Blackmagic Forum

John Paines wrote:

Michel Rabe wrote:

jallen0 wrote:EL: “When you move out to extremities of the body, therefore, you can just make those two-stop values – minus four can represent two stops, and so on."

I don't quite understand, can someone please explain?

It sounds like he expects shooters to recalculate the value of the stops at the "extremities", for cameras which don't conform to the existing scale. So in his example, -4 isn't two stops away from crushed blacks, it's more like four. But since -6 and +6 are no longer absolute measures, there's no way to see, graphically, when the sensor is clipping, without some additional indicator on the screen. And recalculating the value of stops at the edges becomes more complicated as ISO values change the distribution of stops above and below middle grey.

John Brawley wrote:So it’s not REALLY a stop over as measure by footcandles. It’s REFLECTING a stop more (or absorbing a stop more)

Howard Roll wrote:

John Brawley wrote:So it’s not REALLY a stop over as measure by footcandles. It’s REFLECTING a stop more (or absorbing a stop more)

The EL Zone system turns the camera display into a spotmeter, reflective and incident readings are a different animal.

Good Luck

rick.lang wrote:Just a thought on what really matters:

Most of what we see in a scene in a traditional theatre projection is going to fit within 50 nits. Most LCD and even OLED HDTV televisions are using 100 nits to display most of their image. Some 4K OLED televisions allow for 203 nits for most of the image but peak intensity can be 1000 nits. Monitors can go higher. Digital Dolby tops out at 10000 nits.

What is a practical lowest discernible black above 0 in these different scenarios? If we assume a starting black of 1 nit, then we hit 50 nits in <6 stops, 100 nits in <7 stops, 203 nits in <8 stops. So Walter’s range is appropriate for most of the contents of a scene even in 4K television using HDR. But the 4K OLRD television can display almost 10 stops at 1000 nits. So it seems to me you want your camera to be as capable; so the limitations of Ed’s scale may not be consequential, but I still prefer the False Colour that handles 12 or more stops.

Feel free to shoot down this train of thought because these stops really depend upon the starting value which may not be the 1 nit I suggested.

Kim Janson wrote:Are the - 3 to -6 and +3 to +6 important to be by stops?

Why not just scale them to what the camera has, and keep the center part as it is.

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:+1 for cameras and monitors. I've got it in a Sigma FP and a SmallHD which I'm using with an a7S3 and I think it's brilliant. It would be a wonderful addition to BM products.

Jim Simon wrote:One thing I notice is that EL Zone has dark skin below middle gray, whereas False Color has it AT middle gray.

And both show it in green.

Subjective calls? Or is someone doing it wrong?


(But they both seem to have light skin using yellow at MG+1. I dunno.)

Jim Simon wrote:Thanks, Shaheed.

Eli hershko wrote:I found this on Utube:

Eli hershko wrote:I found this on Utube:

I actually created a 33 point lut which I brought into my bmpcc 4k. Since I record in film log anyway all I have to do is dedicate one of the function button to display the lut thus I can have the EL Zone displaying on both monitor and LCD and when I am happy with exposure, remove the lut by pressing on the function button again.

Granted I still have to test this since I just installed it and it does not have the legened right there on the screen but it is a work around without having to spend $1000 + on a smallHD monitor

Eli hershko wrote:Here is a link to a folder on my google drive where you can find the Lut:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_HkEUn ... drive_link

Eli hershko wrote:tested it today with Pocket 4k and it is on the money accurate. A lightmeter read out on gray card exposed at 400 ISO |24F showed exactly the same F-stop the camera registered. I am so impressed! The only thing that I wish we could do is put on the screen the actual Legend | Map of colors

rszanto64 wrote:

Eli hershko wrote:tested it today with Pocket 4k and it is on the money accurate. A lightmeter read out on gray card exposed at 400 ISO |24F showed exactly the same F-stop the camera registered. I am so impressed! The only thing that I wish we could do is put on the screen the actual Legend | Map of colors

Any way to re-share the Google Drive link?

Willian Aleman wrote:Although the EL Lachman Zone System is implemented via Dado Valentic’s Look Designer in Davinci Resolve, I vote +1 to have it natively in Davinci Resolve.

ShaheedMalik wrote:

Willian Aleman wrote:Although the EL Lachman Zone System is implemented via Dado Valentic’s Look Designer in Davinci Resolve, I vote +1 to have it natively in Davinci Resolve.

What is this?

jallen0 wrote:

ShaheedMalik wrote:

Willian Aleman wrote:Although the EL Lachman Zone System is implemented via Dado Valentic’s Look Designer in Davinci Resolve, I vote +1 to have it natively in Davinci Resolve.

What is this?

https://colourlab.ai

ShaheedMalik wrote:

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:+1 for cameras and monitors. I've got it in a Sigma FP and a SmallHD which I'm using with an a7S3 and I think it's brilliant. It would be a wonderful addition to BM products.

I hope other monitors manufacturers add it.

This is one of our goals with the EL Zone System—to have it available from camera to monitor to post production. We have been in discussions with Blackmagic and will certainly post any updates as we have them.


Thanks for your question and support.

Willian Aleman wrote:In relation to the EL Zone System limitation of 12 stops, Mr. Ed Lachman has said the following in the comment of the article below:
“There is no problem in extending the exposure range in the EL Zone System in stops for ARRI Alexa 35 or for any other camera manufacturer through in-camera representation or using a Small HD. It won't add more colors, which would only make it less distinguishable and lose the simplicity of the mid-tones, where it is most important. The whole concept and design of the EL Zone System is for cinematographers in the field with its values of light in stops to distinguish contrast and exposure. In the areas of the over- and under-exposure, where more stops are needed, I will be instituting a system similar to zebras to represent the amount of stops that would hold detail in the over or under areas. Thanks for everybody's comments and your article. As camera sensors have become more sensitive, it has always been in my thoughts and I hear you. And of course, the EL Zone System has to recognize whatever the latitude of the sensor is that it is representing.”
https://www.newsshooter.com/2023/03/06/ ... ou-use-it/

John Brawley wrote:

Willian Aleman wrote:In relation to the EL Zone System limitation of 12 stops, Mr. Ed Lachman has said the following in the comment of the article below:
“There is no problem in extending the exposure range in the EL Zone System in stops for ARRI Alexa 35 or for any other camera manufacturer through in-camera representation or using a Small HD. It won't add more colors, which would only make it less distinguishable and lose the simplicity of the mid-tones, where it is most important. The whole concept and design of the EL Zone System is for cinematographers in the field with its values of light in stops to distinguish contrast and exposure. In the areas of the over- and under-exposure, where more stops are needed, I will be instituting a system similar to zebras to represent the amount of stops that would hold detail in the over or under areas. Thanks for everybody's comments and your article. As camera sensors have become more sensitive, it has always been in my thoughts and I hear you. And of course, the EL Zone System has to recognize whatever the latitude of the sensor is that it is representing.”
https://www.newsshooter.com/2023/03/06/ ... ou-use-it/

But this is kind of the problem with this system. So if you’re outside that range you have zebras?

Modern cameras do more than 12 stops. So then you loose the point because at say 16+ stops like an A35 can do you don’t have fine discretion over those stops at the extremes. I routinely use false colour on Alexa and Blackmagic to look at what’s red and what’s yellow. Everything else below that is gradeable anyway so I don’t need to know if the key is two stops bright than the fill. That’s what a light meter is for.

I’m also unsure what happens when you bend the ISO. In native mode you might have say 5 stops over but if you alter the midpoint (ISO CHANGE) you all of a sudden have 8 stops over. Which scale do you use now and how is that represented in this scheme?

I understand the appeal of this system, but I can’t see how you implement it without causing even more confusion.

JB

ShaheedMalik wrote:Those extra stops are rolled off anyway.

John Brawley wrote:

ShaheedMalik wrote:Those extra stops are rolled off anyway.

Well I think those stops are important. Even if they are “just rolled off”

That’s a choice in grade. Not in capture.

And the whole point of this different system is to track all this right?

JB