Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

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johngwheeler

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Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 2:09 am

I've just bought a BMPCC 4K and have been experimenting with a couple of battery solutions.

I bought a Small Rig battery plate for NP-F batteries thinking that this would give me the option of much better battery life. However with 2600mAH NP-F550 batteries, the battery life isn't much longer than the included 2000mAH LP-E6 battery.

Doing a continuous recording at 24fps with BRAW 8:1, recording to SSD with LCD at 100% brightness, I got:
1) included LP-E6 battery: 50m15s

2) "Neewer" 2600mAH NP-F550 battery via Small Rig battery plate to 12V input: 1hr5 minutes

This makes sense from a capacity proportion - about 30% more capacity in the NP-F battery and 30% longer run time.

I was expecting much worse battery life with the LP-E6 battery, having read reports of 20 minute usage life.

I am limited in the size of NP-F battery that I can use on the Small Rig plate due to its position. I have it mounted on top of the cage (on the left side so as not to obscure the camera function buttons), but under the top handle. I can't fit a larger NP-F battery under the top handle, and there aren't any other good options for positioning the battery plate without using rods and mounting the battery behind the screen. Mounting on top right is possible, but makes it hard to reach the record, ISO, WB & shutter angle buttons.

Would I be better off finding higher capacity LP-E6 batteries? I saw some (cheap) 3200mAH batteries advertised, which if correct, would exceed the capacity of the NP-F550.

I could then use larger NP-F batteries mounted on some rods, when I want to rig the camera out more completely (follow-focus would be the next accessory I add, and I need rods for this I think)

Presumably the real run-time of a battery is based on the mAH rating and not the actual type of battery?
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 2:48 am

johngwheeler wrote:Would I be better off finding higher capacity LP-E6 batteries? I saw some (cheap) 3200mAH batteries advertised, which if correct, would exceed the capacity of the NP-F550.

I could then use larger NP-F batteries mounted on some rods, when I want to rig the camera out more completely (follow-focus would be the next accessory I add, and I need rods for this I think)

Presumably the real run-time of a battery is based on the mAH rating and not the actual type of battery?


One thing is for certain: cheapness and much higher capacity are two contradicting properties when it comes to LP-E6 style batteries. When some fantasy name manufacturers do advertise their third party LP-E6 battery with 3200 mAh - don’t believe that. They can’t deliver. Those batteries will perform worse than the 2000 mAh from Canon or other well known brands.
The PCC4K draws so much power from the battery that most cheap batteries fail fast.

Powering from a 7.4 V battery to the 12 V input also needs some lossy up conversion. Best way would be to make use of micro v-mount batteries with 14.4 V, but mounting is still tricky.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 5:21 am

When I want to go light I use nfp 970 Baxxtar of 10.000 mAh and work fine for hours. I put the battery plate on my cage on right side (I not use grip and use ssd) or left upper position. It’s matter of taste where put battery. I use also with spiral cable on my belt when I use gimbal.


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dondidnod

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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 5:52 am

I find that I can record for 60 minutes using a genuine Sony LP-E6 battery with accurate time remaining in percentage on the display. The Blackmagic LP-E6 batteries lose their capacity faster than the Sony batteries.

I use a Smallrig NATO top handle on a Smallrig full cage on my BMPCC 4K, and if I mount it forward, I can position an Andoer F2-BP NP-F Battery to V-Mount Battery Converter Adapter Plate Fit F970 with two batteries on it. You could use a regular V-Mount battery instead, but the F970s are a lot cheaper, and can be used for my LED lights in the field if I don't use them for the camera. Here is the breakdown on this setup:

Re: Best battery for Pocket 4K?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87085&p=496297&hilit=+Aliexpress+Panasonoic+EAR+Tech+Store+#p496297
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 7:05 am

Robert Niessner wrote:
johngwheeler wrote:Would I be better off finding higher capacity LP-E6 batteries? I saw some (cheap) 3200mAH batteries advertised, which if correct, would exceed the capacity of the NP-F550.

I could then use larger NP-F batteries mounted on some rods, when I want to rig the camera out more completely (follow-focus would be the next accessory I add, and I need rods for this I think)

Presumably the real run-time of a battery is based on the mAH rating and not the actual type of battery?


One thing is for certain: cheapness and much higher capacity are two contradicting properties when it comes to LP-E6 style batteries. When some fantasy name manufacturers do advertise their third party LP-E6 battery with 3200 mAh - don’t believe that. They can’t deliver. Those batteries will perform worse than the 2000 mAh from Canon or other well known brands.
The PCC4K draws so much power from the battery that most cheap batteries fail fast.

Powering from a 7.4 V battery to the 12 V input also needs some lossy up conversion. Best way would be to make use of micro v-mount batteries with 14.4 V, but mounting is still tricky.


Thanks Robert. I too am doubtful of the claims of 3200mAH from an e-Bay vendor! I haven't checked out micro-V-mount, but it looks interesting, although a lot more expensive and larger than the NP-F batteries.

Any particular brand of LP-E6 battery that you would recommend for the BMPCC4K? The supplied battery seems to have no branding, but it works quite well.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 7:16 am

dondidnod wrote:I find that I can record for 60 minutes using a genuine Sony LP-E6 battery with accurate time remaining in percentage on the display. The Blackmagic LP-E6 batteries lose their capacity faster than the Sony batteries.

I use a Smallrig NATO top handle on a Smallrig full cage on my BMPCC 4K, and if I mount it forward, I can position an Andoer F2-BP NP-F Battery to V-Mount Battery Converter Adapter Plate Fit F970 with two batteries on it. You could use a regular V-Mount battery instead, but the F970s are a lot cheaper, and can be used for my LED lights in the field if I don't use them for the camera. Here is the breakdown on this setup:

Re: Best battery for Pocket 4K?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87085&p=496297&hilit=+Aliexpress+Panasonoic+EAR+Tech+Store+#p496297


Ah! I hadn't thought of mounting the top-handle forward :-)

This is my current configuration. As you can see I have the SSD mounted vertically on the front of the top-handle, so that would have to move if I reverse the direction of the handle, so I'd have to find another spot for it...

Happy to hear people's thought on where to mount the battery! I've tried putting the battery plate vertically on the left or right sides of the cage but it gets in the way of the ports (on the left) or makes operating the camera handheld very awkward (on the or mounted on top of the cage on the right). Can't put in underneath because I'd have to remove it for tripd use. It could go on top of the the top-handle, I suppose, but then I also use and external monitor mounted there....

IMG_5748.jpeg
BMPCC 4K rig
IMG_5748.jpeg (144.7 KiB) Viewed 3725 times
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dondidnod

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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 7:26 am

Smallrig is having a sale if you order direct from them.

You can also enjoy a 50%OFF discount if you buy any two of the products as below.
:D
SmallRig Mounting Cheese Plate 1598 was $24.90 $7.90
SmallRig Samsung T5 SSD Mount for BMPCC 4K/6K and Z CAM 2245Bb $29.90
SmallRig Camera/Camcorder Action Stabilizing NATO Handle 1955 $40.80
SmallRig Cage for Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K & 6K 2203B $79.00

Check below for many more items

https://www.smallrig.com/outlets/summer ... PQUXb_gO34
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 7:27 am

Actually, putting the battery plate on the top handle might be a workable solution...

battery-on-top-handle.jpeg
battery-on-top-handle.jpeg (138.58 KiB) Viewed 3714 times


The larger NP-F970 battery might obscure the external monitor though...so what about this:

battery-on-left-of-handle.jpeg
battery-on-left-of-handle.jpeg (151.39 KiB) Viewed 3714 times


Not ideal for using the handle for actual filming, but maybe manageable...
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rick.lang

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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 3:11 pm

A genuine NP-F970 mounted as in your picture above will give you longer recording but not cheap.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 8:06 pm

Since we are mentioning NP-F batteries here I would recommend looking into the BP-U series batteries as well (the ones used on the FS5 etc). BP-U are 14.4V like a V-mount and only slightly larger than the NP-F. There are plates available just like for the NP-F but they are entirely passive without the need of lossy up-conversion.

I have been using PB-U batteries for many years now when I need something smaller than V-mount. Very happy with the performance. But as with all batteries, make sure you get good ones from a well known brand.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 4:00 am

Daniel Tufvesson wrote:Since we are mentioning NP-F batteries here I would recommend looking into the BP-U series batteries as well (the ones used on the FS5 etc). BP-U are 14.4V like a V-mount and only slightly larger than the NP-F. There are plates available just like for the NP-F but they are entirely passive without the need of lossy up-conversion.

I have been using PB-U batteries for many years now when I need something smaller than V-mount. Very happy with the performance. But as with all batteries, make sure you get good ones from a well known brand.


Thanks Daniel. Something else to consider!
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 8:36 am

For reference this is how a small setup could look with a relatively large BP-U60 (60Wh).
With the added left side handle the rig is well balanced.
image0.jpg
image0.jpg (885.19 KiB) Viewed 3612 times
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 9:20 am

Daniel Tufvesson wrote:For reference this is how a small setup could look with a relatively large BP-U60 (60Wh).
With the added left side handle the rig is well balanced.
image0.jpg


Thanks. I tried this position for the battery plate, and found it hard to operate the 3 function buttons because there is very little space between the bottom of the plate and the camera - basically just the thickness of the cage. Do you not use these buttons much?

The record, ISO, WB, shutter buttons have just about enough room as long as you don't have fat fingers!
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 9:33 am

I put the smallrig plate on a nato rail clamp, and a mini nato rail on the front or back edge of the top handle.
With my 3400 mAh Hawk-Woods I get 1h15 plus the 44min internal battery, almost 2h straight ! I find no issues using the Smallrig plate and leaving the internal battery, as the Smallrig has regulated output.

Sometimes for the balance of the cam (big lens) it is even better to put a 10000 mAh Hawk-Woods in the plate, this gives at least half a day battery life. And you can hot-swap if you leave the internal battery.

Tip: I always start with a fully charged internal battery, otherwise your external will be charging the internal one.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 9:51 am

johngwheeler wrote:Thanks. I tried this position for the battery plate, and found it hard to operate the 3 function buttons because there is very little space between the bottom of the plate and the camera - basically just the thickness of the cage. Do you not use these buttons much?

The record, ISO, WB, shutter buttons have just about enough room as long as you don't have fat fingers!
I totally agree that there is not much room to reach the function buttons with the battery plate mounted on top like that. I can reach F3 with my thumb but for F1 and F2 I have to use my index finger so I can work around it but that will sure vary from person to person.

To increase the space maybe add something like a cheese bar as a spacer.
CheeseBar.jpg
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 12:21 pm

i met someone over the weekend who has 3 indipro top handles which double as batteries https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1536739-REG/indipro_tools_ipgrip46kg_universal_power_grip_for.html
they're not cheap but his rig was pretty small and compact compared to mine.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 3:34 am

Yannick Willox wrote:I put the smallrig plate on a nato rail clamp, and a mini nato rail on the front or back edge of the top handle.
With my 3400 mAh Hawk-Woods I get 1h15 plus the 44min internal battery, almost 2h straight ! I find no issues using the Smallrig plate and leaving the internal battery, as the Smallrig has regulated output.

Sometimes for the balance of the cam (big lens) it is even better to put a 10000 mAh Hawk-Woods in the plate, this gives at least half a day battery life. And you can hot-swap if you leave the internal battery.

Tip: I always start with a fully charged internal battery, otherwise your external will be charging the internal one.


Interesting to note that the Smallrig battery plate has a regulated ouput.

I have been religiously removing the internal battery (fully charged) every time I use the NP-F battery, based on the BM recommendations from another thread (and the user guide).

Is these really not an important issue with the Smallrig battery plate? The idea of having a hot-spot (or automatic failover) is very attractive.

One downside of powering the camera via the 12V input is that there is no battery life indicator - it just appears a "AC". The LEDs on the battery plate are not representative of the actual usable life I found, with a very rapid move from 2 green LEDs to a single flashing green to power off, within a short period time.

I've had to use the voltage level shown on the camera as a rough guide, but it won't tell give you an accurate view of when the battery is about to expire. I think it gets to 11.2V and then it could turn off at any moment.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 3:35 am

AlwaysWritePat wrote:i met someone over the weekend who has 3 indipro top handles which double as batteries https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1536739-REG/indipro_tools_ipgrip46kg_universal_power_grip_for.html
they're not cheap but his rig was pretty small and compact compared to mine.


These look nice! But quite expensive, and a bit of a hassle if you have other stuff mounted on the handle.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 6:16 am

I gave up on battery solutions that attach to the camera as I found the size and bulk just made the camera big and awkward. Currently I have a battery pack I can keep in my bag or on a strap over my shoulder or for long static situations just hang off the tripod with a long cable to a dummy battery that I just connect up when operating the camera. You could also run it to the DC input and retain the internal battery to guard against accidental disconnection. It won’t work for everyone for sure.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 7:14 am

johngwheeler wrote:
Yannick Willox wrote:I put the smallrig plate on a nato rail clamp, and a mini nato rail on the front or back edge of the top handle.
With my 3400 mAh Hawk-Woods I get 1h15 plus the 44min internal battery, almost 2h straight ! I find no issues using the Smallrig plate and leaving the internal battery, as the Smallrig has regulated output.

Sometimes for the balance of the cam (big lens) it is even better to put a 10000 mAh Hawk-Woods in the plate, this gives at least half a day battery life. And you can hot-swap if you leave the internal battery.

Tip: I always start with a fully charged internal battery, otherwise your external will be charging the internal one.


Interesting to note that the Smallrig battery plate has a regulated ouput.

I have been religiously removing the internal battery (fully charged) every time I use the NP-F battery, based on the BM recommendations from another thread (and the user guide).

Is these really not an important issue with the Smallrig battery plate? The idea of having a hot-spot (or automatic failover) is very attractive.

One downside of powering the camera via the 12V input is that there is no battery life indicator - it just appears a "AC". The LEDs on the battery plate are not representative of the actual usable life I found, with a very rapid move from 2 green LEDs to a single flashing green to power off, within a short period time.

I've had to use the voltage level shown on the camera as a rough guide, but it won't tell give you an accurate view of when the battery is about to expire. I think it gets to 11.2V and then it could turn off at any moment.


IMO (not documented by Blackmagicdesign - they really should do this !) the problem is the BMPCC4K does not have an intelligent 12V input. This means, if your external battery drops below 10.5V or even lower, the cam does not switch from external to internal. A conflict between the two exists at that point, and you are powering the cam with too low voltage (=too much current draw).
However, since the Smallrig plate gives a continuous 11.5-12V, and you start with a full internal battery, the cam always thinks it is on the AC adapter. The moment the Smallrig plate detects too low battery capacity, it switches off, and the cam switches over to internal battery (without interruption), as if you just pulled the AC adapter.

I really do not see the danger in this, I think it is purely some kind of lazyness from BM, I understand they do not want to test every external power option and cover it under their warrenty ...

I have been powering my 3 cams for over a year, with two smallrig plates and one (regulated) 14.5 V power bank (which switches off before dropping below 10.5V) - never had an issue with the internal battery.

There ARE people all over the fora powering their bmpcc4K with a battery that will drop to 7.5V, and of course at some point they blow up the camera. They seemingly are blind for the red indication on screen.
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John Griffin

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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 7:38 am

I'm no electronics expert but when the voltage drops on a battery it's an indicator that then total energy is dropping (W=VxA) so how will this blow the camera as there is less power available to draw.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 8:25 am

John Griffin wrote:I'm no electronics expert but when the voltage drops on a battery it's an indicator that then total energy is dropping (W=V*I) so how will this blow the camera as there is less power available to draw.
In a way that is what is happening in the camera and your assumption is true for a simple resistive load but the camera is more complicated.

The camera has a switch mode converter on the input. This converter will maintain power, W=V*I. When the battery voltage drops, it will increase input current to maintain the output. This works fine to a certain extent and is how the regulator maintains a stable supply to the camera.

But problems arise if the converter operate outside it's limits. If the input voltage is too low, the current may exceed component specifications and a failure can occur.

This is why it is important to have some form of automatic shutoff on the battery side and ensure to always keep the camera supply within specifications, both upper and lower limit.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 8:48 am

Daniel Tufvesson wrote:
John Griffin wrote:I'm no electronics expert but when the voltage drops on a battery it's an indicator that then total energy is dropping (W=V*I) so how will this blow the camera as there is less power available to draw.
In a way that is what is happening in the camera and your assumption is true for a simple resistive load but the camera is more complicated.

The camera has a switch mode converter on the input. This converter will maintain power, W=V*I. When the battery voltage drops, it will increase input current to maintain the output. This works fine to a certain extent and is how the regulator maintains a stable supply to the camera.

But problems arise if the converter operate outside it's limits. If the input voltage is too low, the current may exceed component specifications and a failure can occur.

This is why it is important to have some form of automatic shutoff on the battery side and ensure to always keep the camera supply within specifications, both upper and lower limit.

I thought the camera just shuts down when the voltage drops below a certain limit or is this only on the battery port and not the 12v?
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Daniel Tufvesson

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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 9:56 am

John Griffin wrote:I thought the camera just shuts down when the voltage drops below a certain limit or is this only on the battery port and not the 12v?
That is a very good question. I don't know but I would expect the camera to have safety cutoff on the LP-E6 battery side in case the battery used does not have built-in protection.

But the 12-20V DC input is different. The voltage range is well suited for something like a 4 cell Li-Ion battery (think V-mount or BP-U) where the safety cutoff voltage is not lower than 3V per cell (4*3V=12V) and all decent batteries in this class will have built-in safety circuits that will cut power at above 12V. In most cases batteries will cutoff completely until charged again. I don't know if there is any under-voltage cutoff on the DC input. I know people have reported the camera to operate at close to 10V which I would definitely not recommend.

When driving the camera from a battery solution with active regulation things get more complicated. The regulator must have proper under-voltage protection with decent hold-off time to prevent dangerous oscillations. I would not trust any cheap converter here. Even if the converter claims to have under- and over-voltage protections I have seen too many bad implementations to comfortably recommend anyone using a solution like that unless the specific product is very well made and tested.
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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 11:11 am

I went with the battery grip solution and a couple of Baxxtar that last 3hrs.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 12:08 pm

That's how I rig my PCC4k for run and gun:

2021-06-09_09-37-21_IMG_1955-hd.jpg
2021-06-09_09-37-21_IMG_1955-hd.jpg (760.76 KiB) Viewed 3343 times


2021-06-09_09-37-08_IMG_1954-hd.jpg
2021-06-09_09-37-08_IMG_1954-hd.jpg (770.31 KiB) Viewed 3343 times


The setup consists of:
  • PCC4k
  • Olympus Pro 12-100 f/4.0 lens with a gear for wireless focus
  • 8sinn half cage with scorpio handle and some add-ons like nato rails
  • 8sinn side handle
  • Atomos Shinobi SDI in an 8sinn cage with sunshade and SmallRig monitor mount
  • Rode Videomic NTG
  • PDmovie wireless focus
  • Sennheiser EW100 G3 receiver
  • SmallRig dove plate and clamps
  • Tilta v-mount plate
  • Bebob micro v-mount battery with either 49Wh (~2.5h) or 98Wh (~5h)

The rig is more on the heavy side but I like to have the added mass.
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Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
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Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
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johngwheeler

  • Posts: 85
  • Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:00 pm
  • Location: Sydney, Australia
  • Real Name: John Wheeler

Re: Battery choice / position / life for BMPCC 4K?

PostTue Jun 15, 2021 12:24 am

To provide some additional data, I did buy some cheap "Bonacell" LP-E6 battery clones from Amazon, labelled with a very optimistic 3200mAh capacity.

The first test didn't even last for 40 minutes recording compared to 50 minutes for the Black Magic standard 2000mAh battery, so clearly the Bonacell batteries are nowhere near 3200mAh capacity....just marketing BS, which I expected. The charger is probably worth the price and I needed one anyway because the camera doesn't include one, so I'm OK with this. I'll keep the batteries for emergencies, but I wouldn't want to rely on these. (I'm also not going to keep them in the camera because I have heard that cheap batteries can often swell and get stuck in the camera).

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