EOL EF BMD Cameras

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timbutt2

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EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 7:31 pm

So, I feel this is beating a dead horse: https://nofilmschool.com/canon-kills-ds ... WmrhFz7Q-E

But, I think that with Canon announcing it will stop manufacturing EF lenses, let's say that Blackmagic needs to move on towards newer mounts.

I don't think PL is going anywhere as it is still an industry standard mount for cinema glass. And, it's an amazing mount for the security. But even Arri is moving towards a shorter flange distance with LPL. Still using the great PL design however, and with a simple adapter can accept older PL glass. So, PL remains future proof for now.

But EF is on the way out. Nikon and Sony are moving towards Mirrorless these days. So if Blackmagic is going to release new cameras that no longer have native EF Mounts, then what mounts should it be?

MFT is too small for the larger Super 35 size or Full-Frame/VistaVision. So let's say that the Pocket 4K is the last of the MFT mount cameras.

My opinion is interchangeable mount is the best option. The UMP already does this. But for the Pockets I think that a URSA Micro will replace those and will feature that interchangeable mount design. This way you can still buy the EF and Nikon mounts to use those old lenses. And, you can get great cinema glass on with the PL Mount. But what will be the native mount?

Will this also prompt a native mount that is mirrorless in design? Sound off below. Curious to hear thoughts.

I'm all for LPL/PL being native, and then interchangeable for other mounts.
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Adam Langdon

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 7:47 pm

This is actually a great point. It seems to be more affordable for start-up lens makers to manufacture lenses with shorter flange distance. ??? perhaps i'm wrong, but it seems there's always something coming out that sounds like a great lens only to find out its not available in EF/PL.

I could imagine what a MFT or RF or something-mount could be with the newer 12k-style sensor.

I struggle with purchasing lensing that makes sense for long-term use, but I've settled on the SLR Magic APO Microprime PL-mount lenses. Hopefully they release an 18mm soon!
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 7:54 pm

As a Blackmagic user who is quite heavily invested in EF glass I really worry about the death of EF. RF is closed to anyone not willing or able to patent swap (RED) so that leaves Blackmagic out in the dust long term. The PL mount is not really an alternative at this price point in my opinion.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 8:05 pm

Sean van Berlo wrote:As a Blackmagic user who is quite heavily invested in EF glass I really worry about the death of EF.


There are so many EF lenses available that BMD could continue to offer this mount for another few decades and people would probably still buy it. I'm still buying lenses whose mounts were discontinued 20 years ago; as long as adapters are available it doesn't matter if they're still being made. I think BMD's rationale for EF is that it's an ubiquitous and affordable alternative to PL-mount cinema lenses for small-budget filmmakers and nonprofessionals.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 8:07 pm

It's going to take a while for EF is disappear from the market, at least several years. The URSA and Pocket with EF mounts will be far more than replaced with something else by then. So, I'm not too concern although I will invest in less EF lenses and just rent those I don't own when the need calls for it. I think the Pocket 4K with MFT will be fine for a long while too. I own the Pocket 6K and UMP 4.6K G2, both having the EF mount. It doesn't obsolete or render these cameras unusable. If I decide to move away from EF today and go with PL, I can just change their mounts. BMD sells the PL mount for the UMP while for the P6K, Wooden Camera makes a PL mount for it. It is true that the latter doesn't support all PL lenses but for what I needed to use with them, I think I'm covered. Just make your own due diligence.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 8:25 pm

The Canon EF-Mount and ARRI LPL-Mount both appear to have 44mm flange to focal plane distance.

The flange to focal plane distance for the MFT-Mount is 19.25mm.

For the BMPCC 4K, a MFT to LPL adaptor would be relatively simple to design. There is 24.75mm of workspace, about 1.7mm more when the MFT mount ring is removed.

For the URSA Mini family, the camera throat would have to be widened to accommodate the LPL-Mount shoulder on the tail of the lenses. BM's designers could probably knock that off in a weekend.

ARRI has apparently allowed their LPL-Mount to be duplicated at no charge with the intention that it becomes a future standard.

A revised Canon EF-Mount could simply be a bridgepiece in EF-Mount profile to fasten onto the casework of the BM URSA LPL Mount version. Being of a broader diameter it would likely be stronger.

I don't think there is much to fret about. I will probably be in a care home sucking semi-solids out of a baby cup before any issue arises. BM may well have become the feather duster following a take-over by a competitor before then.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 9:58 pm

I’d be surprised and saddened if BMD abandon the MFT.

As long as a camera manufacturer doesn’t create its own lens mount, it’s a good business strategy to keep the lens-mounting options diversified.

In the long term, it might be in BMD’s interest – in addition to retaining a low–mid-range line of MFT cameras – to design and develop their own large-format/full-frame suitable, short-flange distance mount for mid–high-end cameras.

Just like how they developed their own RAW format.

On the other hand, the new L-Mount Alliance appears interesting, and there’s a potential scenario where BMD joins them as well; in this timeline, they’re making L-mount cameras.

And as pointed out, DSLRs may be on their way out, but the EF mount will likely stick around for a while; third-party lens makers will probably continue to make EF lenses for the next decade or two at minimum.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 10:26 pm

Yes! Something like a LPL mount BMD should adapt for the URSA line... then I could easily and more efficiently switch adapters for PL and EF lenses. Hey!... does this mean that the prices of L series EF super teles will drop?... rats... probably not.

But really I would like to see a single URSA mount that would easily then take all the adapters (current and maybe some others) for various lenses... rather than removing and replacing several screws which must be torqued and risk stripping threads.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 11:41 pm

I have no issues with changing mounts on the URSA Mini Pro. In fact, I can go from PL to EF in 5-6 minutes and vice versa. It probably would be the same for Nikon F Mount or the B4 Mount.

And, remember ARRI offers different mounts for their cameras as well. So interchangeable lens mount is most appealing.

However, I think that when it comes to the Pockets this is where I'm thinking of the switch away from EF. Especially with it being a fixed mount. That's one of the reasons the Pocket 4K was so appealing because the MFT Mount allowed for great adapters.

For one, I'd love if Blackmagic could go Full-Frame/VistaVision with the Pockets and an E-Mount or RF-Mount. There are plenty of adapters to get EF onto those mounts. And, then you get the benefit of PL to those mounts as well. Again, that's a licensing nightmare possibly.

And, I'd love to see interchangeable lens mount be the option for the Pocket cameras. Or, a move to URSA Micro with interchangeable lens mount.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 12:38 am

I suspect you are going to get a hard divide in opinion between those that think a camera should have features like auto focus or be able to work with the lens for image stabilization and those that think a mount should be nothing more than a hole in the front of the camera.

Zcam has an interesting approach but if you are going to need communication between the camera and the lens then that is going to narrow your options.

As for the L Mount Alliance, aren't they basically dead?

I really do wish that camera companies would produce road maps so you can plan when making purchases, especially lens purchases. I am looking at buying a set of cine primes but I am like a deer in the headlights because i have no idea where BMD is headed. I can't buy RF glass for my still hybrids because they don't work with the current BMD cameras. It is obvious that Canon is getting out of the EF game. But then again how do I know BMDs next plan isn't a combo of PL/Sony? The last two years have been devastating and I just don't have the money to throw away on a bad guess as to where this is going.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 2:12 am

BMD should give the buyers the opportunity to choose between various mounts, not just pl or ef. Many people have Nikon, With the sony mount, you get two lens versions asp-c and ff lenes also.(Yes I know the issues) It will help people with these lenses decide much faster.
The new DJI camera offers a sony option the first I've seen.


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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 2:34 am

DJI must have licensed it then.
I hope BM doesn’t drop EF, there’ll be tons of lenses on the ‘preloved’ market soon :-)
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 3:49 am

lost_soul wrote:I really do wish that camera companies would produce road maps so you can plan when making purchases, especially lens purchases. I am looking at buying a set of cine primes but I am like a deer in the headlights because i have no idea where BMD is headed. I can't buy RF glass for my still hybrids because they don't work with the current BMD cameras. It is obvious that Canon is getting out of the EF game. But then again how do I know BMDs next plan isn't a combo of PL/Sony? The last two years have been devastating and I just don't have the money to throw away on a bad guess as to where this is going.

Shawn, there’s a simple solution to your quandary. Don’t buy. Rent. Calculate your rental cost and factor it into your projects or fees.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 3:53 am

Uli Plank wrote:I hope BM doesn’t drop EF, there’ll be tons of lenses on the ‘preloved’ market soon :-)

I doubt they will. In fact the better it is for BMD. As I see it, even after Canon drops it, other manufacturers would be making EF mount lenses to support camera vendors that uses EF - and there are a few of them, as well be free of licensing if any.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 12:36 pm

People have been claiming MFT is dead or dying for a while now, but it’s been adopted widely enough by different camera and lens manufacturers that it’s not yet its time to go gentle into the night.

In fact, MFT’s use in video by BMD and Panasonic with the original Pocket, Pocket 4K, GH5, BGH1, and now the upcoming GH6 has revitalized it – it’s become the more widely accessible digital equivalent to Super 16.

Which is why if MFT is jettisoned by BMD then that may mark a turning point in its lifecycle.

Along those lines, I’d give the L-mount more time before being certain of its death – it’s new enough, and its full-frame coverage, along with its 2-cm flange distance, make it suitable for video.

Though its baffling that it’s being targeted for advertisement only towards photographers and lens makers, and not for the video world.

If it’s not widely adopted within this decade, then the L-mount might just peter out. Unless maybe Panasonic solely buttress it by using it in their full-frame camera line.

But I’d like to see the L-mount, or something similar, becoming the Super 35/full-frame equivalent of MFT as far as low-budget/independent cinema and videography are concerned, as a counterweight to EF and PL.

Arri seem intent on standardizing the LPL mount – they even quietly swapped the Alexa 65’s XPL mount with LPL along with that of their newer 65 and large-format lenses; their upcoming Super 35 4K camera will also have native LPL mount, and it appears set to become the dominant standard for high-end cinema.

Edit:
robert Hart wrote:ARRI has apparently allowed their LPL-Mount to be duplicated at no charge with the intention that it becomes a future standard.


To my knowledge, that’s only for lens makers. Camera manufacturers will still have to license it from Arri, just like they’d have to do it for RF and E mounts from Canon and Sony.

Full-frame coverage, with a 2- or maximum 4-cm flange distance, seems to be increasingly solidifying as a standard for camera and lens mounts, even if the actual sensor is smaller than full frame.

So if BMD design a similar proprietary, native mount for their newer or near-future cameras which is interchangeable with EF and PL/LPL, that might just keep a lot of people content.

What’s more, a new proprietary mount will also give BMD an opportunity to design and develop their own line of full-frame, mid-end cine lenses.

They already have the software ecosystem – imagine an accompanying hardware ecosystem including lenses. That’d be a great competition for everyone from DJI to Arri.
Last edited by Bromine 18 on Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 12:47 pm

Canon EF lenses are not going away for a long time. Canon will still make lenses, they just won’t design new EF lenses. For those that think that Canon EF is dead, the canon rebel T7 is the number one selling digital camera on Amazon as well as BH photo.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 6:51 pm

if canon were to release the RF mount to other manufacturers now,
i think it would potentially have a big impact on their RAW deal with RED.


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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 8:25 pm

Can we expect Canon and other manufacturers (ie. Metabones) to come up with an EF mount to RF lens adapter with electronics mapped? That may be the way to go for cameras with EF mount for the long term.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 8:32 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:Can we expect Canon and other manufacturers (ie. Metabones) to come up with an EF mount to RF lens adapter with electronics mapped? That may be the way to go for cameras with EF mount for the long term.



this can't work because the RF mount is much shorter to the sensor,
and I don't think this could be solved reasonably with an intermediate glass.



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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 8:59 pm

Mark Foster wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:Can we expect Canon and other manufacturers (ie. Metabones) to come up with an EF mount to RF lens adapter with electronics mapped? That may be the way to go for cameras with EF mount for the long term.


this can't work because the RF mount is much shorter to the sensor,
and I don't think this could be solved reasonably with an intermediate glass.

That's what I thought too but was hoping some ingenious manufacturer may come up with something as such. ;)
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 12:49 am

Some Chinese adapters did this for other combinations with a long mount, but it ruined the IQ of the lenses.
Which doesn't mean that they can't do optics, look at Laowa or Meike and others.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 2:04 am

What can BMD offer Canon in exchange for RF mount?
RED managed it.
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Uli Plank

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 2:07 am

Well, compare the prices.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 10:41 am

Seems like Canon’s upcoming 19 Jan announcement is the new 8K Cinema EOS camera introduction.

The new camera appears to be coming with an external RAW recorder, which looks unwieldy; so what was the deal that they made with Red, if it wasn’t about internal RAW recording?

https://ymcinema.com/2022/01/11/will-ca ... next-week/

To me, RF, LPL, and E mounts are out of question – it’s unlikely to be an equitable deal for BMD, let alone the practical considerations about flange distance and electronics control.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 11:32 am

External recording to handle the heat?
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 2:07 pm

As a hobbyist (very expensive hobby :lol: ), I welcome this news if it means that the market will be flooded with EF lenses which could mean bargain prices on lenses that are currently out of my budget.

Also, I am not a camera techie by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm thinking that someone will design and market an adapter for cameras like the UMP G2 (my camera), to be able to use new lens formats. Just my $.02
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 5:10 pm

EF is the most successful camera mount ever made. There are more than 130 million EF mount lenses.

That’s not a made up number


https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/port ... -ef-lenses

But it’s not a great mount for cinema work. Even if you do a locking mount the lenses themselves are designed for a different purpose in a different era.

The big challenge for BMD is which mount to use in the future.

PL is great (for me) but it doesn’t support modern features like AF and metadata.

So what mounts can BMD use that cover 135 (just in case) and support AF and most importantly, ARE NOT proprietary and closed? And before you say RF and Sony E they are not ever likely to be available.

So that leaves what.. L mount? Still needs to be negotiated and it might not be available either. Pretty sure Leica own it and they’d have to be OK with allowing BMD in.

Not exactly lots of options.

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 7:16 pm

John Brawley wrote:EF is the most successful camera mount ever made. There are more than 130 million EF mount lenses.

That's a big number. Unless you need a cine cam that has a full frame sensor and need a FF lens, I think EF will be around for a while, just as PL will be. Those 2 mounts are probably the ones the will outlive the other mounts. The thing about it is that if a cine cam with FF sensor and let us say an RF mount on it (aka Red Komodo), you can get a EF adaptor to use EF lenses on it, albeit as APS. Nevertheless IMO, EF is still a "win" situation for both manufacturers and users.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 7:39 pm

John Brawley wrote:EF is the most successful camera mount ever made. There are more than 130 million EF mount lenses.

That’s not a made up number

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/port ... -ef-lenses

PL is great (for me) but it doesn’t support modern features like AF and metadata.

JB

Wow! That is a big number. However, that's not all cinema lenses as that includes the still lenses. It definitely makes it interesting then that Canon will stop manufacturing their lenses with that mount.

PL is great! And, I prefer it. PL does support the modern feature of Metadata if the lens manufacturer builds /i Technology into it. And, Zeiss also has their Extended Lens Data with /i Technology as well for their PL lenses now. Arri also has their LDS tech. So, PL is getting that modern feature more in modern cinema lenses.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 7:56 pm

timbutt2 wrote:
John Brawley wrote:EF is the most successful camera mount ever made. There are more than 130 million EF mount lenses.

That’s not a made up number

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/port ... -ef-lenses

PL is great (for me) but it doesn’t support modern features like AF and metadata.

JB

Wow! That is a big number. However, that's not all cinema lenses as that includes the still lenses. It definitely makes it interesting then that Canon will stop manufacturing their lenses with that mount.

PL is great! And, I prefer it. PL does support the modern feature of Metadata if the lens manufacturer builds /i Technology into it. And, Zeiss also has their Extended Lens Data with /i Technology as well for their PL lenses now. Arri also has their LDS tech. So, PL is getting that modern feature more in modern cinema lenses.



PL/i doesn’t support AF though Tim.

That’s what’s needed most here.

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timbutt2

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 8:39 pm

John Brawley wrote:PL/i doesn’t support AF though Tim.

That’s what’s needed most here.

JB

True. But with AF you can't get the true artistry of having a skilled focus puller work in coordination with the director and director of photography to tell the story deliberately through the use of focus:

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am

timbutt2 wrote:True. But with AF you can't get the true artistry of having a skilled focus puller work in coordination with the director and director of photography to tell the story deliberately through the use of focus:



I don't use AF.

But I bet only 1 in 20 of the cameras BMD sells today is PL mount.

AF is needed for success even if we aren't the ones using AF.

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am

Then BMD need to find a way of creating good AF using EF mount?
Or maybe in collaboration with say Nikon and develop an EVF to use eye control AF in exchange for BRAW internal recording?
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

WahWay wrote:Then BMD need to find a way of creating good AF using EF mount?
Or maybe in collaboration with say Nikon and develop an EVF to use eye control AF in exchange for BRAW internal recording?



EF is dead.

None of those players want to share their IP.

They need to find the next “covers all” scenarios mount.

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 2:02 am

Isn't it pretty accessible to license the L-mount? There is already a partnership.
When trying the Sigma fp with one of their lenses, it worked very well.
Why re-invent the wheel?
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am

Uli Plank wrote:Isn't it pretty accessible to license the L-mount? There is already a partnership.
When trying the Sigma fp with one of their lenses, it worked very well.
Why re-invent the wheel?



It’s not a partnership.

It’s Leica allowing others to play.

Leica and Panny have a long history. No brainer that they would get to use it as an option. Remember L mount existed only on a Leica body for a long time exclusively before the so called partnership or alliance existed.

Sigma are likely the OEM partner that actually make the Leica branded lenses for Panasonic. It all makes sense.

So far it’s only been inner circle friends of Leica friends. I’m not sure it’s a slam dunk they will open it up.

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 8:33 am

BMD has always been consumer friendly low cost alternative to pro level high end cinematography, that means people already own stills lenses in the form of EF and not having to invest in expensive PL lenses.
These days the rave is great AF and smaller or one man crew. Unless a solution to tie in with a popular mount I'm not sure what the future hold for BMD at least in those budget level market were its been the most successful.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 2:02 pm

Kim Janson wrote:The new mount should have very short flange distance, like 10 mm and there could be in future adapter for RF mount, L-mount...

It should have big radius, to fit even bigger sensors than 35mm FF.


For coverage I agree – the inner diameter of the mount must be between 6 and 7 cm so that it can be adaptable to encompass different sensor-recording areas and lens image circles, assuming the sensor is full frame or large format.

If BMD’s plan is to stick to Super 35 at the highest end for the foreseeable future, then the diameter can be even smaller.

But a flange distance of 1 cm is too short. Considering the potential space required for an OLPF or internal ND filters, 4–5 cm seems ideal, taking a leaf out of Arri’s book.

WahWay wrote:Unless a solution to tie in with a popular mount I'm not sure what the future hold for BMD at least in those budget level market were its been the most successful.


If we disregard the L-mount, then a newly developed proprietary mount seems to be the most practical in the long run for BMD, with optional adapters for EF and PL for keeping the customer base happy.

But a new proprietary mount also necessitates developing a new line of lenses, just like Arri did with Signature Primes, and now DJI is trying with DL-mount lenses.

Here, I’m guessing BMD will have to form a partnership with a lens maker if they do not or cannot manufacture the lenses directly. And considering BMD’s target of mid-end market, the lens function and price will need to be competitive. This is again up for debate.

Theoretically, if the new mount is designed with proprietary electronics, then developing a corresponding lens series with AF and processing-friendly lens data might as well be a good business move.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 2:35 pm

honestly, I'd be ok with EF mount if they (BMD) offered a Locking EF Mount system. The slight play in the lens can be annoying. I've never used the Metabones Locking EF Mount for MFT, but i assume it helps eliminate the play in the lens.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 3:36 pm

Kim Janson wrote:4 cm flange distance and above would be also really limiting to adapt any other lenses to it.


LPL’s flange focal distance is 4.4 cm, and the PL-to-LPL adapter fits inside the LPL mount. But I think that’s not the same for EF – it’s a separate mount that replaces the LPL, so I guess in that scenario, a 4-cm FFD may be limiting.

I’d prefer ND filters to be inside the camera instead of in adapters, cause the latter would be optional for a hypothetical proprietary mount that BMD may develop. Alternatively, there’s always the good old rectangular or screw-in filters.

RF and L mounts both have 2-cm FFD, and E and Z even go lower to 1.8 and 1.6 cm. But are there any cameras with those mounts coming with internal NDs?

If internal ND is disregarded, then I suppose an FFD around 2 cm would be ideal.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 3:36 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Could be smart move to make standard short flange distance camera mount, even if there would be no lenses for it at this time, just few adapters at the start. Maybe BMD could do this, together with Sigma or even just alone. Both mechanical and electrical interface should be fully free to use and documented.

Good idea but it would take the size of a company like Canon, Sony, or Nikon to introduce such camera mount and get the support of adapter manufacturers. Blackmagic is too small for such innovation and endeavor IMO.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 3:40 pm

Kim Janson wrote:"But a flange distance of 1 cm is too short. Considering the potential space required for an OLPF or internal ND filters"

Filters etc could be in the adapter. As I understand there is clear advantages for the lens design to have short flange distance (the Canon RF marketing says so anyway)

4 cm flange distance and above would be also really limiting to adapt any other lenses to it.



Actually as far as I've seen, the shorter the FFD the HARDER it is for lens designers. Leica M was probably one of the "first" short FFD cameras around (1954!!!) and they have long struggled with very wide focal length lenses for this reason. When they first swapped to digital sensors on the M8 there were many issues with wide lenses because basically, the rays have to travel FURTHER to get to the edges of the sensor than they do in the middle.

Lenses have to be designed with this in mind (more telecentric) otherwise you get shading issues from both the lenses and the sensor, and the other lenses on the sensor itself. Remember most sensors also have tiny lenses fitted to them as well, known as microlenses to improve their performance.

https://www.whatdigitalcamera.com/techn ... ined-11639

Think of it as a speed booster for every photosite :-)

I think modern lenses can be designed for these issues, but if you're taking older film era lenses, then this is sometimes one of the issues you see happening on modern sensors.

Those of you that might remember the "magenta corners" issue on these forums would have experienced this. It ends up looking like a kind of chromatic aberration as the light has to travel further to the corners. in the corners of the sensor you're starting to use the edges of the microlenses. So you get more unexpected interactions. This is under the umbrella of sensor and lens shading.

I think L mount would be a great option if BMD can swing it.

DJI OWN a lens making company, Hasselblad. So no problem to make their own lenses, and Arri have a long history of relationships with third party lens manufacturers.

BMD make their own lenses ? Maybe. But unlike electronics, making lenses isn't something that's as easily done by machine. There's actually a lot of human interaction and skills required to do it well.

And I don't think the world needs yet another "brand" of generic low cost cinema lens do they ?

Far better if they join L, or maybe start a partnership with someone like Sigma and make the mount as open and easy as possible to adapt to others...

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 5:17 pm

Do you think Sigma will collaborate with BMD in exchange for internal BRAW recording?
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 5:55 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Some flange distances

Screenshot 2022-01-13 at 17.52.32.jpg


If the new mount flange distance would be below these, it would be possible to make adapter to adapt these all to the camera. Both RF and L-mount have 20 mm flange distance.

The way I see, BMD already has their mounting system

Screenshot%202022-01-10%20at%2022.48.10.jpg


But maybe they could improve it, maybe make also the camera end with bayonet maybe standardise the camera end of the protocol and make the adapters active, to adapt to the lens protocol and maybe make it available for other to use and develop adapters to, maybe even lenses.

I do think there will be demand for a camera that can adapt to wide variety of lenses. From company whose business is not to make lenses, but cameras.


Kim none of those are for a 135 format system till you get to about 20mm. Which is what L mount is.


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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 7:41 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Yes, but likely you could not adapt RF to L-mount or vice versa as they both are 20mm and some space is needed for the adaptation, the ca. 10 mm flange distance would provide that adaptation space, so both L-mount and RF could be adapted to it.



I think that's the point. Below 20mm starts becoming hard if you're trying to stay 135.

I don't thing RF adapting is happening anytime soon.

EF protocols were never fully supported, they were only HACKED and after the patent had expired. I know that Canon had ZERO INTEREST in helping anyone with the EF protocols, which is why you still get random issues with lens support on camera firmware updates. It's all been reverse engineered. I think it will be a long time before there's any unofficial RF lens support on any camera.

GIVE UP ON RF

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 10:56 pm

John Brawley wrote:EF protocols were never fully supported, they were only HACKED and after the patent had expired. I know that Canon had ZERO INTEREST in helping anyone with the EF protocols, which is why you still get random issues with lens support on camera firmware updates. It's all been reverse engineered.

JB

I think this may be way I had my Sigma lenses lose connection with not only the Blackmagic cameras I had, but also the Canon 7D. I remember getting extremely frustrated with the Canon 7D and Sigma lenses losing iris control and the focus indicators because the lenses stopped communication with the camera. At least with the Blackmagic cameras I only lost iris control. The fix was removing the lens and putting it back on at times. Sometimes had to attach a different Canon lens to get it to work.

Yeah, I'm going to say good riddance to Canon EF. I'll spit in the direction of it as well with that "good riddance!"
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 11:40 pm

Apart from no AF all the Zeiss EF lenses have no problem working with Canon bodies but cant say the same with Ursa Mini cameras with EF mount which ocassionally loses iris. Interestingly I never experience losing iris on any EF lenses on first gen BMD cameras such as the original BMCC or BMPC4K. Also no problem with iris when using Metabones Speedbooster with MFT mount BMD cameras. So BMD seems to got the EF mount lens detection right way back in 2012 but not quite so later on.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 11:54 pm

WahWay wrote:Apart from no AF all the Zeiss EF lenses have no problem working with Canon bodies but cant say the same with Ursa Mini cameras with EF mount which ocassionally loses iris. Interestingly I never experience losing iris on any EF lenses on first gen BMD cameras such as the original BMCC or BMPC4K. Also no problem with iris when using Metabones Speedbooster with MFT mount BMD cameras. So BMD seems to got the EF mount lens detection right way back in 2012 but not quite so later on.


It depends on the lens.

Canon 85mm F1.2, 50mm F1 and the 100 macro were problems.

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostFri Jan 14, 2022 10:36 am

Whatever Canon is announcing on January 18, 2022 in terms of mounts or cameras, wouldn’t it be amazing if they began to produce only cinema lenses that could be used for stills photography but completely designed to suit the purposes of cinematography with silence stepless gears and parfocal performance still controlled by wire but easily capable of manual use as well. Wouldn’t it blow you away if they included telecentric design too?

It seems an awful lot of professional cinematographers insist on using their stockpile of stills lenses for cinematography in spite of their fundamental unsuitability for that dual purpose. That’s never going to change except when you make a generational shift as they have done before.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostFri Jan 14, 2022 12:26 pm

rick.lang wrote:It seems an awful lot of professional cinematographers insist on using their stockpile of stills lenses for cinematography in spite of their fundamental unsuitability for that dual purpose..


Well can one find a nice super telephoto for cinema for less than say $20K. oh yea, nice Fugis for $80K, $90K. I've been considering the Canon 300mm f2.8 for $6K... too bad it only comes with EF mount. (and electric aperture in 1/10 stop increments which will likely make noise like my 100-400)

It seems one just naturally ends up with various PL and EF mount lenses. This is why I would like to see a shorter locking mount on the URSA which could accept adapters from various lens mounts including EF, PL, MFT, and throw Nikon in there too. It would be nice if every lens manufacturer made a PL mount option, but they don't (or won't.) This would be far better for changing lenses. Each adapter could be live to accommodate the appropriate electronic transfers.

I understand the one lens thing as well. However, I find myself a lot of the time wishing for a wide and a tele. Oh well... just give up... it might even be cheeper to just buy another 12K so I can keep one PL and the other EF. Still would be nice to get some MFT lenses onto the super16 12K.
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