Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

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rick.lang

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 9:57 pm

Ellory, you’re correct; I was referring to matching CinemaDNG to BRAW on the modern cameras.

Jamie, I’ve been using ACEScct on the recent CinemaDNG project and it seemed to be fine. When I have the option, ACES is my preference.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 11:07 pm

rick.lang wrote:Jamie, I’ve been using ACEScct on the recent CinemaDNG project and it seemed to be fine. When I have the option, ACES is my preference.
The current RCM in v17 works equally well as a system of color management. RCM delivers a different "out of the box" look than ACES does, otherwise they are for the most part functionally equivalent. I'm glad to hear that ACEScct is working for you Rick : )
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 12:07 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:It will likely be easiest to work with that camera’s CDNG files by using RCM or ACES in post. That way it will decode directly to the working color space of the project and which BMD color gen that it is won’t matter.


Ok, now that was weird. Used ACEScc on a camcorder just to play with it and the black adjustment and dark adjustment do nothing. All adjustments seem to be from mids up. Seemed very restricted all the way around. Liked a locked color space or something. Regardless, over my head. Maybe a few years down the road.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am

wemrick1 wrote:
Jamie LeJeune wrote:It will likely be easiest to work with that camera’s CDNG files by using RCM or ACES in post. That way it will decode directly to the working color space of the project and which BMD color gen that it is won’t matter.


Ok, now that was weird. Used ACEScc on a camcorder just to play with it and the black adjustment and dark adjustment do nothing. All adjustments seem to be from mids up. Seemed very restricted all the way around. Liked a locked color space or something. Regardless, over my head. Maybe a few years down the road.

In ACES and RCM you have to manually set the source OETF and gamut correctly for the camcorder format (most likely to what BMD calls REC709(scene)). Once you get your URSA Mini, shoot some cDNG and then try them again. Both ACES and RCM will interpret raw formats automatically. If you'd like to learn more about those color managed modes, the Resolve manual covers them well.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 1:05 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
wemrick1 wrote:
Jamie LeJeune wrote:It will likely be easiest to work with that camera’s CDNG files by using RCM or ACES in post. That way it will decode directly to the working color space of the project and which BMD color gen that it is won’t matter.


Ok, now that was weird. Used ACEScc on a camcorder just to play with it and the black adjustment and dark adjustment do nothing. All adjustments seem to be from mids up. Seemed very restricted all the way around. Liked a locked color space or something. Regardless, over my head. Maybe a few years down the road.

In ACES and RCM you have to manually set the source OETF and gamut correctly for the camcorder format (most likely to what BMD calls REC709(scene)). Once you get your URSA Mini, shoot some cDNG and then try them again. Both ACES and RCM will interpret raw formats automatically. If you'd like to learn more about those color managed modes, the Resolve manual covers them well.


Will do! This is like a drink from a fire hose. Learning at an incredible rate.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 2:04 am

wemrick1 wrote: Will do! This is like a drink from a fire hose. Learning at an incredible rate.
If color management is a new concept for you, in addition to reading the relevant section of the Resolve manual I highly recommend watching Alexis Van Hurkman's excellent videos covering Resolve Color Management: https://www.rippletraining.com/products/davinci-resolve/color-management-in-davinci-resolve-17/
The online color management course from Colour Training is also well worth it (when it opens again): https://www.colour.training/join-waiting-list/
And this free video from Baselight color scientist Daniele Siragusano is worth watching through more than once:

Learning about color science and post production color management will pay far more image quality dividends than any camera hardware investment.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 2:21 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
wemrick1 wrote: Will do! This is like a drink from a fire hose. Learning at an incredible rate.
If color management is a new concept for you, in addition to reading the relevant section of the Resolve manual I highly recommend watching Alexis Van Hurkman's excellent videos covering Resolve Color Management: https://www.rippletraining.com/products/davinci-resolve/color-management-in-davinci-resolve-17/
The online color management course from Colour Training is also well worth it (when it opens again): https://www.colour.training/join-waiting-list/
And this free video from Baselight color scientist Daniele Siragusano is worth watching through more than once:

Learning about color science and post production color management will pay far more image quality dividends than any camera hardware investment.


I'm there now. While it's always fun to get a new toy, it's time to practice with it now. Taking this plunge into cinematography is opening up a brand new world for me. So much to wrap ones head around. Took me a bit just to get focal length separated from field of view, lol. Coming from photography and fixed lens video, just dealing with the physics of different sensors is a lot to absorb, not that I have absorbed all of it but I am getting a sense of the scope. Truly appreciate the study guide. Most of what I have found on the net is either extremely shallow or over my head white paper.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 8:12 am

Your fully automatic Tamron with Nikon F-Mount will be a difficult creature to use. At best you can make a small plug with slot in it to fix the internal aperture lever to the sweet spot of the lens which will likely be around f5.6. I did this with a Nikon 12mm-24mm f4 zoom which has no manual aperture.

Your only way to manage focus is to find your most common camera to subject distance and set focus in an automatic mode of a digital camera, then remove the lens and jope that the lens focus remains in that compromise position. Your only way to manage exposure is to use ND filters and shutter speed outdoors and controlled lighting and shutter speed indoors. It is doable but the frustration level is too high.

If your camera is an EF-Mount version, you will need an adaptor to mount Nikons. I am using K&F concept adaptors. EF-Mount to F-Mount adaptors are dumb adaptors with no pass-through of electronic lens information or aperture/autofocus. They are of good quality. The available workspace between the EF-Mount and F-Mount flange distance is only 2.5mm. The release pin lever is by necessity very tiny and tricky to use. It is more convenient to buy several adaptors and Canon rear caps then leave them on the lenses.

When using any adaptor or third-party non-Canon fully manual lens it is a good idea to cut a thin sliver of brown parcel tape and lay it across the lens pins inside the EF-Mount with each overhanging end long enough to stick down to the camera throat. If you cut it to just cover the pins alone, then the lens being mounted may pick up the loose end and roll it through. The tape limits the chances of lens pins shorting out on the tail of a dumb lens and bricking the camera.

My personal preference with the Nikons has been to use f1.4 prime lenses rather than the zooms which seem to be limited to f2.8 and some not being of constant aperture through their zoom range. Being stingy has meant I have bought used older lenses which can be a bit flarey compared to modern lenses and not as sharp. If you go that route be careful about the older models which have an overhang on the aperture ring which may bind on modern F-Mounts.

When storing your camera, try to avoid extremes of temperature. Anecdotally, the older sensor is more sensitive to extremes of temperature in storage. I wonder how valid that yarn is because all surface-mount parts cop a fair roasting albeit for a short period when they are soldered onto the boards?

Good luck with your endeavours.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 1:16 pm

robert Hart wrote:Your fully automatic Tamron with Nikon F-Mount will be a difficult creature to use. At best you can make a small plug with slot in it to fix the internal aperture lever to the sweet spot of the lens which will likely be around f5.6. I did this with a Nikon 12mm-24mm f4 zoom which has no manual aperture.

Your only way to manage focus is to find your most common camera to subject distance and set focus in an automatic mode of a digital camera, then remove the lens and jope that the lens focus remains in that compromise position. Your only way to manage exposure is to use ND filters and shutter speed outdoors and controlled lighting and shutter speed indoors. It is doable but the frustration level is too high.

If your camera is an EF-Mount version, you will need an adaptor to mount Nikons. I am using K&F concept adaptors. EF-Mount to F-Mount adaptors are dumb adaptors with no pass-through of electronic lens information or aperture/autofocus. They are of good quality. The available workspace between the EF-Mount and F-Mount flange distance is only 2.5mm. The release pin lever is by necessity very tiny and tricky to use. It is more convenient to buy several adaptors and Canon rear caps then leave them on the lenses.

When using any adaptor or third-party non-Canon fully manual lens it is a good idea to cut a thin sliver of brown parcel tape and lay it across the lens pins inside the EF-Mount with each overhanging end long enough to stick down to the camera throat. If you cut it to just cover the pins alone, then the lens being mounted may pick up the loose end and roll it through. The tape limits the chances of lens pins shorting out on the tail of a dumb lens and bricking the camera.

My personal preference with the Nikons has been to use f1.4 prime lenses rather than the zooms which seem to be limited to f2.8 and some not being of constant aperture through their zoom range. Being stingy has meant I have bought used older lenses which can be a bit flarey compared to modern lenses and not as sharp. If you go that route be careful about the older models which have an overhang on the aperture ring which may bind on modern F-Mounts.

When storing your camera, try to avoid extremes of temperature. Anecdotally, the older sensor is more sensitive to extremes of temperature in storage. I wonder how valid that yarn is because all surface-mount parts cop a fair roasting albeit for a short period when they are soldered onto the boards?

Good luck with your endeavours.


Wow!! Wonderful stuff!! You probably just saved me countless instances of "OooPs" and a wad of money. Trying to wade through the jungle of adapters is a nightmare for me. Too many variables, too many "ya-but"s. I really love those Tamrons on the D850 and the Z6 but I don't need a headache from trying to adapt them elsewhere.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 14, 2022 2:00 am

Just rambling here but (ya the all encompassing but) I've been poking around at used stuff and found a shoulder mount without handle at an amazing price. Also found a rosette extension arm at a great price that I'm going to try hanging an ultrabright off of for the shoulder mount. Gonna be quite the rig right from the get go. The camera and first lens shipped today so I am getting antsy. A box of pieces/parts landed today and more coming Saturday. I will be home most of Saturday, all of Sunday and all of Monday. Sunday is predicted to be chilly but partly cloudy so I'm hoping to get out. Fire up the heated vest and see what the new family member can do! I'm 68 and feel like a five year old getting a new bike.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 10:23 pm

Update:

Baby Ursa came today. Got it all assembled and tested it out a little. Even with all the posting here and reading, and watching any video I could get ahold of there were still a few surprises.

4K DCI is raw only.
4k/Ultra HD is Prores only.

I had seen reviews with an old menu system as well as the same menu system as the BMPCC 4k. This one has the newer menu system.

First filming in raw totally freaked me out. There sits a folder with 400+ dng raw still shots. Took some searching and time to figure out how to get Resolve to recognize what was going on and make a video clip out of all that.

First tests have made me very happy. Great highlight recovery, Plenty of light inside using a lantern diffuser at 400ISO to get some excellent exposure. Sweet skin tones and color all the way around for me. Shot a little outside and standing in the shade the screen was plenty bright.

Saw a ton of reviews bashing the lack of buttons but for my purposes I'm quite satisfied. I can leave the histogram, peaking, and zebra on and toggle false colors with little problem.

Obviously more testing to do over time but I think this camera and I are going to get along just fine.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 10:36 pm

wemrick1 wrote:Baby Ursa came today.

:lol: My first time ever to hear someone call the URSA Mini a baby. :lol:


wemrick1 wrote:4K DCI is raw only.
4k/Ultra HD is Prores only.

I had seen reviews with an old menu system as well as the same menu system as the BMPCC 4k. This one has the newer menu system.

First filming in raw totally freaked me out. There sits a folder with 400+ dng raw still shots. Took some searching and time to figure out how to get Resolve to recognize what was going on and make a video clip out of all that.

First tests have made me very happy. Great highlight recovery, Plenty of light inside using a lantern diffuser at 400ISO to get some excellent exposure. Sweet skin tones and color all the way around for me. Shot a little outside and standing in the shade the screen was plenty bright.

Saw a ton of reviews bashing the lack of buttons but for my purposes I'm quite satisfied. I can leave the histogram, peaking, and zebra on and toggle false colors with little problem.

Did you get the URSA Mini 4K, the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K, or the URSA Mino Pro 4.6K G1 with early firmware? Sound like it’s one of those that didn’t came with BRAW but CDNG raw.

Cinema DNG generate one raw image file for every frame inside a folder.

wemrick1 wrote:Obviously more testing to do over time but I think this camera and I are going to get along just fine.

Well, congrats and sounds like you are having fun with it.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 11:19 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
wemrick1 wrote:Baby Ursa came today.

:lol: My first time ever to hear someone call the URSA Mini a baby. :lol:


wemrick1 wrote:4K DCI is raw only.
4k/Ultra HD is Prores only.

I had seen reviews with an old menu system as well as the same menu system as the BMPCC 4k. This one has the newer menu system.

First filming in raw totally freaked me out. There sits a folder with 400+ dng raw still shots. Took some searching and time to figure out how to get Resolve to recognize what was going on and make a video clip out of all that.

First tests have made me very happy. Great highlight recovery, Plenty of light inside using a lantern diffuser at 400ISO to get some excellent exposure. Sweet skin tones and color all the way around for me. Shot a little outside and standing in the shade the screen was plenty bright.

Saw a ton of reviews bashing the lack of buttons but for my purposes I'm quite satisfied. I can leave the histogram, peaking, and zebra on and toggle false colors with little problem.

Did you get the URSA Mini 4K, the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K, or the URSA Mino Pro 4.6K G1 with early firmware? Sound like it’s one of those that didn’t came with BRAW but CDNG raw.

Cinema DNG generate one raw image file for every frame inside a folder.

wemrick1 wrote:Obviously more testing to do over time but I think this camera and I are going to get along just fine.

Well, congrats and sounds like you are having fun with it.


Thank you!

You are spot on. It's the Ursa Mini 4K and yup, it produces one still per frame. When I first saw that in the specs I thought that looks like a still format...naw, can't be. Yup it is.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 2:57 pm

As you know now, Resolve considers each folder with the thousands of ‘still DNG’ images as a clip. It’s really transparent to you. Those individual stills let you easily extract one to an external photo editor if you want to do further work on it for a poster or other publicity. The external photo editor needs to be aware and support DNG images such as ON1 which I’ve used for that purpose. You just identify your camera profile in the program; in your case you would use the BMPC4K or Blackmagic Production 4K profile.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 6:04 pm

rick.lang wrote:As you know now, Resolve considers each folder with the thousands of ‘still DNG’ images as a clip. It’s really transparent to you. Those individual stills let you easily extract one to an external photo editor if you want to do further work on it for a poster or other publicity. The external photo editor needs to be aware and support DNG images such as ON1 which I’ve used for that purpose. You just identify your camera profile in the program; in your case you would use the BMPC4K or Blackmagic Production 4K profile.


I wondered about that. I tried it once and Photoshop would not recognize the file. After reading this I got to thinking. I imported one dng from the mini into Reslove and rendered it as a tiff. Made quite a mess out of my desktop with a kabillion tiffs but the tiffs would open in photoshop.

Thanks for the tip!!!!

I just went back into Resolve and made the clip as short as it could and only got 2 Tiffs out. That's manageable!
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 11:10 pm

rick.lang wrote:As you know now, Resolve considers each folder with the thousands of ‘still DNG’ images as a clip. It’s really transparent to you. Those individual stills let you easily extract one to an external photo editor if you want to do further work on it for a poster or other publicity. The external photo editor needs to be aware and support DNG images such as ON1 which I’ve used for that purpose. You just identify your camera profile in the program; in your case you would use the BMPC4K or Blackmagic Production 4K profile.



I hope I'm not annoying or boring you with this, but this is HOT imho. I can import one dng and set the clip to one frame. Work it over in the color tab as a raw file then export to tiff. This actually makes this thing a fairly viable still camera, lol. Push the shutter speed to say 200 and get quite a nice shot. Not advocating using the camera as a still camera, but it's possible. Puts out a pretty good sized image as well.
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rick.lang

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Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostTue Jan 18, 2022 12:31 am

I haven’t used Photoshop since they went to the subscription model. I would have thoughts they’d have DNG support for Blackmagic cameras like ON1 and Capture One.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostTue Jan 18, 2022 12:55 am

rick.lang wrote:I haven’t used Photoshop since they went to the subscription model. I would have thoughts they’d have DNG support for Blackmagic cameras like ON1 and Capture One.



One would think. It might handle uncompressed raw, I'm not sure but it can't deal with the compressed raw.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostTue Jan 18, 2022 1:28 am

Nothing but DR deals with the compressed version.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostTue Jan 18, 2022 1:34 am

Uli Plank wrote:Nothing but DR deals with the compressed version.
:idea:
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rick.lang

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 19, 2022 12:56 am

That’s correct. Apologies if I didn’t mention I’m still shooting uncompressed CinemaDNG.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 19, 2022 1:46 am

rick.lang wrote:That’s correct. Apologies if I didn’t mention I’m still shooting uncompressed CinemaDNG.


All good! Just happy to have learned this. Resolve does such a wonderful job of color grading that I rather enjoy being able to use it to process a photo.

Really enjoying this camera. Footage is blending in nicely with that from the BMPCC 4k. Really beautiful images.
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