No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

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rick.lang

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 3:59 am

We shall see Grant in about 12 hours!
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 7:31 am

timbutt2 wrote:Although, the new Cloud editing services in Resolve 18 and Blackmagic Cloud could actually shake things up. The end of an era for Avid could be coming. Adobe didn't have a shot, but Blackmagic could with Resolve. Especially since Resolve is already the go to for color grading.

Granted Avid as NLE, Nuke for VFX Compositing, and Pro Tools for Audio is the standard that will take time to move away from. But DaVinci Resolve has all those tools inside, and you never have to switch software. Seamless post production is a pipe dream.


Not to derail this thread, Tim, any longer but currently still about 90-95% of my income comes from Avid, that is changing though particularly as I re-enter production and Resolve is increasingly part of the scene. It is so much better in every respect except pure editing, at the moment. After years of owning and using Pro Tools too, Fairlight has completely taken over for me and Color, streets ahead of Symphony.

But it might be worth mentioning that ever since lockdown began us WFH, I have been using on and off (along with Teradici and HP's Z Central) a little known German system remarkably similar to BMD's Cloud, called Quadrus (https://quadrus.tv/storage) which can use off the shelf NAS. In post sharing timelines at the same time is rarely needed, what is more useful is project sharing, with centralised media, accesible locally and that has been workable for some time in Avidland.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 10:30 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Not to derail this thread, Tim, any longer but currently still about 90-95% of my income comes from Avid, that is changing though particularly as I re-enter production and Resolve is increasingly part of the scene. It is so much better in every respect except pure editing, at the moment. After years of owning and using Pro Tools too, Fairlight has completely taken over for me and Color, streets ahead of Symphony.

But it might be worth mentioning that ever since lockdown began us WFH, I have been using on and off (along with Teradici and HP's Z Central) a little known German system remarkably similar to BMD's Cloud, called Quadrus (https://quadrus.tv/storage) which can use off the shelf NAS. In post sharing timelines at the same time is rarely needed, what is more useful is project sharing, with centralised media, accesible locally and that has been workable for some time in Avidland.


apple had the chance to topple avid from its throne with finalcutpro,
but they screwed it up with the newFCPx and thus relied more and more on the simple consumer.
and that also with the hardware.

after the expiration of finalcutpro was for avid the salvation anchor, and adobe wrote premiere
so far to take over many functions and former users of finalcutpro.

resolve was not available as an editor back then, but if it had been back then, good night avid.

and if you look at all the mail flood which avid inundates me in the last two years with offers,
I see in it rather that they stand with their backs to the wall.

.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 11:15 am

Mark Foster wrote:
Steve Fishwick wrote:
Not to derail this thread, Tim, any longer but currently still about 90-95% of my income comes from Avid, that is changing though particularly as I re-enter production and Resolve is increasingly part of the scene. It is so much better in every respect except pure editing, at the moment. After years of owning and using Pro Tools too, Fairlight has completely taken over for me and Color, streets ahead of Symphony.

But it might be worth mentioning that ever since lockdown began us WFH, I have been using on and off (along with Teradici and HP's Z Central) a little known German system remarkably similar to BMD's Cloud, called Quadrus (https://quadrus.tv/storage) which can use off the shelf NAS. In post sharing timelines at the same time is rarely needed, what is more useful is project sharing, with centralised media, accesible locally and that has been workable for some time in Avidland.


apple had the chance to topple avid from its throne with finalcutpro,
but they screwed it up with the newFCPx and thus relied more and more on the simple consumer.
and that also with the hardware.

after the expiration of finalcutpro was for avid the salvation anchor, and adobe wrote premiere
so far to take over many functions and former users of finalcutpro.

resolve was not available as an editor back then, but if it had been back then, good night avid.

and if you look at all the mail flood which avid inundates me in the last two years with offers,
I see in it rather that they stand with their backs to the wall.

.
Their backs are not against the wall. Their stock is trading at its highest since 2005. They have actually transformed from a company that could have failed to a leaner company. I get that they have issues, but to say they are against the wall is not true. I’ve worked for Lions Gate, Miramax and even broadcast and Avid is and will be the editor of choice.


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roger.magnusson

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 11:26 am

I think BMD would rather have the most used editor than the editor most feature films are edited on.

They have said in other instances that the highest end market isn't their target (when asked about simple features a professional DIT needs for offloading).
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 11:35 am

AVIDs shared media system is why they dominate in high end. When you need multiple edit systems working on the same material. Think about episodic TV where you have assistants syncing sound, assembly editors cutting dailies, editors cutting scenes, assistants taking shots from previous episodes for recaps, assistants complying VFX pulls, promos cutting teasers.

Nothing shares those and makes it simpler to organise than AVID. And they’ve been doing it for years. Cloud storage doesn’t change how those apps work with shared timelines and bins like that. They used to call it UNITY, but I’m not sure if that’s what it’s called today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_ISIS

If it’s a single system, then yeah things are different.

But the point made above is good. Not the most high end but the most users is just fine.

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 12:40 pm

Mark Foster wrote:resolve was not available as an editor back then, but if it had been back then, good night avid.

and if you look at all the mail flood which avid inundates me in the last two years with offers,
I see in it rather that they stand with their backs to the wall.


I don't know what you do Mark professionally but this is, sorry, complete nonsense :) . I'm not here to defend Avid but 95% of Broadcast and Features are still cut on Avid, this year's Oscar winners alone were all Avid. At an enterprise level, which is their big business they still dominate. The pool of pro editors throughout the world as well is overwhelmingly Avid based.

But yes the other end, of wide usage, is very very important and BMD are listening, watching and learning toward the enterprise too. They are absolutely on the case and recent developments show that they are very serious. Resolve is already a major grading player, blowing Symphony out of the water a while back. For me Avid/Resolve is a business no brainer killer combo.
John Brawley wrote:They used to call it UNITY, but I’m not sure if that’s what it’s called today.


It's called Nexis John.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 2:16 pm

With the live stream in just over 2 hours. Where's the best place to watch it? I don't see BMD talking about it anywhere.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 2:29 pm

I doubt a Blackmagic Camera will be announced. More than likely talking new Blackmagic Cloud and Resolve 18.

Link below to live stream:

https://nabshow.com/2022/?fbclid=IwAR0L ... EVwQW0jlK8


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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 3:25 pm

Patrick Spectra wrote: Their backs are not against the wall. Their stock is trading at its highest since 2005. They have actually transformed from a company that could have failed to a leaner company. I get that they have issues, but to say they are against the wall is not true. I’ve worked for Lions Gate, Miramax and even broadcast and Avid is and will be the editor of choice.


then wait until the young ones replace the old ones.
avid has bad cards with the new generation.

i'll be 64 this year and have been in the film business for 38 years.
was also one of the first to cut on avid MC in the early 1990 here in europe.
but maybe I'm wrong, but that's my assessment.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 4:24 pm

6 minutes and counting.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 4:38 pm

First 2 minutes in and it doesn't look like there will be any new announcements. Looks like Aputure will be getting the bulk of my NAB budget.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 4:42 pm

No Grant. No camera announcement. :(
Boring... Moving on to a more productive day.

On the positive end, no new camera means existing cameras are just as effective. If they only come out with a Gen5 for UMP 4.6K G2 firmware.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 4:52 pm

Well, that was fun to watch while I upload this color grade XML to Google Drive. I hate the XML process and doing this for Premiere Pro editors, but until they convert I'll charge them for the wasted time on exporting graded clips with XML and dealing with the upload. I make more money off their terrible NLE choice.

Either way, I'm fine with no new camera announcement. It means Blackmagic is taking the time to develop the next camera right. And, if they use half of the many things I've suggested over the years then I'll be very satisfied with it.

As for the Avid debate above. I know it is industry standard and it will take a lot for studios to leave it. Is Resolve there yet? Probably not yet. But in 2-3 years with Cloud and all the other collaboration improvements you'll be hard pressed to deny the appeal of switching to a fully DaVinci Resolve post-production workflow.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 5:48 pm

dondidnod wrote:NABShow Daily, April 24.

Blackmagic made the front page and page 2 with the URSA Mini Pro 12K. Blackmagic advertises it's $5,995 price, unlike Canon, which doesn't disclose the $22,000 price of their CR-X500 4K PTZ camera announcement on page 9.

The Blackmagic Web Presenter is on page 4. The URSA Broadcast G2 is on page 20.

https://issuu.com/futurepublishing/docs ... zQ3NzcxMDk


NABShow Daily, April 25

https://issuu.com/futurepublishing/docs ... d=31790704

Page 4 - Blackmagic Studio Camera 4K Pro/ Plus
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 6:29 pm

So I guess nothing sandwich when it comes to a new camera this year?

Perhaps they are moving away from NAB-timed announcements?

While I don't think we need more resolution, I do think the market is kinda primed for a modular-friendly (i.e. RED-like) body, ideally with a metal chassis that can take a beating, with a FF sensor. I think sticking with plastics is one of the main reasons why many DP's don't consider Blackmagic cameras to be combat-worthy.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 8:05 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:So I guess nothing sandwich when it comes to a new camera this year?

Perhaps they are moving away from NAB-timed announcements?

While I don't think we need more resolution, I do think the market is kinda primed for a modular-friendly (i.e. RED-like) body, ideally with a metal chassis that can take a beating, with a FF sensor. I think sticking with plastics is one of the main reasons why many DP's don't consider Blackmagic cameras to be combat-worthy.

I heard the Canon C300 Mark III and the C500 Mark II are very plasticky
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 8:29 pm

Atomos new video recorder lets you record Prores RAW locally (SSD) and proxies to the Atomos Cloud/Frame.IO simultaneously while filming, same time code, frame rate. Here comes the cloud race.

EDIT: This cloud race, although exciting, I'm not sure if for the little guy like me will be any value. As I read more about it, this is just companies looking to make reoccurring monthly revenue by selling subscription, pay per use or storage, etc. I would not want to subscribe to such services. That's why I use Resolve Studio. I can have everything done on SSDs, HDDs, and everything local. However, the BMD Cloud offering, and price is, IMO, more favorable for all levels of creatives.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 9:22 pm

Confession of a Luddite:
I know I’m not ready for using a collaborative approach with many parties editing or colouring my (insignificant) work simultaneously. I want to do that work and certainly am open to criticism and requested changes from a producer or director.

But I wouldn’t enjoy serving up a spaghetti dinner and having one of them transforming it to sloppy joes while the other removes all the tomatoes.

Fortunately I’ve been able to follow my approach so far. Sure I make changes but it’s my hands juggling the balls, not three people juggling at the same time.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 9:26 pm

The Broadcast G2 looks promising as far as a good all-in-one camera solution (cinema & broadcast) for production companies who want to do a good range of things (albeit in a fairly bulky/heavy form factor, relatively speaking for these days). However, I really think BMD ought to streamline their URSA product line with just two models:

1. One dedicated to high-end cinema, like the 12K model they currently have (is that full frame?). Maybe even a digital 65mm or IMAX equivalent(!?).

2. An all-purpose URSA like the Broadcast G2, except for the following changes:
- Various cropping modes other than just for 2/3" broadcast, such as for Super 16 (someone on Newsshooter.com had mentioned that). How about an electronic anamorphic mode so you could also shoot 'scope (2.35, 2.39, etc.)?
- Lighter weight! Almost 8 lbs. is too much just for the body. Bring it down to the 2 lb. range like Z-CAM.
- Screw holes for shotgun mic holder should be off the handle and preferably somewhere on the right side of the body, but still top-mounted so there's enough height away from the lens (last thing you need is a deadcat on your shotgun mic showing up in wide shots - good thing is BMD's mic holder already includes an upward-angled bracket, thanks BMD). Anyway, it should be off the handle for more room for the operator's hand, and integrated shoe mounts on the front and back of the handle, like Tilta has with their top handles, for example.
- And very importantly, make the interchangeable lens mounts easier to swap, through some kind of quick-release system, not with a bunch of tiny screws that can get lost and take time to install going from one type of lens to another. Even if all your projects are film-style, suppose you rent a bunch of lenses and some of the ones that were available were PL mount and others were EF mount? And how about an RF mount and an E mount?
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 10:27 pm

ebinrock wrote:2. An all-purpose URSA like the Broadcast G2, except for the following changes:
- Various cropping modes other than just for 2/3" broadcast, such as for Super 16 (someone on Newsshooter.com had mentioned that). How about an electronic anamorphic mode so you could also shoot 'scope (2.35, 2.39, etc.)?
- Lighter weight! Almost 8 lbs. is too much just for the body. Bring it down to the 2 lb. range like Z-CAM.
- Screw holes for shotgun mic holder should be off the handle and preferably somewhere on the right side of the body, but still top-mounted so there's enough height away from the lens


I suppose you can't please everyone :D but I love my UBG2 as it is and think it is already incredibly versatile at an amazing price. It has 3.7K 6:5 anamorphic, with various de-squeeze options and it has full sensor 2:4:1 too. It also has 2.7k which is close to Super 16 though only HD. The problem is getting the right lenses which would be more trouble than simply using high quality B4 lenses for a similar effect.

The mic holder doesn't bother me at all and I don't have particularly small hands, in fact I think it's great and one of my Senny 416's looks like it was made for the camera. And I love the Ursa body and bought it specifically because I wanted a bigger shoulder mount ENG type camera - it has one of the best adjustable balances I've ever experienced too with the VF. I wouldn't want it any smaller, I'll get a Pocket for that.

I think it's almost an ideal product that hopefully can be only improved through firmware through it's lifecycle.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 11:45 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:I suppose you can't please everyone :D but I love my UBG2 as it is and think it is already incredibly versatile at an amazing price..

I think it's almost an ideal product that hopefully can be only improved through firmware through it's lifecycle.


I concur. I love the Ursa Broadcast G2 as well, especially because it has the Pocket 6k sensor, which I believe renders the most Alexa-like image of any Blackmagic camera. I would like ISO option and ProRes LT as well. Oh and also the ability to send webcam video from the USB-C so I can plug into MacBook and live stream client feed over Zoom.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Apr 25, 2022 11:55 pm

Will Vazquez wrote:
Steve Fishwick wrote:I suppose you can't please everyone :D but I love my UBG2 as it is and think it is already incredibly versatile at an amazing price..

I think it's almost an ideal product that hopefully can be only improved through firmware through it's lifecycle.


I concur. I love the Ursa Broadcast G2 as well, especially because it has the Pocket 6k sensor, which I believe renders the most Alexa-like image of any Blackmagic camera. I would like ISO option and ProRes LT as well. Oh and also the ability to send webcam video from the USB-C so I can plug into MacBook and live stream client feed over Zoom.


This is a very interesting discussion. How would the UBG2 be a better camera over the UMPG2 for a narrative filmmaker, and pay more for the UMPG2 if all its glory can be done on the UBG2? I believe I have answered this myself and I don't like the answer. I wonder though, what other narrative filmmakers are thinking with their UMPG2 investment.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 2:36 am

Ellory Yu wrote:This is a very interesting discussion. How would the UBG2 be a better camera over the UMPG2 for a narrative filmmaker, and pay more for the UMPG2 if all its glory can be done on the UBG2? I believe I have answered this myself and I don't like the answer. I wonder though, what other narrative filmmakers are thinking with their UMPG2 investment.


If you mostly shoot 24p/25p, the UBG2 has image quality that to my eye looks more like Alexa and is prettier. I find it also renders thicker skin color, a thicker negative per se. I always felt that the older UMPG2 rendered not as nice color, caucasian skin would look more brown and washed out. UMPG2 also has ugly fixed pattern noise even at 1600 ISO. I remember when I first got my UMPG2 a few years back I thought I had a dud with all the FPN. I sent it to BMD and they said it was was within normal specs, so shortly after I sold it. The older UMPG2 is also condemned to older Gen4 color science. The newer UBG2's Gen5 color is so nice that most of the time I just use the Alexa LUT on it and a little tweak and it looks velvety smooth.

However, if you do a lot of slow motion then the UMPG2 is the leader, and the faster sensor read-out produces minimal rolling shutter if you're doing fast pans a lot. Unless you really need 4.6k 120 fps, the UBG2 is way better choice in my opinion.

I think that it mostly comes down to personal taste. I love the image out of the newer camera, and not so much from the older one. Others here will disagree.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 9:54 am

Ellory Yu wrote:This is a very interesting discussion. How would the UBG2 be a better camera over the UMPG2 for a narrative filmmaker, and pay more for the UMPG2 if all its glory can be done on the UBG2? I believe I have answered this myself and I don't like the answer. I wonder though, what other narrative filmmakers are thinking with their UMPG2 investment.


Unlike Will and you guys I have no direct experience of the UMPG2 and certainly would make no claim the UBG2 is better, but here is my take, Ellory, after only a short while of ownership:

Although I believe it's been rather successful in its intended market, I think BMD may have missed a trick in calling this current model the Ursa Broadcast, which may have put off many people regarding it for any film work. In many ways it's follows the product category, at a much lower price of course, of the Alexa Amira which is similarly flexible for B4 Eng/studio configs and digital film work with a Super 35 workflow. Maybe it should have been called the Ursa Film & TV camera or something.

I can only compare it to the UMPG2 on compressed YT and then really from the Pocket 6K footage with the same sensor. The real quality difference I can see is coming from the 12K in terms of colour resolution and the differences of the others are more subtle. Like Will I am finding using an Alexa emulation lut and Gen 5 is producing extremely nice images. Bear in mind at the moment I only have a 20 year old Canon J16 SD lens on it. But that has confirmed what I suspected for over 15 years B4 SD or HD marketing was just that because this lens is superb, resolving well into 4K, with little or no CA. I am still on a waiting list for the 4K Fujinon but I am most likely going to go DZO Pictor zoom full sensor route now, though I will miss servo zoom, 16x zoom + doubler and macro in one lens.

I have found the UBG2 to have very good sensitivity even with the light robbing B4 mount, mainly because of dual gain. The DR and resolution seem to me more than adequate and the flexibility of codecs very useful. I have yet to see any FPN too. I can compare this camera directly to the the FS7s and FX9s currently being used for both studio and VT inserts on the current TV series I am working on and in my, perhaps controversial opinion, it produces much nicer colour, sharper pictures than both. In my defence I can say I intimately work with rushes from those cameras as the online/grading editor and in the interests of fairness, they are being used with baked in non-log rec.709 only. I can say with a high degree of certainty it has a better constructed, more professional, body than both and costs a good deal less.

Ultimately and I have said this before, you can easily spend more fully rigging up a 6K pro for cine work than a UBG2 costs out of the box, even with the optional VF (which is superb). It comes with, included in the price, full shoulder mount kit, B4 and EF mounts and IDX V-plate battery adaptor. It has dual gain and Gen 5, identical usb 3.2, to the 12K and I would speculate (though it is only that) the processing cpu is both larger, than the 6K Pro and newer than the UMPG2 (my only inkling for this is its one trick over the P6K sensor -150fps slo mo in Braw HD). For those of you unused to the Ursa body, the pictures do not do justice to the solid all metal quality construction too. If you want to do pure cine work and your budget can stretch then I personally would go for the 12K currently, another amazing value camera, but if your budget can't and/or you need the flexibility then the UBG2 should not be overlooked, even for just film work.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 2:02 pm

Steve and Will, thank you for your thoughts on the UMB vs UMP. I'm predominantly using the UMP for narrative work however it is now giving me a second look at the UMB just for the capabilities that you both have pointed out. I'm not sure how accepting is a broadcast camera on a film set but you're absolutely right Steve that BMD should have marketed this better and remove the stigma on the UMB for film use. The 12K is awesome but many of my projects, if not all, does not even go beyond 4K. The UMP 4.6K and the P6K has worked suitably well for me, with the exception that the UMP is darn poor for low light use and some FPN as mentioned. The 120 HFR on the UMP is something I do need at times. It might be a good idea to sell the P6K and upgrade to the UMB since they share a few similar components. Something to think about since no new cameras from BMD has been announced.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 3:12 pm

Ellory Yu wrote: I'm not sure how accepting is a broadcast camera on a film set but you're absolutely right Steve that BMD should have marketed this better and remove the stigma on the UMB for film use.


A (presumably) easy fix would be to add a firmware update that provides the ability to choose between ISO and gain rather than only gain. For those of us used to cinema cameras, it can slow you down if you encounter gain controls where you expect ISO. It's a simple conversion, but I have the same issue when I try to use hybrid cameras that only have shutter speed instead of shutter angle settings. It's hardly a dealbreaker, but it's an inconvenience and I'd much rather have the settings I'm used to, immediately to hand, so I don't have to think about it in the heat of the moment.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 3:23 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:So I guess nothing sandwich when it comes to a new camera this year?

Perhaps they are moving away from NAB-timed announcements?

While I don't think we need more resolution, I do think the market is kinda primed for a modular-friendly (i.e. RED-like) body, ideally with a metal chassis that can take a beating, with a FF sensor. I think sticking with plastics is one of the main reasons why many DP's don't consider Blackmagic cameras to be combat-worthy.

It is now evident that the pandemic and the parts shortage are the ones to be blamed. The problem is across the board, that is why there wasn't any new camera announcements from the big players (Panasonic, JVC, Canon...), except for that Sony EFP/studio camera with global shutter. Many companies, like BMD, took this opportunity to showcase the products that were announced within the past three years but never shown in a large event.
Last edited by MelFeliciano on Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 3:58 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:I'm not sure how accepting is a broadcast camera on a film set but you're absolutely right Steve that BMD should have marketed this better and remove the stigma on the UMB for film use. The 12K is awesome but many of my projects, if not all, does not even go beyond 4K.


Though of course, with a PL mount or the EF mount and cine lenes, using the full 6K sensor, it would no longer be a 'broadcast' camera and there is certainly nothing to indicate on the body that - it is virtually identical to the UMPG2 externally ;) I would add also Ellory, that since you're used to the P6K, that 6K is quite a sweet spot for oversampling for 4K (I too have no need for anything greater), in that it is not too heavy on cards or post and I have seen some nice results from the P6K used that way. My point about the 12K is it seems clear to me that the sensor there's main benefit is in colour resolution fidelity, rather than huge rez per se., which looks gorgeous to me, but JB would know better.

Brad Hurley wrote:A (presumably) easy fix would be to add a firmware update that provides the ability to choose between ISO and gain rather than only gain. For those of us used to cinema cameras, it can slow you down if you encounter gain controls where you expect ISO.


The dual gain is -12db to +36db and if you bear in mind that 0db is 400 iso and +18db is 3200 iso, and work backwards and forwards from there, it is identical to the P6K/pro. Broadcast doesn't traditionally work in 'iso' but yes it would be a welcome firmware update and I can see this as a quite a significant reason some would not consider it suitable for film work.

My case use requirements are different than most of you. I intend to film authored and scripted arts/history documentaries as well as some corporate work and when I was involved in this kind of content before, I was used to shooting it on high quality ENG cameras. This kind of production often involves a lot of the techniques far closer to the craft of fiction filming than run and gun type docos but it isn't high end drama. I am comfortable with the flexibility and size of these types of cameras and the quality of images achievable with this 2nd generation UB convinced me, this was the product for me.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 5:43 pm

dondidnod wrote:
dondidnod wrote:NABShow Daily, April 24.

https://issuu.com/futurepublishing/docs ... zQ3NzcxMDk


NABShow Daily, April 25

https://issuu.com/futurepublishing/docs ... d=31790704

NABShow Daily, April 26
https://issuu.com/futurepublishing/docs ... d=31790704

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 6:47 pm

THANX for your "daily" service !
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rick.lang

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 7:16 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:Though of course, with a PL mount or the EF mount and cine lenes, using the full 6K sensor, it would no longer be a 'broadcast' camera... I intend to film authored and scripted arts/history documentaries… the quality of images achievable with this 2nd generation UB convinced me, this was the product for me.


I think you’ve made an excellent choice in the Broadcast G2 with the B4 mount and the B4 zoom with an attractive option of adding the PL mount and using a new zoom. In part because so many people agree with you about the image virtues of the Dual ISO sensor in the Broadcast G2 (and the BMPCC6K/Pro), you’re tempting me to move to the Broadcast G2. I’m still happy with the original UM4.6K shooting CinemaDNG with my Fujinon 20x7.8BRM zoom. If my old camera would just have a catastrophic failure, I’d go with the Broadcast G2 as the best replacement.

So let me tempt you to stay the course with your B4 zoom order. The Fujinon zooms perform so well and give you so much flexibility that would certainly suit art history documentaries. I have primarily used mine for theatrical performances, weddings, music concerts, and a variety of events. Think twice before giving up that flexibility and suitability to your needs.

When I don’t need that and perhaps when mobility and higher resolution are important, I have the BMPCC4K 7.3 Dual ISO, with PL primes and limited zoom.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 8:01 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:I would add also Ellory, that since you're used to the P6K, that 6K is quite a sweet spot for oversampling for 4K (I too have no need for anything greater), in that it is not too heavy on cards or post and I have seen some nice results from the P6K used that way.

I agree. That's my experience with the P6K as well. The UMB has the controls and the filters (like the P6K Pro) and that's tempting to upgrade. I agree with Brad that a nice firmware update to it is to provide a switch for ENG and FILM mode, were for example if on ENG it show Gain (dB) and on FILM mode it works as ISO, and etc.

Brad Hurley wrote:A (presumably) easy fix would be to add a firmware update that provides the ability to choose between ISO and gain rather than only gain. For those of us used to cinema cameras, it can slow you down if you encounter gain controls where you expect ISO. It's a simple conversion, but I have the same issue when I try to use hybrid cameras that only have shutter speed instead of shutter angle settings. It's hardly a dealbreaker, but it's an inconvenience and I'd much rather have the settings I'm used to, immediately to hand, so I don't have to think about it in the heat of the moment.


+1. If using the UMB with other cine cams on set, it's much easier for muscle memory to be what we're used to. I'll keep my eye peel on the firmware updates and might just pull the plug if this happens. BTW, Proress 4444 would be nice too.
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 8:12 pm

rick.lang wrote:So let me tempt you to stay the course with your B4 zoom order. The Fujinon zooms perform so well and give you so much flexibility that would certainly suit art history documentaries. I have primarily used mine for theatrical performances, weddings, music concerts, and a variety of events. Think twice before giving up that flexibility and suitability to your needs.


Thanks Rick, I'm sorely torn and you make a lot of sense. The UBG2 as is has plenty of rez and the old SD J16 shows that a newer higher resolution lens can only improve what is a fine image now. Plus the shere flexibility of B4 lenses will be hard to beat.
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rick.lang

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Apr 26, 2022 9:09 pm

Me too, Ellory. The camera would be an easier sell if it had two modes depending upon the mount: user selectable ‘Broadcast’ or ‘Cinema.’ And sell better if it included all ProRes flavours. Still, as is, excellent value, so neither is a showstopper for me.
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WahWay

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Apr 27, 2022 5:26 am

Don't forget the poor rolling shutter on the P6k and likely UMB G2.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Apr 27, 2022 8:04 am

Kim Janson wrote:That said, the B4 optical adaptation on the URSA Broadcast G2 is very good based on my initial tests. Even old SD lens looks good, even at f1.8 and wide angle not terrible as with some other adapter.


I agree Kim, that's my experience too
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IMG_20220325_212430.jpg (319.03 KiB) Viewed 7008 times
WahWay wrote:Don't forget the poor rolling shutter on the P6k and likely UMB G2.


The rolling shutter isn't really 'poor' and certainly not in Broadcast 4K, at least for me, but yes there has to be some compromise for the $2-3$K pricing.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostThu Apr 28, 2022 12:06 am

Just to add to feature requests of the new box camera that everyone wants. OLPF please. I'm sick and tired of moiré in my footage, something I never get with my Alexa and never got on my old Komodo. Why oh why can we not get an OLPF in Blackmagic cameras? I know that the OLPF will reduce sharpness a tad, and that's fine. Some folks will have a fit if they can't have super sharp electronic video looking image. Why not offer a camera version that comes with an OLPF and one without then. I know I can buy the RAWLITE, but I have to either install it myself or take it somewhere. I'd rather have the same people that make the camera design an OLPF with it.

Or maybe Blackmagic can use some of the AI in Resolve to fix this with a filter.

Blackmagic are not alone, Sony FX6 has bad moiré and so does A7SIII, FX3 and even new A7IV. Moiré sucks big time!!!!! Let's rid the planet from it once and for all. If I were President I would sign a No Moiré executive order. :lol:
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Ellory Yu

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostThu Apr 28, 2022 12:56 am

WahWay wrote:Don't forget the poor rolling shutter on the P6k and likely UMB G2.

Good point. Another improvement to be had on the UMB if it is to also be in film mode.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostThu Apr 28, 2022 5:45 am

Will Vazquez wrote:Blackmagic are not alone, Sony FX6 has bad moiré and so does A7SIII, FX3 and even new A7IV. Moiré sucks big time!!!!! Let's rid the planet from it once and for all. If I were President I would sign a No Moiré executive order.


I agree with Will again. Moiré and aliasing is far more of a concern these days than rolling shutter, which compared to the Canon 5D MKII days is not a huge problem on most cameras. There is enough footage out there, in any case, of the P6K to judge for yourselves, whether this is a deal breaker or not. There are very few global shutter digital cameras out there, not even Alexas (though read out is very fast), because it is difficult and expensive to have both high DR and a global, we must take our hat off at least in this respect to the Red Komodo.

Whipping a camera back and forth in a jello haze is not particularly realistic and whilst I would have no problem shooting some sport with the UBG2, even in Super 35, I can only think of high end sport's broadcasters baulking at it for serious replacement to high end 3 chip cameras. That has to be accepted, for its price point.

There is however really no excuse for aliasing, other than the cost, difficulty to work across various common crops reliably and the necessary impact it has on resolution in marketing, for YT comparisons (should the manufacturer be minded to fit a properly implemented OLPF). It is still very difficult, if not sometimes impossible to reliably remove it in post. I know there is Rawlite but I'm still not sure how it can work consistently well across all crop modes, necessary in perhaps a camera like the UBG2.

+1 for improved sensor read-out though, if possible, Prores 444 and iso + ability to record colour bars in camera, for the UBG2.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostThu Apr 28, 2022 4:32 pm

John Brawley wrote:AVIDs shared media system is why they dominate in high end. When you need multiple edit systems working on the same material. Think about episodic TV where you have assistants syncing sound, assembly editors cutting dailies, editors cutting scenes, assistants taking shots from previous episodes for recaps, assistants complying VFX pulls, promos cutting teasers.


You beat me to it...

I don't think that either Adobe or Apple have figured that part out. I do think that BMD has, though. Given BMD's history, I think it's likely that the new NAS hardware is a first foray, and a shot across the Isis bow...

We'll probably be seeing post houses telling BMD, "We like the idea, but it doesn't do <x>, <y>, and <z> so we aren't adopting it."

BMD: "Hold my beer."

Nothing shares those and makes it simpler to organise than AVID. And they’ve been doing it for years. Cloud storage doesn’t change how those apps work with shared timelines and bins like that. They used to call it UNITY, but I’m not sure if that’s what it’s called today.


Though I agree, I can imagine Black Magic actually accomplishing an Isis-alike. Its existing collaboration feature set is already more advanced than Avid's (or anyone else, including Jira's, for that matter), but the shared media side is at a fledgling stage... but this is Black Magic. I doubt that Grant would shy away from another opportunity to sell more hardware to converted Avid users. It will be tough to do, but when has that stopped BMD in the past? :)

But the point made above is good. Not the most high end but the most users is just fine.


That certainly shows in the BMD approach to making cameras, though I still think even most BMD fans underestimate their own cameras :lol:
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WahWay

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostThu Apr 28, 2022 6:01 pm

="Steve Fishwick"

The rolling shutter isn't really 'poor' and certainly not in Broadcast 4K, at least for me, but yes there has to be some compromise for the $2-3$K pricing.


It poor especially when shoot at 6k full sensor. The Pocket 6k form factor is a contradiction with the poor rolling shutter. Perhaps for broadcasting with limited pans, on a tripod, its not an issue.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostFri Apr 29, 2022 6:46 am

Uhm to be with you I think they will announce
No I think they will release
No I think they will sell …
No…
I Go out from home, do some walk (300 meters) sit on a rock and put my feet in the sea, and wait …
until Nab start and I can see some real announcements and not rumours
I hope this year is a time to restart with or without new products, that I just have are good for my work, if they release a new toy and can buy it, we’ll i will buy it (I’m a gear addicted guy), if not … amen
For all that can go to Nab enjoy if it, this year to me is too expansive to go to Nab from Italy.


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Nathan_H

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostSat Apr 30, 2022 8:45 am

Shortage of electronic component, pandemic still happening, lockdown in china.
I'm not surprised at all that they've gone all on software and they have no cinema camera to show.

They wouldn't be able to deliver it anyway.

Sony FX6 is in shortage for month now here in France, just to give you an indication and we're talking about SONY !
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Adam Langdon

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostSat May 14, 2022 10:30 pm

NEW prediction for New Gear….

A dedicated cinema camera that will be bigger than the Ursa Mini body, possibly LF, with all the professional ports/features of an Arri
Ursa Mini 12k +Rawlite - Cinema Camera 6k - SLR Magic APO Microprimes PL/EF - Tamron 24-70mm f2.8 G2 - Aputure Lighting
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timbutt2

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostSun May 15, 2022 12:44 am

Adam Langdon wrote:NEW prediction for New Gear….

A dedicated cinema camera that will be bigger than the Ursa Mini body, possibly LF, with all the professional ports/features of an Arri
So resurrection of the URSA body to a degree, Butt with improvements. An URSA LF. I think I predicted that in the past.


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Ellory Yu

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostSun May 15, 2022 5:38 am

If it is as heavy as the URSA, nah.
I live through years with that thing and it’s too heavy. It was glorious during those times with that global shutter however.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostSun May 15, 2022 11:14 am

I don't think LF will happen from BMD for a long time, if ever. The new camera from Arri that will be introduced later this month is a S35 4K Camera. It's the first sensor that Arri announces since they debuted the ALEV III sensor in 2009 and they chose to make it S35.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostSun May 15, 2022 1:31 pm

Bmd work in mid low market, they choose like main mount the EF and m4/3 for the large amount of glass that you can choose, from low to high quality/price.
On ursa you can choose PL mount, but are you aware about how many people bought ursa with PL mount instead to EF? few guys, be cause PL lenses are expansive to buy or rent.

LF mean you should mount high quality lenses, a mount that are not so popular on indie people, and the main market of bmd is indie market.
I know there is also high end production that use also ursa and other bmd cameras, but a very small fraction against the common bmd market.
see on forum, reddit and more how many people try to adapt cheap ef-s lenses to ursa 12k... they bought a great camera but want to save money on every other things (worst choise on lenses).
i hope bmd concentrate their effort on wwwrgb sensor, on color science, on better dr, not on large format or this trend...
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ricardo marty

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon May 16, 2022 4:37 am

Maybe BMD should make a high-end camera with their color science and braw, just to continue the disruption.


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