Blackmagic Forum

My first work after the pandemic stopped everything, was a very small indie film called The Desperate Hour. (Formally called Lakewood).

It went out into cinemas today in the US and is also available for streaming.

It was shot entirely using the 12K Ursa Mini Pro as the main "A" camera.

If you want to see a 12K shot film in a cinema, nows the time to go and see it. These days it's hard to see independent films in cinemas as the release window is very short.

Here's a detailed write up and a trailer.

https://www.fdtimes.com/2022/02/25/the-desperate-hour/

and the trailer



JB

John Brawley wrote:My first work after the pandemic stopped everything, was a very small indie film called The Desperate Hour. (Formally called Lakewood).

It went out into cinemas today in the US and is also available for streaming.

It was shot entirely using the 12K Ursa Mini Pro as the main "A" camera.

If you want to see a 12K shot film in a cinema, nows the time to go and see it. These days it's hard to see independent films in cinemas as the release window is very short.

Here's a detailed write up and a trailer.

https://www.fdtimes.com/2022/02/25/the-desperate-hour/

and the trailer

JB

Thanks for sharing John! Looks really good.

Strange, it only has one showing at only one theater in the entire area. I'm going to go catch this tonight John.

Tim Kraemer wrote:Strange, it only has one showing at only one theater in the entire area. I'm going to go catch this tonight John.

Yes. It’s a small movie, and independently released. I’m surprised they got it into any cinemas.

There’s only one cinema in Miami screening it where I’m currently working.

JB

I'll have to see if there are any theaters near me in the Tampa/St. Pete area playing it. But I'm in Orlando for the weekend for a gig.

What Streaming platforms is it on? Just in case I can't find a theater to see it in.

timbutt2 wrote:
What Streaming platforms is it on? Just in case I can't find a theater to see it in.

You can buy / rent on Apple TV / Itunes Movies. Youtube Premium, Amazon.

JB

It looks good! I'd be curious to hear about shoot specs, resolution, RAW settings etc., as well as color grading specs -- was there a base LUT you guys were using for the grade?

Not sure how much of that you can share, but it always interests me how these cams are being implemented in higher end productions.

John,
It looks exciting. I will have to catch it on streaming though... too bad, as the color and filming looks to be great. And yes it would be nice to hear of any advantages the 12K gave you for this.

This looks really good! At the moment i was here contemplating buying 2 ursa mini 12k’s. I was like should i wait until April/may to see if there’s a 2nd version of the 12k. John you just made my decision a lot easier. Or a lot harder

John Brawley wrote:https://www.fdtimes.com/2022/02/25/the-desperate-hour/

Thanks for the insight, Jon!

I have a question, regarding what you said about the BRAW compression:

"It’s not based on motion; it’s based on what’s in focus. So, if something is out of focus, it uses less data, and if it’s in focus it uses more data. So it’s not based on what’s moving, it’s based on the sharpness of the image, essentially."

I will shoot a feature on 16mm P.Angenieux Zooms from the 1960s, which are super soft. Do you think this overall softness of the image might conflict with the Constant Quality compression of BRAW so that I am better off with Constant Bitrate? I will do some testing later in April, but for now I am interested in what you think.

Thanks in advance,
Jannik

Thank you for sharing the information, John!
Since it'll never come to a cinema around here, I'm going to watch it in our home cinema streaming from Apple TV.

@Jannik:
I'm looking forward to John's answer, but from my experience Q0 is highly adaptive. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it with a softer lens.

P.S. Can't find it on Apple TV or Amazon, only another one called "The Desperate Hours". Not yet public?

Uli Plank wrote:
P.S. Can't find it on Apple TV or Amazon, only another one called "The Desperate Hours". Not yet public?

It may be in your region it's not yet available?

JB

Zweistein wrote:
I will shoot a feature on 16mm P.Angenieux Zooms from the 1960s, which are super soft. Do you think this overall softness of the image might conflict with the Constant Quality compression of BRAW so that I am better off with Constant Bitrate? I will do some testing later in April, but for now I am interested in what you think.

Thanks in advance,
Jannik

Ha, no not at all. It might mean you use less data though

You should for sure test it out, but I almost always shoot using the adaptive constant quality Q compression.

JB

Jeffrey D Mathias wrote:John,
It looks exciting. I will have to catch it on streaming though... too bad, as the color and filming looks to be great. And yes it would be nice to hear of any advantages the 12K gave you for this.

It's mostly covered in the linked article above, but it was a combination of the small size, low cost and high resolution.

It meant we could have four bodies for the rental price of one Alexa body, with a lot more resolution which was important for a film that would require a lot of post stabilisation, and it really suited the style of shooting we had to do to be able to be always moving.

JB

Tamas Harangi wrote:It looks good! I'd be curious to hear about shoot specs, resolution, RAW settings etc., as well as color grading specs -- was there a base LUT you guys were using for the grade?

Not sure how much of that you can share, but it always interests me how these cams are being implemented in higher end productions.

Mostly covered in the above linked article, but we shot mostly 12K Q3 but quite a bit of 8K when the faster rolling shutter time was more desirable for fast motion.

I just used good old extended LUT for the dailies and of course graded it a lot more later. We typically started from scratch based on FILM and built up a look based on that.

JB

JB, thanks for sharing the article. It was an interesting read. Well done. I’ll look for it on prime since it’s not in any of our local theaters. BTW, what was the approximate budget for this film?

John Brawley wrote:Ha, no not at all. It might mean you use less data though You should for sure test it out, but I almost always shoot using the adaptive constant quality Q compression.

Alright, thanks! I'll share my test results in April.

I have one more question: On one of the photos in the article you can see that you used a re-locating modification for the URSA viewfinder. Which one was it and are you happy with it? Thanks in advance!

Article has been removed..

Zweistein wrote:

John Brawley wrote:Ha, no not at all. It might mean you use less data though You should for sure test it out, but I almost always shoot using the adaptive constant quality Q compression.

Alright, thanks! I'll share my test results in April.

I have one more question: On one of the photos in the article you can see that you used a re-locating modification for the URSA viewfinder. Which one was it and are you happy with it? Thanks in advance!

I have the wooden camera modification. I believe they have stopped selling them as people were occasionally blowing up their viewfinders and it becomes very awkward when it comes to responsibility in that regard. I don’t think Wooden liked customers coming back after buying a 500 dollar mod and then bricking their 2k EVF with it.

I have four of them and they’ve been great but some it hasn’t been the case.

JB

Article, now it's up..

John Brawley wrote: we shot mostly 12K Q3 but quite a bit of 8K when the faster rolling shutter time was more desirable for fast motion.

This is very interesting. Is there information out there about the rolling shutter speed differences at different resolutions?

I guess less photo sites to read, so it's a faster read at lower resolutions? But does that mean that the 4K BRAW capture would be 3x faster rolling shutter as opposed to 12K?

John Brawley wrote:I have the wooden camera modification. I believe they have stopped selling them as people were occasionally blowing up their viewfinders and it becomes very awkward when it comes to responsibility in that regard. I don’t think Wooden liked customers coming back after buying a 500 dollar mod and then bricking their 2k EVF with it.

I have four of them and they’ve been great but some it hasn’t been the case.

Thanks again! Interesting, seems like a good solution, maybe one can still find some online here and there.

John Brawley wrote:Here's a detailed write up and a trailer.

Nice.

I looked into the Rawlite OLPF-filter—it reminded me of something I used to have in the 5D mkII.

I saw a pretty solid before/after comparison on YouTube that showed the IR and Moiré benefits, but that it also introduced the infamous RED polkadot 'red dots' when shooting into the sun or a light.

It was pretty intrusive and kind of a no-go to be honest.

Is this something you're aware of and that you work around, or have you not had the issue?

AndreeMarkefors wrote:
I saw a pretty solid before/after comparison on YouTube that showed the IR and Moiré benefits, but that it also introduced the infamous RED polkadot 'red dots' when shooting into the sun or a light.

It was pretty intrusive and kind of a no-go to be honest.

Is this something you're aware of and that you work around, or have you not had the issue?

I assume you mean the artefact from the attached image ? ....From a Panavised RED / DXL from a big budget movie

I've never seen that artefact from the RAWLITE on BMD cameras....and I'm assuming this is because the distance from the sensor to the filter stack is different.

RED always seem to have this problem. I've found that Komodo is the only RED camera that doesn't seem to suffer from this.

JB

John Brawley wrote:I assume you mean the artefact from the attached image ?

Yup. Exactly that =)

But this happened to this guy as well, with the Rawlite. The video should queue up to 7:28:



He seems to be able to reproduce it "easily", so it's good to hear you haven't seen much of it.

EDIT: video seems to start at the beginning, but the issue is at 7:28 marked as 'the one big issue' in his chapters.

AndreeMarkefors wrote:
Yup. Exactly that =)

But this happened to this guy as well, with the Rawlite. The video should queue up to 7:28:

Interesting.

It's not something I've seen and I'm very used to seeing it in RED cameras. There's a few shots in the film with direct sun like this and you get the same flare pattern but without the red dots.

Only thing I can think that's different is I've never used the RAWLITE with the P4K / P6K, which I think is what the guy is testing here....

JB

Tamas Harangi wrote:

John Brawley wrote: we shot mostly 12K Q3 but quite a bit of 8K when the faster rolling shutter time was more desirable for fast motion.

This is very interesting. Is there information out there about the rolling shutter speed differences at different resolutions?

I guess less photo sites to read, so it's a faster read at lower resolutions? But does that mean that the 4K BRAW capture would be 3x faster rolling shutter as opposed to 12K?

It's faster in 8K than 12K, but 4K isn't any faster.

It's about 15.5ms in 12K full sensor, but at 8K it's 7.8ms....Close to Alexa....

JB

Yeah, this is, I think the Pocket 6K.

He seems to mention that he's 'pretty stopped down' in the beginning using his phone, at close to f11? That kind of rang a bell when it was an issue in the RED forums: it was most visible when people were stopping down.

I personally never tend to stop down beyond f8 (if that) and I'm wondering if he's shooting with the original P6K and doesn't use external NDs.

I would have been interesting to see what it looked like at f4 to 5.6 or more open.

AndreeMarkefors wrote:Yeah, this is, I think the Pocket 6K.

He seems to mention that he's 'pretty stopped down' in the beginning using his phone, at close to f11? That kind of rang a bell when it was an issue in the RED forums: it was most visible when people were stopping down.

I personally never tend to stop down beyond f8 (if that) and I'm wondering if he's shooting with the original P6K and doesn't use external NDs.

I would have been interesting to see what it looked like at f4 to 5.6 or more open.

In my shooting experience on a RED this shows up when closer to wide open.

I don’t really shoot past 5.6 and I’ve definitely seen this on RED before even that deep.

But maybe it’s there on a deep stop. I’ve just never shot that deep ?

JB

Hey john, i just ordered two ursa 12k’s. Thanks to you. I really loved the grade on Desperate hour. Can you tell us a little of your grading process. For example as a start do you use Davinci color managed? Wide Gamut etc? Were there any Luts used in your grading process? Would love to try and emulate the look of your film. Thanks

AndreeMarkefors wrote:Yeah, this is, I think the Pocket 6K.

He seems to mention that he's 'pretty stopped down' in the beginning using his phone, at close to f11? That kind of rang a bell when it was an issue in the RED forums: it was most visible when people were stopping down.

I personally never tend to stop down beyond f8 (if that) and I'm wondering if he's shooting with the original P6K and doesn't use external NDs.

I would have been interesting to see what it looked like at f4 to 5.6 or more open.

John Brawley wrote:In my shooting experience on a RED this shows up when closer to wide open.

I don’t really shoot past 5.6 and I’ve definitely seen this on RED before even that deep.

But maybe it’s there on a deep stop. I’ve just never shot that deep ?

JB

I have the Rawlight OLPF installed here on a UMP 12K and a 6K Pocket Pro. I just spent the last 10 minutes pointing the camera directly into the sun, and shining the iPhone flash light into it, same as he did in the video, and no matter how I angled the camera nor what aperture + ND combos I tried, I was not able to trigger that pattern to appear. No red dots. So, there has to be some other factor in the mix with his setup.

And congratulations on the film release JB! I'm looking forward to watching it tonight!

Jamie LeJeune wrote: So, there has to be some other factor in the mix with his setup.

And congratulations on the film release JB! I'm looking forward to watching it tonight!

Thanks !

What mount are your cameras ? EF ?

JB

John Brawley wrote:What mount are your cameras ? EF ?

JB

Both PL. My EF days are done. I swapped the mount on the 6K Pocket Pro using the Wooden Camera kit.

Jamie LeJeune wrote:No red dots. So, there has to be some other factor in the mix with his setup.

Sure: the lens he used. It happens with lenses that have the last surface in the rear with very low curvature (from my experience with Red).

Simply wonderful to see what can be done with a BM. Inspirational for sure.

Jamie LeJeune wrote:Both PL. My EF days are done.

Uli Plank wrote:Sure: the lens he used. It happens with lenses that have the last surface in the rear with very low curvature (from my experience with Red).

Thanks for the additional input. If someone has more info or wants to discuss further we could break the discussion out into a new thread.

Let's get this one back on track to be about the 12K UMP film.

AndreeMarkefors wrote:

John Brawley wrote:I assume you mean the artefact from the attached image ?

Yup. Exactly that =)

But this happened to this guy as well, with the Rawlite. The video should queue up to 7:28:

He seems to be able to reproduce it "easily", so it's good to hear you haven't seen much of it.

EDIT: video seems to start at the beginning, but the issue is at 7:28 marked as 'the one big issue' in his chapters.

had responded after seeing the video and received the following response:

Jamie LeJeune wrote:

John Brawley wrote:What mount are your cameras ? EF ?

JB

Both PL. My EF days are done. I swapped the mount on the 6K Pocket Pro using the Wooden Camera kit.

I'm only PL really too, though we had a couple of EF mount shots in the film with the 6K. But not with an OLPF.

Maybe it's EF related.

JB

Donnell Henry wrote:Hey john, i just ordered two ursa 12k’s. Thanks to you. I really loved the grade on Desperate hour. Can you tell us a little of your grading process. For example as a start do you use Davinci color managed? Wide Gamut etc? Were there any Luts used in your grading process? Would love to try and emulate the look of your film. Thanks

Ha ! OK no pressure, I hope they live up to your expectations !

For me, I typically build a LUT for each project, based on a lot of testing in pre. I often start with EXTENDED because I tend to work with new colourists all the time and this is a gentle way to introduce them to the camera.

From there I typically build a couple of simple looks that can be applied to dailies in an almost automated way. This simply shows INTENT for the editorial process and the director to work with til we get to the grade.

The final colour itself, typically we start again, usually referencing the original look. I'm not usually imposing a workflow on the colourist because they all have their own way and process. We talk about the deliverable, is it for cinema (like this) or is it for HDR or even REC 709. I've done all three in the last 6 months !

So basically it's coming up with a intended look, and then grading the shots to match that look for each situation.

Some colourists don't even work in Resolve

I just finished a series that's about to air that's graded in Baselight. Basically every hand held shot in this is a 12K.


JB

Awesome! Thank you so much John. I also do something very Similar. I often go to the site where we’re shooting. Take a couple of shots of the area. Then create a Lut for in camera use on the day of the shoot. Then use that Lut as a starting point for the final grade. So at least I’m not that far off. You did an exceptional job on both projects posted. You make those 12 k’s shine so easy. They’ll definitely live up to my expectations.Thank you!

Not to derail from JB wonderful work on Desperate Hours and the technical discussions on the cinematography, the URSA 12K, and the awesome lenses and rig. I thought I said something that there’s been several feature films shot using the Blackmagic URSA line of cameras. A recent modest budget film by Karen Schuback was shot with an URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2 as the A cam and a Sony A7s for some of the very low light scenes and B cam. Both cams had vintage lenses on them. As a contributor to this project in late 2019 and just before COVID appeared in the US soil, I spend parts of 2020 editing and grading. This was shot in BM 4K DCI Prores HQ film mode (log) and delivered in FHD for streaming and 2K DCI for theatrical (DCP). It was played in a few theaters in the USA and distribution was acquired by Indie Rights which is now available and streaming through Amazon Prime.

https://www.amazon.com/Angel-Mountain-D ... B09CLKL6J2

I can think of other 5 or 6 Indie features that were shot using the URSA Mini cameras so this is not the first. It may be the first URSA 12K feature film, thanks to JB.

Hey John, in your opinion, did you struggle to protect the highlights when compared to the G2 and Alexa? I shot some commercial work with the 12K and found that I seemed to have less highlight latitude than I was expecting based on shooting with the G2 (I did not test them side by side). Your work looks great!

Curious, finally checked iTunes to see its only HD. Sad Face.

Should I wait for digital streaming to hit 4K HDR if I can’t find a local theater. Going to try for this weekend if I can. Got some more shoots this week, so will aim for when I can get to the theater.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

timbutt2 wrote:Curious, finally checked iTunes to see its only HD. Sad Face.
Should I wait for digital streaming to hit 4K HDR if I can’t find a local theater. Going to try for this weekend if I can. Got some more shoots this week, so will aim for when I can get to the theater.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

From experience, almost all Indie budget films are finished in FHD and/or 2K DCI even though they are shot in 4K or higher resolutions. 4K HDR Indie films are going to be rare for a long while because of Post cost and budget. Not sure if this is different for JB's film but I don't see this changing much soon, at least not in the next couple of years. Hopefully I'm wrong with that timeline.

timbutt2 wrote:Curious, finally checked iTunes to see its only HD. Sad Face.

Should I wait for digital streaming to hit 4K HDR if I can’t find a local theater. Going to try for this weekend if I can. Got some more shoots this week, so will aim for when I can get to the theater.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I just rented it in HD, looks great on a 4K display. Really great work, the light in the close-ups is really rich while seeing the heightened emotional state in the face.

Was just flicking though Sky cinema and see that this film has been rebadged as a sky original and is free to watch in the uk! (If you have sky of course)

Will give it a go this weekend!

AndreeMarkefors wrote:
Yup. Exactly that =)

But this happened to this guy as well, with the Rawlite. The video should queue up to 7:28:

EDIT: video seems to start at the beginning, but the issue is at 7:28 marked as 'the one big issue' in his chapters.

Rawlite has received one report (from this user only) for this with his BMPCC 6K (not the Pro version) and BMPCC 4K. We're looking into this. We've not received any reports of this phenomenon for our other Rawlite OLPF models.