Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

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wemrick1

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Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 5:19 am

I have two BMPCC 4k cameras. One rigged for tripod and one rigged for gimbal/handheld. Obviously I have two perspectives covered in a shoot. Been looking over the URSA and URSA mini line for sometime now and per information I've found I'm not convinced per spending the extra money.

To further define the criteria of the decision:

1. I shoot in 3840x2160. I'm not interested in greater resolutions. Please accept this face value.
2. I shoot in a lot of existing or relatively low light as well as daylight.
3. I prefer shooting in fully manual mode, e.g. shutter, aperture, focus, ISO/gain.
4. I have no need for broadcast capabilities.
5. I don't consider what I do as "run and gun". Retakes are always possible. Pre-runs are common.

I have noted two immediate benefits, built in nd filters and two extra stops of dynamic range. Image quality is everything. I film in b-raw. I don't work in a video factory so prores is not important.

What am I missing? For an additional 4G I would think there are more benefits but having said that, maybe not for me.

Thoughts?
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 5:40 am

The Ursa 4.6K does not perform as well as the Pocket cameras in low light. I haven't tried the 12K or Broadcast G2.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 5:50 am

Have you considered the most recent Broadcast camera?
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 6:07 am

Jack Fairley wrote:The Ursa 4.6K does not perform as well as the Pocket cameras in low light. I haven't tried the 12K or Broadcast G2.


Wow! Now that's the kind of simple down to the point info I need. This is very helpful as I am looking at used "older" models as well as newer ones. Thank you!
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 6:09 am

rick.lang wrote:Have you considered the most recent Broadcast camera?


Honestly don't know which one you are referring to. There are Ursa's, Ursa mini's, Mini's, Itsy bittisies. Which one is the latest? If you are referring to the Ursa G2 Broadcast, the only full review I've watched indicated that the image quality was on par with the BMPCC 4k. No idea how trustworthy that review was. Reviewer claimed no difference in low light. It does a lot of things I wouldn't use like the focus and zoom on demand? Additional control units.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 2:36 pm

I had both pocket 4K, 6k and Ursa Mini Pro G1. For your needing keep pocket and eventually add another pocket.
Ursa give you the beat with tons of light, in low light you have cleaner picture from pockets.


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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 2:51 pm

Hi,

I'm not sure you've really explained what your end goal is. You've only talked about what you technically feel you need.

What are you actually shooting? Where is this work going to end up being seen? What's it for? :-)

You said image quality is everything, but that's also a very open to interpretation kind of statement as well.

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 3:15 pm

I was referring to the URSA Broadcast G2. It meets your 4K UHD requirement and can shoot up to 6K with EF or PL Mount. It has a Dual ISO sensor with ‘native’ ISO 400 and 3200. It has built-in ND filters. If you’re looking for an economical URSA that is a step-up from the BMPCC4K, it may be a better choice for you.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 3:21 pm

Based on what you've written so far the BMPCC 6k Pro might actually be a better choice: it has the built-in ND filters and would be simpler since it displays ISO instead of gain (the Ursa Broadcast G2 displays gain rather than ISO and while that's not hard to figure out it's a difference you may not want to deal with in the heat of the moment). My understanding, which may or may not be correct, is that the Ursa Broadcast G2 uses the BMPCC 6K sensor so the main benefit would be the form factor and the built-in ND filters.
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rick.lang

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 3:35 pm

All true, Brad. With the OP considering an URSA, I’m assuming the OP values all the ease of use features (buttons) on the URSA Broadcast G2. Certainly you’ll achieve the goal of a step-up from the BMPCC4K with the BMPCC6K Pro. I do find the price-point and capabilities of the URSA Broadcast G2 enticing with the strongest appeal being its Dual ISO range sensor.

If I was mounting my Fujinon Cine Zoom on the Broadcast G2 (or my PL lenses) I may not keep my URSA Mini 4.6K since the Colour Science does not match, but I would keep the BMPCC4K as a B camera.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 3:55 pm

I've used the original pocket, Big URSA, 4K Pocket, 4.6K URSA Mini Pro and the URSA Mini Pro 12K... as well as some miscellaneous other cameras (various sensor types.) If you want image quality go with the 12K. I like Rick's suggestion of the latest Broadcast camera. Most of all I like John's suggestion of understanding your end goal. Besides the sensor and camera, image quality is dependent on many other things... like lighting, exposure, movement, lens, grading/processing... so a great image quality has the most chance to be achieved from expertise with the tools. Then experience with that expertise should lead to one's vision being applied. And then... how to present? Coming from platinum/palladium printmaking I find it challenging to get a great presentation medium... well maybe the story can in a way camouflage the presentation... but I am yet to be that great of story teller. (I think of those classic horror films were low resolution and darkness helped greatly with the feeling... so much better than contemporary stuff.)
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 8:53 pm

Thank you all so very much for the responses!!!! I wish this site had the option of placing a like to acknowledge each post. I've done weddings, funerals, educational videos (my wife and I did one a day for maybe 9mo while she was teaching remotely. She's a high school special educator, documentaries (I guess) on the workings of homesteading, promotional videos of bands, Promotional videos of festivals, and etcetera. My first draw is really quite silly. The larger cameras look like really fun toys, lol. What I would be looking for in performance would be better low light captures (less noise, grain, better at retaining color, a greater dynamic range, and maybe greater color latitude? Not sure on that one. Hard to believe one can perceive more colors than the 4K produces. I would expect to have more latitude in color grading/developing in post. Color matching with the 4k would be very important. I'm not good at color matching and find it very frustrating. I find the ursa line interesting per price and I have enough accessories e.g. monitors, batteries, focus follow, etc. to achieve a working rig with little extra cost. I like to set multiple cameras on a project, one or two on tripods and a third on a gimbal or handheld to offer different perspectives for longer contagious segments of activity.

Folks that I give these to will present with anything from pc's to big screen tv's.

I hope this helps further define my goals and or aspirations.

One might ask why move to a cine camera for such simple projects. I do have a couple of pro Panasonic camcorders but people do see the difference. Since I have moved to the 4K I have received numerous complements on the improved image.
Last edited by wemrick1 on Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 9:03 pm

The BMPCC4K, BMPCC6K Pro, and UMBroadcastG2 all support BRAW and Gen 5 Colour Science so matching shouldn’t be too challenging for your projects. The BMPCC4K does use a different sensor than the others so there are possibly going to be some differences. Although I don’t have a BroadcastG2 or a BMPCC6K to compare to my BMPCC4K, I think there are comments from people who have the BMPCC6K/Pro that they prefer its colour to the BMPCC4K.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSat Jan 08, 2022 12:18 am

To some degree you can compensate the low-light capability of the 12K by denoising in full resolution before scaling down. Obviously, this needs a very capable computer.

But if low-light is your primary concern, I'd consider a Sony A7S III. Nothing beats it in the dark.
OTOH, I don't like Sony's colour science as much as I like BM's. Adding enough light is the better solution wherever you can and the colours from the 12K are gorgeous.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSat Jan 08, 2022 2:27 pm

rick.lang wrote:The BMPCC4K, BMPCC6K Pro, and UMBroadcastG2 all support BRAW and Gen 5 Colour Science so matching shouldn’t be too challenging for your projects.

It is very unfortunate that the UMP 4.6K G2 does not have Gen 5 color science in camera to date. If there is even one very last firmware update for the UMP G2, Blackmagic should make it an effort to have Gen 5 color for it.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSat Jan 08, 2022 3:39 pm

Uli Plank wrote:To some degree you can compensate the low-light capability of the 12K by denoising in full resolution before scaling down. Obviously, this needs a very capable computer.

But if low-light is your primary concern, I'd consider a Sony A7S III. Nothing beats it in the dark.
OTOH, I don't like Sony's colour science as much as I like BM's. Adding enough light is the better solution wherever you can and the colours from the 12K are gorgeous.


Although I don't feel as if I need 12K that unit does hit me as the flagship and definitely hits the mark in every other category. Six G is a little steep for what I do but it beats a new boat, new Harley, and many other hobbies. I think my computer could handle the denoise in either Resolve or Premiere but in Topez it would be like putting meat in the fridge to marinate for a week. Your assertion that the colors are gorgeous has a lot of allure. I did find a used Sony PXW-FS7 4K XDCAM that draws my interest. I really like the idea of a shoulder rig form factor. I could go that route. I noticed that the show Alaska, the last frontier uses cams for their A shots and Cine for their B shot interview segments which makes a lot of sense to me and presents a very appropriate visual. I do find low light especially intriguing being able to get that intimate atmosphere rather than throwing a cold rag on it by introducing a lot of studio lighting. Having said that I do bounce some studio light around often even with the 4k.

Sorry for being so long winded. It helps me to think in type if that makes any sense.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSat Jan 08, 2022 8:44 pm

wemrick1 wrote:Although I don't feel as if I need 12K that unit does hit me as the flagship and definitely hits the mark in every other category. Six G is a little steep for what I do but it beats a new boat, new Harley, and many other hobbies. I think my computer could handle the denoise in either Resolve or Premiere but in Topez it would be like putting meat in the fridge to marinate for a week.


You might be pleasantly surprised. When I reviewed the 12K (https://www.redsharknews.com/ursa-mini-pro-12k-rakesh-malik-gives-us-his-verdict-from-a-production-viewpoint) I did my post production testing on comparatively underpowered M1 Mini. Black Magic has pulled some miracles as far as optimization goes here.

'Your assertion that the colors are gorgeous has a lot of allure. I did find a used Sony PXW-FS7 4K XDCAM that draws my interest.


The 12K's color rendition really is gorgeous.

I do find low light especially intriguing being able to get that intimate atmosphere rather than throwing a cold rag on it by introducing a lot of studio lighting.


That's a common misconception. The trick isn't to shoot without light, it's to learn how to light. The best studio lighting doesn't look like studio lighting... often you'll see shots that look like they weren't lit, but it's because they ARE lit... with a lot of skill and finesse in order to achieve that intimate look. Otherwise you end up with mud.

The secret isn't to stop using lighting because you have a camera that can shoot in the dark. The secret is to stretch your lighting farther. When I went from an AJA CIon (natively 200 ISO) to a Red Epic-W (natively 800 ISO), I could soft light a room with a single 1K through a five meter silk instead of needing a 2K to get the same exposure on camera.

The Pocket line is very nice, and a killer bargain, but I find the UMP line to be more user friendly even though they're larger.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSat Jan 08, 2022 10:09 pm

wemrick1 wrote: I did find a used Sony PXW-FS7 4K XDCAM that draws my interest.
The Sony FS7 often is imagined to deliver similar quality to the Sony F5 or Sony F55. But it really doesn't.
I've dealt with hundreds of hours of FS7 footage. If you care at all about color, especially skin tones, skip that camera, especially if you find yourself shooting under mixed or spiky spectrum lighting. The color quality from an UMP G2 or UMP12K is far better than you'll get from an FS7. Even the 4K Pocket is better.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSat Jan 08, 2022 11:16 pm

That's a common misconception. The trick isn't to shoot without light, it's to learn how to light. The best studio lighting doesn't look like studio lighting...

This I'll take your word for. Lighting had always been difficult for me. The 12K is sounding better all the time.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSat Jan 08, 2022 11:21 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
wemrick1 wrote: I did find a used Sony PXW-FS7 4K XDCAM that draws my interest.
The Sony FS7 often is imagined to deliver similar quality to the Sony F5 or Sony F55. But it really doesn't.
I've dealt with hundreds of hours of FS7 footage. If you care at all about color, especially skin tones, skip that camera, especially if you find yourself shooting under mixed or spiky spectrum lighting. The color quality from an UMP G2 or UMP12K is far better than you'll get from an FS7. Even the 4K Pocket is better.


Very helpful!! I almost didn't make mention of the Sony as obviously this is a BM forum. Real world experience like this is gold. Like with every other product on the planet, reviewers jump in at the release and then you hear no more on the product. Scratch the Sony. I'm glad I know!
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSat Jan 08, 2022 11:51 pm

You can mention any camera you consider. This is not a Red forum ;-)

Yes, Topaz is slow as molasses. But what do you need it for with video? The NR in Resolve isn't bad at all and if you need more, NeatVideo is better and faster than Topaz.
That said, I second all that was written about light. No electronic camera can record true black (unexposed film can). You light with the desired contrast ratio and subtly squeeze the shadows down in post.
And then, the low-light wonders by Sony are not only good, large sensors. They do a lot of filtering in the camera and kill some detail that way.
BTW, if you want an UMP to be used on the shoulder, you'll need the EVF. It's worth it.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSun Jan 09, 2022 12:48 am

Uli Plank wrote:You can mention any camera you consider. This is not a Red forum ;-)

Yes, Topaz is slow as molasses. But what do you need it for with video? The NR in Resolve isn't bad at all and if you need more, NeatVideo is better and faster than Topaz.
That said, I second all that was written about light. No electronic camera can record true black (unexposed film can). You light with the desired contrast ratio and subtly squeeze the shadows down in post.
And then, the low-light wonders by Sony are not only good, large sensors. They do a lot of filtering in the camera and kill some detail that way.
BTW, if you want an UMP to be used on the shoulder, you'll need the EVF. It's worth it.


I've been looking at the evf also and agree with you. As apposed to my Panasonic UX180 the BM would sit on the shoulder and have an offset EVF. That looks very comfortable. Screens in daylight are just a pain. Being part of this thread has given me a lot of information and forced me to look at this purchase from many perspectives. It really is a rough decision. I would love to fly over to NY and play around in B&H for awhile to get some hands on with some of these units. There's a lot to be said about the G2 broadcast as well. The unit with evf would come under the 6k. Comes with shoulder mount. No need for an ultrabright in the sun.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSun Jan 09, 2022 1:43 am

Nothing beats hands-on for such a decision, and not for 15 minutes, but at least a (well-planned) day. No chances of rental where you live? It would be money well spent.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSun Jan 09, 2022 1:48 am

wemrick1 wrote: There's a lot to be said about the G2 broadcast as well. The unit with evf would come under the 6k. Comes with shoulder mount. No need for an ultrabright in the sun.
The unique features of the G2 Broadcast are the long-GOP broadcast codec, the streaming, and the B4 lens compatibility. If you're not specifically getting it for all those features, and you intend to shoot with s35 lenses, I'd go for UMP G2 or a UMP 12K before getting the G2 Broadcast. If it's using the same 6K sensor setup as the 6K Pocket (which appears to be the case) the scan rate at s35 6K is really going to be too slow for handheld shooting. If you plan to use it with broadcast lenses, that's a crop so the scan rate is faster and fine for handheld.

One great feature of the UMP 12K is that the 6K s16 crop mode scan speed is excellent, if you're looking to use great s16 lenses like the Canon 8 - 64, or get more range out of a s35 zoom by switching from full sensor to crop mode.

I agree with Uli that it would be best to rent each option for a weekend and test which works for your needs.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSun Jan 09, 2022 2:57 am

I've got a project coming up and I'll do my best to rent at least one. Not sure what rental options I have in the area but I can find out for sure.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSun Jan 09, 2022 3:06 am

If you are in the US, did you try Sharegrid?
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostSun Jan 09, 2022 3:26 am

Uli Plank wrote:If you are in the US, did you try Sharegrid?


I'll try them. Never rented before. All new ground for me.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 4:42 am

This thread and others about resolution etc. has really spurred me to think and rethink my approach to looking for a new camera. I've also been watching TV thinking more about what do I consider acceptable image and what are these productions using. Although I appreciate the capabilities of the newer URSA cameras, I am beginning to believe those capabilities are beyond my needs and that for me it would be wasteful. Thinking also about low light vs lighting a scene, I am thinking my time better spent learning lighting. I also did a number of tests here in the house and found that even at 800 ISO, 1/50 shutter, and F2, I can easily get good exposure without creating glaring light. I've turned my interest to a used URSA V1 that I can get for under 1,400. Obviously I'll keep researching that and think more about it but I'm not going to work anytime soon for MGM. The last video I delivered to some friends was of their wedding and I did that with a Panasonic UX180 and a UX90 and they were and remain thrilled.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 7:46 am

wemrick1 wrote:This thread and others about resolution etc. has really spurred me to think and rethink my approach to looking for a new camera. I've also been watching TV thinking more about what do I consider acceptable image and what are these productions using. Although I appreciate the capabilities of the newer URSA cameras, I am beginning to believe those capabilities are beyond my needs and that for me it would be wasteful. Thinking also about low light vs lighting a scene, I am thinking my time better spent learning lighting. I also did a number of tests here in the house and found that even at 800 ISO, 1/50 shutter, and F2, I can easily get good exposure without creating glaring light. I've turned my interest to a used URSA V1 that I can get for under 1,400. Obviously I'll keep researching that and think more about it but I'm not going to work anytime soon for MGM. The last video I delivered to some friends was of their wedding and I did that with a Panasonic UX180 and a UX90 and they were and remain thrilled.

Ah, good old URSA V1. I loved that beast of a camera and have many memories of it, a few good shorts made with it. It has its charisma with CDNG. It’s definitely not a low light camera but if your scene is lit properly, the image it can produce is awesome. Be aware of FPN and other noises and lighting is your savior. I think you are in the right track spending your time learning how to light. If you got that handled, the camera, for the most part, is irrelevant but you should always think and consider about the IQ and the color science that the camera provides and make your decision there.

I think the URSA line has come a long ways and is pretty good. However, I think there should be a camera that is between the pocket line and the URSA line… one that has a lot of rigging flexibility that it demands a box form factor. There’s many discussions about a box form factor camera and I hope to see one coming from BMD someday.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 5:20 pm

Ok, so I made my purchase! You might think I'm bat stuff crazy but you will have to acknowledge that I listen. I've ordered two GVM spots with soft boxes. I was only going to buy the soft boxes but they had a BOGO special where lights and boxes where less cost.

Thank you all again for all the time taken to help me on my journey. I'm sure I'll be asking more questions soon.

Onward and upward!!!
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 7:02 pm

If good low light performance is required, the big (non-Mini) Ursa is a... "brave" purchase. :)
On top of that there's no ND:s and no BRAW. Pretty cool camera in a studio, but it needs a tripod that is much more expensive than the camera.
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wemrick1

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 12:38 am

roger.magnusson wrote:If good low light performance is required, the big (non-Mini) Ursa is a... "brave" purchase. :)
On top of that there's no ND:s and no BRAW. Pretty cool camera in a studio, but it needs a tripod that is much more expensive than the camera.


Yup, looks like a fun camera. I have a couple of Davis and Sanford and one Benros that will keep it from falling on the floor. I'm just not sure what I'll need to mount it as the 15mm rod mounts hang down quite a bit.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 4:07 am

wemrick1 wrote:
roger.magnusson wrote:If good low light performance is required, the big (non-Mini) Ursa is a... "brave" purchase. :)
On top of that there's no ND:s and no BRAW. Pretty cool camera in a studio, but it needs a tripod that is much more expensive than the camera.


Yup, looks like a fun camera. I have a couple of Davis and Sanford and one Benros that will keep it from falling on the floor. I'm just not sure what I'll need to mount it as the 15mm rod mounts hang down quite a bit.

You’ll need the D&S 3-25 Pro Elite tripod. The 3-15 Elite or ProVista will not carry the beast. Trust me, I have a couple of them failed on me while carrying the beast. That is true with the Benro. If you get the Benro, make sure it’s the one with a 100mm bowl. I also recommend getting the VCT-14 mount plate. There are expensive ones like the Sony and cheap ones. Smallrig and Tilta worked well for me. There’s a cheaper one called E-Image and it works okay.

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wemrick1

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 11:33 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
wemrick1 wrote:
roger.magnusson wrote:If good low light performance is required, the big (non-Mini) Ursa is a... "brave" purchase. :)
On top of that there's no ND:s and no BRAW. Pretty cool camera in a studio, but it needs a tripod that is much more expensive than the camera.


Weird how it turned out. After reading your post I sat and thought some more. In the mean time the Ursa I was looking at sold. Then I found an Ursa mini at MPB at an insanely low price and I snagged it. Will be here in about a week. I think all and all it was fortuitous. I believe I will be happier with the mini.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 11:46 pm

4K or 4.6K? The 4K sensor is the same as in the big Ursa.
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wemrick1

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 11:58 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:4K or 4.6K? The 4K sensor is the same as in the big Ursa.


It's the 4k. Been doing a lot of study on it and I think I will enjoy using it a lot. Picked up a few things to go with it. Lens of course, Rokinon 85 which I like working with being just slightly more tele than a 50, A top handle, a side handle (that was not provided with the camera), UV filter, variable ND filter, V batt mount and an SDI to HDMI converter just in case I can't see the screen in daylight. I'm pretty geeked right now. Maybe end of next week I can start putting it through some paces. Also picked up a GVM spot with a great big bubble diffuser. Coupled with a few other lights I have I am excited about that too.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 12:23 am

If using a variable-ND you’ll need an IR cut filter with it (the UV filter is useless beyond being lens protection). Hoya’s IR filter works well with BMD sensors.
Enjoy the new camera : )
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 12:58 am

The Rokinon will be pretty long on that sensor, you'll need to care for a sturdy tripod. Just saying.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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wemrick1

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 1:51 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:If using a variable-ND you’ll need an IR cut filter with it (the UV filter is useless beyond being lens protection). Hoya’s IR filter works well with BMD sensors.
Enjoy the new camera : )


will do and thank you for helping me work through this.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 1:55 am

Uli Plank wrote:The Rokinon will be pretty long on that sensor, you'll need to care for a sturdy tripod. Just saying.


Appreciate that. Works well on the BMPCC 4k at an effective 170. I'll know soon!

My perception is that this lens will provide about a 1.5 crop ratio and end up to be a full frame eq of about 125~130. That is an excellent portrait lens. Outside it would give me a little bit of reach. I'm looking at next purchase to be a 24 full frame.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 6:48 am

wemrick1 wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:The Rokinon will be pretty long on that sensor, you'll need to care for a sturdy tripod. Just saying.


Appreciate that. Works well on the BMPCC 4k at an effective 170. I'll know soon!

My perception is that this lens will provide about a 1.5 crop ratio and end up to be a full frame eq of about 125~130. That is an excellent portrait lens. Outside it would give me a little bit of reach. I'm looking at next purchase to be a 24 full frame.

I have a set of Rokis. If you like soft IQ, the Rokis are good and I like using them more for drama genre, especially with aging actors. Other than drama, they’re just soft. Kind of like shooting with a promist filter on it. If you like a sharp overall lens with this camera, I suggest the Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 ART lens.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 9:22 am

It has been a while since the Ursa Mini 4K arrived on the scene. The original 4K sensor has a nice look of its own. You will have to learn to live within your means related to dynamic range and performance in low light.

Given the passing of time, the focal reducer kits which were being made for the Ursa Mini 4K and Ursa Mini 4.6K may have been discontinued but as the Ursa Mini form has continued into the 12K, they may still be available.

So far as I know, I made the first one for an original "big" Ursa using the optical cell out of a Metabones Speedbooster "Ultra" 0.71x.

One manufacturer/vendor that I know of operated under the product name Lucadapter. It appears he is still operating. - https://www.lucadapterstore.com/


The focal reducer confers some benefits :-


It fits within the throat of the camera behind the lens and does not introduce any added distractions when setting up.

It increases the field of view that the sensor sees for a given lens focal length.

It passes more light to the sensor.

In practical terms, the Ursa 4k camera then behaves as if it is an Ursa 4.6k camera. You will have to use external ND filters and with added IR filters or IRND filters for best performance from your lenses.


The focal reducer has some downsides :-


It adds more glass between the lens and sensor which potentially adds flare.

Some lenses with very precise infinity focus end-stops in the mechanism may not achieve infinity focus. I understand that the manufacturer may have dealt with that issue since it emerged.

Some lenses may no longer be usable due to deep penetration in the camera throat. Any of the lenses approved for the Metabones Speedbooster 0.71 "Ultra" optical cell should be fine.

The image from some wide-angle lenses may go soft in corners.

The lay of the optics in the focal reducer may cause a soft side in image. This was an issue with some Metabones Speedboosters because of the locking system which was a small screw impinging upon the adjustable optical cell on a radial axis. I think the Lucadaptors may use a different retention method.

This was fixable by simply removing the screw or backing it off, adjusting the cell to correct focus. Then place the Speedbooster facing directly downwards for gravity to centralise the optical cell in its adjustment threads.

Then apply a few small dabs of water-cleanable white bathroom sealer across the thread junction and allow it to set before disturbing the Speedbooster. Do NOT use a silicon sealer as this stuff is impossible to shift if it gets on coated optics. Do NOT use locktite. The optical cell is completely round with no means of securing any lens tool to it.

This linked clip is not the best and was edited as 1920x1080. In the 14mm Sigma for Nikon image at the tail end of the clip, you will observe a sharpness falloff in the upper left corner. there will be better demonstrations on youtube if you search for them.



This is most likely too much information but I get carried away at times. Ignore at will.
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wemrick1

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 12:36 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
wemrick1 wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:The Rokinon will be pretty long on that sensor, you'll need to care for a sturdy tripod. Just saying.


Appreciate that. Works well on the BMPCC 4k at an effective 170. I'll know soon!

My perception is that this lens will provide about a 1.5 crop ratio and end up to be a full frame eq of about 125~130. That is an excellent portrait lens. Outside it would give me a little bit of reach. I'm looking at next purchase to be a 24 full frame.

I have a set of Rokis. If you like soft IQ, the Rokis are good and I like using them more for drama genre, especially with aging actors. Other than drama, they’re just soft. Kind of like shooting with a promist filter on it. If you like a sharp overall lens with this camera, I suggest the Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 ART lens.


I noticed that with the Rokis I have. I've compartmentalized that as "a look" that I enjoy for itself. All part of making this hobby interesting.
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wemrick1

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 12:43 pm

robert Hart wrote:It has been a while since the Ursa Mini 4K arrived on the scene. The original 4K sensor has a nice look of its own. You will have to learn to live within your means related to dynamic range and performance in low light.

Given the passing of time, the focal reducer kits which were being made for the Ursa Mini 4K and Ursa Mini 4.6K may have been discontinued but as the Ursa Mini form has continued into the 12K, they may still be available.

So far as I know, I made the first one for an original "big" Ursa using the optical cell out of a Metabones Speedbooster "Ultra" 0.71x.

One manufacturer/vendor that I know of operated under the product name Lucadapter. It appears he is still operating. - https://www.lucadapterstore.com/

I appreciate you taking the time to relay all of that. I have a lot of studying to do to fully understand all of the physics behind image creation and every hint helps for sure. I have some nice Nikon glass and have been looking at adapters/speed boosters. Haven't found anything that looks real promising. The glass is Tamron and has no physical connection for the aperture or aperture ring.

The focal reducer confers some benefits :-


It fits within the throat of the camera behind the lens and does not introduce any added distractions when setting up.

It increases the field of view that the sensor sees for a given lens focal length.

It passes more light to the sensor.

In practical terms, the Ursa 4k camera then behaves as if it is an Ursa 4.6k camera. You will have to use external ND filters and with added IR filters or IRND filters for best performance from your lenses.


The focal reducer has some downsides :-


It adds more glass between the lens and sensor which potentially adds flare.

Some lenses with very precise infinity focus end-stops in the mechanism may not achieve infinity focus. I understand that the manufacturer may have dealt with that issue since it emerged.

Some lenses may no longer be usable due to deep penetration in the camera throat. Any of the lenses approved for the Metabones Speedbooster 0.71 "Ultra" optical cell should be fine.

The image from some wide-angle lenses may go soft in corners.

The lay of the optics in the focal reducer may cause a soft side in image. This was an issue with some Metabones Speedboosters because of the locking system which was a small screw impinging upon the adjustable optical cell on a radial axis. I think the Lucadaptors may use a different retention method.

This was fixable by simply removing the screw or backing it off, adjusting the cell to correct focus. Then place the Speedbooster facing directly downwards for gravity to centralise the optical cell in its adjustment threads.

Then apply a few small dabs of water-cleanable white bathroom sealer across the thread junction and allow it to set before disturbing the Speedbooster. Do NOT use a silicon sealer as this stuff is impossible to shift if it gets on coated optics. Do NOT use locktite. The optical cell is completely round with no means of securing any lens tool to it.

This linked clip is not the best and was edited as 1920x1080. In the 14mm Sigma for Nikon image at the tail end of the clip, you will observe a sharpness falloff in the upper left corner. there will be better demonstrations on youtube if you search for them.



This is most likely too much information but I get carried away at times. Ignore at will.
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rick.lang

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Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 4:00 pm

Nice to be using a global shutter on that URSA Mini 4K. As for ‘looks’, you might enjoy shooting 4000x2160 in camera and trimming a few lines of resolution in post to produce an older 3996x2160 cinematic aspect ratio (1.85:1).

As for shooting CinemaDNG, I’m still using that (without issues on my recordings this month). The key is adequate lighting shooting at the native ISO and don’t push the exposure more than a stop.
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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 4:34 pm

rick.lang wrote:Nice to be using a global shutter on that URSA Mini 4K. As for ‘looks’, you might enjoy shooting 4000x2160 in camera and trimming a few lines of resolution in post to produce an older 3996x2160 cinematic aspect ratio (1.85:1).

As for shooting CinemaDNG, I’m still using that (without issues on my recordings this month). The key is adequate lighting shooting at the native ISO and don’t push the exposure more than a stop.


Obviously I won't know until shooting with it for six months or so but I'm really excited about trying it out. I like shooting outdoors and I believe this will negate a lot of the low light issues. Twelve stops is still excellent especially compared to my camcorders, DSLR, and mirrorless. I like the minimal rigging necessary with this camera. Pretty much one easy to carry "chunk" without rods and cages with "stuff" hanging on. That may not be entirely true per the screen brightness and I have an external ultra bright if I need it.

I'm just daydreaming at this point. When I get it in hand I'll obviously find out if the two of us can bond or not. I did find a very nice price on a used 35mm t.15 so I will have two lenses to start with. Will be interesting to see the difference between cinemaDNG a BMraw inside of Resolve.
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Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 5:46 pm

CinemaDNG on my URSA Mini 4.6K (firmware 4.8 December 2017) uses Colour Science Gen 3 in Resolve (since firmware 3.2 April 2016); the Camera RAW tab allows you to select Colour Science Gen 4 but not Gen 5. So that’s a difference but likely manageable.

The URSA Mini 4K was last updated to firmware 4.4 June 2017. I was assuming it’s also Colour Science Gen 3, but it may be Gen 2 as I can’t find any reference to Gen 3 being added to the Mini 4K. My uneducated guess is that it’s not as easy to match with BRAW in some situations. The first firmware release for Mini 4K is 2.8 October 2015. The Mini 4K does have its own look but I think you’ll enjoy it.

The video by Grant Petty in April 2016 briefly mentions the 4K and 4.6K cameras are now a much better match with that update.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 6:41 pm

It will likely be easiest to work with that camera’s CDNG files by using RCM or ACES in post. That way it will decode directly to the working color space of the project and which BMD color gen that it is won’t matter.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 6:47 pm

rick.lang wrote:Nice to be using a global shutter on that URSA Mini 4K.

Rick, I had the Big URSA 4K and know it had GS. I didn't know the UM 4K also had GS. Was that the case? I don't remember... although I thought it was RS.

rick.lang wrote:CinemaDNG on my URSA Mini 4.6K (firmware 4.8 December 2017) uses Colour Science Gen 3 in Resolve (since firmware 3.2 April 2016); the Camera RAW tab allows you to select Colour Science Gen 4 but not Gen 5. So that’s a difference but likely manageable.

I have the UM 4.6K G2 and it does not have in cam Gen 5 to date. Just Gen 4. :( Although if shooting BRAW, Gen 5 is supported in Resolve RAW tab for it, however not for Prores.

rick.lang wrote:The URSA Mini 4K was last updated to firmware 4.4 June 2017. I was assuming it’s also Colour Science Gen 3, but it may be Gen 2 as I can’t find any reference to Gen 3 being added to the Mini 4K. My uneducated guess is that it’s not as easy to match with BRAW in some situations.

I don't recall the URSA Mini 4K supporting BRAW. I think it only have CDNG with Gen 2 color science like the Big URSA. However, I stand corrected if that was in their last firmware. It's been a long time since I shot on the UM4K.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Contemplating adding something from the Ursa line

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 6:50 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:It will likely be easiest to work with that camera’s CDNG files by using RCM or ACES in post. That way it will decode directly to the working color space of the project and which BMD color gen that it is won’t matter.

Much easier with ACES too.
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