4k Shipping

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CaptainHook

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 7:17 am

Its been said over and over that it wouldn't ship with RAW. But otherwise this is great news for everyone. :)
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Margus Voll

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 7:17 am

I have my 2,5 k and i'm perfectly happy with it.

Locally i have no bigger output than 2k.

Just trying to estimate what would be the next step?

More fps ore something else?
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brent k

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 7:19 am

Blackmagic cinema zoom lenses would be nice.
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Margus Voll

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 7:21 am

Lenses is all different ball game from electronics.

Seems a stretch.

Maybe some other accessories like this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/24 ... cus-system
Margus Voll, C.S.I.

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AdrianSierkowski

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 7:26 am

No way of really knowing what'll be next. Higher frame rates are a possibility-- or some kind of more "video" like system, perhaps in a new form factor. No one can know for sure, but big reveal shows (Nab ect) are upcoming.
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Graham Parker

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 7:28 am

Margus Voll wrote:Lenses is all different ball game from electronics.

Seems a stretch.

Maybe some other accessories like this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/24 ... cus-system


Yeah I ended up backing that too. A great addition to the one man band I think, especially for brushless motor gimbals.
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sean mclennan

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 7:29 am

CaptainHook wrote:Its been said over and over that it wouldn't ship with RAW. But otherwise this is great news for everyone. :)


It was also supposed to ship in July, so forgive me if I thought they might have got around to that in the last 6 months.

Hopefully they do it as quickly as they did with the Pocket after it shipped.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 8:25 am

sean mclennan wrote:
CaptainHook wrote:Its been said over and over that it wouldn't ship with RAW. But otherwise this is great news for everyone. :)


It was also supposed to ship in July, so forgive me if I thought they might have got around to that in the last 6 months. Hopefully they do it as quickly as they did with the Pocket after it shipped.


Understood, but my guess is they have to wait for "final article" on the camera hardware before they can finalize a major aspect of the software (compressed RAW), as was the case with the BMPCC pocket cam.

Computer OS are the same way: The computer hardware design has to be frozen before major aspects of the OS can be finalized.

After hardware is complete they can distribute software as often as required.

Anyway, that's my guess.

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CaptainHook

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 8:32 am

sean mclennan wrote:It was also supposed to ship in July, so forgive me if I thought they might have got around to that in the last 6 months.

You make it sound like something they can "whip up" in their lunch break. :D

Don't forget, this implementation of RAW has never been done before. It's a new lossy compression (although "visually lossless") not used on the other cameras, and as Peter said hardware took longer to finalize than hoped.
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Clayton Von Isaacs

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 8:52 am

So did they dump the compressed RAW for this camera or will it have Compressed RAW in a firmware update later just not now?
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 9:01 am

daydreamersproductions wrote:So did they dump the compressed RAW for this camera or will it have Compressed RAW in a firmware update later just not now?


See today's announcement by Grant Petty:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18726

"… Initially the [BMPC-4K] will ship with ProRes recording. We are working as hard as we can to add RAW recording quickly and to build cameras so everyone gets their orders asap. …"

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Marcel Beck

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 10:04 am

Fantastic news, I'm happy with Prores 4k, I'm mostly exciting about the Super35, now getting the depth of field I want :)
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Simon_Pearldrop_Video

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 2:35 pm

Hi, guys.

My dealer has two BMD 4Ks coming in tomorrow, and I'm #1 on the list! Over the coming days, I'll be blogging on my website (pearldroo.com) about my early experiences with the camera, as well as posting the all-important footage. To say that I am a bit excited is an understatement..!
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Ben Wells

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 3:09 pm

Thank goodness. Can't even begin tell you how relieved I am to have the camera finally shipping. It's been a long wait.

Called Adorama this morning about my preorder. No news from them about a price drop yet or where I am in line but I'm sure it just takes some time. I'll check back with them in the next couple of days.

Thanks again for everyone's contributions to this thread.

Ben


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Clayton Von Isaacs

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 4:52 pm

called B&h and they said they aren't getting them in until April but that is as of right now. Since I prepaid for it, they refunded $1,000.00 back onto my card today.
Clayton Von Isaacs
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 4:58 pm

daydreamersproductions wrote:called B&h and they said they aren't getting them in until April but that is as of right now. Since I prepaid for it, they refunded $1,000.00 back onto my card today.


That's great news, Clayton!

BMD dealers worldwide must be getting hammered with calls & emails from BMPC-4K customers.

Now we wait to see what BMD means by "shipping" this time around!

Standing by …

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Clayton Von Isaacs

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 8:20 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
daydreamersproductions wrote:called B&h and they said they aren't getting them in until April but that is as of right now. Since I prepaid for it, they refunded $1,000.00 back onto my card today.


That's great news, Clayton!

BMD dealers worldwide must be getting hammered with calls & emails from BMPC-4K customers.

Now we wait to see what BMD means by "shipping" this time around!

Standing by …

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Yeah I bought the 3 year extended insurance and putting the rest toward the new mac pro with the money
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Jonny G.

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostMon Feb 10, 2014 8:27 pm

Im really excited to see the first "hand on" review.... I pre-ordered my 4K last summer but then I decided to switch to the 2.5k. Im not thinking to update since im really happy with it but Im looking forward to hear you guys :P
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Ben Wells

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Feb 11, 2014 12:24 am

Adorama has adjusted the price and I spoke with them and they "very informally" said they should have them within the next week or 2.
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Greg Best

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Feb 11, 2014 4:43 am

is COLORED MOIRE gone in the 4k?
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John Brawley

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Feb 11, 2014 11:43 am

Greg Best wrote:is COLORED MOIRE gone in the 4k?


The camera still has no OLPF but I find it's greatly reduced because there's a lot more resolution.

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christiangruner

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Feb 11, 2014 11:54 am

Greg Best wrote:is COLORED MOIRE gone in the 4k?

Color moiré will never be gone as long as one uses a color filter array in front of the sensor.

But compared to the 1080p bmcc and bmpcc you will not see it as much, as the 4k resolution will change the frequency at which the moiré appears (read, it will occur in the finer details, making it harder to spot).
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Scott Pultz

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Feb 11, 2014 3:18 pm

christiangruner wrote:
Greg Best wrote:is COLORED MOIRE gone in the 4k?

Color moiré will never be gone as long as one uses a color filter array in front of the sensor.

But compared to the 1080p bmcc and bmpcc you will not see it as much, as the 4k resolution will change the frequency at which the moiré appears (read, it will occur in the finer details, making it harder to spot).


A low pass filter will eliminate moire. Perhaps Mosaic Engineering will consider making a filter for this camera as well.
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Michael Sandiford

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Feb 11, 2014 8:21 pm

brent k wrote:I guess what I meant to say was the BMC camera's are still, in my mind, prototypes; Not yet ready for the big leagues. The features and support are a bit lacking for professional use.

In comparison to what? The SI2K, Vipers, Sony f35? Hell even the Red one and Scarlet.
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anotherfrenchy

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Feb 11, 2014 8:23 pm

France : Done !
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anotherfrenchy

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Feb 11, 2014 8:33 pm

I think >test coming soon !<
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Feb 11, 2014 8:54 pm

S-w-e-e-t!!!

:D

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Scott Pultz

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostTue Feb 11, 2014 10:35 pm

Any sightings in the USA?
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TheLightFactory

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 3:00 am

Here in Australia my dealer just called to say my camera is ready :) apparently I was 3rd in the pre-order queue.
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Graham Parker

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 4:08 am

Here in New Zealand my dealer confirmed they'll receive theirs on Monday or Tuesday :) Looking forward to seeing everyones tests too.
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Eduardo Gonzalez

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 5:55 am

I'm glad for those of you who have managed to keep that deposit and hold your place in line. I cancelled mine last July. I had a feeling it would take this long. For many of you who are excited but this is your first camera I would highly advise you to RENT it first. By the way that goes for any camera. Yep even the little RX100 which I rented from Borrow Lenses.

For Blackmagic I would highly recommend the following from now on. For the next camera, whether they add better low light, or like RED the ability to shoot 5k, 4k, 3k, 2k, etc...or whatever they do, I say get the beta testers going first without saying a word to the public. Then when it's finally ready with RAW and everything with nothing pending at all. Go to the manufacturing phase. If it leaks it leaks. Who cares. The point is this, at the next big event whether it's NAB or Photokina or just randomly, Blackmagic will then announce the following; "PRESENTING OUR NEW BLACKMAGIC BLAH BLAH CAMERA, IT SHIPS TOMORROW!" And then actually ship tomorrow! People always remember the last thing you did right? Well erase the bad memory of the wait for most of us who by the time the previous one ships the next great camera came out. Just a word of advice as a business model. Don't build hype, build trust! I'm still gonna wait for the next camera but I really hope only the best for Blackmagic in the coming year.
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Jules Bushell

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 7:39 am

Eduardo Gonzalez wrote:I'm glad for those of you who have managed to keep that deposit and hold your place in line. I cancelled mine last July. I had a feeling it would take this long. For many of you who are excited but this is your first camera I would highly advise you to RENT it first. By the way that goes for any camera. Yep even the little RX100 which I rented from Borrow Lenses.

For Blackmagic I would highly recommend the following from now on. For the next camera, whether they add better low light, or like RED the ability to shoot 5k, 4k, 3k, 2k, etc...or whatever they do, I say get the beta testers going first without saying a word to the public. Then when it's finally ready with RAW and everything with nothing pending at all. Go to the manufacturing phase. If it leaks it leaks. Who cares. The point is this, at the next big event whether it's NAB or Photokina or just randomly, Blackmagic will then announce the following; "PRESENTING OUR NEW BLACKMAGIC BLAH BLAH CAMERA, IT SHIPS TOMORROW!" And then actually ship tomorrow! People always remember the last thing you did right? Well erase the bad memory of the wait for most of us who by the time the previous one ships the next great camera came out. Just a word of advice as a business model. Don't build hype, build trust! I'm still gonna wait for the next camera but I really hope only the best for Blackmagic in the coming year.

Build trust? When it comes to ownership of such a camera, it's price and features that count.

Jules
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Rolfe Klement

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 8:34 pm

CVP apparently just shipped 10 cameras...
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brent k

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 8:55 pm

Michael Sandiford wrote:
brent k wrote:I guess what I meant to say was the BMC camera's are still, in my mind, prototypes; Not yet ready for the big leagues. The features and support are a bit lacking for professional use.

In comparison to what? The SI2K, Vipers, Sony f35? Hell even the Red one and Scarlet.

I've never had a DP ask me to get a BlackMagic camera, they ask for an Alexa 90% of the time. I ask them why since I own BMC's, and they tell me dealing with the firmware wastes too much time.
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brent k

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 8:57 pm

Jules Bushell wrote:
Eduardo Gonzalez wrote:I'm glad for those of you who have managed to keep that deposit and hold your place in line. I cancelled mine last July. I had a feeling it would take this long. For many of you who are excited but this is your first camera I would highly advise you to RENT it first. By the way that goes for any camera. Yep even the little RX100 which I rented from Borrow Lenses.

For Blackmagic I would highly recommend the following from now on. For the next camera, whether they add better low light, or like RED the ability to shoot 5k, 4k, 3k, 2k, etc...or whatever they do, I say get the beta testers going first without saying a word to the public. Then when it's finally ready with RAW and everything with nothing pending at all. Go to the manufacturing phase. If it leaks it leaks. Who cares. The point is this, at the next big event whether it's NAB or Photokina or just randomly, Blackmagic will then announce the following; "PRESENTING OUR NEW BLACKMAGIC BLAH BLAH CAMERA, IT SHIPS TOMORROW!" And then actually ship tomorrow! People always remember the last thing you did right? Well erase the bad memory of the wait for most of us who by the time the previous one ships the next great camera came out. Just a word of advice as a business model. Don't build hype, build trust! I'm still gonna wait for the next camera but I really hope only the best for Blackmagic in the coming year.

Build trust? When it comes to ownership of such a camera, it's price and features that count.

Jules
Infrastructure is the biggest one for me, since you are only buying the body, it is in the company's advantage to tell you what they are going to have in the future, so you don't switch to another platform.
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rick.lang

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 9:05 pm

Creativesunshine wrote:CVP apparently just shipped 10 cameras...


With the number of people reporting that their shipments are coming soon, it seems this rollout is proceeding at a reasonable rate although we don't know how long it will be until BMD completes the ramp up to production volumes. It may well be that by the time of NAB 2014, they'll be able to say they are at production volumes.

Everyone can sympathize with Eduardo's perspective about shipping a camera the day after it is announced. But we can also see that many camera manufacturers announce products before they have an ironclad ship date. The various shows such as NAB or Photokina etc. are where the manufacturers are able to make the biggest splash with so many members of the media on hand and eager to report on major announcements. BMD and others will continue to plan their announcements around those major exhibitions.

We do know that we can't count on shipping dates from BMD until they establish a better track record with regard to cameras, but hopefully in the future these unfortunate delays will be a thing of the past and shipping estimates will become more reliable.

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domini829

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 9:37 pm

it seems all we can do is hope!
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brent k

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 10:56 pm

Geoff Baxter wrote:
brent k wrote:I've never had a DP ask me to get a BlackMagic camera, they ask for an Alexa 90% of the time. I ask them why since I own BMC's, and they tell me dealing with the firmware wastes too much time.


Can you explain that?
The software on the other cameras is more mature than on the BMD cc. You can't even delete a clip on the BMD camera. We don't consider the cost of the camera, only the efficiency of the system. Maybe firmware updates will change that, but right now BMD isn't really supporting these things yet.

Here's a question, I will give you any camera in the world free of charge, the only stipulation is you can never sell it. Which would you choose? This is the same situation we are in.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostWed Feb 12, 2014 11:12 pm

brent k wrote:... You can't even delete a clip on the BMD camera. We don't consider the cost of the camera, only the efficiency of the system. Maybe firmware updates will change that, but right now BMD isn't really supporting these things yet. ...


Is the Alexa the same in this regard (can't delete clips in-camera)?

BMD has already added features to their cameras via free FW updates, including features not initially promised or advertised, such as time lapse, and support for lens image stabilization. They've also addressed some issues (such as BMPCC blooming highlights & black highlights) fairly quickly.

True, the updates have been relatively few, and some very far between. But I suspect that for the cameras that have hardware (RAM & CPU speed) adequate to accommodate them, BMD has made a good effort to improve their cams over time through FW updates. And they have repeatedly said they intend to continue doing so.

I'd like BMD to do more, faster, too …
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=265

… but meanwhile a lot can be accomplished with the cams in their current form. YMMV.

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DavidJames

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 2:55 am

brent k wrote:Here's a question, I will give you any camera in the world free of charge, the only stipulation is you can never sell it. Which would you choose? This is the same situation we are in.


Never sell it..... I'd have to go Arricam or LT..... with no charge for stock and developing!
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Robert DelTour

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 7:21 am

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
brent k wrote:... You can't even delete a clip on the BMD camera. We don't consider the cost of the camera, only the efficiency of the system. Maybe firmware updates will change that, but right now BMD isn't really supporting these things yet. ...


Is the Alexa the same in this regard (can't delete clips in-camera)?


I'm so tired of hearing people complain about not being able to delete in camera. You can't delete a shot when you shoot on film, and these cameras are meant to be treated like film!

Peter, I can't recall if you can delete specific clips in the Alexa (there have been a few firmware updates since I've had my hands on one) but I know that you can format the cards.

I personally like the fact that you can't delete in camera, because we can finally start to combat the "shoot-then-think" mentality that has been growing since the HDSLR revolution. If you have to commit to your lighting, your operating, and your performances, you have to think more, and your art improves. That, for me, has always been why film is superior. It requires commitment to your art. /rant
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TheLightFactory

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 7:42 am

Got a knock at the door today..



Image

:D :lol:
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CaptainHook

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 7:59 am

Congrats!!
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TheLightFactory

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 8:03 am

now to get more ssd's and a proper battery ha
Mark
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 8:04 am

Thumbs up, Mark [TheLightFactory]! :D

Good shooting!

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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 8:21 am

Robert DelTour wrote:… I'm so tired of hearing people complain about not being able to delete in camera. You can't delete a shot when you shoot on film, and these cameras are meant to be treated like film!

Peter, I can't recall if you can delete specific clips in the Alexa (there have been a few firmware updates since I've had my hands on one) but I know that you can format the cards.

I personally like the fact that you can't delete in camera, because we can finally start to combat the "shoot-then-think" mentality that has been growing since the HDSLR revolution. If you have to commit to your lighting, your operating, and your performances, you have to think more, and your art improves. That, for me, has always been why film is superior. It requires commitment to your art. /rant


I appreciate your point of view.

Perhaps deleting clips from SSD media can cause performance/reliability issues? BMD cameras rely on the maximum possible data rates from the SSDs when recording & playing video files. Deleting clips might possibly cause enough fragmentation to hurt the system's stability.

In other words, aside from a philosphical reason for not allowing clip deletion in-camera, it may also be due to a choice between maximum data rates vs. reliability. Maybe you can't have both?

Formatting in-camera, if the hardware is capable of it, could be a lifesaver for times when a computer isn't handy and you gotta make an already backed-up SSD ready to work with right now. A nice to have feature, but I can live without it if need be.

-
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Ben Wells

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 2:55 pm

A quick note to anyone who ordered from Adorama. I noticed on their website that they have a bundle with handles that is the same price ($2,995) as the camera without the additional item. I called and switched my order. They guaranteed me I would not lose my place in line. Anyway just thought I'd share. The handles are a $185 dollar value.


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Randy Walters

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 3:30 pm

For what it's worth, I've found the BMD handles to be more useful than a lot of people give them credit for. I don't actually use them with my BMCC – it's just too bulky for me to use that way – but they're very nice with smaller, lighter gear like the BMPCC, etc.

If you can get them bundled with the 4K or another BMD camera, there's no reason not to go for it; I've even used mine with a shotgun mic while recording SFX.
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Dillon McEvoy

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 5:48 pm

TheLightFactory wrote:Got a knock at the door today..



Image

:D :lol:


Nice! Now throw up some test footage with that Rokinon Prime you have one there :)
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MentalNomad

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Re: 4k Shipping

PostThu Feb 13, 2014 8:23 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:Deleting clips might possibly cause enough fragmentation to hurt the system's stability.

In other words, aside from a philosphical reason for not allowing clip deletion in-camera, it may also be due to a choice between maximum data rates vs. reliability. Maybe you can't have both?-


Actually, even the shortest video clips are huge blocks, as disc sectors go, so fragmentation/drive performance is a non-factor - and that's before considering that these are SSD, not platters, so fragmentation is not a performance-impacting factor in the first place.

It's probably an intentional decision. Perhaps they should allow in-camera deletion, but make it a huge hassle, just for people who are DP - Director - Producer themselves and might desperately need to reclaim space to work.

It's not just about accidental deletion; when working as part of a larger production crew, the camera operator has no right to decide what can be deleted! From the Director's or Producer's standpoint, they'd rather buy an extra drive or two than give the camera operator the possibility of deleting something they'd want. Truth be told, you never know when you're going to lift a few critical seconds of a particular angle or a particular actor's delivery, from an otherwise "bad" take.

From the producer's standpoint, short of accidentally shooting twenty minutes of the inside of a lenscap, nothing should be deleted! Most of the cost of acquiring that footage is in the cast, crew, lighting, location, rentals, insurance - all of that has been spent when the take is done, and if you burn the take, all of that has been wasted.

Some DP's want to be able to hide their errors - the lighting needed to be fixed, the focus was off, etc, but then the editor or director want to bring some of it back - that was the best delivery of that line, or the they decided they like how the focus drew attention, etc.; when cut together with the "better" takes, it can become something really special. Sometimes errors provide something beautiful when looked at the right way.

Sorry, I'm beginning to ramble...
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