Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema Cams

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ebinrock

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Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema Cams

PostMon Apr 17, 2023 10:09 pm

Well, NAB 2023 is here, and still no continuous autofocus in the Pocket Cinema Camera 6K Pro or G2 (the likes of Canon's or Sony's, or even Panasonic/LUMIX now!). Nor IBIS. Nor a full frame camera option, nor a box camera form factor from BMD. But hey, we got vertical video! :roll: - which, sorry, I always thought was stupid (yeah, call me "boomer", even though I'm Gen X...) and the result of ignorant and lazy young people not bothering to turn their phones sideways when shooting their amateur video - now bad habits have become a trend that we video professionals need to cater to! The human eyes were meant to see things in a wide landscape mode; if they weren't, our eyes would be one on top of another rather than side-to-side. Geesh!
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Bob Moore

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostMon Apr 17, 2023 10:56 pm

Perhaps the reality is that the core culture at BM has more affinity with those
who take their craft and art not as a dalliance but more as a life focus. And
the majority of those have no interest in continuous AF nor IBIS.

Full frame is a concept from stills cameras ... not really embraced by those who make
their living imaging real things ... razor edge depth of field may be artistic but it does
not pay the bills of those who have to do commercial photography. Barry London aside ...
most of those producing the majority of video/cinema do not have the budget nor the
resources to embrace ethereal OOF esthetic.

There are so many other choices out there which will give you a mindless auto exposure focus and
tracking experience ...

You denigrate the choice to offer vertical framing ... and seemingly want all the new new toys ... AF FF
IBIS BOX ...

But lets be real ... the difficulty is that multiple BM cameras have not been calibrated to the same color,
they are poorly supported in the long term ... although you can buy a new camera every couple of years
before they fail and are not repairable ... and they tend to favor marginal storage options in the
lower end cameras.

But ... God bless BM for offering something other than the crippled options from most of the main players.
I doubt we would have seen RAW 4K or decent codecs were it not for Graham and BM.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostTue Apr 18, 2023 1:53 pm

ebinrock wrote:Well, NAB 2023 is here, and still no continuous autofocus in the Pocket Cinema Camera 6K Pro or G2 (the likes of Canon's or Sony's, or even Panasonic/LUMIX now!). Nor IBIS.


On a level from 1 to 10 (10 being hardest) where do you think falls the developing of

a) continuous autofocus
b) IBIS

For IBIS:
What do you think you will have to scarify in the Pocket camera then for this feature to work?

I am asking this as I am really interested in what people think it takes and what they are willing to lose.
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Poozon

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostTue Apr 18, 2023 8:00 pm

Regarding IBIS: I am grateful that Blackmagic does not add this feature. I have not heard of anybody using IBIS for video. I would not buy a video camera with IBIS.

I shoot video using a steadicam and together with the gyro stabilisation provided by Blackmagic cameras I get perfectly smooth video. I usually use Gyroflow to further improve the stabilisation and to eliminate rolling shutter.

Just look at what Canon is offering: Canon EOS R5 C does not have IBIS whereas Canon EOS R5 has it. R5 C is for video, R5 is for stills.
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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostTue Apr 18, 2023 8:02 pm

My take is to accept them as they are. I know what they do and I know their price point. When I need IS for handheld I use a lens with IS. When I need continuous auto focus for "run and gun" I pull out my C200. There are trade offs for each function and I know what they are. I also understand my budget. When it comes time to load footage into DR, I know what to expect.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostWed Apr 19, 2023 2:38 am

If you desperately need AF, it’s Canon or Sony. They are years ahead in this field with the help of A.I., even Nikon and Panasonic have difficulties to match. It would be a dead race if BM would try.
They’d better work on LIDAR (and maybe they do already).
Regarding IBIS, I’d always prefer good mechanical means while shooting, and then gyro in post. It’ll give you much more control, while IBIS is ‘baked’ in.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Poozon

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostWed Apr 19, 2023 8:51 pm

Uli Plank wrote:They’d better work on LIDAR (and maybe they do already).

There is application "Focus Puller" for iPhone that uses the iPhone LiDAR to perform autofocus on Blackmagic cameras.
I have LiDAR in my iPad only so this solution is not very practical in my case but if you have iPhone with LiDAR then a kind of autofocus is available for Blackmagic cameras too.
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rick.lang

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Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema Cams

PostWed Apr 19, 2023 10:54 pm

Thanks for the tip. No harm in trying except my favourite lenses are all manual. I assume this is sending commands for the camera to alter focus.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostThu Apr 20, 2023 1:19 am

Let's say it's an interesting experiment, but not there yet.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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GalinMcMahon

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostThu Apr 20, 2023 4:09 pm

ebinrock wrote:Well, NAB 2023 is here, and still no continuous autofocus in the Pocket Cinema Camera 6K Pro or G2 (the likes of Canon's or Sony's, or even Panasonic/LUMIX now!). Nor IBIS. Nor a full frame camera option, nor a box camera form factor from BMD. But hey, we got vertical video! :roll


I was reading this, knowing I didn't type it, but still wondering if I had. We can't have continuous AF because it's a cinema camera....but... we can shoot Instagram videos and run them through a boring detector.

People knock continuous AF and say that a "real" cinematographer will always have a dedicated focus puller at their beck and call. I mean, if we could afford that, we could afford Reds. I've never had to track an actor with my ff while saying, "Dang, I am glad this camera doesn't do this for me."
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostThu Apr 20, 2023 4:19 pm

GalinMcMahon wrote:I was reading this, knowing I didn't type it, but still wondering if I had. We can't have continuous AF because it's a cinema camera....but... we can shoot Instagram videos and run them through a boring detector.

People knock continuous AF and say that a "real" cinematographer will always have a dedicated focus puller at their beck and call. I mean, if we could afford that, we could afford Reds. I've never had to track an actor with my ff while saying, "Dang, I am glad this camera doesn't do this for me."


Non of the things you mentioned above has been said here.
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostFri Apr 21, 2023 1:10 am

On the contrary. I wrote that some might be better off with a Canon or a Sony. You can still use DR.
Horses for courses. BTW, AF in the Red Komodo is ‘problematic’, to put it mildly.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Jason Boyd

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostSat Apr 22, 2023 1:14 am

You can’t have both IBIS and ND filters. It’s why Sony’s flagship video cameras, the FX6 & FX9, do not have IBIS. I doubt Blackmagic will waste time with IBIS. Faster rolling shutter plus gyro stabilization data should be a great alternative.

Pro quality Autofocus is most certainly coming to Blackmagic. It’s in high demand, Blackmagic has industry leading tracking software, so it’s basically a no brainer.
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Eugenia Loli

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostSat Apr 22, 2023 2:21 am

>Well, NAB 2023 is here...

Sony is the camera you need, it seems to me, not a Blackmagic one. The new ZV-E1 is the camera for the "one-man crew" mentality. Panasonic was close to that title traditionally (minus good AF until recently), but I think that Sony is doing things overall better now. Blackmagic doesn't have the resources to compete with such type of "helper" features that go beyond AF and IBIS as found on the ZV-E1. In fact, I don't think that any other company can compete either at this point: Canon doesn't care about such features (they still have too basic video options in their consumer lines) while Panny doesn't invest the money or engineering for that tech sector anymore. So if you want a pure cinema camera, potentially by having helpers in your shoots, keep your BMPCC. If you want a one-man-crew camera, get the Sony. Each have their pros and cons, use what you need the most.
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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostMon May 29, 2023 12:30 pm

Poozon wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:They’d better work on LIDAR (and maybe they do already).

There is application "Focus Puller" for iPhone that uses the iPhone LiDAR to perform autofocus on Blackmagic cameras.
I have LiDAR in my iPad only so this solution is not very practical in my case but if you have iPhone with LiDAR then a kind of autofocus is available for Blackmagic cameras too.


I tried it today with iphone 14 pro, not so good, i tested with fixed lens 50mm, every change is too fast and not smooth, there isnt any option to manage the speed of changment. i calibrated 47 point of depth but not work fine over 3 meters, and near not change smoothly. ok it's 15 $ app, but not good enough for me.
Good to remote focus, but no more.
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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostMon May 29, 2023 12:43 pm

You are better off just buying a Lidar device. I don't know why people want to make a cinema camera into a DSLR.
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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostMon May 29, 2023 12:45 pm

Thankfully. all through I can see some people wanting AF for their use I respect and appreciate that BM is looking more into things more important then AF.
Last edited by Johannes Jonsson on Tue May 30, 2023 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostMon May 29, 2023 12:47 pm

I’ve only ever used lens optical stabilization, and that’s for micro-jitters when running handheld with a 6k Pro in documentary-style shooting.

There’s some odd freedom about NOT using gimbals and autofocus. I understand their purpose, but when I’m so focused on camera movement, other things can get out on the back burner: I.e. lighting, a better focal length, composition, etc.
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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostMon May 29, 2023 1:02 pm

ShaheedMalik wrote:You are better off just buying a Lidar device. I don't know why people want to make a cinema camera into a DSLR.


i tested also raveneye on DJI RS2, better device, but more more more expansive, if you not need gimbal, cost less to buy a second cam with AF :-P
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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostMon May 29, 2023 2:10 pm

That's why we have a UMP and a Sony.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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ShaheedMalik

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostTue May 30, 2023 6:38 am

carlomacchiavello wrote:
ShaheedMalik wrote:You are better off just buying a Lidar device. I don't know why people want to make a cinema camera into a DSLR.


i tested also raveneye on DJI RS2, better device, but more more more expansive, if you not need gimbal, cost less to buy a second cam with AF :-P

Actually is the Lidar is cheaper.

Tita Nano Motor = $160
DJI 3D Focus = $169
Axc-BM3DF = $199

AXC-BM3DF G2 is the natural successor to the AXC-BM3DF, which now enables continuous autofocus for manual focus lenses using DJI 3D Focus and Tilta Nucleus Nano. With this, AXC-BM3DF G2 is now compatible with virtually ANY CAMERA and ANY LENS**.


https://axoncine.com/products/axc-bm3df-g2

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Jason Boyd

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostTue May 30, 2023 3:40 pm

The problem with LiDAR is mounting it. It’s so awkward. Plus, if you’re using a matte box it becomes even more awkward. Autofocus is about quick convenience for certain shots for solo shooters, and LiDAR isn’t convenient at all. I love autofocus in certain scenarios, but LiDAR is too much of a hassle to gain a feature that’s supposed to remove the hassle.

If a camera had LiDAR built into the body then that could be interesting, but then again you run into the matte box problem. Something common like a matte box would block the LiDAR and you couldn’t use the two at the same time.
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ShaheedMalik

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostTue May 30, 2023 6:22 pm

Jason Boyd wrote:The problem with LiDAR is mounting it. It’s so awkward. Plus, if you’re using a matte box it becomes even more awkward. Autofocus is about quick convenience for certain shots for solo shooters, and LiDAR isn’t convenient at all. I love autofocus in certain scenarios, but LiDAR is too much of a hassle to gain a feature that’s supposed to remove the hassle.

If a camera had LiDAR built into the body then that could be interesting, but then again you run into the matte box problem. Something common like a matte box would block the LiDAR and you couldn’t use the two at the same time.


I think you are creating an issue where there is none.

You put the Lidar module on the cold shoe. If you have a matte box, put it on the cold shoe of a handle.
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Jason Boyd

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostTue May 30, 2023 6:44 pm

ShaheedMalik wrote:I think you are creating an issue where there is none.

You put the Lidar module on the cold shoe. If you have a matte box, put it on the cold shoe of a handle.


If you move the LiDAR then you have to recalibrate with each lens.
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Michel Rabe

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostTue May 30, 2023 9:36 pm

You can use the DJI Lidar without a gimbal once calibrated (it can store 3 lenses without the need to recalibrate).



But does anyone know if there is a way to then also control the DJI motor with some wireless FF instead of the Lidar controlling the motor?

I'm thinking of a setup where the AC pulls focus wirelessly for the most part but for certain situations, you could switch over to have the Lidar control the motor (basically switch to AF). Anyone know if that is somehow possible?
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ricardo marty

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostTue May 30, 2023 10:48 pm

Sonys upcoming a6800 will have AI to help with travel focus, I wonder if the p4k could be retrofitted for this?

It would be great if they created an evf for the pocket cameras it would greatly help focus. I culd use this more than the aF

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rick.lang

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostWed May 31, 2023 3:30 pm

Jason Boyd wrote:The problem with LiDAR is mounting it...


Judging by the sample video, the problem I see is that you can’t track a subject that moves out of the sweet spot in the central area of the frame. That inevitably will pull the wrong focus as a character moves from one side of the frame to the other. A video in which we are held to focus our viewer’s attention on the centre of the frame will become claustrophobic.

Other than that I think it’s very impressive for the price.
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Michel Rabe

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostWed May 31, 2023 9:52 pm

Michel Rabe wrote:But does anyone know if there is a way to then also control the DJI motor with some wireless FF instead of the Lidar controlling the motor?

I'm thinking of a setup where the AC pulls focus wirelessly for the most part but for certain situations, you could switch over to have the Lidar control the motor (basically switch to AF). Anyone know if that is somehow possible?


ShaheedMalik wrote:Actually is the Lidar is cheaper.

Tita Nano Motor = $160
DJI 3D Focus = $169
Axc-BM3DF = $199

AXC-BM3DF G2 is the natural successor to the AXC-BM3DF, which now enables continuous autofocus for manual focus lenses using DJI 3D Focus and Tilta Nucleus Nano. With this, AXC-BM3DF G2 is now compatible with virtually ANY CAMERA and ANY LENS**.


https://axoncine.com/products/axc-bm3df-g2



Actually that should do the job. You should be able to pull focus wirelessly with the Nucleus Nano FF hand unit, and once autofocus is needed, activate the Axc-BM3DF + DJI 3D Focus. Well, in theory.
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ShaheedMalik

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Re: Still no continuous autofocus or IBIS in Pocket Cinema C

PostThu Jun 01, 2023 10:59 pm

Jason Boyd wrote:
ShaheedMalik wrote:I think you are creating an issue where there is none.

You put the Lidar module on the cold shoe. If you have a matte box, put it on the cold shoe of a handle.


If you move the LiDAR then you have to recalibrate with each lens.


Why would you move it?

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