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Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:46 pm
by Bunk Timmer
Maybe in twenty years… still deep down there somewhere trying to climb up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:19 pm
by GalinMcMahon
Cool. In 20 years MAYBE I can afford a 1TB Angelbird CFast card. Maybe I could trade a box of them for an off the shelf laser hologram neutron card.

I used to work in farming automation and there was a tractor auto-steer unit that could only use up to a 64MB card (sd? CF?) That size was already obsolete then so we were paying more for those when we could find them than we would pay for the biggest and best of the day. That gives me hope that my boxes of ethernet cables and coax might eventually fund my retirement.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 2:42 pm
by Michel Rabe
Concerning deep fake technology...

I believe we will struggle 20 years from now with validation of what is true and what is not. I think institutions will have to be installed who's sole purpose is to authenticate information.

I think these "advancements" will most likely create a fundamental lack of trust in reality that mankind has never had to deal with before. It's already happening even without perfectly faked videos, audio "recordings" or "photos" and it will get a lot worse with them.

Microsoft's OpenAI now only needs a 3 second voice snippet to produce scarily good text to speech recordings.
https://valle-demo.github.io

I also believe that, as with global warming, governments will take too long to acknowledge the problems and warnings to take action. In fact they should have set up regulations similar to the human cloning act already.

Scary and tedious times ahead.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:24 pm
by ricardo marty
Ai will be to the content industry a major shift that will affect everything, below and above the line. some trades might even disappear. Actors will be relegated for a time to voice or motion capture and then only to the theatre (if holography remains undevloped} From top to bottom the content will be totally made on computers and all the skills and trades will be done on the computer. I'm sure there will be hold-out rebels but it will be a losing war. Ai could become the overlord of everything.


Ricardo Marty

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:00 pm
by Michel Rabe
It WILL become the overlord of everything if we don't install strict, global regulations, fast. But we won't, or too late. So here's to our children's struggle to distinguish real from fake.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:16 pm
by ricardo marty
Michel Rabe wrote:It WILL become the overlord of everything if we don't install strict, global regulations, fast. But we won't, or too late. So here's to our children's struggle to distinguish real from fake.


The internet experience will be tapered to your stored profile making anything you see a controlling factor.
Agreed, Meaning the results of your search and the content you ingest.
but it will very difficult to reach them and not to trust what they see, read and hear on any screen. A true nightmare.


Ricardo Marty

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:05 pm
by ricardo marty
And we are doing it to ourselves.


Ricardo Marty

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:18 am
by Robert Niessner
My prediction is that we will see the rise of AI start-ups taking over several branches by storm because AI technology will allow them to offer their service very cheap, undercutting traditional services.
I can see this happing for tax lawyers/tax accounting, notary, PR agencies, graphic designers, architects, interior designers, web design and creative industries in general.
Even for average software development.

Many will be surprised when AI will replace them because they thought that they can’t be replaced.

I can see creative work losing value a lot again. And it could make mankind lazy, uncreative, undecided, and visionless in the long run. If anybody can be a random creative without effort, no one is a creative.

We will get swamped with AI art, like we’ll get swamped with meaningless pictures and videos now.

Movies will be AI-d. You tell the AI your planned movies idea framework, then it generates several pitches based on that idea. You select one and let the AI generate characters, story line, locations. Then it generates your script. Finally you select your actors from a database and then let the AI generate everything, including music.
This could lead to a flood of mediocre and trivial movies (many more than nowadays).

I have no doubt that big studios will exploit those possibilities to the max, because you do not need actors, filming crews, locations and other things anymore. But they could recycle known actors ad infinitum.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:48 am
by Michel Rabe
They will. A silver lining, at least in the beginning, might be that the first iterations will be flawed and people quick to dismiss it. Eventually it will succeed though. Two steps forward, one step back.

But AI in art and movies isn't what I personally worry about as much as how AI will fundamentally disrupt our understanding of reality in every aspect of our lives.

How will we tackle the mass unemployment? The growing struggle to authenticate information being true or false? The social stress of having to identify anything as real or fake? The forces that will use the general uncertainty to their advantage? That will use AI to actively disrupt societies / structures? The big corps that will only gain power by leveraging their influence using AI?

We need strict, global regulations and we need them yesterday.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:07 am
by Steve Fishwick
In considering the Future of Cinematography, it is perhaps interesting to consider the past. This actual Mitchell NC Standard serial number #257, was bought by Universal Studios in 1929 and was then used for many films: from the first Oscar winner, All Quiet On The Western Front, the famous Universal horrors, the Technicolor Disney animations such as Pinocchio, Fantasia, Bambi and Dumbo (shooting each frame 3x through coloured filters, to free up actual Technicolor 3 strip cameras) through to the special effects for Star Trek, the original series and well beyond, for well over 40 years. It still works, bought by a private collector and could happily shoot on film tomorrow.

BMD released their first digital camera less than 10 years ago. Will our cameras still be working in five years? Will we even be using cameras at this rate - I know I will if I can but disruptive technologies such as AI are only going to get more prevalent, since many young people now really believe the filters on the mobiles show them as they truly are, but films will never get better told through technology alone, no matter how clever.
lf.jpg
lf.jpg (45.99 KiB) Viewed 7525 times

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:19 pm
by ricardo marty
AI has the possibility to disrupt almost everything. College students will rely on it. Then one day in the future, when everything that we do know is only vaguely remembered someone, somehow will pull the plug, and we will be left knowing nothing not even how to plug it in again.

Ricardo Marty

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:48 pm
by wemrick1
Kim Janson wrote:At 80's there was in most countries well controlled few TV channels and news paper.

But even then it looked it had come to that very fast and we had so much, some thought too much



Very few could afford any kind of camera, and even fewer publish the pictures.

At 90's we got the internet, and it took awhile to get where we are now, and it feels we have too much

Maybe it is just proof I am getting old, but difficult to see how the next 10 years can be good for anyone.

and I do love technology.

11289419_483605845128551_580045446709772226_o.jpg


The USSR had six. I got to watch them right after the USSR fell apart. Insane how different things were there.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:54 am
by Daniel Rheaume
Oh AI....

What a love hate relationship I have with the reality of it.
On one hand, if someone can provide me a tool that allows me to generate truly usable storyboards without me incompetently trying to sketch with my non-existent drawing talents? I'm all in.
I've also been toying with AI helping me to write some color grading tools to analyze reference images and output useful data (to mixed success).

I suppose I am welcoming to the idea of using AI as the tool that informs the art, but doesn't particularly produce it. A tool that speeds up the creative process of the human, but doesn't replace it. An era in which the access to tools is not the barrier in creativity, but actually one's understanding of what dissimilar pieces we can push together to make something unified and whole is the trick to creating great art.

That being said, I too fear the endless glut of mediocre, derivative images all based on the same basic algorithms. I feel it happening already. I fear that replacing an industry with generative AI patterns really just means, art will essentially slow to a trickle in its diversity and ingenuity. Those in charge of hiring for creative, whether in film, tv, or business will not find it easy to justify spending the extra time and money to create things that are novel. That's too expensive and reduces ROI. AI can generate something tolerable and safe for very little cost.

The pessimist in me sees this as just one more expression of the homogenization of all content.
The optimist in me believes there are a lot of people who will intrinsically "feel" the difference. And like vinyl is to the MP3 for a certain set of listeners, I'm truly hoping and believing there will always be some segment of people who choose art that comes about from human endeavor, instead of algorithms and averages.

The AI era may well be defined by the tastes and preferences of those who are in it.
What do we like to see? Do we care how it was made?

My rambling .02c
Best,
-Daniel

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:57 pm
by rick.lang
Having just seen Black Adam, it seems to me that no more than 30 minutes (and I’m being kind) of the movie were created by sentient beings that had a rather simple outline to flesh out in ways that might entertain another sentient being (I’m being inclusive here and not assuming a universe of only **** Sapiens) based on their experiences of how our hearts and minds work.

The entire rest of the movie was clearly fully realized by artificial intelligence artificially creating or plagiarizing visuals and audio including the music without more than programmed innovations designed to obscure their AI is only derivative. If you enjoyed the movie, fine you will enjoy your future. If you agree with any of the sentiments in this post, you only hope you live long enough for the stranglehold of the current fad to loosen its grip and allow you to enjoy a good night’s sleep that knits the raveled sleeve of care once again. Sadly for many on this forum, we’re unlikely to see that turn unless we make it happen rather than fill our minds with empty calories until our minds atrophy.

AI has been winning chess matches for decades, but not always.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:12 pm
by Greg Lee
I don’t know, but I’m guessing Black Adam was made by humans. The funny thing is, AI might actually do the job of Hollywood screenwriter BETTER. I had a seven year mini-career as a feature screenwriter, during which I and my writing partner sold a spec script which never got made, followed by years of rewrite gigs. During that time, I realized that a huge part of the job was to essentially act as a computer, synthesizing concepts and plot points from other successful movies, to create something “new”. The mantra of the studios at the time was “Fresh, but familiar”. In pitches, you would constantly reference other hit movies, to reassure executives that your idea wasn’t TOO creative, that it was essentially a blending of other, financially proven films. The term is “the Cuisinart method”, and every screenwriter does it. Just think of the cliche for pitching… “It’s (successful movie) meets (other successful movie)”. And if we’re being honest… this is EXACTLY what A.I. does incredibly well.

Just yesterday, the WGA, in the middle of pre-strike negotiations, announced that they were fine with A.I. being used to write the foundation of scripts, as long as a writer gets paid for every project. And let me tell you, if I was in that game, I’d be using the hell out of it for plot point ideation. And I guarantee that almost every working screenwriter will use it in some capacity. I would not remotely be surprised if, in the next two years, most scripts will be heavily dependent on AI plotting, even if the writers deny it.

Humans will still be needed to write the dialogue effectively, at least until A.I. gets better at humor and quirkiness. But yeah, A.I. is absolutely the future for studio-level story generation and plotting. That’s not a good thing, per se, but oddly enough, the effectiveness of the “Cuisinart method” will be far better than the human version we’ve seen so much of in the past 40 years of screenwriting.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:44 pm
by John Paines
How did you determine that AI will produce "BETTER” mash-up scripts, on the order of "_________ meets _______" than humans do? And what’s the meaning of “better”? Surely not in a literary sense? Do you mean more marketable? Or actually selling more tickets?

It wouldn't be surprising if machines prove to be better at fulfilling the expectations of movie executives than actual writers, since the writer's personal inclinations and any literary talent or taste won't interfere with the product as the executive suites conceive it, based on the screenwriting books they've read and seminars they've attended. “Plot point ideation” since you mention it, is case in point. What actual writer thinks or works that way? It's an administrative notion, as is (for example) three act structure (in mass-market movies!?! Please!).

So are the machines writing better or more profitable movies, or just better at giving executives what they think they want?

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:55 pm
by rick.lang
Sincerely thanks for the well-informed perspective.

I’m even more afraid that algorithmic scriptwriting, however effective and satisfying it may well be for many, is very dangerous. A pitch as you describe it certainly makes sense, but not a complete script or edited film that could emphasize subtle political correctness more and more over genuine value. There’s gold and there’s fools gold, they can seem close enough.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:46 pm
by Tamas Harangi
As this question keeps popping up, one thing to keep in mind is that according to the current interpretation of the law, AI generated content is not protected under US Copyright. So, at least at this point, the potential for monetization of AI art is very questionable.

Will the US Congress get together in a bipartisan fashion to completely rewrite copyright law in a way that would cover the needs for both human generated and AI content? Given that at this point no one knows what such a law would look like, and no one knows what such a Congress would look like, I won't hold my breath for that.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:56 pm
by ricardo marty
Tamas Harangi wrote:As this question keeps popping up, one thing to keep in mind is that according to the current interpretation of the law, AI generated content is not protected under US Copyright. So, at least at this point, the potential for monetization of AI art is very questionable.

Will the US Congress get together in a bipartisan fashion to completely rewrite copyright law in a way that would cover the needs for both human generated and AI content? Given that at this point no one knows what such a law would look like, and no one knows what such a Congress would look like, I won't hold my breath for that.



I beg to differ. Just read an article (cant find it) where it states that AI art cannot be copyrighted if it was just made by input in a dialogue box. it needs to have been further manipulated by the artist, say like with photoshop, ae, paint, excetera. It also said that someone copyrighted a comic book with ai generated art and said that the images by them selves cannot be copyrighted but the compilation with the storyline in the comic could be, and was. So iguess that this will apply to creative arts in general. Everything that comes out of ai has been generated by anything in the servers it feeds from and all these have creators.


Ricardo Marty

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:20 pm
by John Paines
It's usually easy to prove (for example) that a machine chose a particular sequence of chess moves, because no human would ever make such unintuitive choices. It's plain that the moves were a product of blunt force calculation, not thought.

Whether that will also be true of AI-generated stories remains to be seen. My guess is, the statistical element in AI operations will produce story lines no storytelling human would ever come up with. And just about none of them will be usable, at least not from beginning to end. What could be interesting is trying to integrate the hallucinations of the machine, plot developments which would never occur to an actual writer, into something new, a form of art-house movie prompted by the mad suggestions of machines, and enlarging audience expectations of what a story must deliver, the way a David Lynch movie can.

But as for copyright, I don't think that will deter anyone, even if anyone could prove the machine wrote every word of the script and therefore the material was public domain. Hollywood already makes the same movies over and over again. There were parodies of gunslinger Westerns as early as 1906.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:43 pm
by rick.lang
John Paines wrote:… enlarging audience expectations of what a story must deliver, the way a David Lynch movie can… Hollywood already makes the same movies over and over...


Great points, John. Except now the AI will have consumed this post and ‘understood’ that it must include unpredictable but nevertheless possible illuminating elements in its next AI story which will convince us only a creative human could have written it! Is it too late to save us, are we doomed?

The chess example got me thinking why I didn’t like the recent Banshees of Inisherin: to me it plays it’s pieces like that illogical chess game between two King pieces including the surprise escape of the Queen piece. And I wanted to like it.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:52 pm
by John Paines
Well, "Banshees" was definitely written by a human, a renowned playwright in fact, but you could argue that the senselessness of the whole thing reveals a poverty of the [human] imagination. Or too much Quentin Tarantino.

The more I think about this question, I'm convinced that (returning to David Lynch) "Mulholland Drive" was written by a machine, because in 2000+ years of recorded storytelling I don't think anyone else had ever gotten the course of the story to fully reveal itself after it was already told and without any tricks (like, say, the tricks in "The Sixth Sense").

"Structure" isn't quite the right word for it. But, if you ask me, he captured in the shape of the story something truly unique and mind-altering, never done before. The horror, hinted at throughout much of the "faux" movie, is revealed only *after* you come to see what the real story is, and no need of hokum or supernatural malarky. It's the actual story which holds the horror. But you don't know that while you're watching. What comes later alters what came before..... Very strange and satisfying. Thank ChatGPT. Or David Lynch.

the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:21 pm
by rick.lang
This is veering into the Future of Storytelling rather than the Future of Cinematography, but the streaming services that will, if not already, dominate how we consume stories, seem determined to sideline traditional 20th century visual storytelling (aka ‘movies’) for 19th century episodic literary storytelling. In the 19th century the weekly episode (aka chapter) was voraciously consumed in weekly editions as the tastiest meat in the sandwich of news and advertising. And if the stories were very popular, all the weekly chapters would likely be assembled in a ‘novel’ published afterwards.

Fast forward today and studios are delivering several times the number of weekly episodes compared to movies. And it’s seen as abject failure if you can’t milk the episodic ‘story’ for at least three seasons (years) with some stories going on for about a decade or more. In my mind, that is not as kind nor perceptive as Kim’s, I’ve come to the conclusion that these long term episodes in total should not be called a story at all. Each episode has the potential to be a story, but in most series, they fail at that as we merely experience characters and plot lines moving forward at a glacial pace for ten years.

There may be exceptions as I’m painting the scene with a broad brush. I loved the adapted Game of Thrones until the bereft lazy lunacy of the last year. I loved The Vikings until the bereft lazy lunacy of the last year. But I wish more of these strange 21st century things had a beginning, a middle, and an end (a hook, development, and a purpose achieved). Instead Game of Thrones and The Vikings subverted the purpose of everything that went before the conclusion, slapped their audience abandoned in a sadistic sewer.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:05 pm
by ricardo marty
The future of cinematography will be programs like unreal engine and ai. everything could be done in the software.


Ricardo Marty

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:18 pm
by Adam Langdon
thankfully, my line of business, mostly documentaries, are actual, authentic stories that can only be catered to and facilitated by actual people that care and want the best for the people in them.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:44 am
by Daniel Rheaume
Adam Langdon wrote:thankfully, my line of business, mostly documentaries, are actual, authentic stories that can only be catered to and facilitated by actual people that care and want the best for the people in them.


...or will AI replace documentaries with aggregated concepts of history, unverified stories, and imagery of figures that have been invented? Genghis Khan will be reanimated, Mona Lisa will tell us what her expression really was, and the founding fathers will explain that they didn't really mean for us to pursue life and liberty, but instead to pay our taxes like dutiful citizens to the monarchy!

I jest, of course. But only after reading your post did I first think about how with AI tools, history itself could become very muddled with truth, aggregate truth, and complete fiction. I suppose history is always muddled by the medium (fallible humans). But this adds another layer to it all. I sincerely hope that my joke really stays just a joke.

I appreciate the musings in this thread! It's a real beast of a thing we are just now having to really think about - and dare I say, embrace to some degree or another.

Best,
- Daniel

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:03 pm
by John Paines
Forget AI. "Actual, authentic stories" is a contradiction in terms. A story is a story. It's shaped and formed, by humans. Anyone who goes to documentaries for "truth", in any but the most trivial sense, is going to be disappointed or deceived.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:18 pm
by Adam Langdon
John Paines wrote:Forget AI. "Actual, authentic stories" is a contradiction in terms. A story is a story. It's shaped and formed, by humans. Anyone who goes to documentaries for "truth", in any but the most trivial sense, is going to be disappointed or deceived.


I regret everything.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:11 pm
by rick.lang

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 6:44 pm
by ricardo marty
Adam Langdon wrote:thankfully, my line of business, mostly documentaries, are actual, authentic stories that can only be catered to and facilitated by actual people that care and want the best for the people in them.



That's great but not all documentaries are like yours. And even yours could bebefit from AI a lot. If the interview cant make it get his permmission and create him in AI and generate his approved lines also with AI. the posibilities are endless.

Ricardo arty

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 9:19 pm
by rick.lang
That is known as Deep Fake. It has no place in a documentary unless the audience knows the subject is deceased and in the so-called documentary the subject is brought back to ‘life’ to either quote from material spoken or written by the subject will alive. That’s clearly not a documentary but may fly as a biopic such as Blonde.

I just think your suggestion crosses the red line of Integrity and passes into a form of Propaganda. Please think about the consequences of what you are saying. A documentary aspires to be the best form of ‘journalism on film,’ but it’s not worth watching if one cannot know what’s true or false.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 11:02 pm
by ricardo marty
rick.lang wrote:That is known as Deep Fake. It has no place in a documentary unless the audience knows the subject is deceased and in the so-called documentary the subject is brought back to ‘life’ to either quote from material spoken or written by the subject will alive. That’s clearly not a documentary but may fly as a biopic such as Blonde.

I just think your suggestion crosses the red line of Integrity and passes into a form of Propaganda. Please think about the consequences of what you are saying. A documentary aspires to be the best form of ‘journalism on film,’ but it’s not worth watching if one cannot know what’s true or false.



Yes and no. If the person cant make it and he or she gives authorization and you use some previously recorded material or an ai generated image and the persons approved writing I see no problem if you give notice.


Ricardo Marty

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 11:46 pm
by rick.lang
Right now in the 21st century, as the new technologies associated with artificial intelligence are being applied in tools for creatives, it’s like the Wild West in the 19th century. In those days whoever was most willing to use their firepower to force their will upon others ruled. I’m sure they all had rationales to justify their approach as that’s human nature. There were laws in some jurisdictions but often an inability to enforce those laws. And in new territories there was often an absence of any laws for decades as settlements spread faster than wildfire. It does take time for management of capabilities to develop. Say a few centuries in some cases.

Today many are rushing into the new territory of AI eager to take advantage where they can for their own good while the societal structures, cultural mores, and laws don’t seem defined or able to act as an effective constraint. It’s up to you at this time to be very careful and do no harm with your creations likely to influence how we learn, what we learn, and why we are or become what we eat.

AI Deep Fake can be powerful, but is it the truth? Where is it appropriate?

Nothing inherently wrong with pretending, with fantasy, with fiction; augmented reality is useful and harmless only when you know it’s augmented. Artificial intelligence as a tool has the capability to appear to be intelligent, even imperceptible, but we will lose something when verisimilitude replaces reality. You’re not talking about a Marvel Universe background when you apply AI to your documentary subject’s content.

Will we see the day when AI is awarded Best Editing or Best Score or Best Actor at the Oscars? Don’t think that you’re in control today because you asked an app to grade your film as Film Noir and edit your film as Suspense and score your film as Conflict.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 12:30 am
by Uli Plank
Don’t worry much about documentaries, we may soon have deceased politicians for president.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 12:54 am
by rick.lang
Appreciate your comment. Both humorous and terrifying.

the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 8:07 pm
by rick.lang
Kim Janson wrote:… I long thought it was about actual historic events, but maybe not, anyway it is about first time going to fight and only few returning and rebuilding their lives. For that it does not really mater if it actually happened or not, it is the same story...


In the context of a drama, even based on actual events, say the dropping of the atomic bombs in WWII, characters have a life of their own in telling the story. So some may be very accurate and some may be a composite of several real people and some may be invented to fill a role in the story. We understand that and are ‘entertained’ by the telling of a story.

In the context of a documentary of actual events, say the dropping of atomic bombs in WWII, we aren’t entertained as much as we are informed within the limits of human memories and available evidence that was accessible. We know it’s virtually impossible to know the whole truth and see all sides of a story, but it matters very much that we are not misled intentionally or by the error of omission to educate a viewer with a fair perspective within the telling of that story.

I simply don’t trust AI to tell that story well.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:50 am
by robert Hart
Another remote chance consequence could be driven by severe postwar/post COVID economic stringencies/climate induced world economic failure. An audience (lack of audience) collapse of the mainstream industry may occur. The replacement may become a vast number of niche localised hobby-level fragments and an eruption of interactive entertainments for those who remain cashed up enough to afford it. Live theatre, travelling minstrels and buskers living on stones and grass may what it eventually boils down to.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:47 pm
by Leon Benzakein
Technology is moving ahead, however are the consumers of the product keeping pace with the emotion or lack of emotion that is generated by sterile ones and zeros.

As humans I believe that we still seek out experiences that stimulate and trigger emotions whatever that may mean to an individual.

What worries me is that technology may be breeding numbness.

Give me a good live story teller anytime.
We still need human contact.

Unfortunately we are not in control of bacteria that is seeking to wipe out the human species.

the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:04 am
by rick.lang
Following along Leon’s path (before biology was introduced in the conversation):

We have really moved from an audience of people sitting together, aware of each other in a way, enjoying the shared experience of watching a screen kiss or a huge explosion, to an individual or single family watching a shared screen at home, thanks to the cultural reprogramming of our responses to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Sure the $3,499 goggles portend an interesting experience for an individual privileged person prone to FOMO. But Apple, seriously, do you think a family of four will all have their own Apple Vision Pro while the family enjoys their entertainment.

Realistically it might even be a stretch to think an elderly retired (and still privileged) couple will be holding hands on the couch while munching their un-salted un-buttered popcorn and each enjoying their Apple Vision Pro experience.

I just don’t think Apple will admit they know the adoption limitations. Are we close to everyone in the (privileged) family owning an iPhone? Probably. But this really ups the ante.

The Apple Vision Pro may be a fantastic device to innovate how we experience our world, programmers should scoop it up as a developer of tools. But the target audience for this particular device is still small compared to $1,000 for a phone. I thought it ridiculous to add the Pro moniker to the name. But I’m so naïve to overlook the grand design:
2023 Apple Vision Pro with wired battery
2024 Apple Vision and Apple Vision Max
2025 Apple Vision Ultra on-board battery.

On a more serious note, I don’t think it will be a healthy experience for many people because it may just be too immersive in an artificial world. For example, someone that may be occasionally troubled by hallucinations, may fall into a very deep hole. At the start of a show, we often see the warning that the show contains flashing lights so some epileptics may not watch the show. What will be the warning with the Apple Vision Pro viewing of disturbing scenes?

Question:
How do you know something is art?
Answer:
It has a frame around it.

Today even the unreal experience of a Marvel movie can be somewhat contained because the image on the television or in the theatre still has a frame around it. So our brains understand that this horror or this movement is part of a container. When you put on goggles that virtually surround you with audio and visualizations, your brain has lost its recognition of boundaries; the frame defining art is gone.

What next?
The answer has already been suggested:
Brain implants.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:14 am
by Uli Plank
While I'm much more concerned about the implications of AI in our everyday lives and for income, this is typical Apple. They are always late to the show, but without big noise they are developing something impressive (like their silicon).
At first, while nobody around is able to compete, they'll try to make as much of their development costs as possible with the happy few, who don't have to think about money. But sooner or later it'll trickle down to a 'Pro'vision SE.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:33 am
by ricardo marty
rick.lang wrote:Sure the $3,499 goggles portend an interesting experience for an individual privileged person prone to FOMO. But Apple, seriously, do you think a family of four will all have their own Apple Vision Pro while the family enjoys their entertainment.


I see another problem were entertainment will be an individual and isolated experience. Further expanding the experience of 2020. The social construct as we know may not be the norm for future generations if things continue as we are seeing. A world of isolated beings who just casually glance at each other as they pass by. People working from home using ai as a coworker, having what ever they need shiped to their homes.The young contact each other by text and social media. Who knows if the future they will talking and comunication with AI that mimics a human. We could all be living our lives with goggles seeing the world as we and someone wants us to see it. every one will have their own world.

Ricardo Marty

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:19 am
by Sean van Berlo
I mean I think the Apple VR headset is still a solution looking for a problem at that pricepoint but in what world does that Oculus Quest have the same hardware as the Apple Vision Pro beyond surface level descriptions.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:50 am
by rick.lang
It wouldn’t surprise me that years down the road, we shall find Apple Vision Pro has created a problem. Increasing isolation, disconnect, anxiety, distrust, ultimately increasing loneliness.

The technology continues to evolve in a direction that encourages indetectable deep fake (an avatar that is not a harmless cartoon character but a ‘real’ persona that pretends to be you or Putin). Grimes is already inviting anyone to use her voice to sing your song. One small step for a woman, one giant leap for a culture of deception. To Apple they’re simply chasing a new profit generator. Reminds me of the rationale of that drug company that justified their push for profits beyond any concern for the potential for harm to their customers addicted to painkillers.

You can tell I’ll never be invited to sit on the board of Apple or (thankfully) invited to tea at the Kremlin.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:15 pm
by John Paines
rick.lang wrote:Today even the unreal experience of a Marvel movie can be somewhat contained because the image on the television or in the theatre still has a frame around it. So our brains understand that this horror or this movement is part of a container. When you put on goggles that virtually surround you with audio and visualizations, your brain has lost its recognition of boundaries; the frame defining art is gone.


But what this product offers is exactly that, simulated or remote experience, not art. It's a bit like psychoactive drugs,except the hallucination is programmed or pre-determined by the user. Eventually they'll run commercials. Or you'll grant access to your brain (for marketing purposes, of course) for play credits.

Unlikely it will be of much interest to older adults, but you have to wonder if the very young have the attention span. Video games are today far more profitable than movies, but without that constant stimulation.... Reality without significant adulteration is too boring for goggles. The whole thing could turn into one endless Zoom meeting of insufferable talking icons.

Or, people may eventually conclude that if you want to escape your ego for an hour or two, someone or other, not Apple or Mark Zuckerberg, invented a protocol for that a few thousand years ago: storytelling. One form is called movies.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:04 pm
by Michel Rabe
The biggest issue with any 3D tech for movies for the last 100 years (The Power of Love is the first 3D movie screened for a commercial audience, in Los Angeles 1920) was that they simply didn’t contribute anything to the story.

This Apple thing could turn out to produce great experiences in games ect but the medium 'movie' doesn't benefit much from 3D.

Quite contrary to Smell-O-Vision of course! When the day comes that this beautiful technology will fill our sniffers with the magic odors of the toilets of Slytherin or the iron stench from Tom Cruise's midnight snack in Interview With a Vampire, we shall storm the cinemas again!

https://www.wired.com/2006/12/a-brief-history-2-2/

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:52 pm
by Peter J. DeCrescenzo
rick.lang wrote:... we ... find the internet has created a problem. Increasing isolation, disconnect, anxiety, distrust, ultimately increasing loneliness. ...


Fixed that for you.

Cheers.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:37 pm
by Peter J. DeCrescenzo
Apple named it "Apple Vision Pro" so they have the option to name a future, less-expensive product intended for the mass-market "Apple Vision". Just as they do with their other product lines.

The "Vision Pro" was announced at Apple's developer conference so developers can start designing software and hardware for use with it. Its SDK will be available in a few weeks. Developers will have a field day with Vision Pro!

It's important to remember Vision Pro is a fairly powerful general-purpose COMPUTER in addition to being a >4K 3D/2D display & camera system. The possibilities of what can be done with such a device are extremely flexible.

For example, I'm sure Blackmagic already has multiple ideas, both hardware & software. Imagine a future camera with an encrypted, low-latency WiFi-6 VIDEO & CAMERA CONTROL OUTPUT compatible with Vision Pro. Why use a low-tech, low-quality EVF or monitor when Vision Pro can be worn by key on-set personnel, each seeing & INTERACTING with high-quality camera output PLUS computer data such as script, storyboard, video & audio tech waveforms, etc. in virtual windows, arranged (or muted) in virtual space. With high-quality audio. All securely managed according to each user's needs/job. Users would be able to instantly dial in/out the on-set reality at any time using the Vision Pro dial. Yes, a crazy example, but not totally far-fetched. Something like this will happen.

Meanwhile, back on Earth, developers of solutions for manufacturing, engineering, medicine, architecture, education, disability/accessibility, etc. are likely racing to create products based on Vision Pro. In many of these cases, the $3,500 price of the Vision Pro would be a small percentage of the overall solution's cost. These are not small markets. Within a year or two from now, Apple could easily sell many hundreds of thousands (and eventually millions) of Vision Pro for these non-consumer applications.

If Vision Pro succeeds, which I think it will, in about a year Apple will announce the less-expensive, lighter-weight "Apple Vision" model. Given Apple's rapid development of custom silicon, the new model will probably be more capable that "today's" (not yet shipping) Vision Pro. And compatible with most/all software developed for Vision Pro. And there'll be an even more capable "Vision Pro II". Rinse. Repeat.

And yes, some people will find all sort of horrible, anti-social uses for a powerful device such as Vision Pro. Same as it ever was. That's why Apple and society will need to manage its use with common-sense built-in design limitations and legal regulation. True, there hasn't been a good track record for this in many cases, but an effort should be made.

The future looks bright. Some of us with money (or forward-thinking employers) will be able to wear Vision Pro.

Cheers.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:06 am
by Uli Plank
Well, years ago I tried the Zeiss Cinemizer for some gimbal work in a very low position. Apart from insufficient resolution, which allowed only for framing, an assistent had to steer me not to run into tree branches.
The Apple thingy with much better resolution and peripheral vision might be interesting for this.
And then, seeing the frame much like the audience in a theatre will see it should be much better for composition than on a small monitor.

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:50 am
by Uli Plank
Good point!
Knowing Apple, it might connect only with an iPhone for camera :-)

Re: the Future of Cinematography

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:05 pm
by Darko Djerich
Future of good cinematography, as it has been for the past Century, will always be about conveying human emotions, regardless the technique and tools...