[Possible Resolution] No repairs on cameras over 18mo ?

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ericdehaven

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[Possible Resolution] No repairs on cameras over 18mo ?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 7:46 am

Hi everyone,
I am posting here as I think this is an important message to share with the community.
The cliff notes version, BM has said they are unable / unwilling to repair an Usra Mini G2 for a Main SDI board failure that is only 18mo old.
Let me preface this with a bit of background so we can all be fair to the situation.

I am the owner of an LA based rental facility as well as the head of Post Production for a large post house in the same area. At my rental house we currently own 8 Black magic cameras and other converters, monitors, etc. In my post house we have 2 full resolve advanced systems and somewhere around 15+ Resolve Studio licenses as well as countless other BM devices including switchers, monitors, converters etc..
To say that we are power users is a bit of an understatement and we have spent a lot of money on our BM products.

This past week we had an Ursa Mini Pro G2 fail on one of our customers. The main SDI port failed, and as many of you know this is a persistant issue. As a facility we have replaced ALL our SDI cables with 12G Beldin, we have reduced most of our usage of D-tap to lemo only, and we even include a laminated sheet with all cameras reminding the user of the SDI connection routine to avoid failure. This particular customer was reminded of that at prep and we went over it with the AC as well. They were seasoned Local 600 pro's with good knowledge of the issues and worked to avoid any possible problems.
It failed anyway. This particular camera has failed before, or at least it was replaced before, a full sensor body failure in fact and it was replaced under warranty in January of 2020 with a new camera. So this body was less then 2 years old.
I called support and asked for an RMA to repair our camera, I did, for full disclosure ask if there was a chance we could get this covered as its a know failure point, but I never at any point said we would not pay to repair the camera if we had to.
The tech support rep kindly told me he would get back to me with an RMA... This is where my story goes sideways. I was utterly shocked to read this email. Image
So to my understanding Blackmagic is no longer able to stand behind the products they manufacture after 18mo, since this body was a new replacement in Jan 2020. While I can understand, to some degree, that I need to pay for the repair, which I am willing to do. I cannot understand an outright, we will not fix it, full stop.
As a customer of this company it makes me seriously reconsider my previous purchases and our future purchases. If a brand cannot stand behind its products only a year and a half after it was taken out of the box, then how can any of us justify a purchase of thousands of dollars that we get only 18mo use out of.

This is not the first time we have had cameras fail. Almost every camera we own has been sent in for service at least once.. Some many times. We have had multiple pockets fail with bad HDMI ports, failed sensors, and other small issues. We currently have a graveyard of 2 dead Ursa Mini G1's both with bad sensor blocks, a pocket 6K with a dead sensor, another 6K with a group of non working buttons and a dead 7" monitor all not repairable and not replaceable, and as noted this camera has been in for service and replaced as well.

I have never had an issue with BM service before, like many brands the timeline to repair products is getting longer and longer, and the costs are higher then ever, but again we have usually gotten our gear back into service in a few months or so.

So now I come to a dilemma. This is a popular camera and our customers do like shooting on it. But how do I justify a camera that will fail with no provided service in only 18mo. (this is not the first camera to fail right around 18mo give or take)

I now put the ball in BM's court. Is this truly the case that you are no longer repairing these cameras for a failed SDI board (which appears to be the same board in the current Ursa Broadcast 6K)? And what does this mean for our Pockets, Pocket Pro's, Ursa 12k, and Ursa 6k's?
I am here for open discussion and welcome input on this issue. I know some might say why are we complaining we are rental business, didn't we get our moneys worth. No we don't, with rentals costs plummeting and the additional accessories like batteries and media etc on a camera body package, many of us make pay off in 24 months (on average we see a single Ursa body go out 30-60 days a year and the body itself accounts for only part of our rental price). So this is where 18mo is a bit of a concern for us in this market.. But please weigh in and hopefully BM you guys can chime in as well as I welcome the conversation.

Thanks for reading this lengthy message
-E
Last edited by ericdehaven on Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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robert Hart

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 9:22 am

BM may end up wearing the consequences of a "what the market will bear" approach. Unfortunately what the market will bear for entities which exclusively use vulnerable BM products may sink those entities before BM itself is directly affected.

If renting out the products does not achieve amortisation and yield profit before the products fail then it is not a sustainable business model as you correctly state. My old uncle had a saying, "No business is better than bad business." You may need to diversify into other competing products to spread the risk if you have not already.

If you were over-reliant on the lower unit cost of the BM camera products to undercut your competitors who may be renting out other brands, then that is pretty thin ice to stand on.

If you have other product for rental already, maybe you should retain your dwindling BM fleet so long as it lasts for a niche market as a loss-leader whilst attempting to upsell your client to the more enduring products.

If you intend to remain loyal to BM products, then you may need to adjust your rental pricing on the assumption that up to two or more units will fail for every one which lives on during the amortisation timeline.

That's how shoes are sold these days. Manufacturers for a quantity of say 100 pairs of shoes will provide to the retailer a number more to cover "no-argument" replacement of failed product, well-knowing that there will be a certain percentage of failure if people simply do not wear them out fast enough.

BM will continue with its business model for so long as it works. If the market risks collapse, BM will spot the signs, make the necessary changes or call it best and get out.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 9:33 am

During world-wide lockdowns, everybody had difficulties regarding supply chains. I have no idea how much revenue Sony has lost over the period when they couldn't deliver some cameras for months. Well, they have deep pockets and survived, but also raised the prices for products in a similar class over models from 2019, like the A7. This may be one approach to survive. And then, Sony is making their own sensors.

Or look at the prices and waiting times for GPUs over the last year. Or think of cars. Even used cars went up in price.

BM obviously couldn't get parts they can't produce themselves (which happens to many companies in this globalised economy) and had to limit repair periods. I suppose they couldn't finance Sony's approach. So, go for a Venice, if you can. It's a very nice camera. And then there are Red and Arri.

But if you want to get a camera at BM's price level, you may have to share the risk in turbulent times.
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Patrick Spectra

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 9:55 am

Sorry to hear this.

I know when I got into the “biz” over 25 years ago, I worked at a well known rental facility (they are still around and have grown in size) and we had two engineers on staff who fixed things. No camera was ever thrown out as parts from one could fix the other or vice versa. Cameras were still sent in for repairs that engineers could not do.

If BM won’t fix it, ask about parts. If that doesn’t work, look for damaged cameras for sale and try and fix yours. I hate saying that and that’s why right to repair laws have to be stronger or exist if they don’t in your area.

Good luck and I hope you get it fixed.


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Uli Plank

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 10:05 am

I'm strictly voting for the right to repair and it's a big discussion in EU right now.

But don't fool yourself: we'll pay for it as buyers or some manufacturers will not survive.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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ericdehaven

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 4:00 pm

Thanks for the replies.

So, go for a Venice, if you can. It's a very nice camera. And then there are Red and Arri.

We own 2 Venice's (a 1 and a 2) as well as the rest of the Sony line (FX6,FX9, and A7), as well we currently have 6 Alexa Minis plus a few more in house and the rest of the Arri line including the new 35 and lastly we carry the Red line up from DSMC1 on.. We even have Canon line up from R5C to C500

So the business model side is not really the question. I am a 35yr vet of the industry as both a DoP and VFX artist. My approach to my companies has always been "would I shoot on this?" Not "is it popular" I have believed in the product, I respected Grant's approach and the business model and ethic he lead with. So beyond RED they were some of the first cameras I bought when I started my company. So I was both a fan and a consumer. I have had many interactions over the years with the staff at BM and I have a lot of respect for those people. Its why this email caught me so off guard.

Global supply chains are one thing and we are seeing this with many other brands as well, however I have yet to have a brand deny a repair full stop on something that was only a few years old. Sony has even serviced my 2015 BVM-X300 many times, as those were notorious for the power supply failures with little fuss.

No camera was ever thrown out as parts from one could fix the other or vice versa.

I am 100% with you. We do a large majority of our service inhouse including lens service. Unfortunately the days of mechanical film cameras are waining and the ability to replace a PCB is harder then ever as many of these internal parts are not isolated boards. The Main SDI board is isolated for the most part, however it differs from what we have been told and determined from the older Ursa G1 board so we would have a hard time finding a G2 that we can pull parts from that also does not suffer from the same failure. If you have one let me know and we will be interested in purchase..
I'm strictly voting for the right to repair

I am a fan of self service but unfortunately the complexity of modern PCB's and systems means that bespoke systems and tools are generally required to diagnose and repair a system like this. Its a bit different then replacing a broken iPhone screen. Not that it cant be done but its very dependent on a lot of things.

I appreciate the comments and its good to know the temperature of the customer base. I think I am just more concerned that a camera only 18mo old cant be fixed.. If we were talking a G1 I would go about my merry way.. which I have with those of mine that have failed.. just a bit more of a sting with a fairly new item such as this.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 8:49 pm

Getting told this via email seems a bitter pill to swallow. Given your frequent dealings with BMD, having received a phone call might have sweetened the pill as you would have the opportunity to be heard personally.

Perhaps that call will come at some point. But for all I know a personal phone call might have contravened company rules of engagement that are designed to ensure everyone is equal and all communications are self-documenting.
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WahWay

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 10:23 am

As a repair engineer, having dismantled a Ursa Mini 4.6k its pretty straight forward to repair provided there is parts available.
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Tom Roper

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 6:07 am

Not to misunderstand, but my interpretation from the letter is 18 months "out of warranty," meaning you have the 12 months of coverage under the limited warranty, plus 18 months thereafter, so that's 2.5 years that repair at their expense or yours is possible. Not applicable to a rental house are the additional warranty replacement policies that can be purchased through retailers like B&H.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 6:59 am

Tom Roper wrote:Not to misunderstand, but my interpretation from the letter is 18 months "out of warranty," meaning you have the 12 months of coverage under the limited warranty, plus 18 months thereafter, so that's 2.5 years that repair at their expense or yours is possible. Not applicable to a rental house are the additional warranty replacement policies that can be purchased through retailers like B&H.

That’s how I read the email of the OP as well. So if the rental house has 24 months to get their Return on the investment, then the 2.5 years or 30 months window that repairs can be done will be sufficient. I think what might be happening and unclear is that this is a replacement camera and therefore if it is so, then the commencement of the camera purchase date and start of warranty was inclusive of the initial camera to date. That may have exceeded the warranty period + 18 months which might be the case. IDK. Only that OP knows the story. If I am wrong, then there is a matter of concern to BM’s repair policy.

Good luck OP.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 9:03 am

California’s Lemon Law already requires electronics costing between $50-100 to be reparable for a period of 3 years. Electronics costing $100 and up must be repairable for 7 years. Video Cameras are included under Section 9801 of the Business and Professions Code subdivision h. The problem is that it would cost $25k for a lawyer to pursue the case.

I’d file a small claims case (sub 10k) and quote section 1793.03 under the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act.

Good Luck
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codedeltajames

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 9:29 am

Ellory Yu wrote:
Tom Roper wrote:Not to misunderstand, but my interpretation from the letter is 18 months "out of warranty," meaning you have the 12 months of coverage under the limited warranty, plus 18 months thereafter, so that's 2.5 years that repair at their expense or yours is possible. Not applicable to a rental house are the additional warranty replacement policies that can be purchased through retailers like B&H.

That’s how I read the email of the OP as well. So if the rental house has 24 months to get their Return on the investment, then the 2.5 years or 30 months window that repairs can be done will be sufficient. I think what might be happening and unclear is that this is a replacement camera and therefore if it is so, then the commencement of the camera purchase date and start of warranty was inclusive of the initial camera to date. That may have exceeded the warranty period + 18 months which might be the case. IDK. Only that OP knows the story. If I am wrong, then there is a matter of concern to BM’s repair policy.

Good luck OP.


It also reads to me that when they have a decent stock of parts they will revisit this decision and the OP may yet get his camera repaired.

The component shortage is real and getting worse at the moment, not just for BMD but for pretty much every company that uses any sort of electronic component. We've got components on order which we use to be able to get, reliably, next-day - but are currently on 12+ month backorder. We keep hearing that things are expected to get better in six months or so, but no sign of that yet.

I'm honestly not surprised that any manufacturer is having to prioritise repairs and replacements on their products that are in, or just out of, warranty.
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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 11:40 am

codedeltajames wrote:It also reads to me that when they have a decent stock of parts they will revisit this decision and the OP may yet get his camera repaired.


The problem with this train of thought is that why would any company divert a part they can put into a new camera, and gain another sale, with higher profit margin? Based on the expected length yet to come on the shortages that broken camera could sit there for another 2 years.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 12:08 pm

There's a component shortage when it comes to repair, but not when it comes to releasing 4 new cameras, a half dozen switchers, the cloud pods, and numerous other products within the last year? Somehow there were enough chips to build a few thousand Broadcast G2s.

Good Luck
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codedeltajames

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 12:34 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Somehow there were enough chips to build a few thousand Broadcast G2s.


I thought they were quite clear on why they launched the Broadcast G2 - because the sensors they were using had completely dried up and they had back orders in place waiting to be fulfilled for over a year.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 4:48 pm

The Aptina AR1101HS is an 8 year old sensor, that was likely mothballed following Aptina's acquisition by Onsemi. Regardless, the OP isn't looking for a new/old sensor, he's looking for the SDI IO card to be replaced, like the one in the UBG2.

Good Luck
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ericdehaven

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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 6:00 pm

Hi all OP here..
So to clarify what is going on..

We were not asking for a warranty repair, just a repair at our expense.. We did ask if it could be covered but this was not a deal breaker. Since this issue is a persistant problem and one we have had on multiple units repeatadly I had to ask.. However we also asked for a quote to repair as well.

For a rental house 24mo is a ideal payoff, some cameras take longer so we need a margin of profit in there too. So 2.5yrs is not long enough to make it a good financial choice in my opinion. But its all a calculation.

That all being said, I do want to say that BM has reached back out and we are working to find a solution to the issue. I think that in this current situation companys on both ends are stressed with staffing and supply issues. My intent was to point out that we all need to remember why we are here, its to tell our stories. Without companies like BM we dont have the cameras and equipment to do that, without companies like mine we dont have access to much of that equipment, and without you all (and myself) as the story tellers we cant actually bring those stories to life.

What I am getting at is I think we all could use a minute to think about how we can all best serve our communities and our customer bases while still eeking out some profit to live on.

I brought up this post becuse I felt that I was left out in the cold by a company I have long supported and patronized with my business. As a rental facility we are the first point of contact with gear for many in the industry, from kids in film school to young filmakers doing music videos and many others telling their stories for the first time. So with that being said we do somewhat expect that brands will help stand behind us if we have choosen to stand behind thier product and promote it to our customers.
A renter today is an owner tomorrow!

so the story goes on, we are working to a solution and hopefully we can bring one more G2 back into service and not in a grave!
E
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rick.lang

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Re: [Possible Resolution] No repairs on cameras over 18mo ?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 9:15 pm

Very encouraging to hear. I hope you can also work out a tiered rental pricing policy where true students may get the lowest cost tier to help facilitate their entry into filmmaking and others including your professionals will understand if they need to pay a higher tier rate. No one wants your business to suffer as you’re obviously very trustworthy about your business needs.
Rick Lang
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Re: Blackmagic no longer repairing cameras over 18mo old?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 1:00 pm

Howard Roll wrote:There's a component shortage when it comes to repair, but not when it comes to releasing 4 new cameras, a half dozen switchers, the cloud pods, and numerous other products within the last year? Somehow there were enough chips to build a few thousand Broadcast G2s.

Good Luck


The Broadcast G2 used the same sensor as the Pocket 6K.

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