Cinematography, The End of the Chain

Ah, yes this come down to the compression on the end of the Streamer. So, I always see YouTube compression artifacts on things I watch on there. Same with the HD versions of some older shows on Netflix, HBO, or Amazon Prime. Even some of the 4K HDR content at times suffers from compression artifacts.

The key is to get the internet bandwidth higher and for the streamers to use less compression. It's a mix because they are going with lower streaming bandwidth to fulfill the lowest common demonstrator at the highest possible data rate acceptable for UHD HDR. If HD then it's an even lower data rate. Ultimately we could be getting higher data rates, but then it becomes a matter of Cloud storage for the company to have those higher data rates because the file sizes of the uploaded show/movie becomes bigger. And, yet, this all comes back to the internet speed of the audience.

Consider the TV a future proof purchase. Hopefully in the next few years the internet streaming quality will get even better. Overall, this is a mixture of things in the final pipeline.

The key is to get the internet bandwidth higher and for the streamers to use less compression.
…
Hopefully in the next few years the internet streaming quality will get even better. Overall, this is a mixture of things in the final pipeline.

I hope so too. But it also boils down to dollars because a bigger pipe will probably be overpriced for the average consumer and that will be something the internet providers will be concern with and that will bring a bunch of compromises.

For the cinema and series, I think the problem is too much resolution, probably would be better to have FHD, with the 4k bandwidth.

But I also think some of the problems are already before capturing the image. What worked with low resolution, low dynamic range, might not be so great with high resolution, high dynamic range, and it often seems on the new content the dynamic range is "demonstrated" without any real purpose, and it comes distracting.

I think that some technology at the end of the pipeline between the wire and the TV can come to be providing on the fly data caching of the streams such that the high bandwidth content can still be delivered over low bandwidth “Internet “ lines, then from the cache, the device can stream out the content to the Display device in high res and DR. My 2 cents.

Maybe another two cents:
I suggest the real issue here may be Color Management. The current situation has been like the wild west for HDR. ACES and Dolby have been doing a lot to set up standards and workflows to correctly manage for HDR. Displays and streaming have much room for improvement no mater their res, range or quality, but at the heart of their success to deliver as intended will be a good color management workflow.

This is a big can of worms, but the current implementation of HDR is really crappy to say the least. I have done a lot of testing back and forth and found that if I want consistent and reliable color fidelity on my my LG C1 Oled TV, the best way to get that is if I view it through an Apple TV box and set it to 4K SDR 444 mode. In other words, I disable HDR and Dolby Vision on everything I watch.

With this setting I'm able to set my TV up to be an amazing display that makes everything a joy to watch. But in HDR mode, to color fidelity goes out the window and the contrast ratios start to vary significantly depending on the content. It's simply not worth the hassle at this point.

I don’t think you can take SDR input and have the 4KTV convert it to HDR. You must have HDR input being transmitted.

The AppleTV 4K box is on my 2009 Samsung HDTV and it’s still very useful.

Kim, what brand and model of 4KTV do you have?

From my experience of watching what’s the ‘latest and greatest’ TV each year planning to buy a 4K TV, I swear the best TV is the new one introduced each year as far as the media and manufacturer’s hype would have you believe. But that’s to be taken with a tablespoon of salt because it’s only after you’ve been able to read the comments from very astute colour professionals, that you understand where the flaws are on that flawed device the world was convinced was perfect in January. Fortunately as it turns out, I’ve held off a purchase due to other financial priorities and my 2009 HDTV is still working very well.

If you feed it your own 4K video creations that are graded in Resolve for one of the HDR flavours that your new television accepts, I think you’ll see a much better result. So much depends on the quality of your connection to your carrier.

I think the problem is too much resolution, probably would be better to have FHD, with the 4k bandwidth.

Yep. We have gone from bit starved 1080p to bit starved 2160p. That said, actual good quality video like UHD Blu Ray or mezzanine codec files look really really good on a nice panel. Distribution is the issue here.

I’m using an AppleTV 4K box as well. Definitely one of the best options. But I also had to play with the TV settings a bit to get the best results.

Still, I see MPEG noise issues with HD SDR content that was likely uploaded to Netflix in 2011 at much higher compression. I actually rewatched Season 1 of The Newsroom from 2012 on HBOMAX a short while back. Compression artifacts were abundantly obvious. I doubt that they have re-encoded this content since 2012.

The movies I’ve bought from Apple Store in 4K HDR look amazing however. Yet, at times I still catch a compression artifact. It depends on the scene too. High contrast stuff sometimes is the worst. Where banding shows up in the shadows can break the picture with regards to the OLED. Maybe the 4K HDR Blu-Ray version is better as it could have less compression? That’s a test I’d have to run.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Apple TV 4k, LG Oled, streaming only, no cable, zero sharpness, zero complaints. The Apple TV is worth the cost for the UI alone. The remote died on my old Samsung so we used the Apple TV as the host rather the “smart hub” app and never looked back.

Search “test patterns” on Netflix if you want to tweak.

Good Luck

Maybe the 4K HDR Blu-Ray version is better as it could have less compression? That’s a test I’d have to run.

The bitrate is pretty high, 80-100Mb/s, which we are certainly not getting from streaming.

My short summary would be the FHD TV was cinematic viewing device, the the new one makes everything look like video.

Any chance you have a form of frame upconversion, motion smoothing and/or sharpening enabled? If the image is looking like "video", that is likely the cause. In most TVs it's on by default, buried in deep menus, and listed under vague labels. In virtually all cases, any image option in the menu that can be turned off should be turned off if you want to see what the image was meant to look like.

It is Philips 48OLED806

That’s a very good television so it’s likely either not getting a high quality feed or the AI settings are causing problems. As Jamie suggests, there will be many choices the TV is making for you but you can usually turn them off. Some of the settings may only cause problems for certain content, such as watching a hockey game. Hope you are enjoying it more very soon.

When everything looks great, indistinguishable from reality (except better), VHS cassettes will be prized as the only true way into cinema, free of the false seductions of technology.

Martin Scorsese learned everything on a 13" B&W TV. Film fanatics of the 80s and 90s got it from VHS and lousy 16mm circulating prints.

When everything looks marvelous, the blacks can't get any darker, there are 17 stops on the screen and nothing is left to to the imagination, everyone will be bored to death.

Thanks for asking.

On my 65 inch 8K, the first thing everyone does is scrunch their noses up to the screen to see the pixels. Once you see them, it is possible to keep seeing them as far back as 3-4 feet. People will think, if you have to get that close to see a difference it's not worth it, but the point is to *not see* pixels from any distance. Resolution is always good, no one ever complained their eyesight was too good to see the world.

To me, all the streaming services look pretty good including Amazon, Netflix, AppleTV, Vudu, Hulu, whether in HDR, SDR or 1080p. Even over the air tv can look very nice. About the only thing I could complain about, is with cable or satellite where things can get blocky.

As for the processing, turn all of it off, or as much as you can. They can wreck the experience, soap opera effect, interpolated frames, dynamic contrast enhancements, fake HDR settings, sharpness etc.

That said, there is no escaping that the home viewing experience is never going to mimick the much beloved look of the silver screen whose 50 nit brightness and 60 foot width is not something you are going to reproduce in the home setting. Somewhere between that and wearing 3D glasses and headphones exists the viewing domain you choose for cinema. Your popcorn will never be as good as cinema popcorn, the floor will never be as dirty and some people will say they prefer watching movies at home to going to the theater. Personally, I see the enjoyment in doing both, and don't worry too much about the authenticity of the venue. The audio is as important as the video, the musical scoring, the visuals are all things adaptable within the mind. Watching movies on a airplane has its proponents.

Some of the settings may only cause problems for certain content, such as watching a hockey game. Hope you are enjoying it more very soon.

In Canada, you have everything and more than we will ever have in the states. You have natural beauty, land mass, nature and scenery, lakes and streams and mountains and wildlife, natural resources but there is one thing you will never have, Lord Stanley's Cup .

So true, Tom. But at least we keep trying. World champion 4x100m relay is a start.

*it seems the consumer sector is now leading this short distance, up to 100m video distribution, makes me wonder when will we get affordable optical 'SDI'

SDI is already good for 100m over copper so there isn’t much point for consumers, also it’s SDI, so not a consumer format to begin with. Once the market gets big enough Shenzen will take notice, and they have. A pair of these can be purchased for $320 USD per pair and likely much cheaper in bulk. They use inexpensive ST fiber connectors and are good for transmission up to 10km. On amazon bulk singlemode goes for less than 30 cents per meter.

Good Luck