replying or commenting on anymore of your posts.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 4:46 am

I'd say it's fair to compare cameras as they are instead of hanging extra recorders onto them.
Some Sony Alpha cameras were not even capable of recording UHD internally, but with a recorder they did.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 5:01 am

Uli Plank wrote:I'd say it's fair to compare cameras as they are instead of hanging extra recorders onto them.
Some Sony Alpha cameras were not even capable of recording UHD internally, but with a recorder they did.

That's a charming argument, but the reason he doesn't make an effort to compare the two cameras on a level playing field has nothing at all to do with some obsolescent cameras not recording 4K internally eons ago, but purportedly because he doesn't own a Ninja V. Either way, the YouTuber has an obligation to show what both cameras are capable of - which the frightfully mushy, washed-out upload fails miserably to accomplish.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 3:42 pm

The reality of the matter is that, with the Sony you're getting industry leading autofocus and ibis when you want to go super light. As well as the ability the hook up a Ninja V and get 12bit 4k ProRes raw up to 60fps. I've been a Blackmagic user for almost 10 years now and I recently bought an A7siii + Ninja V. I love the colors. I'm a stickler for colors. I love the colors. If you're going to grade, shooting in any raw format (I chose Slog3.Cine with the Sony), you're only talking about color science. I like Sony's color. I'll admit that Blackmagic's colors seem more "organic", but the Sony colors are closer to what we are used to seeing in TV and Movies. I shoot in ProRes Raw and convert to 1080p 444 so I can edit in Resolve. Looks awesome and I've use autofocus 99% of the time, with no issues. Granted you lose ibis when using the Ninja V, but I'm used to not having ibis anyway coming from Blackmagic. Not to mention dual native iso @ 640 & 12800 and....


I can honestly say that for run & gun I'd pick the A7siii over nearly everything out there. You have shoot professional quality and drop it in your bag for a vacation.... It felt strangely small when first holding it... It's actually more of a Pocket Cinema Camera than the Pocket 4k, 6k or 6k pro.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 4:08 pm

Que Thompson wrote:
I can honestly say that for run & gun I'd pick the A7siii over nearly everything out there. You have shoot professional quality and drop it in your bag for a vacation.... It felt strangely small when first holding it... It's actually more of a Pocket Cinema Camera than the Pocket 4k, 6k or 6k pro.


I think it's horses for courses a little bit. Obviously if you want AF and IBIS, then there's no question.

I would say, having watched the clip you linked, I think some of the mentioned issues are camera specific. Like the non matching WB. You don't really see those kinds of issues on BMD cameras. (it's one of the features of gen5 too) I also saw recently some even more horrific problems on BRAW external recording with the NEW sigma FP-L. Like really bad. I can't believe that's on the recorder / codec.

Something not talked about much with the way BRAW works is you'll see this reference to "profiling" the sensor to enable BRAW to work. In other words for the partial debayer to happen, the codec has to know what sensor it's looking at.

I think with these non BMD cameras that it's only as good as the data it's being fed :-)

BRAW of course has other advantages for BMD specifically that don't apply here, like the non scaling of sensor windows on the 12K which you could never do with proRes RAW. BMD started the sensor development of the 12K and BRAW at the same time a few years ago.

Try running the numbers on what a 12K ProRes RAW file size would be and you basically couldn't do it. That's why the 12K doesn't even have regular ProRes as an option. There's no point at those resolutions.

BMD HAD to make their own codec for the 12K sensor to work.

I would also point out that in all the testing I've seen, BRAW outperforms ProRes RAW in playback on Apple hardware. Again, a bit eyebrow raising. You'll notice Apple themselves love to demonstrate new hardware with Resolve. Watch what happens when the new M1X chips drop on the new laptops. I'll be amazed if they don't show it off running Resolve with BRAW when they launch.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 8:47 pm

Que Thompson wrote:I can honestly say that for run & gun I'd pick the A7siii over nearly everything out there. You have shoot professional quality and drop it in your bag for a vacation....

If you use it for run and gun, and don't setup an external recorder, is it worth choosing 10 bit over 8 bit recording on the A7S III?

Here are quotes from a recent article:
"In 99% of cases there seems to be little benefit to using 10bit other than more difficult to edit, larger file sizes. ...Even when really pushing the image by 5 stops in post and shooting in the flattest S-LOG 3 profile for maximum dynamic range, essentially 8bit goes toe to toe with 10bit for almost identical results. ...I’d like internal RAW codecs and we need them now. 10bit is a bit of a fudge! ...RAW is certainly a worthwhile leap up from 8bit, but it seems, equally as large a step up from 10bit as well.

And yet there’s still no answer to RED in terms of compressed, easy to edit RAW codec in our mirrorless cameras and due to patents may still be a long time away.
I think this shows why it is important not too hyped about 10bit.

On balance I’d prefer better editing performance (ProRes 10bit or a good 8bit file format) and for H.265/H.264 to remain a streaming codec for the web rather than for capture."

Sony A7S III – 10bit image quality, vs same camera in 8bit with surprising results
May 18, 2021


https://www.eoshd.com/news/sony-a7s-iii ... g-results/

Apple makes you buy a subscription based on a sliding scale to use ProRes raw. Blackmagic provides BRAW for free to Canon, Sigma, Nikon, Panasonic and others to use with their newer cameras that output a raw stream to Blackmagic recorders.

Here is a man who plunked down $4400 for the Sony A7S III with the Atomos Ninja V video recorder. He shot some video in ProRes raw and was surprised by lost highlights. He then recorded the same clip internally to a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 6K using Blackmagic raw.

He couldn't find the 15 stops of dynamic range in ProRes raw, and liked the 6K better. The 6K had better color and highlight recovery and he disliked Apple's support of ProRes raw. At 8000 ISO and below, the BMPCC 6Ks low light samples look better than the Sony A7S IIIs, although you can go to a higher ISO with it.

Sony A7S III vs Bmpcc 6k w/ Downloadable Files

https://www.reddit.com/r/videography/co ... ble_files/
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BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 12:01 am

I only shoot raw. I’m an image over file size guy. Plays in Resolve like butter. I’d have an external monitor in my setup anyway. The difference I see is in detail and color. Otherwise I’d use the 10 bit because I like to color grade. For personal videos, I’d choose 10bit, haven’t used 8 bit since??? 5d Mark iii??? Even there I had Magic Lantern loaded. GH4 maybe???

The average person can’t tell the difference anyway… between any of them. ProRes HQ Raw -> ProRes Raw (negligible) same for each as you step down… ProRes Raw -> 10 bit All-I (negligible) but the differences are there. Not to mention everyone is degrading the footage with diffusion filters and effects in post. I just want the most robust image i can to start with. Some will say the same about 3:1 vs 12:1 BRAW. Just comes down to personal taste.

Truthfully, the gap is closing quickly. BRAW vs Alexa. ProRes Raw vs Red… interchange them… All negligible differences these days. Now, to me, it comes down to convenience.

Every brand has a raw option now. All look great when lit properly. It used to be Image, Features and Price. IMO, image is falling from that formula.

And… I don’t like (maybe I should say “trust”) that guy you posted. As YouTuber’s go. Nothing against him personally. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The video I posted is by a guy who is more rooted in science (IMO)and a good dp (IMO). I’ve been following him since GH4 days.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 2:28 am

I agree with most of this, but one point regarding image is left: color science. Manufacturers have each their own opinion about what fits the taste of their main target audience. Sony in particular has a rough road behind them with most Alphas and skin tone. I admit, from Venice onwards they got better, and the A7S III is close.

But then, BM is damn close to Arri in this respect.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 2:59 am

Image quality gaps between modern cameras are getting smaller and smaller and choice for the individual user is probably better made on other aspects of their operation within their chosen application. I would question the relevance of a 24mp S35 sensor vs a 12mp 36x24mm sensor though as a user is equally as likely to factor this in as a usage / purchase factor over other differences. A7s III vs S1H ( or even S5/S1) may have been a more relevant comparison where there are more similarities than fundamental differences. Even P4k vs A7s III is closer when you factor in pixel count alone.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 3:39 am

John Griffin wrote:Image quality gaps between modern cameras are getting smaller and smaller and choice for the individual user is probably better made on other aspects of their operation within their chosen application. I would question the relevance of a 24mp S35 sensor vs a 12mp 36x24mm sensor though as a user is equally as likely to factor this in as a usage / purchase factor over other differences. A7s III vs S1H ( or even S5/S1) may have been a more relevant comparison where there are more similarities than fundamental differences. Even P4k vs A7s III is closer when you factor in pixel count alone.

Is pixel count really the determining factor when choosing a camera? Can any viewer really tell how many pixels were used to shoot the TV series Vinyl (9MP) or Birdman? (7.5MP)

Pixel count of various cameras: Canon C70 (9MP), Canon C300 Mark III (9MP), Sony FX6 (10MP), Sony FX3 (10MP), Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro 4.6K G2 (12MP), Arri Alexa Mini LF (13.77MP), RED Gemini 5K s35 (15.4MP).

Comparing the Komodo (19.9MP) to the C70 or an FX3 or a7s III to the Pocket 6K Pro is perfectly valid (provided the reviewer knows what they're doing!)
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 5:11 am

JonPais wrote:
John Griffin wrote:Image quality gaps between modern cameras are getting smaller and smaller and choice for the individual user is probably better made on other aspects of their operation within their chosen application. I would question the relevance of a 24mp S35 sensor vs a 12mp 36x24mm sensor though as a user is equally as likely to factor this in as a usage / purchase factor over other differences. A7s III vs S1H ( or even S5/S1) may have been a more relevant comparison where there are more similarities than fundamental differences. Even P4k vs A7s III is closer when you factor in pixel count alone.

Is pixel count really the determining factor when choosing a camera? Can any viewer really tell how many pixels were used to shoot the TV series Vinyl (9MP) or Birdman? (7.5MP)

Pixel count of various cameras: Canon C70 (9MP), Canon C300 Mark III (9MP), Sony FX6 (10MP), Sony FX3 (10MP), Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro 4.6K G2 (12MP), Arri Alexa Mini LF (13.77MP), RED Gemini 5K s35 (15.4MP).

Comparing the Komodo (19.9MP) to the C70 or an FX3 or a7s III to the Pocket 6K Pro is perfectly valid (provided the reviewer knows what they're doing!)

It’s a factor like any other. As to it being a deciding factor then this can only be judged by the individuals particular requirements. Just because the consumer may not see the difference in the final broadcast doesn’t mean the creator may not need more pixels as part of a particular production workflow. Anyway I thought you had strong opinions on the need for a level playing field when comparing cameras?
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 5:58 am

Regarding pixel counting, I'd suggest some reading:
https://ascmag.com/articles/a-clear-loo ... resolution
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 6:51 am

Uli Plank wrote:Regarding pixel counting, I'd suggest some reading:
https://ascmag.com/articles/a-clear-loo ... resolution

That's a good article.

I've been re-grading a bunch of my videos and one thing I changed was how I tackle noise reduction. In the past, I'd always done like the online tutorials - zooming in 999% and using higher quality settings than necessary - until the day I compared the before and after results on my LG OLED and realized no one was ever going to see that noise - even on a 77" display! So now, I apply much less than before.

Similarly, many of us have seen YouTubers do side-by-side comparisons of cameras like the alpha 1 or R5 against the a7s III and were wowed by how much more detailed the 8K sensors are. But in real life, the optimal viewing distance for a 65" 8K screen is two feet. Sit 4.3 feet or further from the screen and it'll look identical to a 4K screen of the same size.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 7:54 am

Same in a theater: if you are not sitting in the first 2 or 3 rows (depending on the venue), you'll not even see the difference between 2K and 4K projection.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 2:57 pm

Like with bit depth, there's a huge difference between the use of resolution and bit depth in ACQUISITION and in the end viewing DISTRIBUTION.

While you might not visually see the difference in an 8 bit file, once you start trying to grade it you sure as hell will.

When was it that our eyes became any reliable judge ?

This idea of not needing more resolution or bit depth because you can't "see" it is a false idea. Of course you can't see it in the end final result, but you're sure going to want it to get to that end result.

It's like arguing you can master and record a multi track album using .MP3.

Or I dunno, using 264 as an origination format because it "looks" the same.... Yes....you could...in well shot controlled conditions where you don't need to do anything to the shot, you probably can't tell much difference visually in a cinema, but you'll VERY quickly find the shortcomings as soon as you do any of the regular type of work of trying to grade, match, stabilise and work with footage that happens to every shot in the grade.

Could you do it ? Yes. Should you do it ? No.

This kind of pedantry over specs is usually based in trying to push other agendas. It's very difficult to distill the end creative result into a single headline spec.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 5:38 pm

There are many times pixel counts are dictated and mandated.

I just wrapped a series that wouldn't even allow the back ground plates for poor mans process be less than 4K, which means a lot of the stock footage from a site like https://www.drivingplates.com can't be used. Which means at huge expensive we have to shoot our own plates that the vast majority of the time, do not need to be 4K.

The Great is for Hulu. They also specify a 4K camera. You know of the several camera platforms I used on The Great, the principal camera DID NOT meet the Hulu requirement of 4K+ origination. I can't talk about how that came to be but Hulu certainly didn't want it that way and it was extraordinary circumstances that meant we ended up shooting with the platforms we shot with. No one including myself or the producers had that as a first choice platform.

There are those making those arguments in this thread. That's exactly what's being discussed. If you can't see the difference why shoot the difference.

But it's a holistic problem, one that has many caveats around story, distribution obligations, delivery items, post production methodologies, and just straight out creative approach.

Obviously Arri have shown that GOOD sub 4K is more than good enough to be Oscar worthy for a lot of very critical situations, but their sub 4K is done better than others 4K+.

As others have said. In a lot of situations many can't distinguish like for like in a cinema. I tested this myself many years ago when I shot the same short film several times on what was then the leading camera platforms of the day, 35mm, Super 16, RED, Alexa (Back when they only shot ProRes internally) an early F3 and a Canon 1DMK4. (They were also shot available light / no lighting)

I finished and printed these films onto film and created a DCP and then screened both the film print and the digital versions back to back in a cinema with an audile of several hundred.

Most surprising was how little mostly film practitioners could tell the difference between them all, from very expensive platforms to very low cost. In a blind test they were all very much closer than the price tags seemed they would be.

However, in the creation of those films, you sure did a lot more work in the grading just to get them to be in reasonable shape.

https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2011/ ... ly-online/
(This was done ten years ago)

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 6:06 pm

John Brawley wrote:The Great is for Hulu. They also specify a 4K camera. You know of the several camera platforms I used on The Great, the principal camera DID NOT meet the Hulu requirement of 4K+ origination.
JB


I'm just curious... Is there a way to tell if you shot something sub 4k, then exported or transcoded to 4k+? Is this just on the honor system?
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 6:28 pm

Que Thompson wrote:I'm just curious... Is there a way to tell if you shot something sub 4k, then exported or transcoded to 4k+? Is this just on the honor system?


:-)

When there's millions of dollars per episode, there's a fair bit of oversight. So you can't really pull a fast one, nor would you want to fraudulently deliver something that you know isn't what you're contracted to deliver.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 6:35 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Que Thompson wrote:I'm just curious... Is there a way to tell if you shot something sub 4k, then exported or transcoded to 4k+? Is this just on the honor system?


:-)

When there's millions of dollars per episode, there's a fair bit of oversight. So you can't really pull a fast one, nor would you want to fraudulently deliver something that you know isn't what you're contracted to deliver.

JB


Makes sense, I was thinking of a movie that was shot then sold to Netflix or something. I guess it wouldn't have those stipulations if they wanted the movie.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 6:50 pm

Que Thompson wrote:
Makes sense, I was thinking of a movie that was shot then sold to Netflix or something. I guess it wouldn't have those stipulations if they wanted the movie.


Those rules only apply to Netflix Originals.

If you're selling them something that's already been made they don't care what it was shot on, only that it's good enough for people to watch.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 1:16 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don’t think anyone was insisting that just because you can’t tell the difference between 2K and 4K at the movie theater that everyone must shoot 2K or that there aren’t situations where more Ks aren’t desirable.

As for comparisons, people are always eager to see how cameras of different sensor sizes and megapixel counts like the Komodo, FX3, C70, etc. stack up against one another, so it's unquestionably a legitimate undertaking. It's also fun and entertaining.

For example, the 4K BRAW of a a 60MP sensor camera could very well turn out to be 'a soft, artifcaty, aliasing mess' with nightmarish rolling shutter.

So in reply to one forum member's comment, pixel count alone should probably not be the sole determining factor: image quality, reliability, ergonomics, workflow, clients' dictates, or as is so often the case, your budget or already being heavily invested in a system are all decisive factors. As John Brawley acknowledges, a petty adherence to specs, like a client demanding 4K when not even necessary, can really drive up costs.

Returning to earth, I don't think anyone's shooting Mindhunter with an a7s III or Pocket 6K anyhow. :)

I can’t get on board with 8-bit, but that’s just someone’s opinion. It’s fine if all you’re shooting is lightbulb filaments and dusty old camera lenses lying around the house, I suppose.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

John Brawley wrote:...using 264 as an origination format because it "looks" the same.... Yes....you could...in well shot controlled conditions where you don't need to do anything to the shot, you probably can't tell much difference visually in a cinema, but you'll VERY quickly find the shortcomings as soon as you do any of the regular type of work of trying to grade, match, stabilise and work with footage that happens to every shot in the grade.

Could you do it ? Yes. Should you do it ? No.

Touche!

Looking back, I can see how this question of considering recording in 8 bit can touch a nerve, and seem like a dumb question. What I was getting at was how an expensive camera, being sold for it's convenience, and hobbled by the lack of a high quality internal codec is not the best replacement for a Blackmagic camera. Apple lost their lawsuit with RED, and may never be able to offer ProRes raw as an internal option to compete with BRAW.

Maybe shooting using the 10 bit internal codec on the A7S III can produce something that can stand up to BRAW on a Blackmagic camera. I have my doubts, and would like to see a comparison. That article equating it with 8 bit recording calls it's quality into question.

Maybe the need for a heat sinking solid connection of the sensor used for a high bitrate codec means that Blackmagic will never offer OIS, but I wish they could find some way to offer the AF technology offered by OM Digital (Olympus) or something similar. Maybe then we wouldn't be tempted to leave the reservation and invest in a patent protected proprietary set of lenses that would keep us from ever returning.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 6:15 am

dondidnod wrote:
John Brawley wrote:...using 264 as an origination format because it "looks" the same.... Yes....you could...in well shot controlled conditions where you don't need to do anything to the shot, you probably can't tell much difference visually in a cinema, but you'll VERY quickly find the shortcomings as soon as you do any of the regular type of work of trying to grade, match, stabilise and work with footage that happens to every shot in the grade.

Could you do it ? Yes. Should you do it ? No.
Maybe shooting using the 10 bit internal codec on the A7S III can produce something that can stand up to BRAW on a Blackmagic camera. I have my doubts, and would like to see a comparison. That article equating it with 8 bit recording calls it's quality into question.
Why don't you just download some footage and see for yourself?
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 7:35 am

dondidnod wrote:Touche!

Looking back, I can see how this question of considering recording in 8 bit can touch a nerve, and seem like a dumb question. What I was getting at was how an expensive camera, being sold for it's convenience, and hobbled by the lack of a high quality internal codec is not the best replacement for a Blackmagic camera. Apple lost their lawsuit with RED, and may never be able to offer ProRes raw as an internal option to compete with BRAW.

Maybe shooting using the 10 bit internal codec on the A7S III can produce something that can stand up to BRAW on a Blackmagic camera. I have my doubts, and would like to see a comparison. That article equating it with 8 bit recording calls it's quality into question.

Maybe the need for a heat sinking solid connection of the sensor used for a high bitrate codec means that Blackmagic will never offer OIS, but I wish they could find some way to offer the AF technology offered by OM Digital (Olympus) or something similar. Maybe then we wouldn't be tempted to leave the reservation and invest in a patent protected proprietary set of lenses that would keep us from ever returning.


#1 - I don’t see why it matters if it is an internal codec or not.

#2 - There are sooooooooooo many comparisons on YouTube. Go there.

#3 - There are technical differences and there is what the eye can see. If the piece is going to be viewed online you open another can of worms with compression. Is the Pocket 4K as good as an Alexa? Looks like it on YouTube. As a matter of fact, the iPhone 12 Pro isn’t looking too bad by those standards.

#4 - Who cares really? People zooming in 400% to say… “look at that, you see that?! this camera actually sucks!” are most likely not the ones bringing stories to life. People worried about K’s generally just want to say “hey look at my camera, it’s cooler than yours.” If I see another HDR 8k video of somebody’s backyard or local park I’m going to jump off a building.

#5 - I’m not married to any brand. Whoever is delivering the best product for me has my money. Do you know how much easier it is to sell an A7siii than a Blackmagic camera? It’s use cases cover a much wider range of people.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 8:40 am

Que Thompson wrote:#1 - I don’t see why it matters if it is an internal codec or not.

In 2016 I wanted a Sony A7R II and an Atomos Ninja Blade so I could record 10 bit HD. I would have paid over $3700 USD for something that is worth less than $800 today.

Since the 10 bit recording option was not internal, the A7R II was not a complete 10 bit solution, and depreciated much more rapidly than say, an OG BMPCC, or a Panasonic GH5S, which is. The external recorders seem to become obsolete in 1 year, with better models to upgrade to all the time, with more features. That Ninja Blade sells for $115 USD today if you can find someone who wants it. It seems like a poor investment in equipment to buy a camera that is not a complete solution, or requires a subscription to a codec.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 8:48 am

Did it even output 10 bit? I’m not so sure.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 9:20 am

Uli Plank wrote:Did it even output 10 bit? I’m not so sure.

No, the a7R II never output 10-bit to an Atomos recorder or any other device for that matter. It’s understandable, given that he’s juggling around three cameras that he never owned, that were not even part of the equation, for which he had to do a quick Google search to run by the numbers to make a weak sauce argument.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 9:59 am

JonPais wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:Did it even output 10 bit? I’m not so sure.

No, the a7R II never output 10-bit.

If that's true then the Sony rep that I met at Samy's Camera gave me a bum steer when they did the product introduction.

I told him that I needed 10 bit to use it for green screen and he said it would work fine for that. I thought that it was the Holy Grail at the time, even though it was only HD. I even grabbed a handful of Sony brochures and gave them to the Dean of the Multimedia Studies department at my college so she could use them when making out the budget to replace the old Panasonic HVX-200A's we were using for 720P green screen work.


I didn't check to see if there was an added firmware update cost like there is with some Sony cameras to enhance their recording features however.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 10:55 am

Although only 8bit out to a recorder the codec you record to is much better than the internal one due to the lesser compression so you have quite a bit of an advantage there for green screen work. (A lot of the reason people complain about 8 bit is due to the compression used on internal codecs rather than 8bit itself). Not as good as 10bit but way better than the internal one (which isn't 'that bad'). The A7rII in APS-C crop mode produced pretty good 4k for it's day which will down sample to HD quite nicely. Avoid the full sensor mode though.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 11:05 am

I just checked mine, it was still sleeping in the dry cabinet: no, just 8 bit.
OTOH, it seems to deliver 422 by HDMI and that can be more important for greenscreen as long as you don't need to tweak the picture.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 11:30 am

Uli Plank wrote:I just checked mine, it was still sleeping in the dry cabinet: no, just 8 bit.
OTOH, it seems to deliver 422 by HDMI and that can be more important for greenscreen as long as you don't need to tweak the picture.

Great. If the price continues to drop it might be a good option for all of the teenagers on Reddit that are constantly asking for what's the best camera to spend their allowance on.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 12:09 pm

dondidnod wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:I just checked mine, it was still sleeping in the dry cabinet: no, just 8 bit.
OTOH, it seems to deliver 422 by HDMI and that can be more important for greenscreen as long as you don't need to tweak the picture.

Great. If the price continues to drop it might be a good option for all of the teenagers on Reddit that are constantly asking for what's the best camera to spend their allowance on.

The subreddit you belong to, by chance?
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 12:41 pm

dondidnod wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:I just checked mine, it was still sleeping in the dry cabinet: no, just 8 bit.
OTOH, it seems to deliver 422 by HDMI and that can be more important for greenscreen as long as you don't need to tweak the picture.

Great. If the price continues to drop it might be a good option for all of the teenagers on Reddit that are constantly asking for what's the best camera to spend their allowance on.

I wouldn't buy one now for video use but it's still a very good stills camera (42mp with 14 stop DR) For a good video camera on a budget / teenager it's still hard not to recommend a used GH5 as it has 10bit internal and can do high frame rate at 10bit to an external recorder.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 12:47 pm

JonPais wrote:The subreddit you belong to, by chance?

Although I haved joined several Reddit communities (r/M43, r/cameras, r/Cinematography, r/sounddesign, r/VIDEOENGINEERING, r/BMPCC_4K, r/ProVideo, r/ProAudioVisual, r/Shutterfeed, r/photography, r/AskPhotography, r/blackmagicdesign, r/bmpcc4k, r/bmpcc - Australianimage is active there, and as salty as ever), the r/videography and r/filmmakers subs seem to have a lot of young guys looking for gear suggestions and a lot of posters pulling 'facts' out of thin air, and sometimes their kester.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 5:06 pm

SONY a7SIII vs ALEXA Mini LF vs VENICE 6K :lol:





Sony A7S III vs BMPCC6K



Both of these are shot using the A7siii internal 10 bit codec.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 2:34 am

dondidnod wrote:Apple lost their lawsuit with RED, and may never be able to offer ProRes raw as an internal option to compete with BRAW.


Indeed. I can't see it happening. Kinefinity have already pulled ProRes RAW after announcing it would be shipping with their new 8K camera. Now all you get is Vanilla ProRes 444. Not a terrible codec, but still, @8K not very efficient and...it's ProRes....

Who wants 8K ProRes XQ files....no one. And what media do you need, especially if you're not shooting at sync speed for those size files / data rates. No thanks.

https://ymcinema.com/2021/03/01/kinefin ... a-cameras/

I don't think we'll see ProRes RAW internal on any camera anytime soon. That's a major problem. Because you can only get ProRes RAW recording from one vendor. And it requires you buying into their eco system. Not a great future there....No one I know wants external recorders.


dondidnod wrote:Maybe shooting using the 10 bit internal codec on the A7S III can produce something that can stand up to BRAW on a Blackmagic camera.


Nope.

BRAW for starters is 12 bit log, unpacking to 16 bit lin so I'm thinking not a chance in hell. That's before you even talk compression.

dondidnod wrote:, but I wish they could find some way to offer the AF technology offered by OM Digital (Olympus) or something similar. Maybe then we wouldn't be tempted to leave the reservation and invest in a patent protected proprietary set of lenses that would keep us from ever returning.


More likely we will see post based focus technology like what you get on a brilliant and amazingly cheap app like this.

http://focos.me

How long till this is a feature in Resolve?

AF is hard. Even Canon / Sony who've thrown TENS OF MILLIONS just at AF aren't really anywhere near perfect for what "we" want.

BMD don't have that kind money to R&D. They'll more likely focus on other things that can do.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 2:52 am

And they found a damn clever concept to work around Red's patent.
I doubt we'll see any alternative to BRAW soon with the same balance of IQ and storage demands.

And thanks for mentioning Focos. I may have to sell all my vintage glass ;-)
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 5:10 am

Before anyone gets all riled up, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so please play nice. I'm pixel and brand agnostic. :)

This comment is not about (a) RED's patent (b) whether BRAW is superior to ProRes RAW (c) whether DaVinci Resolve is better than a half dozen other NLEs (d) who is a nicer human being, Jeromy Young or Grant Petty or (e) Sony vs. BMD. It is just about the internal/external thing.

So the argument goes that if you want ProRes RAW, you've got to buy into the Atomos ecosystem (gasp!) - but if you're itching for internal BRAW, aren't you likewise shackled into Blackmagic's ecosystem? That is, aren't you constrained to purchasing a BMD camera that may or may not be as suited to your needs (I know, right?) as say, any other cinema camera - or even a MILC?

Imagine if you will that due to present circumstances we're no longer able to shoot Hollywood blockbusters but instead, we're compelled to shoot mundane documentaries, travel and nature films, product photography, YouTube videos, music videos, corporate training videos, weddings, real estate, fashion and beauty, food or fitness videos. Cringe, right?

An Atomos recorder suddenly opens up RAW recording to over 30 different cameras by a half dozen manufacturers (incl. some mirrorless cameras whose internal codecs Netflix foolishly deemed sufficient for Netflix Originals). We can even put that miserable hybrid to use to put food on the table. Recording externally also opens up the possibility of a previously unheard-of number of formats - in addition to the internal RAW of the camera itself, ProRes RAW, Blackmagic RAW, H.265, Log, HLG, ProRes and more - translating into extraordinary versatility.

As for the alleged cost savings of recording internally, two approved Angelbird SDXC V90 256GB cards will set you back USD $800.00, the same as a Ninja V / 1TB SSD - kind of like throwing in two extra Angelbirds and a 1,000 nit HDR monitor that can also record 6K RAW for free! I've heard a few souls online complain that external recorders eventually don't support the formats you need, but isn't that also true of SD cards? I've got dozens of expensive SD cards gathering dust in my dresser drawer that are no longer fast enough for many of today's cameras! All tech stuff eventually becomes outdated - including BMD cameras.

Lastly, serious productions kind of require external monitors anyhow, and HDR absolutely demands one.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 6:12 am

Would BMD consider exchanging internal Braw recording on a per model basis with another manufacturer for something like superior AF?
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 8:50 am

Why does shooting for HDR 'absolutely demand' an HDR monitor?
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 9:09 am

John Griffin wrote:Why does shooting for HDR 'absolutely demand' an HDR monitor?

Because you can't judge an HDR image on an SDR display.
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Re: BMPCC 6K Pro vs Sony A7S III?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 9:35 am

JonPais wrote:
John Griffin wrote:Why does shooting for HDR 'absolutely demand' an HDR monitor?

Because you can't judge an HDR image on an SDR display.

That would obviously be the case during post production but why during image capture? As long as you can expose correctly via the normal exposure controls built into cameras like zebras, false colour etc I can't see the 'absolute demand' for this even if it's nice to have. In addition viewing an HDR monitor in a working i.e brightly lit environment defeats it's HDR capability although the increased nits of these displays certainly makes them usable in bright environments but that's not the same thing.
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