4k Shipping

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Ben Wells

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4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 03, 2014 5:56 pm

I know this has been gone over multiple times so forgive the redundancy of the post.

If you don't mind moderators could you please keep this post in cinematography. I think its something that's important to all of us.

Do we have any realistic dates on when we can expect to actually have the 4k in our hands?

I am very happy that we finally have some images to look at and work with as delayed as they may have been. That being said I know we are all waiting patiently to have this camera in hand and I am just curious if anyone has an idea when they will reach us? Not bad mouthing the company I'd just like an updated estimate. Obviously we are closer then we were in July but what does this actually translate to for the consumer. Grant? Terry? Any of the beta testers have an idea?

Thank you,
Ben
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David Dearing

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 03, 2014 6:31 pm

Q4. Oh wait, that ended Tuesday...
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Scott Pultz

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 03, 2014 7:30 pm

c131frdave wrote:Q4. Oh wait, that ended Tuesday...


Only 9 more months until the next one!
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shanepeters@bellsouth.net

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 03, 2014 7:36 pm

OP, good luck with this request. They cannot even tell us when to expect a firmware upgrade for the 1st camera released. BM will not put down any promises that they might not be able to keep, even if it means giving themselves some kind of goal to drive towards (like releasing a firmware update for the BMCC)
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Alex Tissot

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 03, 2014 8:58 pm

c131frdave wrote:Q4. Oh wait, that ended Tuesday...


Haha!!!
Q4 means that it would have been shipped from the 1st october or later on the 31 of december!!!

After, it's an other fail !!!

...As usual it's not respected and not justified by BMC!

All the distributors are waiting for official informations for customers...
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Blaine Russom

Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 1:44 am

Seriously though guys, it's not like we are waiting for food to be brought to the table.. it can wait. Meanwhile work on some projects. No offense..

There are already two great cameras to rent or purchase. Its not the end of the world.
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bhook

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 1:52 am

My Son (back in his teenage angst days) used to tell me: "Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies." What do you want them to say? Two weeks? July? December? Q4? :lol:
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Jules Bushell

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 6:13 am

Isn't it not the same process as for the BMCC or BMPC?

Beta testers get the BMPC4K for a month or two.
BMD say they are shipping when in reality they shipped a couple to US distributor.
Takes a week or two to clear customs and get it the two US retailers.

At this point, pray there are no major issues found else back to start.

Takes about 3 months or more to clear up backlog on pre-orders.
Eventually Europe get their first cameras.

Cameras now in stock worldwide.
It's 2015.

Jules
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Mark Davies

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 9:48 am

Footage has been released. Two issues found 1) Sunspots 2) lens shims So all they have to do is make them now. I imagine limited shipping could begin two weeks after the xmas break IE Jan 15th sounds like a good prediction.
Mark Davies
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Samjack

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 9:54 am

In your hand? If you preordered on the day of announcement 18th April, with Adorama in the USA, you might expect it around middle May or early June. I take my estimate from previous cameras released by BMD. Shop demos could possibly arrive around NAB 2014.
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Alex Tissot

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 2:01 pm

So WHY did they announced July and then Q4?

They should not give any date, juste communicate as "developing this kind of camera..."

They gave hope and didn't respect they commitment, it's not the first time!
It's not normal!
They should realized that on the 28 or 29 of december they will not respect their second shipping announcement...

Why didn't they communicate, explain and apologize?

This point is unacceptable from a company for customer who pre-ordered in shop 9 month ago, unacceptable for the distributors and store!!!

I like to work with my BMCC2.5K EF and my Pocket but I really don't understand the BMC's way of communication!

It's just "false buzz" and "misleading advertising"
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David Dearing

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 2:50 pm

I believe they announced the earlier date because the original alfa camera had a different CMOS in it than the current beta. The new chip had read quirks that were different than the original. I'm guessing it's a brand new chip, and they had a hell of a time getting it to work properly. But that's a guess.
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David Regenthal

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 3:26 pm

Call me crazy but I think they announced based on what they hoped to be able to do (what a concept)?

Naturally unanticipated things came up (not like we haven't been through this before), which caused universal disappointment . . . Which, as evidenced in this forum, is characterized (or not) in many different ways.
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Mark Davies

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 5:49 pm

The important thing is not whether its late or not but communication. Although now I feel enlightened enough to trust they will get it done at some point.
Mark Davies
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Ben Wells

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 6:48 pm

Thank you for all of the responses. I certainly appreciate all of your different points of view. Fingers crossed its sooner rather than later.

Ben
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Ben Wells

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSun Jan 05, 2014 3:43 pm

Bump
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Alex Tissot

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Jan 07, 2014 1:22 pm

Why did they officially announced "Shipping Q4"?
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Adam Simmons

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Jan 07, 2014 1:46 pm

alexvideo23 wrote:Why did they officially announced "Shipping Q4"?

Because they were hoping to get it out by then, but due to unforeseen circumstances it got delayed.
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Alex Tissot

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Jan 07, 2014 3:17 pm

Adbear wrote:
alexvideo23 wrote:Why did they officially announced "Shipping Q4"?

Because they were hoping to get it out by then, but due to unforeseen circumstances it got delayed.


Why did they always failed their announcements?
Didn't they can learn from the past...???
It's a shame.
Everybody believe the announcement and they explained their fail very late after !!!

Biggest or even smallest company don't communicate like this!!!

#Disrespect
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Jules Bushell

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Jan 07, 2014 6:05 pm

alexvideo23 wrote:Why did they always failed their announcements?
Didn't they can learn from the past...???
It's a shame.
Everybody believe the announcement and they explained their fail very late after !!!

Biggest or even smallest company don't communicate like this!!!

#Disrespect

Alex its been said by Grant's sticky post. His quote
"As I have mentioned previously we have been working hard on redesigning part of the camera due to differences in the production sensors to what we experienced in the early camera builds, however that work is completed now and we are in final testing. "

That's why they missed their shipping to distributors date.

Jules
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Alex Tissot

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 10:37 am

Jules Bushell wrote:
alexvideo23 wrote:
Alex its been said by Grant's sticky post. His quote
"As I have mentioned previously we have been working hard on redesigning part of the camera due to differences in the production sensors to what we experienced in the early camera builds, however that work is completed now and we are in final testing. "

That's why they missed their shipping to distributors date.

Jules


Thanks for your vision,

but the Grant's post is not very precise at all about the shipping!

Strange and not pro for someone who's very prod to annouced during the 2013 NAB that his revolutionary product will be available in July...

After all the announces:
July shipping: Sensor problem...
September shipping: Redesigning part of the camera/Sensor problem.
18 Dec 2013: Work is completed, final testing, first Prores.
Q4 shipping: FAILED and not justified since 31 of december...

Now, it's grotesque not to address the subject of an official "expected" shipping!
And play dead with "Shipping Q4" as the only official news on the BMC website :-).

It's just their big problem of communication!
That's why we're unfortunately debating all together on this forum.

Thanks to Granta Claus to listen to the request of his consumers and distributors just by informing them.
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Alex Tissot

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 10:08 pm

Geoff Baxter wrote:"grotesque". Really!


Yes Geoff, happy that you also know this word and share my opinion.

They just could informe us...

Regards
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Sean Hegarty

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 10:35 pm

The week before NAB 2014 I think you will see the first ones shipped. Just like the cinema camera last year. That way they won't have to answer any questions at their booth about when it will be available and they can focus on whatever gadgets they will have to be available for July 2014 (LOL).
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Tvshooter

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 3:05 pm

Ya know guys….it's not just BMD that announces new products then can't deliver on time. Last NAB, I saw multiple products, things I wanted to buy right then….all either "prototype" or "not shipping till Q whenever".

It's just getting worse each year….someone will announce a product they have no intention of releasing anytime soon, just to create buzz at the show. Everyone was all gaga over the 4K BMD announcement, articles were written about the great accomplishment that 4K was now available (?) at an affordable price, and blah blah, so on.
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Kyle Gordon

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 5:05 pm

This is all so funny to me. It's right and wrong at the same time.

Here's the wrong part:

People blast BM for not communicating when things will be developed. That makes sense. People want to know when products will be released or updated.

AND

People blast BM for not making their posted deadlines. That makes sense. People want to know when products will be released or updated.

But you can't be mad that they won't tell you because they're worried they won't make the deadline, and at the same time be mad when they DO tell you and don't make the deadline.

At that point, you're actually just mad that they aren't faster.

BM isn't Canon. They don't have the next 4 years already mapped out. They aren't holding back features of the camera they're going to sell you in two years, in order to make you buy an intermediate camera. If they did that, they'd have amazing lead time on their products, and be able to do things like... announce and fulfill deadlines with "professional" accuracy.

BM is trying to push the envelope. They rattled the market big time. Then they dropped the price on the BMCC. People read this as a sign that the 4k camera would outclass it in all ways, and BM was worried theyd have to eat stock in a camera no one wanted anymore.

But clearly BM knew they weren't about to release the 4k camera. So if their strategy was to give time to clear out the BMCC stock, why not release the firmware upgrades everyone's been asking for? That'd sell more BMCC cameras easily wouldn't it?

I think theres a MUCH simpler and less paranoid answer:

BM isn't a big company and they're building it as they go.

They encounter problems, and then they have to fix them. They probably only have so many technicians etc on staff. If theyre trying like heck to fix something about the 4k camera, then the firmware for the BMCC takes a back seat.

It's less than ideal. But it's the reality of a company that's innovating, and doesn't have a long timeframe R&D pipe. It's great for us, because it provides cameras, and it challenges the marketplace. Maybe somewhere right now, Canon is moving their timetable up for something by a year or two because of the pressure BM puts on them?

At any rate, it all makes sense to me.

THe only thing is that it might be helpful if BM had more regular communication about the status of things. We'd like to think that if they said (hypothetically) "Wow the sensors are looking really bad and we need to figure out what the hell to do to fix this disaster" do you think we would all take that information like adults?

Maybe we've lost our right to be in the loop precisely because we get so upset when they DO post information and then things change, we act like customers of a large company?

Anyway no other company tells us what they're doing ahead of time. The thing that's got some of us so mad is that they DID tell us a little early, and now it's turning out to be less than correct because the info was early?

Let em do what they do. When a product you like becomes available, buy it :)

Meanwhile, upgrading the BMCC firmware sure would go a long way to selling me a camera. That and a powered speedbooster type mount that lets me put EF lenses on a MFT BMCC :)
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Michael Weathersby

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 5:40 pm

I can't hear what you are saying over my false sense of entitlement ;)
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Mark Davies

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 8:48 pm

Well I'd be happy to be told the camera was late for such and such a reason rather then being left in limbo land. While waiting for the Pocket cam I felt like I was walking towards a mirage because of the lack of communication. However now I have the pocket camera I feel at ease about waiting for the 4K.

I suppose for people like me pro gear like this has been out of reach for so many years and it was a bit of a torment for all the above reasons.

I do think BM should give people updates even though it results in a few who get mad because the camera is late. They should bear in mind that the vast majority would feel a lot better being kept in the loop
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Jules Bushell

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 9:13 pm

We're living in the instant information age where people's attitudes towards waiting for anything has changed in our brains.

which is at total odds with the slow process of research, design, development, implementation and testing of new products.

I just hope we don't lose the ability to be patient. You can make such terrible decisions if everyone reacted instantly to things all the time.

Jules

P.S. I waited 11 months for my BMCC ;)
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bhook

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 9:28 pm

"Shipping in July" has very little to do with customer patience.
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Jules Bushell

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 9:46 pm

For great things, sometimes you have to wait unfortunately. Life seems to throw up these obstacles at you.

Jules
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Mark Davies

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 9:57 pm

Jules Bushell wrote:We're living in the instant information age where people's attitudes towards waiting for anything has changed in our brains.

which is at total odds with the slow process of research, design, development, implementation and testing of new products.

I just hope we don't lose the ability to be patient. You can make such terrible decisions if everyone reacted instantly to things all the time.

Jules

P.S. I waited 11 months for my BMCC ;)

Can we get rid of this blaming everyone but BM. Its a little creepy as well as changing the goal posts. Here is a little reminder.

Most people don't mind waiting if they are kept in the loop. That has nothing to do with patience and all to do with respect trust and good manners.
Mark Davies
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Ryan Best

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 11:02 pm

Dinner In 4K.png
"let me do my job, otherwise it's sun spots for everybody"
Dinner In 4K.png (927.89 KiB) Viewed 13242 times


Communication hasn't been fantastic, BMD can improve here, no question - but what they have done and continue to do for aspiring filmmakers around the world - I salute this man! and the entire team responsible for bringing us these fantastic products!
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Ben Wells

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 11:11 pm

I don't think anyone is bashing BM for their innovations. Obviously we wouldn't be here if that was the case. I think people, myself included, are just looking forward to receiving the product they ordered. I understand that things take time but a delivery date is just that a delivery date . When we make a decision to go with a product that is always a factor.

If I ordered a pizza and they said it would be there in 45 minutes well I am going to be annoyed if I don't get it until next week. Hey maybe they ran out of sauce. I get it. Stuff happens. Tomato famines are running rampant. Just tell me you're out of sauce and when you'll have it again and I'll order then. I really like your pizza but I could have gotten a damn tombstone while I waited. I know! I know! A sophisticated piece of technical equipment isn't a pizza but the expected delivery principle still applies.
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Ryan Best

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 11:35 pm

My whole thing is FORM FACTOR.

If the BMCC EF was not shipped on the scheduled date, the BMCC MFT was not shipped on the scheduled date, the BMPCC missed it's scheduled date - even the BMCC handles were released late. Surely, and I mean surely - one must begin to take the scheduled release dates with a pinch of salt.

However, make no mistake - THIS IS NOT GOOD PRACTICE by BMD, their customers expect and deserve better - especially those who have put down hard earned £££ to hold their places in-line at local/online retailers.

For me communication is key, and this is where BMD must improve.
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Jules Bushell

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 11:41 pm

I'm still confused.

You all should be smiling! The camera is officially in beta and beta testers have been uploading footage and it looks fantastic for the price. You want better quality, you have to spend 5x as much.

Its almost time to ship (a few weeks or a month or two I think). As I said, just be a little patient. Then it will be the whole cycle of shipping and customs, clearing back orders etc. etc. Now that could take a while.

So why so glum and wanting to blame BMD? The only update you want now is, it's shipping surely.

If BMD come back with sensor problems, then start worrying. For now, things seem very rosy indeed that this revolutionary camera is almost upon us. But I am a glass half full type of guy :)

Jules
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Ryan Best

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 11:44 pm

Jules Bushell wrote:I'm still confused.

You all should be smiling! The camera is officially in beta and beta testers have been uploading footage and it looks fantastic for the price. You want better quality, you have to spend 5x as much.

Its almost time to ship (a few weeks or a month or two I think). As I said, just be a little patient. Then it will be the whole cycle of shipping and customs, clearing back orders etc. etc. Now that could take a while.

So why so glum and wanting to blame BMD? The only update you want now is, it's shipping surely.

If BMD come back with sensor problems, then start worrying. For now, things seem very rosy indeed that this revolutionary camera is almost upon us. But I am a glass half full type of guy :)

Jules


+1
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Mark Davies

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 11:50 pm

Its really weird how you make a legitimate complaint that BM doesn't talk to those patiently waiting when it misses its ship by date often by a very long time and you get a whole load of posters queuing up to either bash the complainer or praise the company.

This really is weird behaviour on a website. But it is very common.

In real life maybe sucking up to the boss or influencing situations works but it is far more subtle and better hidden.

The rewards seem to be if you want to climb the ranks and be a foot soldier for those who hold power IE Intelligence or in charge Maybe you could even get to beta test software or cameras but I think it is fairly certain beta testers are chosen for their knowledge and ability to apply that knowledge to posts and to be so outrageously obvious poodles is not a nice quality in anyone's book.

I think showing appreciation and being fair minded as well as courteous goes a long way. But you should also be prepared to be honest about what is usually a pretty obvious situation and not expose yourself to looking silly.
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Re: 4k Shipping

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 11:52 pm

Jules Bushell wrote:I'm still confused.

You all should be smiling! The camera is officially in beta and beta testers have been uploading footage and it looks fantastic for the price. You want better quality, you have to spend 5x as much.

Its almost time to ship (a few weeks or a month or two I think). As I said, just be a little patient. Then it will be the whole cycle of shipping and customs, clearing back orders etc. etc. Now that could take a while.

So why so glum and wanting to blame BMD? The only update you want now is, it's shipping surely.

If BMD come back with sensor problems, then start worrying. For now, things seem very rosy indeed that this revolutionary camera is almost upon us. But I am a glass half full type of guy :)

Jules


I am smiling Jules I've got used to BM's way of doing things now but I will not sit back and be in denial about BM's shortcomings regarding speaking to people even though I now know the procedure and don't mind the wait.
Mark Davies
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Ben Wells

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 11, 2014 12:10 am

No doubt It's close. However at the end of the day when we all finally have the camera we've been waiting for and someone asks us about our experience with BMD many will surely say "They make very good products and I am happy to finally have it in my hand. But just know going in whatever they say is the shipping/release date is more than likely false. Due to whatever unforeseen circumstances arise from being a small company the shipping date is grossly over estimated and it will very very likely be many months to at least a year beyond that date." That's their reputation. That will be part of their reputation and brand for a very long time or until they prove otherwise. Which means shipping multiple new products when they say they are going to. Thats just the way it is. Patterns tend to do that.
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Mark Davies

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 11, 2014 12:17 am

Maybe people don't want to hear about complaints?

And you pre empted any reply by calling any opposition trolling and generally written by abusers. Full points for being a master.

BM took a decision not to communicate why the delays were happening or how long. So how does contacting the company help in that regard?

Further. Complaining is an integral part of our human rights Without this we would be completely dominated as a species. I'm sure you have complained as indeed we all have. As much as you may think the third reich should be mainstream some want more balance and fairness. I award myself ten points for mentioning Nazis and another ten for not complaining about the BM4K being late this time around. I should soon get a beta camera at this rate?
Mark Davies
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Ben Wells

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 11, 2014 1:13 am

I don't doubt thats true Geoff. But Intentional or not it's still a pattern is it not? A guy may show up to work late everyday and it may be because he ran into some terrible obstacle everyday. But would his boss not expect him to be late the following day? I guess it'd be a pleasant surprise if he showed up on time.
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Ryan Best

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 11, 2014 8:55 am

Ben Wells wrote:I don't doubt thats true Geoff. But Intentional or not it's still a pattern is it not? A guy may show up to work late everyday and it may be because he ran into some terrible obstacle everyday. But would his boss not expect him to be late the following day? I guess it'd be a pleasant surprise if he showed up on time.


If he kept showing up late, I would imagine he'd be sacked. Well in the real world that is.

I waited the best part of six months for my BMCC unit to arrive, while some waited much longer.

The fact is, my initial desire to have this product outweighed my desire to look elsewhere and subsequently be kept 'in the loop'. There were alternatives out there, but several factors (including price and preference) meant this was the product for me.

That said, the next step for those who TRULY don't wish to wait for BMD is to do what I didn't - and look elsewhere.
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Samjack

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 11, 2014 9:59 am

BMD should learn from Digital Bolex when keeping their customers in the loop. DB was very late with their camera, over a year later than the BMCC despite originally announce to be release back in 2012 it only just started shipping. The different is DB not made their cameras available for pre-order until it will actually ship and kept everyone inform about development updates. They treated their customers with respect and when you visit their forum and chat to the development team you always get a reply and people felt being part of it even though their camera stuck in development hell.
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Dave Perry

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostSat Jan 11, 2014 10:37 pm

Geoff Baxter wrote:Maybe there is a pleasant surprise: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17453


Now THAT is some useful info Geoff. Encouraging.

Oops! Spoke too soon. Went to the site and the 4k page is missing.
BMUM 4.6k PL, S1H
----------------------------------------------
Dave Perry Cinematographer LLC
Director of Photography • Camera Operator
2046 High Tower Dr. Unit 1
Hollywood USA 90068
daveperry.net
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jevon99

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: 4k Shipping

PostSun Jan 12, 2014 12:24 pm

It's here... think the link changed...

http://www.3dbroadcastsales.com/product ... -2014.html
Glen Jevon
www.facebook.com/glenjevon
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bhook

  • Posts: 1024
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:19 pm

Re: 4k Shipping

PostSun Jan 12, 2014 2:17 pm

The link says "Due to ship Jan 2014". I wonder where they got that? The official product page still says Q4. I'm beginning to see this as a new dynamic in which folks say anything...commitments have no meaning when they become "suggestions" and "guesses". Might ought to try to live without promises because they're lies when they go wrong.
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Alex Tissot

  • Posts: 186
  • Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:15 am
  • Location: Paris

Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Jan 13, 2014 10:28 am

Mark2929 wrote:Maybe people don't want to hear about complaints?

BM took a decision not to communicate why the delays were happening or how long. So how does contacting the company help in that regard?


+1

What does BM wait for explaining the NEW delay???
Just communicate!!!
Never seen such a mess for a company who announced a lot of nice products, but which NEVER ship in TIME!!!
Just communicate!!!

You ALWAYS promised stuff you can't realize in time...
https://vimeo.com/user5198817
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Jelle Buyens

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:45 pm

Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Jan 13, 2014 3:28 pm

Sorry for the hope on the 3dbroadcastsales site guys, but i asked if we can "physically" buy the camera and this is their reply.
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Paul@TenWingMedia

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:36 pm
  • Location: Chicago

Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Jan 13, 2014 3:43 pm

We ordered a 4k in August for our employer.
Still waiting, but the demand for 4k footage is minimal at the moment, so we've been steadily filming with 1080. I personally have the BMCC 2.5k, and have filmed a few projects with it, including a documentary series focusing on background actors.
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Artemij Leskov

  • Posts: 6
  • Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:39 pm

Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Jan 13, 2014 6:30 pm

It seems that BM just don't understand, that as soon as their competitors will be able to deliver similar products at the similar price but with good communication, they will loose their customers.

Of cause it's great that BM innovates and I think we all appreciate that.

I doubt that BM thinks that their customers just don't care what is happening with their orders and are happy to pay money and wait for undefined time period to get their products to be shipped.

P.S. And, Yes! I'm already pretty hungry for my "pizza"..
P.S.S. And now I'm afraid BM would never choose me to be a beta tester if they would read this :)
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