4K is a general production cam??

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johnjvogel

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4K is a general production cam??

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 4:46 pm

Taken from Grant's statement:

"The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K is very different to our other cameras, but I personally think it's quite filmy in its look, even though it's not really a digital film camera but more of a general production camera."

I'm sorry, but what does that even mean?
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LoganStewartDP

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 4:49 pm

basically that its more video-ey... (dr, noise, maybe iso)
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adamroberts

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 5:40 pm

It's image has less dynamic range that the BMCC (Cinema Camera). It's in it's name... "Blackmagic Production Camera 4K". It's always been part of is make up.

It's aimed at video and broadcast production rather than cinema.
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rick.lang

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 6:11 pm

It's called a Production Camera because it includes 4K and HD video (i.e. broadcast television) support. It's up to you to decide if that precludes its use as a cinema camera. The smaller dynamic range is a concern but there is always the possibility of controlling your light to stay within the latitude of the camera's sensor. That need is of course true with the BMCC that only gives you one more stop of dynamic range. I'm sure there will be no shortage of movies that could be made with a 12-stop camera. You will need to be more aware of overly bright highlights particularly when outdoors which could be caused by the sun or even just the angle of reflection of light off smooth surfaces or white shirts on your talent. Lots of examples of blown highlights in Grant Petty's simple first footage posted, but wait until you see what cinematographers can do with the camera. I just feel it is way too soon to dismiss the BMPC4K. I'm not a pro, but I will wait to see what the cinematographers and colourists conclude over the next month or so.

As for the BMCC as a cinema alternative, it has its own Achilles Heel when some shots are spoiled by aliasing and moiré. From the first footage of the BMPC4K, the higher resolution of the different sensor appears to result in less of those aberrations. Pick your poison and make beautiful cinema.

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Mark Davies

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 7:14 pm

Looks to me like it has a lot of latitude and film like. If Grants camera had shims that were not properly adjusted then that is gobsmacking I think I can work within the dynamic range of this camera without over exposing highlights and making it all look videoey :D I also think it knocks the Canon 1DC of its perch.

Just one problem where do I pick one up?
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Kofa

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 9:17 pm

rick.lang wrote:It's called a Production Camera because it includes 4K and HD video (i.e. broadcast television) support. It's up to you to decide if that precludes its use as a cinema camera. The smaller dynamic range is a concern but there is always the possibility of controlling your light to stay within the latitude of the camera's sensor. That need is of course true with the BMCC that only gives you one more stop of dynamic range. I'm sure there will be no shortage of movies that could be made with a 12-stop camera. You will need to be more aware of overly bright highlights particularly when outdoors which could be caused by the sun or even just the angle of reflection of light off smooth surfaces or white shirts on your talent. Lots of examples of blown highlights in Grant Petty's simple first footage posted, but wait until you see what cinematographers can do with the camera. I just feel it is way too soon to dismiss the BMPC4K. I'm not a pro, but I will wait to see what the cinematographers and colourists conclude over the next month or so.

As for the BMCC as a cinema alternative, it has its own Achilles Heel when some shots are spoiled by aliasing and moiré. From the first footage of the BMPC4K, the higher resolution of the different sensor appears to result in less of those aberrations. Pick your poison and make beautiful cinema.

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Beautifully explained Rick!
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johnjvogel

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 9:50 pm

rick.lang wrote:It's called a Production Camera because it includes 4K and HD video (i.e. broadcast television) support. It's up to you to decide if that precludes its use as a cinema camera. The smaller dynamic range is a concern but there is always the possibility of controlling your light to stay within the latitude of the camera's sensor. That need is of course true with the BMCC that only gives you one more stop of dynamic range. I'm sure there will be no shortage of movies that could be made with a 12-stop camera. You will need to be more aware of overly bright highlights particularly when outdoors which could be caused by the sun or even just the angle of reflection of light off smooth surfaces or white shirts on your talent. Lots of examples of blown highlights in Grant Petty's simple first footage posted, but wait until you see what cinematographers can do with the camera. I just feel it is way too soon to dismiss the BMPC4K. I'm not a pro, but I will wait to see what the cinematographers and colourists conclude over the next month or so.

As for the BMCC as a cinema alternative, it has its own Achilles Heel when some shots are spoiled by aliasing and moiré. From the first footage of the BMPC4K, the higher resolution of the different sensor appears to result in less of those aberrations. Pick your poison and make beautiful cinema.

Rick Lang
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Well said, thanks for the info.
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Tom

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 10:45 pm

It means don't buy it, film with just bounced street light at night time, lift the footage 3 stops and complain about noise and artefacts.

Not that this should be done with the BMCC or BMPCC either.
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Dustin Albert

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostFri Dec 20, 2013 7:20 pm

Honestly, this is one of those issues where people want everything for low cost.

Sure, this camera has less DR, but it has higher res and global shutter. Which is more important to you?

Let's not forget that 12 stops of DR is nothing to frown upon. With the proper lighting and setup, your images will look amazing. That's what you should do with cinema anyway, whether it be 12 stops or 18 stops.

And let's not jump the gun and criticize or judge the images just yet. Lets wait to see what the DP's do with their compositions and lighting set ups. I want to see interiors and subject shots, before I start judging the camera's image. Not to mention fast moving shots and dollies for the global shutter testing.

Honestly, these cameras are a so cheap that you could buy both of them for still 1/8 the competition price. Plus they use the same camera body, so you wouldn't even need to buy additional rigs and lenses.

Never forget that cinema is more about the story you tell first, and the visuals second. Yes we want amazing visuals, but if you don't have a good story, they you shouldn't buy any camera because it just won't be worth it.
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Thomas Schumacher

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostFri Dec 20, 2013 7:42 pm

idut21 wrote:Honestly, this is one of those issues where people want everything for low cost.


Honestly - no one brought up money or criticism at all in this thread, maybe you start defending when defence is needed?
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LoganStewartDP

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostFri Dec 20, 2013 8:39 pm

idut21 wrote:Honestly, this is one of those issues where people want everything for low cost.

Sure, this camera has less DR, but it has higher res and global shutter. Which is more important to you?

Let's not forget that 12 stops of DR is nothing to frown upon. With the proper lighting and setup, your images will look amazing. That's what you should do with cinema anyway, whether it be 12 stops or 18 stops.

And let's not jump the gun and criticize or judge the images just yet. Lets wait to see what the DP's do with their compositions and lighting set ups. I want to see interiors and subject shots, before I start judging the camera's image. Not to mention fast moving shots and dollies for the global shutter testing.

Honestly, these cameras are a so cheap that you could buy both of them for still 1/8 the competition price. Plus they use the same camera body, so you wouldn't even need to buy additional rigs and lenses.

Never forget that cinema is more about the story you tell first, and the visuals second. Yes we want amazing visuals, but if you don't have a good story, they you shouldn't buy any camera because it just won't be worth it.


my thoughts exactly... you want it all go grab an f65, but having both or testing both and choosing which one suites your needs based on what story you're trying to tell is what is important. The 4k BMPC isn't a replacement or upgrade for the 2.5k BMCC its just geared towards different goals. It would be awesome if they made another one geared towards slo-motion :D (240fps 720, 120fps 1080 pocket cam?)
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cobydax

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostFri Dec 20, 2013 10:00 pm

I copied this text directly from BMD's product page for the 4k camera:
blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k
_______________________________________________________________
"Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
World’s most portable 4K digital film camera!"

"Shoot Ultra HD TV or 4K feature films with the new Blackmagic Production Camera 4K."

"Now you can shoot the most amazing high resolution music videos, episodic television productions, television commercials, sport, documentaries, interviews and feature films."

"All this dynamic range is captured into ProRes or CinemaDNG files at 4K resolution, so images retain a
beautiful film look."

"Blackmagic Production Camera 4K includes advanced technologies for high resolution Ultra HD TV and 4K film production."
_______________________________________________________________

So, according to their own product description, this puppy is ready for feature films!
And I believe EVERYTHING that website states.
Including:

"Shipping July"
"Shipping August"
"Shipping September"
"Shipping Q4"

:}>
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Dustin Albert

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostFri Dec 20, 2013 10:58 pm

gmf wrote:
idut21 wrote:Honestly, this is one of those issues where people want everything for low cost.


Honestly - no one brought up money or criticism at all in this thread, maybe you start defending when defence is needed?


Honestly, maybe not read these threads when you're preloaded with the mind-set of picking a fight.

The person that posted this clearly got alarmed when they saw the "general production camera" comment. It's because a lot of people seem to think that Blackmagic cameras are the answer to all their problems, but that simply isn't the case. Instead of honing in on a comment, one should look at all the evidence, and decide for him/herself.

And I base my comments not only on this particular thread, but from everything that I read on these forums, so yes I bring a little bit of that over. When I read the initial post on this thread, it felt to me like one of those issues.

Finally, I don't think there really is a definitive "cinema camera" in literal terms. Technically, you can shoot a narrative on anything. You decide which tool you want to use, and shouldn't rely on what other people think because that doesn't matter.

My overall advice to everyone, is ignore all the comments. All the negativity. All the non-sense, and only look specifically at the images, and download the files and play with them yourself and decide if YOU think it's right for YOU. If you read too much into the specs and other peoples opinions, you'll never be satisfied with anything, or get anything done for that matter.
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johnjvogel

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostThu Jan 02, 2014 9:39 pm

Well this has gotten interesting. To clarify, my post had nothing to do with money. I was simply asking the question of the camera being called a "general production" cam.

Since I own the BMCC EF version I've been using it for Commercials, Interviews, - Anything in a mostly controlled setting and wouldn't hesitate to use it on a film. I would not use it in anything that's mostly "Run and Gun"/ENG style which is what I generally think of when using the term "General Production". I saw the BMCC EF model on a rig setup for ENG style at their LA conference and thought, "I'll just go buy a *fill in the blank - Sony Z7U* camera instead". There's a camera for every job and a job for every camera.

Maybe it's just bad marketing on their part. And maybe we need to wait and see what comes out right after they start shipping this version, and for $1000 less than what everyone paid.
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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostFri Jan 03, 2014 2:06 am

I find it really funny that so many people are complaining about 12 stops of dynamic range in a 4K camera with global shutter that only cost 4 grand.....like wow. 2 years ago the 7D and 5D were kings to some people and you cant even compare the prores HD of this camera to the HD of those yet alone the 4K Raw. People need to understand one thing, this is not a RED or a SONY F55 or whatever. What it is, is an amazing camera that will open a ton of doors and produce a ton of amazing content. I myself shoot action sports, the lack of slow mo hurts but for 4 grand you cant say much. My hopes are at NAB they come out with a external device of some sorts that plugs into the 6G-SDI to up frame rates.
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johnjvogel

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostFri Jan 03, 2014 4:38 am

Russ447 wrote:I find it really funny that so many people are complaining about 12 stops of dynamic range in a 4K camera with global shutter that only cost 4 grand.....like wow. 2 years ago the 7D and 5D were kings to some people and you cant even compare the prores HD of this camera to the HD of those yet alone the 4K Raw. People need to understand one thing, this is not a RED or a SONY F55 or whatever. What it is, is an amazing camera that will open a ton of doors and produce a ton of amazing content. I myself shoot action sports, the lack of slow mo hurts but for 4 grand you cant say much. My hopes are at NAB they come out with a external device of some sorts that plugs into the 6G-SDI to up frame rates.



Well said Russ
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Samjack

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Re: 4K is a general production cam??

PostFri Jan 03, 2014 8:47 am

Why does people get so hung up about the name? It is just a marketing name like any other and nothing to do with the camera's ability for any particular purpose.

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