Red is back on the litigation warpath

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Tim Kraemer

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Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu May 26, 2022 8:57 pm

Nobody must have internal camera RAW except for RED!

https://nikonrumors.com/2022/05/26/red- ... ents.aspx/

How did Blackmagic get around this patent baloney exactly?
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu May 26, 2022 10:28 pm

BRAW is not a true RAW and thus bypasses the RED patent
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu May 26, 2022 10:30 pm

Because BRAW isn't fully raw if I'm not mistaken.
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Tim Kraemer

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu May 26, 2022 11:29 pm

Mark Foster wrote:BRAW is not a true RAW and thus bypasses the RED patent


RED is not a "true" RAW either. Its compressed. I dont know of anybody that does an uncompressed RAW. If they did, they would avoid the RED patent.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu May 26, 2022 11:32 pm

It's compressed but unlike BRAW it's not debayered.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 1:15 am

Mainly BRAW handles the debayer differently. That’s how Blackmagic got around the RED Patent Troll.

Honestly, the RED Patent is so stupid because it’s very broad and is used as a way to eliminate competition when the only way to do compressed raw is going to hit upon some of those broad points in the patent. One of those is any resolution over 2K. Seriously!

RED needs to let go of so of those broad Patent BS points. Otherwise, I hope everyone just comes out with better cameras with better RAW compression options that go around the RED patent and make people choose their cameras over RED.

Can’t wait for the ARRI Alexa 35 with ARRIRAW HDE 4.6K. Should make RED squirm.


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Tim Kraemer

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 1:52 am

timbutt2 wrote:
Can’t wait for the ARRI Alexa 35 with ARRIRAW HDE 4.6K. Should make RED squirm.


And they probably dont have patent problems because they dont compress anything. 10 years ago this would have been impossible, but now the flash interfaces are so fast that huge data rates are not out of reach.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 2:42 am

I’m wondering if it’s not the ProRes RAW part of this.

Not a single camera to date has done it internally and those that have announced it have then not ever delivered.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 2:45 am

Tim Kraemer wrote:
Mark Foster wrote:BRAW is not a true RAW and thus bypasses the RED patent


RED is not a "true" RAW either. Its compressed. I dont know of anybody that does an uncompressed RAW. If they did, they would avoid the RED patent.


Arri does uncompressed RAW using DNG as does other specialist cameras like the 9x7 achtel

Red have sued everyone that tries this. Apple didn’t win. Sony didn’t win. Nikon won’t win. Or they’ll pay.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 2:51 am

John Brawley wrote:
Tim Kraemer wrote:
Mark Foster wrote:BRAW is not a true RAW and thus bypasses the RED patent


RED is not a "true" RAW either. Its compressed. I dont know of anybody that does an uncompressed RAW. If they did, they would avoid the RED patent.


Arri does uncompressed RAW using DNG as does other specialist cameras like the 9x7 achtel

Red have sued everyone that tries this. Apple didn’t win. Sony didn’t win. Nikon won’t win. Or they’ll pay.

JB


Does Arri pay RED for this? Also, if DNG is uncompressed, how does that infringe on the RED patent?
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Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 3:24 am

Tim Kraemer wrote:... I dont know of anybody that does an uncompressed RAW. If they did, they would avoid the RED patent.


BMD URSA Mini 4.6K 4.8 still offers CinemaDNG Uncompressed, 3:1, 4:1.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 3:33 am

John Brawley wrote:Red have sued everyone that tries this. Apple didn’t win. Sony didn’t win. Nikon won’t win. Or they’ll pay.
JB


Nikon NASA F4 Electronic Still Camera in 1987 was one of the first digital cameras. Even though RED filed for RAW patent in 2007, there are tons of other imaging patents as to how sensors process data, etc, and Nikon owns a bunch of patents. RED may be infringing on Nikon patents for even basic image acquisition and processing. Nikon will prevail. I'm sure of it. Nikon challenged RED to f*ck around and find out.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 9:11 am

John Brawley wrote:
Tim Kraemer wrote:
Mark Foster wrote:BRAW is not a true RAW and thus bypasses the RED patent


RED is not a "true" RAW either. Its compressed. I dont know of anybody that does an uncompressed RAW. If they did, they would avoid the RED patent.


Arri does uncompressed RAW using DNG as does other specialist cameras like the 9x7 achtel

Red have sued everyone that tries this. Apple didn’t win. Sony didn’t win. Nikon won’t win. Or they’ll pay.

JB


My bet is that Apple did challenge the RED patent because they wanted to use ProResRAW in their iPhones, but couldn’t. So now they had to use huge ProRes files instead.

Just imagine if someone could have had got a trivial patent on storing compressed video internally in cameras in the past - we would have had no consumer video camera market at all - except for the one company.

It’s like having a patent on stairs inside a building.
Last edited by Robert Niessner on Fri May 27, 2022 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 9:12 am

A patent from 1987 would have been valid for 17 years from the date issued, lasting until 2004 or so, so that one won't help much now.

Patents filed since 1995 are valid for 20 years from the date filed, so if RED filed for their patent in 2007, it is set to expire in 2027. Five more years of this garbage unless Nikon has an ace up their sleeves.

I was thinking of buying a RED camera at one time. Two reasons why I probably never will now: this is a big one. Those ugly skulls they started painting on them are the other.
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Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 2:16 pm

The patent office has upheld RED’s ludicrous patent before as not honoring the patent would likely reveal the idiocy in the office in the first place. I don’t know if any higher power can invalidate the patent, but I’m sure Nikon will find out.

Robert, I suppose there was a patent in roughly 5000 BCE for stairs inside a building with the advent of garden patios on the roof of one’s abode. I’ll have to look at some 7,000 year old Architectural Digest magazines to find it! There are just so many patents for similar innovations however so obvious that we take them for granted now.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 2:32 pm

rick.lang wrote:The patent office has upheld RED’s ludicrous patent before as not honoring the patent would likely reveal the idiocy in the office in the first place.


Can we just put this on a sign in front of the patent office?
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 2:47 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Just imagine if someone could have had got a trivial patent on storing compressed video internally in cameras in the past - we would have had no consumer video camera market at all - except for the one company.


Large companies tend to take the tech anyway and start selling it no matter who invented it. So I suppose RED are at least protecting their interests relative to a much larger company like Apple. Their yearly revenue must be a tiny fraction of Apple's. The market is so unscrupulous that I imagine someone would go after them had they not patented it. Though it seems unfair for them to pursue others.

William Wolowitz had invented both the 'credit card' as we know it and an erasing typewriter ribbon and had both stolen by large companies. It seems most don't view RED as the 'inventor' of anything here.

"Mr. Wolowitz held patents in the field of plastic credit cards, having thought of using plastic cards with raised letters and a machine that could transfer these letters to credit forms, along with the price of the goods purchased."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 4f35cd2e4/
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 5:37 pm

Will Vazquez wrote:
John Brawley wrote:Red have sued everyone that tries this. Apple didn’t win. Sony didn’t win. Nikon won’t win. Or they’ll pay.
JB


Nikon NASA F4 Electronic Still Camera in 1987 was one of the first digital cameras. Even though RED filed for RAW patent in 2007, there are tons of other imaging patents as to how sensors process data, etc, and Nikon owns a bunch of patents. RED may be infringing on Nikon patents for even basic image acquisition and processing. Nikon will prevail. I'm sure of it. Nikon challenged RED to f*ck around and find out.



I don’t think it will come down on Nikons side.

More likely is that they will settle, and pay RED because they need the features. It’s interesting (maybe even more disruptive?) because RED have seemingly chose to wait till shipping to start litigation.

They may have also sent them a warning (which is likely what stopped others from releaseingn announced features) and maybe Nikon thought this was a better way to settle the argument.



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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 5:39 pm

Tim Kraemer wrote:
Does Arri pay RED for this? Also, if DNG is uncompressed, how does that infringe on the RED patent?


They do not pay RED.

Neither do DJI or Achtel (All shooting uncompressed DNG)

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 6:55 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Tim Kraemer wrote:
Does Arri pay RED for this? Also, if DNG is uncompressed, how does that infringe on the RED patent?


They do not pay RED.

Neither do DJI or Achtel (All shooting uncompressed DNG)

JB


Seeing as how the Z9 TICO RAW data rate tops out at the 6 gigabit per second range, they ought to do Cinema DNG uncompressed at 4k and lower resolutions.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 7:14 pm

Tim Kraemer wrote:
Seeing as how the Z9 TICO RAW data rate tops out at the 6 gigabit per second range, they ought to do Cinema DNG uncompressed at 4k and lower resolutions.


DNG is a very unwieldily format. It likes a lot of brute horsepower and is not an efficient codec. It sucks to work with.

You can't just make it "RAW @ 4K" Because that would mean a window of the sensor. Only with BMD's 12k sensor can they do multi resolutions of the same sensor size.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 8:40 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Tim Kraemer wrote:
Seeing as how the Z9 TICO RAW data rate tops out at the 6 gigabit per second range, they ought to do Cinema DNG uncompressed at 4k and lower resolutions.


DNG is a very unwieldily format. It likes a lot of brute horsepower and is not an efficient codec. It sucks to work with.

You can't just make it "RAW @ 4K" Because that would mean a window of the sensor. Only with BMD's 12k sensor can they do multi resolutions of the same sensor size.

JB


I guess everyone is going to have to do their own version of BRAW, unless Blackmagic wants to help them all out.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 9:20 pm

Tim Kraemer wrote:I guess everyone is going to have to do their own version of BRAW, unless Blackmagic wants to help them all out.



I think BMD have already made it available to anyone that want's to use it.

However there's still a substantial development cost for anyone (like say Nikon) because they have to take the BMD BRAW code and turn it into hardware...a processor inside a camera that does this job.

BMD are FPGA based and most of these companies use ASIC style processors, so they have to be coded from scratch and this is quite an expensive and lengthy process. I'm sure this is why we haven't seen it happen...yet...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-pro ... gate_array

vs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicati ... ed_circuit

Basically FPGA are typically more versatile, take less time to develop for and are totally re-programable.

ASIC are lower cost per unit, less power consumption, but take much longer to develop for.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri May 27, 2022 11:31 pm

Will Vazquez wrote:
John Brawley wrote:Red have sued everyone that tries this. Apple didn’t win. Sony didn’t win. Nikon won’t win. Or they’ll pay.
JB


Nikon NASA F4 Electronic Still Camera in 1987 was one of the first digital cameras. Even though RED filed for RAW patent in 2007, there are tons of other imaging patents as to how sensors process data, etc, and Nikon owns a bunch of patents. RED may be infringing on Nikon patents for even basic image acquisition and processing. Nikon will prevail. I'm sure of it. Nikon challenged RED to f*ck around and find out.


Actually that camera was a Kodak/Nikon joint project, Kodak provided the sensors and data processing was a joint venture, I believe. This camera was later developed into a SLR based on the Nikon F series, with the Kodak image sensor and processor stuck in an oversized motor drive enclosure under the camera, doubling its height. I hauled one of these cameras around in the 1990s, a bit awkward and heavy, but you could get images in the wire faster than any scanning system in use then. I could take a news shot and have it on the wire is less that an hour. Sounds slow now, but it was fast then!
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat May 28, 2022 12:20 am

There are a dozen cameras that can output Braw. Internal Braw doesn’t sell Video Assists, it’s that simple.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat May 28, 2022 4:27 pm

John Brawley wrote:DNG is a very unwieldily format. It likes a lot of brute horsepower and is not an efficient codec. It sucks to work with.


I'll take it if there is no other 12-Bit option. I haven't tried the Kinefinity Edge 6K, but they have seemed to go with DNG too after the RED lawsuit and still include ProRes 4444 XQ. ProRes RAW HQ would have compressed to lower 12 bit file sizes?

RED vs Kinefinity
https://portal.unifiedpatents.com/litig ... 1-cv-00041

They are naming N-RAW in the new lawsuit;
"Nikon instructs, teaches, aids, and/or encourages others to use, test, assemble, distribute, repair, or otherwise handle the accused products. For example, it directs users of its Z9 cameras to download Z9-related manuals from Nikon’s Download Center, then teaches them how to record a motion video in the N-RAW "

The patent with the most action on it, Sony, Nokia, and Kinefinity filings;

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9245314B2/en
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat May 28, 2022 4:58 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:I'll take it if there is no other 12-Bit option.



It's 16 bit lin typically. When BMD was doing DNG it was anyway. Arri are 12 bit LOG. DNG by the way is really just a TIFF file with some metadata. cDNG is the same file with timecode and audio.

DNG is totally horrible as a workflow. You might take it but no one else does. And the market has spoken on that. Most long form shows shoot some form of compression, RAW or encoded.

It has a ceiling that you're already up against when shooting 4K.

The biggest issue though is imagine a 12K sensor that records uncompressed. Imagine what that data rate is. Imagine what kind of media would even work in that scenario. 80MP uncompressed at 60 FPS? Someone do the maths per second on that....

It's totally impractical and exceeds even todays current media and processing.

You can see that about 4-5 years ago, when DNG got dropped is also when they started working on larger than 6K sensors. And the future is only more K's.

And before you say you don't need any more than 4K, there are other advantages to larger than delivery resolution acquisition.

BMD had to do compression to deal with higher resolution sensors that offer other advantages (like no cropping at different resolutions) and to optimise playback on even modest computers.

I'm shooting a series now for Apple TV+. The budget is more than $120 million. We don't shoot uncompressed. We don't even shoot RAW. We shoot ProRes 444. Because three, sometimes four cameras shooting two hours each a day in footage quickly swamps a production. Editorial is in LA. We are shooting in Miami. How do you push 6 hours of uncompressed DNG over even a high speed connection each night?

This "purist" idea of uncompressed really is only practical in a very small set of shooting circumstances. If Apple can't make it work, most BMD customers don't want that frustration either. The massive success of the pocket cinema cameras is down to BRAW.

By the way I use the 12K alongside the Alexa Mini LF ProRes 444 files. They are about the same data rate per min.

1TB = 1 hour of footage.


Ryan Earl wrote:I haven't tried the Kinefinity Edge 6K, but they have seemed to go with DNG too after the RED lawsuit and still include ProRes 4444 XQ. ProRes RAW HQ would have compressed to lower 12 bit file sizes?


As mentioned, DNG is an open source codec, with many frustrating bottlenecks. If that works for you then great. It doesn't work at all for most, especially in the typical BMD user scenario.

ProRes offers many flavours and is very robust and well proven. ProRes RAW can't be used internally on any camera.


Ryan Earl wrote:
They are naming N-RAW in the new lawsuit;
"Nikon instructs, teaches, aids, and/or encourages others to use, test, assemble, distribute, repair, or otherwise handle the accused products. For example, it directs users of its Z9 cameras to download Z9-related manuals from Nikon’s Download Center, then teaches them how to record a motion video in the N-RAW "


I hadn't seen that.

I'm assuming that they would also have issue with ProRes RAW as well, seeing as Apple have already tested the patent and not been able to get past it. So the courts have ruled against ProRes RAW and yet here it is in a camera. Therefore it's already a problem on top of a "new" raw video codec like N-RAW.

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Uli Plank

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat May 28, 2022 5:53 pm

Second that notion about uncompressed recording.

Why is nearly all footage in Arri's cameras recorded in ProRes? A single frame from the Arri 6.5K (the ARX format) has 30.5 MB and you can only play it from a Thunderbolt SSD or a fast RAID.

And look at Red, who were preaching wavelet for all those years. Now they switched to DCI in the Komodo and the Raptor. Why? Try to work with Helium 8K footage on any laptop.

P.S. When will someone get a patent on breathing?
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat May 28, 2022 7:18 pm

Uli Plank wrote: Now they switched to DCI in the Komodo and the Raptor.



You mean DCT I think, which is what ProRes and BRAW use but yes I know what you mean.

Uli Plank wrote:
Why? Try to work with Helium 8K footage on any laptop.

P.S. When will someone get a patent on breathing?


And yet you can do 12k on a 2017 laptop no problem.

You're totally right. As the resolution goes up, wavelet becomes hard and harder to do...

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat May 28, 2022 7:25 pm

Just in case anyone had any doubts but that our patent systems desperately needs to be reformed:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6368227
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6360693
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6612440B1



Wondering if this one might be useful as a movie prop? Death by trumpet anyone?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4247283A
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat May 28, 2022 8:49 pm

Yeah, that was a typo.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat May 28, 2022 11:32 pm

John Brawley wrote: We are shooting in Miami. How do you push 6 hours of uncompressed DNG over even a high speed connection each night?

This "purist" idea of uncompressed really is only practical in a very small set of shooting circumstances. If Apple can't make it work, most BMD customers don't want that frustration either. The massive success of the pocket cinema cameras is down to BRAW.

By the way I use the 12K alongside the Alexa Mini LF ProRes 444 files. They are about the same data rate per min.

1TB = 1 hour of footage.


My point is that the cameras that are typically being shot down legally by RED have some kind of 10bit log internally or you would need to capture raw externally. So I'll take the lossless DNG capture then copy to 12 Bit Log when I'm sending the data across to a client or edit.

Calling me an uncompressed DNG aficionado or purist would be a mischaracterization here since I'm mainly using BRAW. If I'm using a DNG camera too, even the URSA 4.6K in DNG , I'll copy off the cards to DNxHR 444 or ProRes by importing all of the clips to an ACES project and set ARRI, RED or even BMD GEN 5 as the output transform to copy out to a drive or server.

To use your 1TB per hour analogy, if I can get about 54 minutes of 4K DNG from a camera then pass that to a server as DNxHR 444 it ends up 60% of the original size and ready for LUT or power grade.

So if you're sending about 6TB a night I'd only be sending about 3.4TB in comparison.

Then also using the 12K URSA the same day shooting BRAW I'd still have to copy out to ProRes anyway if the client is editing in Final Cut.

So in this way the process is seamless, at least for me, and the client will have both the same color space and gamma and footage can be matched with minimal effort regardless of the capture codec.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat May 28, 2022 11:40 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:Calling me an uncompressed DNG aficionado or purist would be a mischaracterization here since I'm mainly using BRAW. If I'm using a DNG camera too, even the URSA 4.6K in DNG , I'll copy off the cards to DNxHR 444 or ProRes by importing all of the clips to an ACES project and set ARRI, RED or even BMD GEN 5 as the output transform to copy out to a drive or server.

To use your 1TB per hour analogy, if I can get about 54 minutes of 4K DNG from a camera then pass that to a server as DNxHR 444 it ends up 60% of the original size and ready for LUT or power grade.

So if you're sending about 6TB a night I'd only be sending about 3.4TB in comparison.


Except you have to transcode to DNX which takes extra time.

BRAW has LUT built in and can edit right away (in AVID)

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timbutt2

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat May 28, 2022 11:57 pm

Question: why are you sending RAW overnight via web to LA and not Proxies? Wouldn’t the proxies make the most logical upload while using physical drives shipped make the most sense for the RAW files?

Imagining even 1 Gb/s internet speed with upload being equal to the download that would mean about 128 MB/s uploaded. If my math is solid that means it would take about 136.533 minutes to upload 1 TB. That’s 2 hours and 16.5 minutes per TB for optimum upload speed. You don’t often find that 1 Gb/s upload speed from service providers. Some are starting to offer it, but it’s tough to come by in all regions. Why? Because you can’t get those device providers consistently everywhere due to the need for them to wire the area.

Perfect example, I just moved from an area that had Frontier and getting 200 Mb/s down and up. Now I’m in an area where the best I get is Spectrum who will offer 1 Gb/s down, but only 35 Mb/s up. Why? Well, Spectrum stinks to high heaven. And, sadly Frontier isn’t in my area. They’re just coming to it, and I’m hoping I can switch. But it’s the example of not having optimum internet availability.

So I again question needing to upload such massive files for raw when you can simply upload lower quality proxies that can be worked with while the raw ships via curriers.


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Ryan Earl

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 1:50 am

John Brawley wrote:Except you have to transcode to DNX which takes extra time.

BRAW has LUT built in and can edit right away (in AVID)


You're right and I agree with your points above.

In my case, they both have to be copied from the capture cards and placed onto a drive or server. Transcoding DNG to DNxHR is grouped into the copy 'step' and the original lossless is thrown away. I just clone BRAW as-is to the new drive.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 2:12 am

Ryan Earl wrote:
John Brawley wrote:Except you have to transcode to DNX which takes extra time.

BRAW has LUT built in and can edit right away (in AVID)


You're right and I agree with your points above.

In my case, they both have to be copied from the capture cards and placed onto a drive or server. Transcoding DNG to DNxHR is grouped into the copy 'step' and the original lossless is thrown away. I just clone BRAW as-is to the new drive.

I never get rid of the source raw video if transcoding. Transcoding is only to a proxy format.

I'll be very curious however to get a Cloud Store device soon and set up the automatic proxy generator for auto uploads of proxies to the Cloud. I just haven't decided what makes the most sense. Although I'd try the Cloud Pod it seems the Cloud Store Mini might be the better choice.

As for BRAW having the LUT built in and being able to edit right away: totally a win! That's why I love shooting with it. But I love editing it in Resolve more because of Resolve Color Management and setting my preset so that the BRAW settings are already set so that it works with RCM. The only thing is that I have Gen 5 selected for use with my UMPG2 so it automatically converts from Gen 4 to Gen 5 without me having to manually change it every time.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 3:26 am

John Brawley wrote:
You mean DCT I think, which is what ProRes and BRAW use but yes I know what you mean.

JB


Wow, now I think I finally know why footage from new RED DSMC3 cameras like Komodo and Raptor looks muddy and with weird color fringing, it must be the DCT compression. I never been a huge fan of RED images, but thought that RED Helium footage looked nice and really loved RED Monstro footage. RED footage used to have a nice smooth look to it. I owned the Komodo for 8 months and sold it because aside from being really clunky to use, I never liked the footage, preferring my Pocket 6K to it always. I would zoom into the Komodo footage and would notice weird fringing and pronounce green/magenta, and when I shot side by side with the Pocket 6K to test it, the Pocket 6K didn't have the fringing, so it's not the lens. I thought it could be the way the sensor was designed, or the filter stack in front of it. But now I really think it's the new DCT compression, or RED's implementation of it. Whatever Blackmagic is doing with their flavor if DCT in BRAW, it is light years ahead of RED's DCT in image fidelity.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 3:42 am

timbutt2 wrote:Question: why are you sending RAW overnight via web to LA and not Proxies? Wouldn’t the proxies make the most logical upload while using physical drives shipped make the most sense for the RAW files?

Imagining even 1 Gb/s internet speed with upload being equal to the download that would mean about 128 MB/s uploaded. If my math is solid that means it would take about 136.533 minutes to upload 1 TB. That’s 2 hours and 16.5 minutes per TB for optimum upload speed. You don’t often find that 1 Gb/s upload speed from service providers. Some are starting to offer it, but it’s tough to come by in all regions. Why? Because you can’t get those device providers consistently everywhere due to the need for them to wire the area.

Perfect example, I just moved from an area that had Frontier and getting 200 Mb/s down and up. Now I’m in an area where the best I get is Spectrum who will offer 1 Gb/s down, but only 35 Mb/s up. Why? Well, Spectrum stinks to high heaven. And, sadly Frontier isn’t in my area. They’re just coming to it, and I’m hoping I can switch. But it’s the example of not having optimum internet availability.

So I again question needing to upload such massive files for raw when you can simply upload lower quality proxies that can be worked with while the raw ships via curriers.



Scale Tim.

Security is also a big issue.

Typically we split the media at lunch time and end of day.

The cards are backed up on the camera truck first and then set aside. A clone of the backed up copies goes to a shuttle drive which is then sent to the production office. A person who's only job is to safeguard those drives does this one job.

That drive gets plugged into a custom built upload station. Not sure what the speed is on this show, but it's a giant connection. Bigger than what you can get from spectrum. I work all over the country and this its how most shows work. The editorial, dailies and post is all in LA. Not much is done locally other than basic data backup.

The drive get's cloned to a local site in LA, where editorial is. From there it's backed up again, and then it goes through the many many other processes concurrently while it goes to editorial. They make 264s with dailies timings and producers and studio people can watch dailies from early AM generally. These are distributed using systems that you've probably never heard of. Think Frame.io but again, custom systems.

They're also checking sync, making sure the shots that we say are there with the DPR's and the script supervisors notes are all what they should be, making sure we have no technical issues that we didn't already know about, make sure only the directors print takes get printed etc. There's about 25 people that touch the dailies from camera to watching....

After editorial have cross checked and certified that the media is secure, backed up in three seperate location and verified, we're allowed to the return the camera media back to circulation. Typically that's a 48 hour turnaround. The camera media is the 4th instance copy and is the final failsafe backup. So that means we have to carry enough media to shoot for 6 days because sometimes we have a holiday and sometimes we shoot a Saturday and they aren't back till Tuesday and sometimes we get four cameras on a day and sometimes we have two units so now it's six or seven cameras. You get the idea....

Scale. Huge scale that has to be fast and super super secure. Editors are cutting in LA by 9AM with stuff that we shot in Miami less than 12 hours earlier....and massive amounts of footage and it's more than one editor working on the SAME material remember, there are assistants doing assemblies, making playlists for producers to (for example) look at a certain new characters scenes. Promos are also typically accessing the SAME material and doing their own thing.

Scale. Massive amount of footage that many many people need to access ASAP at the same time.

JB
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timbutt2

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 3:56 am

John Brawley wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:Question: why are you sending RAW overnight via web to LA and not Proxies? Wouldn’t the proxies make the most logical upload while using physical drives shipped make the most sense for the RAW files?

Imagining even 1 Gb/s internet speed with upload being equal to the download that would mean about 128 MB/s uploaded. If my math is solid that means it would take about 136.533 minutes to upload 1 TB. That’s 2 hours and 16.5 minutes per TB for optimum upload speed. You don’t often find that 1 Gb/s upload speed from service providers. Some are starting to offer it, but it’s tough to come by in all regions. Why? Because you can’t get those device providers consistently everywhere due to the need for them to wire the area.

Perfect example, I just moved from an area that had Frontier and getting 200 Mb/s down and up. Now I’m in an area where the best I get is Spectrum who will offer 1 Gb/s down, but only 35 Mb/s up. Why? Well, Spectrum stinks to high heaven. And, sadly Frontier isn’t in my area. They’re just coming to it, and I’m hoping I can switch. But it’s the example of not having optimum internet availability.

So I again question needing to upload such massive files for raw when you can simply upload lower quality proxies that can be worked with while the raw ships via curriers.



Scale Tim.

Security is also a big issue.

Typically we split the media at lunch time and end of day.

The cards are backed up on the camera truck first and then set aside. A clone of the backed up copies goes to a shuttle drive which is then sent to the production office. A person who's only job is to safeguard those drives does this one job.

That drive gets plugged into a custom built upload station. Not sure what the speed is on this show, but it's a giant connection. Bigger than what you can get from spectrum. I work all over the country and this its how most shows work. The editorial, dailies and post is all in LA. Not much is done locally other than basic data backup.

The drive get's cloned to a local site in LA, where editorial is. From there it's backed up again, and then it goes through the many many other processes concurrently while it goes to editorial. They make 264s with dailies timings and producers and studio people can watch dailies from early AM generally. These are distributed using systems that you've probably never heard of. Think Frame.io but again, custom systems.

They're also checking sync, making sure the shots that we say are there with the DPR's and the script supervisors notes are all what they should be, making sure we have no technical issues that we didn't already know about, make sure only the directors print takes get printed etc. There's about 25 people that touch the dailies from camera to watching....

After editorial have cross checked and certified that the media is secure, backed up in three seperate location and verified, we're allowed to the return the camera media back to circulation. Typically that's a 48 hour turnaround. The camera media is the 4th instance copy and is the final failsafe backup. So that means we have to carry enough media to shoot for 6 days because sometimes we have a holiday and sometimes we shoot a Saturday and they aren't back till Tuesday and sometimes we get four cameras on a day and sometimes we have two units so now it's six or seven cameras. You get the idea....

Scale. Huge scale that has to be fast and super super secure. Editors are cutting in LA by 9AM with stuff that we shot in Miami less than 12 hours earlier....and massive amounts of footage and it's more than one editor working on the SAME material remember, there are assistants doing assemblies, making playlists for producers to (for example) look at a certain new characters scenes. Promos are also typically accessing the SAME material and doing their own thing.

Scale. Massive amount of footage that many many people need to access ASAP at the same time.

JB

All this is A1 Steak Sauce!

The fact that it is an Apple Show it makes sense there is a custom upload station. I'm sure all major studios and streamers have one designed for productions. The nice aspect of having proper budget and allocation of resources. The stuff I work on sadly it's always a fight to get the proper money put towards the right resources. And, when it comes to internet we're stuck with what we get per the locations. If we are lucky it's someone good like Frontier. I sometimes bring stuff to my mom's place since she has Frontier still just to upload if I need to.

Either way, all that you described makes sense. The custom Frame.io alternative also sounds like something that makes sense because I think American Cinematographer mentioned the company once. I'll have to dig back into those articles for that name. I foresee Blackmagic Cloud opening up a Frame.io alternative for us Resolve and BMD users.

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all this! You're the best!
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 8:39 am

John Brawley wrote:
Tim Kraemer wrote:I guess everyone is going to have to do their own version of BRAW, unless Blackmagic wants to help them all out.


I think BMD have already made it available to anyone that want's to use it.

Have missed some news, is there some 3rd party camera or recorder that records to braw? Braw sdk only gives braw decoding capabilities and has nothing in it about encoding side which cameras/recorders would need.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 8:42 am

Will Vazquez wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
You mean DCT I think, which is what ProRes and BRAW use but yes I know what you mean.

JB


Wow, now I think I finally know why footage from new RED DSMC3 cameras like Komodo and Raptor looks muddy and with weird color fringing, it must be the DCT compression.

This has most probably nothing to do with DCT. More than 90% of all video codecs are using DCT as its compression logic basis.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 8:54 am

Red is using pretty strong OLPFs, while BM avoids them. Maybe that's the difference you're seeing.
It can lead to false detail, though.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 11:17 am

Kim Janson wrote:Has anyone really looked into what RED has patented?


I'm only passively interested in this because my father has patents and I've seen at times the ideas taken by much larger companies. He chose to continue competing in the market space without pursuing legal action, as a much smaller individual inventor without legal resources. When I mentioned William Wolowitz above who invented the credit card of all things, he ultimately settled for a cash amount when the oil and gas companies started using the credit card idea at their gas stations without licensing it from Wolowitz first. He then later sued IBM over an erasing type writer ribbon. Wolowitz once said "Who but me could sue IBM?"

So I can't claim to be a legal expert. I read a lot of patents when my father was getting his last. And you can actually do it without lawyers! Generally I look for what the patent holder is claiming in their lawsuit as to what they feel they are being infringed upon. In this case it looks to me like the compression of raw images in a visually lossless manner.

". . .a video camera that can be configured to highly compress video data in a visually lossless manner."

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/Calif ... n_et_al/1/

Interesting that they are not seeking money, but an injunction to block Nikon's use of the tech.

The most common type of patent is a utility patent where you can innovate on an existing process and create something new and useful, which is how I think RED could take preexisting compression of still images and apply it to moving images if that's what they've done.

Here you can look directly at one of them:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 245314.pdf

From the that patent:

"Although some currently available digital video cameras include high resolution image sensors, and thus output high resolution video, the image processing and compression techniques used on board such cameras are too lossy and thus eliminate too much raw image data to be acceptable in the high end portions of the market noted above."
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 11:20 am

AFAIK the red patent covers lossless compressed RGB RAW data. You can do uncompressed RAW i.e DNG or partial debayered data like BRAW ( I.e not real RAW) but what nearly every camera does for stills you are infringing their patent. Just like stills the future for video capture should be lossless RGB compressed RAW but because of RED it isn't......
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 11:26 am

John Griffin wrote:AFAIK the red patent covers lossless compressed RGB RAW data. You can do uncompressed RAW i.e DNG or partial debayered data like BRAW ( I.e not real RAW) but what nearly every camera does for stills you are infringing their patent. Just like stills the future for video capture should be lossless RGB compressed RAW but because of RED it isn't......


It looks written though specifically for motion pictures of "at least 23 frames per second" and "at least 2K" and titled as 'Video Camera.'

Again direct quote:

"Embodiments provide a video camera configured to capture, compress, and store video image data in a memory of the video camera at a rate of at least about twenty three frames per second. The video image data can be mosaiced image data, and the compressed, mosaiced image data may remain substantially visually lossless upon decompression and demosaicing."

"...the image sensor being configured to output the raw mosaiced image data at a resolution of at least 2 k and at a frame rate of at least about 23 frames per second"

It's important that they didn't mention "still" camera there (since jpeg was clearly in the market in a Nikon D1, - D70 at the time, etc) but made it specific to "video camera." But again I'm no expert. .
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 1:05 pm

What will happen if someone makes a camera that can shoot 24 stills per second?
Some are already close at 19 or 20…
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 1:14 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:Interesting that they are not seeking money, but an injunction to block Nikon's use of the tech.


They absolutely *are* seeking money. Their filing reads:

Damages to RED are not yet fully quantified or measured and may not be ascertained without a proper accounting of Nikon’s sales and profits arising from its infringement. RED is also entitled to an increase of damages up to three times the amount found or assessed at least due to Nikon's willful and deliberate infringement. RED is also entitled to an award of its attorneys’ fees because Nikon’s infringement presents an exceptional case

It's been speculated that they went after Nikon, rather than intoPIX, because the former is richer.....

For the rest of it, it just comes down to the seemingly absurd but affirmed claim that Red somehow created and owns the process of compressing raw video images losslessly. The patents appear to pertain only to video, evidently defined as >23fps, because they couldn't claim they "invented" that process for stills.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 1:40 pm

Nikon is not very rich these da¥s any more and might get into serious trouble if Red wins this lawsuit.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 2:05 pm

Hendrik Proosa wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
Tim Kraemer wrote:I guess everyone is going to have to do their own version of BRAW, unless Blackmagic wants to help them all out.


I think BMD have already made it available to anyone that want's to use it.

Have missed some news, is there some 3rd party camera or recorder that records to braw? Braw sdk only gives braw decoding capabilities and has nothing in it about encoding side which cameras/recorders would need.


Ahh have you spoken directly to the BRAW dev team? They would give you a different answer than just reading the publicly published material. The SDK is only for playing back BRAW. There’s nothing about encoding.

The BRAW team tell me several of the brands we all know have explored doing it for camera internal recording but there are complex issues because of the way BRAW works and because all the BRAW hardware is FPGA and a lot of the big Japanese companies work on ASIC chips.

For the BRAW to work in camera they have to profile the sensor in a certain way. They probably could do it themselves but it requires a certain investment as well as the more expensive dev costs of doing a ASIC hardware step as well.

I bet once “someone” does it first, there would be others that follow.

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Ryan Earl

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSun May 29, 2022 2:38 pm

John Paines wrote:They absolutely *are* seeking money. Their filing reads:


True.

I was commenting that I don't believe they are 'seeking money for a licensing fee' but maybe prefer to settle by blocking compressed raw from being used at all. That's just my speculation.

"... which cannot adequately be compensating by money damages. RED therefore seeks a preliminary and permanent injunction from Nikon infringing the claims. . ."

A lot of the same wording in the Kinefinity claim:

https://portal.unifiedpatents.com/litig ... 1-cv-00041

With Kinefinity it wasn't just ProRes RAW, but compressed cDNG and KineRAW. RED dismissed it, not sure if money changed hands in the settlement? Kinefinity only advertises 6K uncompressed DNG and ProRes 4444 with the new EDGE 6K.
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