Alexa 35...meh

I was looking at all the sample footage from the new Alexa 35 and I'm not that wowed. I mean, the footage is nice and clean, but is lacking that magic that the Alev III sensor had. There was something about that older sensor's large pixels that would create a more rounder and smoother looking image. Also more film-like and forgiving. The new camera may have 17 stops of dynamic range, but most of the sample videos show blown out electronic looking highlights. See links below to see what I mean.

This is a familiar complaint, every time there's a new camera. The old ones had magic, and this one doesn't! As assessed on youtube. I don't know what "rounder and smoother" means, but the only DP listed with much of a resume is Barbara Alvarez, and her sample looks pretty good to my eyes.

It seems like Arri is following the advertising path of much cheaper cameras, in presenting work that doesn't represent the pinnacle of potential production value. What you can conclude from those samples is hard to say.

I was impressed by the footage. And, I also agree with the sentiment that every time there is a new camera people say they preferred the previous one more. Happened with the 2.5K to the 4.6K sensors for Blackmagic Cameras. Now people love the 4.6K.

I'm impressed with the dynamic range, and the highlight rolloff looks really nice. And the colors look stunning!

I'm definitely keep to shoot on it sometime.

This is a familiar complaint, every time there's a new camera. The old ones had magic, and this one doesn't! As assessed on youtube. I don't know what "rounder and smoother" means, but the only DP listed with much of a resume is Barbara Alvarez, and her sample looks pretty good to my eyes.

It seems like Arri is following the advertising path of much cheaper cameras, in presenting work that doesn't represent the pinnacle of potential production value. What you can conclude from those samples is hard to say.

You're probably right. We need to see more work shot with it to truly pass judgment. Good news is that they're will be Alexa Minis getting dumped pretty cheap in the next year as more rental houses load up on Alexa 35 cameras. The OG Mini is 7 years old. When the newer Alexa Mini LF came out that's all everyone wanted to shoot with, for commercials at least, and she became the new "IT" girl. It's only a matter of time before the Alexa 35 becomes the next camera everyone has to shoot with.

Below is Oscar winner's Erik Messerschmidt's entry. Real nice.

I don’t see the electronic looking blown out highlights in any of the samples. Maybe it’s your viewing device?

I’ve found this impressive:

I don’t see the electronic looking blown out highlights in any of the samples. Maybe it’s your viewing device?

See the attached photos where I circled the electronic looking blown highlights. Looks like slightly overexposed Sony A7SIII footage. Click on the photo so you can see all 6 examples. I'm sorry, but my Pocket 6K does better than this.

Arri Alexa 35 blown highlights.jpg (240.03 KiB) Viewed 12599 times

It doesn't look bad but I think I prefer the look of the 12K...

I don’t see the electronic looking blown out highlights in any of the samples. Maybe it’s your viewing device?

See the attached photos where I circled the electronic looking blown highlights. Looks like slightly overexposed Sony A7SIII footage. Click on the photo so you can see all 6 examples. I'm sorry, but my Pocket 6K does better than this.

The attachment Arri Alexa 35 blown highlights.jpg is no longer available

Those look like grading choices. The camera has 9 stops of highlight exposure. Pretty tough to squeeze that down into REC 709 sdr.

Here is the Alexa 35 over exposed by 7 1/3 stops

See the attached photos where I circled the electronic looking blown highlights.

Does not look blown out... am looking at with a full 10-bit system.

It doesn't look bad but I think I prefer the look of the 12K...

I have to agree after viewing all the above.. even on YouTube. Can compare with the samples from 12K Note did a while back. Might be nice if he could borrow one and use the same lens on both cameras... or maybe John... or I'll volunteer if someone can loan me an Alexa 35.

Does not look blown out... am looking at with a full 10-bit system.

How are you magically seeing it in 10 bit, when this footage was uploaded in 8 bit. I double checked and when the videos play on my 85" TV, the "HDR" symbol does not appear in the corner, meaning YouTube interprets it as 8 bit SDR.

Those look like grading choices. The camera has 9 stops of highlight exposure. Pretty tough to squeeze that down into REC 709 sdr.

Here is the Alexa 35 over exposed by 7 1/3 stops

I think you’re right. The more footage I see shot by other people we really see the power of this new sensor. Unfortunately like someone else commented, camera manufacturers don’t put out their best stuff for their own videos that are supposed to showcase their products. I was wrong.

It doesn't look $77k good.

There's no pleasing some people.

It doesn't look $77k good.

Might seem like a lot of money to you to buy, but for bigger productions who are renting it, that is such a small cost that even a 5% improvement is worth it!

The ALEXA 35 by the way is slightly cheaper than the Mini LF! So I think ARRI did a good job with the price.

It's not the camera cost that bothers me...it's the media cost. lol

But, to point out the obvious, the camera isn't intended for the owner/operator market, much less to compete with the retail mass-market.

Based on what's available, highlight retention would appear to be mind-blowing, if you get excited about that sort of thing. And the characteristics of the Arri Classic are still there. Considering that the Classic has remained the gold standard for the last 12 years or so, this one is quite a leap.

I think it looks very similar to my 12k. The resized screen grab below was shot in sunny weather. No diffusion, fill or bounce. I think the 12k holds up well to what I’ve seen in the demo footage from the S35. Color graded myself for a more vintage look. (Don’t roast me) The 17 stops is amazing on the Arri! But I think blackmagic will close in on that S35. Maybe an ursa mini G3 with the same amount of dynamic range as the S35 MAYBE?

60350C6E-2857-471A-90E0-D4E38DA8C11D.jpeg (143.62 KiB) Viewed 12101 times

It doesn't look $77k good.

Might seem like a lot of money to you to buy, but for bigger productions who are renting it, that is such a small cost that even a 5% improvement is worth it!

The ALEXA 35 by the way is slightly cheaper than the Mini LF! So I think ARRI did a good job with the price.

Rental houses will definitely buy them. It's just the fact that I am comparing it to an Arri Classic sensor, it just doesn't wow me like that. Now I did end up seeing better footage, and I see the dynamic range.

I think Blackmagic just spoiled me.

Donnell, that’s a difficult shot with the sun glancing off the nose while you’ve ensured the shadows are fully detailed. Still nothing clipped. Well done.

When you think about it, the Alexa 35 has so many features that the UMP12K doesn’t pretend to support, but when it comes down to the deliverables, the UMP12K and Resolve can be comparable. Perhaps when your film budget is over $100M, you need to go with cameras with additional features required than simply “makes a beautiful image.” But if your budget is significantly smaller, you would think BMD will continue to make inroads and gather momentum.

if bm came out with a camera like this yall would be shitting and cooming. Idk what the deal is lol.

if bm came out with a camera like this yall would be shitting and cooming. Idk what the deal is lol.

BM would never release a product with a $70k price tag; that destroys their entire brand philosophy.

Clearly we're not the target market for this camera (not me, at least)

Finally finished Matthew Allard’s “first look” 23,000 word review. He goes into the Reveal Colour science in detail. Resolve supports it.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2022/06/01/ ... irst-look/

Donnell, that’s a difficult shot with the sun glancing off the nose while you’ve ensured the shadows are fully detailed. Still nothing clipped. Well done.

When you think about it, the Alexa 35 has so many features that the UMP12K doesn’t pretend to support, but when it comes down to the deliverables, the UMP12K and Resolve can be comparable. Perhaps when your film budget is over $100M, you need to go with cameras with additional features required than simply “makes a beautiful image.” But if your budget is significantly smaller, you would think BMD will continue to make inroads and gather momentum.

Agreed Rick. BM is catching up fast

I guess MEH stands for "Must 'Ev HER!!!" Because that's what most high end DPs are gonna be saying about this camera as it gets out there. Evaluating its potential based on the first demo clip that's uploaded to YouTube would not be my way of going about it. I don't do that with Blackmagic or any other camera either. I will get some RAW clips from it to grade them myself to see how they deliver. But based on the specs and other info, the Alexa 35 is gonna set a new standard for the features, TV, and commercial markets.

But based on the specs and other info, the Alexa 35 is gonna set a new standard for the features, TV, and commercial markets.

I’m not sure what new standards they are cause most of the camera features are already standards - S35, High DR, etc. The Blackmagic UMP 4.6K has set that standard on small form factor Cine cams with an S35 sensor, 16 stops DR, 4.6K, BRAW (or raw) and Prores, etc. way before this release. The Alexa has a bit of an edge like 17 stops DR, better mounting options, etc. I think the Alexa 35 just confirms that like itself, the UMP 4.6K G2 is the ideal footprint that checks the list of DPs and production entities like Netflix, Amazon, et. Al.

I’m not sure what new standards they are cause most of the camera features are already standards - S35, High DR, etc. The Blackmagic UMP 4.6K has set that standard on small form factor Cine cams with an S35 sensor, 16 stops DR, 4.6K, BRAW (or raw) and Prores, etc. way before this release. The Alexa has a bit of an edge like 17 stops DR, better mounting options, etc. I think the Alexa 35 just confirms that like itself, the UMP 4.6K G2 is the ideal footprint that checks the list of DPs and production entities like Netflix, Amazon, et. Al.

The Alexa 35 of itself (and its 17 stops) won't make better movies, but the one objective test I've seen of the UMP 4.6K puts DR closer to 12 stops.

Arri is conservative about their own claims. 15 stops are a common measurement of the Classic, but they insist on saying 14 or 14.5. What's seen in some of the Alexa 35 samples floating around doesn't appear to have any precedent, for dynamic range. DR isn't a cure for what's wrong with most movies, but the camera does appear to set a new standard, just as the original Alexa did in 2010....

The Blackmagic UMP 4.6K has set that standard on small form factor Cine cams with an S35 sensor, 16 stops DR, 4.6K, BRAW (or raw) and Prores, etc. way before this release.

Here is the thing, I love Blackmagic. I own a 6K and I love shooting with it. I also think the Ursa is a great camera for its market segment, and it's definitely one of the best bangs for the buck out there.

But as Local 600 DIT, I work on commercials, features, and TV and the only time ever see a Blackmagic camera on a union set is either as a crash cam, or for behind the scenes. The union commercial market in LA is currently Mini LF and Venice cams, with the Alexa Mini 3.4K hanging in as a "lower budget" camera. And the features I've been on for the last year have been Mini LF and Alexa 65. For this market, the Ursa is simply not on the radar, and bringing it up as an option would probably subject one to ridicule -- warranted or not. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't make the rules.

With the Alexa 35 coming in with its new color, dynamic range, and textures, most DPs I know are gonna be either jumping on it right away, if they are currently in the Alexa camp, or at least will want to test it on a job if they are currently in the Venice camp.

A lot of DPs went to the Venice camp because they needed a 4K solution that wasn't an LF, and a lot of DPs started shooting LF only because they like Arri but needed 4K. Now both these camps have a potential camera to fall in love with, and of course any DP that's currently in the Alexa Mini 3.4K range will naturally want to graduate to the 35. So, yeah, based on what I see out there, I think this camera is gonna be huge.

Alexa Classics are already showing up on eBay for $5-6K.

I wouldn't go as far as saying the camera is "meh", but still, i personally did not see any difference between this and the previous alexa cameras.
The previous cameras were already the Gold standard in image quality and the DR was already more than enough (at least for me).
The real reason i'll INSIST on filming with this camera over the others is really because of low light shooting at "higher ISO".

The four highest ISO settings (ES) use additional temporal noise reduction in camera by capturing a second throwaway frame for shutter angle values up to 180 degrees. Will be very interesting to see those results as there’s no shortage of low light opportunities these days.

I wouldn't go as far as saying the camera is "meh", but still, i personally did not see any difference between this and the previous alexa cameras.
The previous cameras were already the Gold standard in image quality and the DR was already more than enough (at least for me).

Exactly that. We are at the point where differences people will find are incredibly nit picky from relative counter parts.
You could get an almost identical result from the ursa 12k, as well as any higher end camera letting go a few small things here and there. With the power of color grading especially it makes the difference less and less as you can closely mimic another cameras style.
That might be why OP thinks that its meh, because the differences are so small (because we are nearing the end point in what the human eye can actually perceive quality wise compared to a camera) but im here just waiting for bm to release a goddamn box camera so what can i say lol

At this point the only improvements you can make for cameras are in increased headroom when it comes to specs (for when you dont expose properly ect.) and ergonomics/size of the camera.

Just look at something like that DJI ronin, the camera looks like a ******* turd, but it performs just as well and only really improves in the stabilization and focusing space. You can almost argue that its a better camera than the alexa 35 because of that.

At the end of the day though, the camera is only as good as its crew and operator, so really none of this ******* matters if the crew and creative vision are dogshit.

The real reason i'll INSIST on filming with this camera over the others is really because of low light shooting at "higher ISO".

With the Alexa 35 you'll get lower noise in low light at any ISO setting but because this is an EI (exposure index) camera (like BMD), you aren't changing actual gain with the ISO setting. You are using EI to change the latitude above and below middle gray.

It seems counter intuitive but you'll get less noise using a lower ISO setting because it will cause you to give more light to the sensor with aperture, shutter, fast glass, key lighting or other means.

The real reason i'll INSIST on filming with this camera over the others is really because of low light shooting at "higher ISO".

With the Alexa 35 you'll get lower noise in low light at any ISO setting but because this is an EI (exposure index) camera (like BMD), you aren't changing actual gain with the ISO setting. You are using EI to change the latitude above and below middle gray.

It seems counter intuitive but you'll get less noise using a lower ISO setting because it will cause you to give more light to the sensor with aperture, shutter, fast glass, key lighting or other means.

I 100% know that i'll get better lower noise filming with lower ISO, but sometimes when filming at night and you don't have the budget to light a whole street/area, it then helps to push that ISO up somemore.

FD Times dedicated their latest article to the Alexa 35. There's lots of info in there from their various heads of tech, so it's worth a read if you're curious.
https://www.fdtimes.com/pdfs/free/115FD ... 04-150.pdf

"Can't see a difference" ...

Look at the technical tests. The dynamic range increase is demonstrable and obvious. Anybody would be happy to have that in their camera and it's a huge achievement. There's a lot of other interesting developments like textures and the new color pipeline to consider.

Maybe take a minute and instead of searching for reasons to be disappointed, celebrate the work by engineers who developed something nobody else has been able to bring to market.

the biggest achievement of the alexa35 are the textures

the biggest achievement of the alexa35 are the textures

I don't know how you can say that. We've been hearing for years that minimally processed unadulterated raw data is the cat's meow....

Now, get your Arriraw with "Nostalgic"? What colorist is going to welcome baked-in fx? Haven't consumer cameras been offering this kind of thing for years?

What colorist is going to welcome baked-in fx?

We should keep in mind that intended target audience for this camera are cinematographers, and not colorists. I think the Textures feature is gonna be big draw for cinematographers, some of whom have been loosing some control over the final version of their image because of all the post flexibility. For them the idea that they can bake in texture that they like and that can't be changed by the colorist is gonna be big draw.

Two of these textures are Cosmetic and Soft Cosmetic -- I think these will be used a lot in commercials, as well as when lighting certain performers. I've been in many situations where these would've come in handy.

Nostalgic and Soft Nostalgic will definitely be embraced by some DPs I know and they will LOVE the fact that they can bake it in.

And of course the texture recommended for green screen work will also be used heavily for obvious reasons.

It's basically the Sony version of S-Cinetone. And while I believe that DP's may like this, they will get overridden by those that write the check and want the greatest flexibility.

For them the idea that they can bake in texture that they like and that can't be changed by the colorist is gonna be big draw.

Sounds like wishful thinking -- what can't be changed in post? I also doubt every DP is going to want to dial in a canned pre-set "texture". It would interesting to know who expressed a desire for such a feature, who they heard it from. But the idea that "texture" is the defining feature of the Alexa 35 seems, in the face of the other technical advances of the camera, kinda strange.

Wait...for weddings using textures would be perfect.

It's basically the Sony version of S-Cinetone.

It's basically detail and noise reduction. S-Cinetone is a picture profile.

Good Luck

It's basically the Sony version of S-Cinetone.

It's basically detail and noise reduction. S-Cinetone is a picture profile.

Good Luck

Actually it's nothing to do with detail and noise reduction. It's all about contrast and grain.

ALEXA 35 Textures are like a film lab in a box, the box being the camera. Textures are designated as characters with names. For example, let’s decipher P425 Cosmetic. From left to right:
1. The first letter indicates the type of grain. There are different letters for different types, but the letters are arbitrary.
2. The first number (2nd character) is the amount of grain. The higher the number (0-9), the greater amount of grain.
3. Next is the amount of contrast of fine details (e.g. edges, skin tones). The higher the number (0-9), the greater the contrast.
4. The 4th character is the amount of contrast of coarse detail (e.g. overall shapes).

and this is like S-Cinetone how exactly?

Good Luck

Basically it's a baked in profile...Arri is just calling it a texture. My guess is that you can grade it more, however it's still baked in and cannot be removed.

Nostalgic and Soft Nostalgic will definitely be embraced by some DPs I know and they will LOVE the fact that they can bake it in.

I know a lot of GREAT cinematographers that aren't employed because of their creative principals. Doing stuff like this is a great way to make sure you don't get employed again.

There are smarter ways to do stuff like this.

JB

Well, I for one am looking forward to discussing texture options with the DPs I work with on any jobs with this camera. A year from now, maybe I'll have some statistics on what texture options are popular for what kind of project. But I can pretty much guarantee that most DPs will want to try them.

Well, I for one am looking forward to discussing texture options with the DPs I work with on any jobs with this camera. A year from now, maybe I'll have some statistics on what texture options are popular for what kind of project. But I can pretty much guarantee that most DPs will want to try them.

I'm sure they'll get used.

But it's much smarter to do it with all the stakeholders involved on board with that look, not because you want to bake something in so someone else can't change it later. That (to me anyway) just says the DP isn't setting up the right relationships in the first place.

Yes, I know that we don't always get to choose how these relationships turn out, but in my experience, doing something that destructively limits the ability to u-turn later should only be done with the full understanding and consent of all involved. Basically you have top prepare a visual manifesto and make sure the directors / producers et al all understand what you're doing. I think just charging off and doing something permanent like this is fine circa 1975 and you're doing the godfather, but most of the time that I've seen this kind of belligerence usually backfires and it backfires on the DP.

I've been in positions where work I've done has been abused and grades or looks I've set have been reversed, but nine times out of ten you can avoid this ever happening without having to resort to baking in a look. There are many times that the context of the scene you shot changes simply because the edit get's re-ordered. If you've baked in a look that's let say for the sake of argument, nearly black and white with grain, then the scene's context changes and it needs to be in colour with no grain, the DP will get the blame, even though it's not the DP's fault the scene order changed.

I'm going to guess that everything that Arri offer in camera can also be done in post later. So why do it in camera other than a quick turnaround, or this scenario where you stake yourself to a look no matter what....

Of course we want "control" of the image, but we should earn that control through building trusting and meaningful relationships with the people that are making the movie. We shouldn't forget it's not "our" movie either....

JB (yes I've been fired and had bad relationships with creatives but it's far better to manage those relationships in the first place)

I'm going to guess that everything that Arri offer in camera can also be done in post later.

Which is what's puzzling.... Why not instead (or at least in addition to) release OFXs, where you have the leisure, and the monitoring equipment, to actually see what you're doing and adjust as needed? And nobody's stuck with it or forced to work around it.

This combining of never seen before performance (so it appears, anyway) with baked "looks". Strange.