Red look Orange in video mode.

Just got BMCC in we are using it for some live green screen stuff in video mode running in to a casparcg server.

My red hoodie looks orange.... Looks perfectly red on canon 600d with same lens etc.

Is this a known issue.. is there a fix on the way?

Thanks.

It's a known issue. It should be only on the screen. Red is red when it's actually recorded.

Its orange on the SDi Out

Unfortunately there is an issue as you've discovered, when in VIDEO mode.

You could switch to FILM mode but you then have a very LOG image. You may be able to work around this by putting a normalizing LUT onto the output.

JB.

I have a decklink duo. Is it possible to add a LUT on the input so I can use it in film mode?

This issue could be fixed with a firmware update....if they would care to do so.

This sadly occurs regardless of whether you're using the VIDEO or FILM mode when recording ProRes/DNxHD.

Because of whatever magical colour science BMD is doing, red's simply always look very orange. Just like all the audio issues - BMD is aware of the problems, but there is no information on if or when these things will be addressed.

This can be easily corrected in post, however as you're trying to do live green screen work, my suggestion would be to follow John's advice, and shoot LOG, then apply a LUT between the camera and your CasparCG Server using something such as the HDLink Pro. Unfortunately the controls within CasparCG Server simply aren't powerful enough to do the correction you need in real time. Or... just stick with your 600D.

Some users have reported that this MIGHT have been fixed in the 1.5.1 firmware even though it's undocumented. I'll do some tests tomorrow and find out.

Nope, until 1.5.1 there is nothing changed in the way color - especially red - is recorded. I'm trying to create a profile for my XH-A1 to match the BM(P)CC color mix, but the reds are giving me a very hard time.

I think that is related how you software interpret the footage. In avid for example is possible to fix it without and CC. You just have to change source settings (right click on a clip in the bin and choose source settings) and I get red as pure red from dnxhd video log. Just don't remember what I choose there but it's possible.

I'm recording ProRes for the time being, and some of my work is long recordings with short turnaround times, e.g. the x-mas musical on december 17th that had to be under the tree at xmas day - that's why i want to get my sources to be as similar as possible to beginn with. Canons XH-A1 can emulate a lot of looks in-camera, and as it records HDV 8bit i'd like to "bake in" the look at recording time, this way i'll have a lot less trouble later and can do without an explicit grading pass, for these pro-bono projects anyway (the grandmas and grandpas don't desire cinematic brilliance, they just want to see their grandchildren look nice on stage...).

I had no trouble creating presets to make the Canon look like our Sony cams, but the colors of my beloved Pocket cam are a lot harder to reach, and that's not due to less dynamic range, but because the reds im BMD cameras strongly tend to drift into orange / brown.

Jason did some tests, and you're right. Sadly nothing has changed.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15689&start=150#p107392

I recall a few knowledgeable people saying the red to orange (r2o) problem was only in Video mode and that Prores shot in Film mode would not have the r2o. Am I now hearing that anything shot in Prores is going to suffer r2o?

I don't know if this is the same issue, or if it is an issue at all, i haven't recorded anything in video mode yet. I'm recording ProRes in film (log) mode, only my display is set to video mode for better visibility. I don't find the reds to be too orange, but they definitely tend more into orange than with any other camera i own.

We do the same as Mac - we shoot everything in FILM mode when using ProRes/DNxHD. Anything we shoot that's red, definitely looks orange in post. For example, we did a shoot a few months ago with a clown - his red nose and red hair DEFINITELY looked bright orange when reviewing the ProRes files. You can easily fix it in post however.

Hey Chris, when you fix it in Resolve, do you just rotate the hue by 10-15 degrees? Or do you do some type of secondary grade selecting the orange values?

Thanks,
Clark

I don't know how Chris does it, but here's my take on the subject: Because all other colors seem to be just about right and don't need much changing, i use the "Hue vs. Hue" curves panel to move only the reds (and surroundings) a little. Works very well, without severe sideeffects.

I'm kind of torn about it. Having red red's would be nice. But, I love the color science, orange reds aside. If they change it, will it loose the "magic" feel that I love so much about the camera? Will the "film like" look change and become more video-ish causing more post work to try to get the magic back?

As a side note I have a couple of HPX170's that match the color of the BMCC ProRes very closely. Orange reds and all. They cut very nicely with minimal work. I would hate to loose the color match, they work great as B and C cams .

Hey Chris, when you fix it in Resolve, do you just rotate the hue by 10-15 degrees? Or do you do some type of secondary grade selecting the orange values?

Normally we just adjust the Hue via the "Colorista II" plugin in Premiere. We don't use Resolve that much for ProRes BMCC jobs because we normally have tight turn-arounds.

If they change it, will it loose the "magic" feel that I love so much about the camera?

I don't think so. All we're doing is slightly adjusting the Hue - it doesn't affect the overall feel - it just makes reds actually look red.

As a side note I have a couple of HPX170's that match the color of the BMCC ProRes very closely.

Can you post some example images? Maybe I'm crazy - but I've personally never seen a camera that makes red's look THIS orange. Try shooting a job with Ronald McDonald in it and see what the client says!

@ Chris:

Thanks for the heads up. I will give Colorista a try. I have only been able to get slightly less orange in my feeble attempts so far. We just got the camera and haven't had time to give it the attention it needs.

The match comes when I shoot with the HPX170 preset "filmic", I believe. It's downloadable from the Panasonic site. The reds are very orange on the preset, but I usually don't shoot anything that needs to be extremely color specific so it hasn't driven me completely insane... Yet. And it has been my favorite look from that camera. Of course if I were shooting something that had to be red I would change things in camera.

I will upload some examples of the two cameras when I get to the office. We just shot an event where someone was wearing a very red sweater.... It is now very orange. BTW: I shot ProRes Film mode on the BMCC and used the BM LUT in Resolve. I haven't tried Video mode yet.

"Normally we just adjust the Hue via the "Colorista II" plugin in Premiere. We don't use Resolve that much for ProRes BMCC jobs because we normally have tight turn-arounds."

That would explain why my green screens lean more to the cyan with this camera than my other cameras. It really hasn't caused a problem with the key, but it does explain a lot.

I don't know how Chris does it, but here's my take on the subject: Because all other colors seem to be just about right and don't need much changing, i use the "Hue vs. Hue" curves panel to move only the reds (and surroundings) a little. Works very well, without severe sideeffects.

Thanks Mac! I will give that a try.

I had a difficult colour to shoot today. Deep red stained glass.

Here's some grabs from three different cameras, none of them got the colour right. Camera C was the closest in the top right window, but they were all too "pink". The red SHOULD have been the colour of the RED of the display in the far right of camera C.

Try to guess which camera is which.

Camera A.jpg (289.84 KiB) Viewed 7219 times

Camera B.jpg (575.69 KiB) Viewed 7219 times

Camera C.jpg (583.19 KiB) Viewed 7219 times

jb

Try to guess which camera is which.

Camera A.jpg

Camera A is a Blackmagic?

I can't exactly tell. Maybe the colour coming off the wall, that looks kind of beige yellowish shade, be mixing with that from the stained glass and throwing colours off?

I wouldn't like to say,

Jules

@JB: Wow, tough call. I would have to guess A is BMCC.

@ Chris: Here are the two shots you asked about. Sorry it took so long. The world is frozen here. This is a red sweater. The first shot is the BMCC - ProRes Film mode - BMCC LUT in Resolve. The Second is the HPX170 Filmic Preset - Exposure adjustment only.

BMCC Prores Film Mode-BMCC LUT in Resolve

BMCC-Prores-Film.jpg (555.26 KiB) Viewed 7166 times

HPX170 Filmic Preset-Exposure adjustment only

HPX170_Filmic.jpg (392.76 KiB) Viewed 7166 times

If I were a betting man...I'd say Cam C is BMCC.

Camera A---> Alexa

Camera B---> Leica M8 (same sensor linage as the DB)

Camera C--> iPhone 5s

jb

I thought C was familiar...just my OTHER cam xD

@JB: Wow, tough call. I would have to guess A is BMCC.

@ Chris: Here are the two shots you asked about. Sorry it took so long. The world is frozen here. This is a red sweater. The first shot is the BMCC - ProRes Film mode - BMCC LUT in Resolve. The Second is the HPX170 Filmic Preset - Exposure adjustment only.

Hi Dwight.

If you're shooting FILM but then applying the BMD LUT in Resolve, this is basically the same as shooting VIDEO in the first place.

Have you tried other LUT's like HOOKS or doing your own LUT ?

jb

Hi Dwight.

If you're shooting FILM but then applying the BMD LUT in Resolve, this is basically the same as shooting VIDEO in the first place.

Have you tried other LUT's like HOOKS or doing your own LUT ?

jb

Hi John,

Thanks, that makes sense.

I haven't had the camera very long and sadly haven't had a chance to work with it as much as I want. The three shoots I have had with it so far have been fast turn-around events. And since the colors from the BMD LUT match the HPX settings so well I haven't explored the issue in depth yet.

Time is opening up soon, thankfully. I am looking forward to digging further into resolve with BMCC footage.