I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

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Fivosvas

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I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostSat Jul 31, 2021 9:19 am

Hello!
I recently bought my second BMPCC4K camera from CVP, and I think this one came faulty.

(I'm being as detailed as possible so you can understand )

This camera came with a factory firmware pre-installed of 7.3, which is one of the latest. Problem with this firmware is that 2 of my lenses Iris control is not working properly . Second issue I have is that the camera shoots Braw at GEN5 by default, which is super frustrating because all of my LUTS are created on GEN4, and this issue makes it impossible to expose correctly while I'm on set.

I have tried converting my luts to GEN5, but its not possible to be accurate since its a whole new color science. According to Blackmagic you can downgrade the camera's firmware to an older version (7.2 or 6.9.5) , and that will solve the issue

Here's my issue :
Camera doesn't want to be Updated NOR Downgraded. Every time I try to follow the procedure using the Camera Setup app, I get a message of '' camera is up to date '' , with no option to do anything.. It's like the camera came locked with a 7.3 and doesn't let me do anything on it. I even tried updating it to 7.4, and I'm still not able to. I have tried several computers ( pc & mac) , changed cables, changed ports, uninstalled/installed drivers and softrwares. Nothing.. camera says ''up to date'' to whatever firmware I try to install.

At this point all I'm thinking is that the camera's firmware might be faulty and its locked to that 7.3 with no option to ever update it or downgrade it. Trust me, I've done everything.

What can you advise on doing at this point? Is there any way I can flash reset the camera completely? or try to force install a firmware? The factory reset option in-camera is nothing but a ''reset camera settings to default'' kind of reset. So its not really a ''factory'' reset
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Fivosvas

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostMon Aug 02, 2021 5:41 pm

Hey ,


I just wanted to give an update on this after spending 3 days non-stop checking .

Turns out the new manufactured cameras come shipped with 7.3 firmware by default. You can't downgrade them to old firmwares due to probably having new hardware installed.
I was able to confirm this, because the only update that my camera is allowed to have is the Beta version of 7.3.2 , which is an update of 7.3 !
Just wanted to let you know about this, since a lot of people were curious. So basically whoever buys a new Pocket 4K from now on, the camera shoots on GEN5 by default ( you can change back to Gen4 in resolve, but not in-camera)
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Milen Mladenov

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostTue Nov 09, 2021 10:49 am

+1
Thank you for the clarification, man! Could somebody from BMD, please comment on this. We have a number of 4Kcameras that are still with Gen4 and this is quite frustrating! Now the new cameras are not matching if you shoot Prores which is a very big problem. BMD?
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Milen Mladenov

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostTue Nov 09, 2021 11:19 am

Just a quick update. A newly bought camera also doesn't give the ability to upgrade to 7.4.1 оr 7.4.2. It stays on 7.3 and says "software up to date". Kind of frustrating...
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Robert Niessner

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostTue Nov 09, 2021 11:45 am

Milen Mladenov wrote:Just a quick update. A newly bought camera also doesn't give the ability to upgrade to 7.4.1 оr 7.4.2. It stays on 7.3 and says "software up to date". Kind of frustrating...


You have to read the release notes of the camera update - there are no new features for this camera model in 7.4.x

Firmware 7.3 is the latest update for that - besides the beta 7.3.2
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Milen Mladenov

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostTue Nov 09, 2021 1:11 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
Milen Mladenov wrote:Just a quick update. A newly bought camera also doesn't give the ability to upgrade to 7.4.1 оr 7.4.2. It stays on 7.3 and says "software up to date". Kind of frustrating...


You have to read the release notes of the camera update - there are no new features for this camera model in 7.4.x

Firmware 7.3 is the latest update for that - besides the beta 7.3.2


True! I have misread Studio Camera 4k for Pocket. Nevertheless, I tried upgrading to the Beta and after that tried to downgrade to 6.9.6, 6.9.4, etc. No luck. In version 6.9 the camera is no longer recognized by the camera setup. I thought that going to older camera setup versions could do the trick but apparently not.
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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostTue Nov 09, 2021 2:15 pm

Milen Mladenov wrote:True! I have misread Studio Camera 4k for Pocket. Nevertheless, I tried upgrading to the Beta and after that tried to downgrade to 6.9.6, 6.9.4, etc. No luck. In version 6.9 the camera is no longer recognized by the camera setup. I thought that going to older camera setup versions could do the trick but apparently not.


It seems that Blackmagic lately had to change a hardware part of the camera (like LCD from different manufacturer) which then makes a firmware downgrade to an older version before the new part impossible. This has happend before - a year after release they had to shift to another display manufacturer and it was impossible to downgrade the firmware on those camera versions.

I just tried it with a PCC4k I bough last week and it can't downgrade from 7.3 either.
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
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Milen Mladenov

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostTue Nov 09, 2021 2:40 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
Milen Mladenov wrote:True! I have misread Studio Camera 4k for Pocket. Nevertheless, I tried upgrading to the Beta and after that tried to downgrade to 6.9.6, 6.9.4, etc. No luck. In version 6.9 the camera is no longer recognized by the camera setup. I thought that going to older camera setup versions could do the trick but apparently not.


It seems that Blackmagic lately had to change a hardware part of the camera (like LCD from different manufacturer) which then makes a firmware downgrade to an older version before the new part impossible. This has happend before - a year after release they had to shift to another display manufacturer and it was impossible to downgrade the firmware on those camera versions.

I just tried it with a PCC4k I bough last week and it can't downgrade from 7.3 either.


Yes, I remember the case with the previous update and the DNG saga. Maybe it's a good option to make the Color Gen selectable or just to make different versions of the new update - one with Gen 4 and one with Gen 5. This way you can choose depending on your project and your needs. Currently, this situation is quite frustrating because I practically have a new camera and can't use it in the pipeline of my current long-term projects.
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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostTue Nov 09, 2021 2:48 pm

Milen Mladenov wrote:Yes, I remember the case with the previous update and the DNG saga. Maybe it's a good option to make the Color Gen selectable or just to make different versions of the new update - one with Gen 4 and one with Gen 5. This way you can choose depending on your project and your needs.


That's what I suggested to Captain Hook when Gen 5 came out, but he said that this is not possible due to firmware/hardware restrictions.

I am in the same boat like you.

Old PCC4k with Gen 4, new PCC4k with Gen 5, UM46k with Gen 3, UMP G1 with Gen 4.
Frustrating.
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
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Milen Mladenov

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostWed Nov 10, 2021 7:02 am

Robert Niessner wrote:
Milen Mladenov wrote:Yes, I remember the case with the previous update and the DNG saga. Maybe it's a good option to make the Color Gen selectable or just to make different versions of the new update - one with Gen 4 and one with Gen 5. This way you can choose depending on your project and your needs.


That's what I suggested to Captain Hook when Gen 5 came out, but he said that this is not possible due to firmware/hardware restrictions.

I am in the same boat like you.

Old PCC4k with Gen 4, new PCC4k with Gen 5, UM46k with Gen 3, UMP G1 with Gen 4.
Frustrating.


Hmm, probably switchable between the two Gens could be very difficult but could somebody tell us why they can't make just an updated version of let's say 6.9.6 with Gen 4. Probably there is a change in the hardware of the new cameras but if it is a display or something like that it should be no problem. Two versions of the update should be quite possible. Please someone from BMD, could you elaborate on this case?
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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostWed Nov 10, 2021 7:46 am

Milen Mladenov wrote:+1
Thank you for the clarification, man! Could somebody from BMD, please comment on this. We have a number of 4Kcameras that are still with Gen4 and this is quite frustrating! Now the new cameras are not matching if you shoot Prores which is a very big problem. BMD?


That's irritating...
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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostWed Nov 10, 2021 4:06 pm

Fivosvas wrote:...the camera shoots on GEN5 by default ( you can change back to Gen4 in resolve, but not in-camera)...which is super frustrating because all of my LUTS are created on GEN4, and this issue makes it impossible to expose correctly while I'm on set.


I’d recommend going the light-meter route, and using Gen 4 in Resolve’s Camera RAW tab for your Gen 4 LUTs when grading.

I only use custom powergrades for grading in Resolve. Although initially I used my own powergrade-based LUTs for in-camera monitoring, for a long time now I have been using only a basic Rec.709 LUT for monitoring and use a light meter for proper exposure. Works great.

Along those lines, perhaps tweaking your Gen 4 LUTs to suit the light-meter exposure would be a good alternative.
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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostWed Nov 10, 2021 5:11 pm

Bromine 18 wrote:
Fivosvas wrote:...the camera shoots on GEN5 by default ( you can change back to Gen4 in resolve, but not in-camera)...which is super frustrating because all of my LUTS are created on GEN4, and this issue makes it impossible to expose correctly while I'm on set.


I’d recommend going the light-meter route, and using Gen 4 in Resolve’s Camera RAW tab for your Gen 4 LUTs when grading.

I only use custom powergrades for grading in Resolve. Although initially I used my own powergrade-based LUTs for in-camera monitoring, for a long time now I have been using only a basic Rec.709 LUT for monitoring and use a light meter for proper exposure. Works great.

Along those lines, perhaps tweaking your Gen 4 LUTs to suit the light-meter exposure would be a good alternative.


If I understood properly the issue is when using multiple Pocket 4k cameras, some models shoot in gen5 and others in gen4, and this cannot be resolved with the Camera RAW settings in post when the material is in ProRes.
This would be pretty annoying when handing over material from multiple cameras in ProRes and having to manually match them in post instead of them being the same from the start because of the differences in gen4 and gen5 color science.
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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostThu Nov 11, 2021 12:55 am

Vess Stoytchev wrote:If I understood properly the issue is when using multiple Pocket 4k cameras, some models shoot in gen5 and others in gen4, and this cannot be resolved with the Camera RAW settings in post when the material is in ProRes.


Not sure whether Fivos was referring to filming in ProRes or BRAW, but yeah ProRes would be tricky.

Light meter and BRAW should be OK for reconciling Gen 4 and Gen 5.

Overall, because it’s a colour-science issue, perhaps it would be suitable to approach tackling it in post instead of in camera. But I can empathize with the frustration.
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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostThu Nov 11, 2021 7:39 am

Vess Stoytchev wrote:If I understood properly the issue is when using multiple Pocket 4k cameras, some models shoot in gen5 and others in gen4, and this cannot be resolved with the Camera RAW settings in post when the material is in ProRes.
It can easily be dealt with in post even if the source files are ProRes — use either a Color Space Transform node to move the image from Gen4 to Gen5 (or the reverse, if you prefer) or use the Color Space Transform node to move both sources to an intermediate working space, or use Resolve Color Management and tag the input color space of each source correctly.
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Milen Mladenov

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostThu Nov 11, 2021 8:37 am

Vess Stoytchev wrote:
Bromine 18 wrote:
Fivosvas wrote:...the camera shoots on GEN5 by default ( you can change back to Gen4 in resolve, but not in-camera)...which is super frustrating because all of my LUTS are created on GEN4, and this issue makes it impossible to expose correctly while I'm on set.


I’d recommend going the light-meter route, and using Gen 4 in Resolve’s Camera RAW tab for your Gen 4 LUTs when grading.

I only use custom powergrades for grading in Resolve. Although initially I used my own powergrade-based LUTs for in-camera monitoring, for a long time now I have been using only a basic Rec.709 LUT for monitoring and use a light meter for proper exposure. Works great.

Along those lines, perhaps tweaking your Gen 4 LUTs to suit the light-meter exposure would be a good alternative.


If I understood properly the issue is when using multiple Pocket 4k cameras, some models shoot in gen5 and others in gen4, and this cannot be resolved with the Camera RAW settings in post when the material is in ProRes.
This would be pretty annoying when handing over material from multiple cameras in ProRes and having to manually match them in post instead of them being the same from the start because of the differences in gen4 and gen5 color science.


Exactly! We also have to add the fact that some of the lenses that worked previously simply don't work with 7.3. The Beta kind of solves part of the issues but this remains a huge problem. That Beta was released in June. After that, we were promised a new update that addresses the issues really soon. This thing never happened so most of us used the workaround to simply downgrade to 6.9.6. But now there is a new issue because BMD failed to disclose that with newer cameras for some reason that is no longer possible. Why? This is clearly a big problem for some of us and BMD just chooses to stay silent on this topic.
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Milen Mladenov

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostSat Nov 13, 2021 10:46 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
Vess Stoytchev wrote:If I understood properly the issue is when using multiple Pocket 4k cameras, some models shoot in gen5 and others in gen4, and this cannot be resolved with the Camera RAW settings in post when the material is in ProRes.
It can easily be dealt with in post even if the source files are ProRes — use either a Color Space Transform node to move the image from Gen4 to Gen5 (or the reverse, if you prefer) or use the Color Space Transform node to move both sources to an intermediate working space, or use Resolve Color Management and tag the input color space of each source correctly.


Well, that's kind of true but what about big Multicam projects that are long-term and have lots and lots of footage, and it's distributed directly to different people each time. For the past two years, they have made their pipeline and their presets how to treat the footage. Now they will just have one or two cameras that are not matching at all and most of them don't use Resolve. Considering this I simply can't use the newly bought cameras for these types of projects at all. If BMD would have the courtesy to disclose this I would search and buy older P4K's instead.
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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostSat Nov 13, 2021 12:46 pm

Even better: offer an alternative firmware 7.3 with Gen 4
Or a firmware where you could reboot into either Gen 4 or Gen 5.
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostSat Nov 13, 2021 9:51 pm

Milen Mladenov wrote:
Jamie LeJeune wrote:
Vess Stoytchev wrote:If I understood properly the issue is when using multiple Pocket 4k cameras, some models shoot in gen5 and others in gen4, and this cannot be resolved with the Camera RAW settings in post when the material is in ProRes.
It can easily be dealt with in post even if the source files are ProRes — use either a Color Space Transform node to move the image from Gen4 to Gen5 (or the reverse, if you prefer) or use the Color Space Transform node to move both sources to an intermediate working space, or use Resolve Color Management and tag the input color space of each source correctly.


Well, that's kind of true but what about big Multicam projects that are long-term and have lots and lots of footage, and it's distributed directly to different people each time. For the past two years, they have made their pipeline and their presets how to treat the footage. Now they will just have one or two cameras that are not matching at all and most of them don't use Resolve. Considering this I simply can't use the newly bought cameras for these types of projects at all. If BMD would have the courtesy to disclose this I would search and buy older P4K's instead.
All the Gen4 and Gen5 BMD cameras have the ability to load custom LUTs internally to apply to the LCD and the SDI/HDMI output. So, even if working on live multi-cam events, that same process in Resolve can be used to create matching LUTs specific to each camera, regardless of whether they are running Gen4 or Gen5 internally.
Though, it's always going to be more efficient in general to update any cameras to Gen5 if possible. Part of BMD's goal with Gen5 was to have a single OETF for all BMD cameras so that LUTs and grades applied to shots from different cameras and ISO deliver more consistent results.
Hook explains that in this post linked here:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=117852&p=649946#p648518
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
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Milen Mladenov

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostSun Nov 14, 2021 9:51 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Even better: offer an alternative firmware 7.3 with Gen 4
Or a firmware where you could reboot into either Gen 4 or Gen 5.


Yes, that's what I have in mind! My suggestion was to have two instances of the new firmware - the first one to be essentially just a "rebranded" or "tweaked" 6.9.6 with the Gen 4 and the existing lens support, the second one with Gen 5 and the "new" features.
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Milen Mladenov

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Re: I’m stuck! I can’t update or downgrade my bmpcc4k

PostFri Mar 11, 2022 9:29 am

Still nothing on that subject or maybe I am missing something?

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