Blackmagic Forum

Hi everyone
I hope my topic finds you all well,

I am looking to upgrade my cinema gear with a new tripod and I would ask for your opinion about what tripod should I choose,

I have a bmpcc 4k and my main lens for now is a sigma 18-35. I have the smallrig's cage with few more smallrig's pieces on it.

My budget is around 700-800e maximum for this tripod.
I was thinking to invest on a sachtler ace m ms but not sure if this one is the best solution.

last but now least I wanna use this tripod for cinematography purposes.

what could you suggest me?

Sachtler is a good and tough brand. Vinten is good, too. Got one of both. I think I prefer the Sachtler.
My advice is to take a sturdy film camera suited tripod, not one for photography. Better one step too heavy for the camera than one too light. Panning and tilting is better when the fluid head is sturdy. Steady movement.
Three-step legs are shorter and are better in storage. Two-step legs are maybe a little less prone to defects since there is one less clamp per leg.

I have been using my Manfrotto MPro Carbon legs with a 509 Fluid head for a number of years and it's probably a bit overkill for you but there are other available solutions at http://www.manfrotto.com/uk-en/products/video-tripods/ although they are other brands out there which may suit your pocket and what's good for you.

Scott

Sachtler Ace XL on the 75 Flowtech MS legs is great value for money. It can be purchased as a kit.

Sirui (pretty good budget photo camera tripod maker) sells a Sachtler Flowtech knock off now on Kickstarter that might be worth looking into if you’re on a budget. The video tripod space can definitely use some competitive pressure on the tripod space.

this new Sirui tripod looks impressive. A bit heavier than the smallest Sachtler Flowtech, but with round/tubular legs.

I just saw this:

But the tripod is not yet available on B&H Photo, only monopod. The tripod can hold 80 lbs but I don’t know what the head can smoothly manage.

Niklas, on the YCOnion website I cannot find any detailed description and specs for the fluid head; only can see a photo and price and which bowl head it fits. That’s unusual considering the many details shared about the tripod (which looks good).

SIRUI use SVH15 head on SVT75 tripod. Some details :
https://www.cined.com/sirui-svh15-video-fluid-head-announced-first-look/

When I started with video I tried to use some less expensive tripods and kept running into uneven pans and tilts. After struggling in post with sticky footage I finally bit the bullet on a better tripod head set.

While I wanted an Oconnor I couldn't afford one. After a lot of research I ended up with a used Vinten Vision 100 with a matching set of carbon sticks. The set I bought had been used a great deal and it showed. But the seller had serviced it occasionally and while it had lots of scuffs and a used look to it, it's been a fantastic piece of kit.

Since then I've picked a bunch of Sachtler sets from an Ace to the 75mm and 100mm Flowtech sets. But the Vinten, while the heaviest and oldest of the bunch, is my go to head. When I need a pan or tilt that's smooth as glass the Vinten is the one. Occasionally I shoot Canon 300mm Fluorite glass adapted to Pocket 4K's at higher frame rates. The Vinten lets me shoot action with that and is super smooth.

The Vintens show up on eBay fairly often. Sometimes prices are quite reasonable.

Videobegin wrote:SIRUI use SVH15 head on SVT75 tripod. Some details :
https://www.cined.com/sirui-svh15-video-fluid-head-announced-first-look/

Thanks for that video. Currently 75mm bowl but 100mm bowl coming next.

Rick .. this seem to be the YCOnion Head:

https://www.yconion.com/products/fh75-f ... 1986498751

Thanks, Niklas. That link shows lots of details including 10 Kg payload and how low or high you can tilt.

Here another one from SmallRig

https://www.smallrig.com/SmallRig-FreeB ... -3989.html

There is no real difference between cheap and expensive tripods until you want to do pan and tilt moves. Then there is no option but to spend a lot of money.

Given that, these recent inexpensive tripods posted above do look to have good legs, but the presenters do seem to gloss over most aspects of working with their smaller and simpler fluid heads. Might be different when 100mm bowls are offered but no guarantee of that now.

rick.lang wrote:...but the presenters do seem to gloss over most aspects of working with their smaller and simpler fluid heads.

Rick that would entail actually testing the tool instead of just talking about it with a few insert shots of "look 1 lock!" Don't get me wrong, I have Sirui CF legs on my Sachtler and they are beautifully crafted but the performance of these heads definitely requires some exploration.

Good Luck

On a good tripod 'system' i.e head and legs the head is the most expensive item. Most budget to midrange heads are not true 'fluid' heads but friction heads of varying degrees of quality sometimes not even related to price and can't provide the kind of motion smoothness a true fluid head can. Then again not everyone needs this if you are simply doing locked off shots.

twofaces wrote:My budget is around 700-800e maximum for this tripod.
I was thinking to invest on a sachtler ace m ms but not sure if this one is the best solution.

I own the Ace M for my Micro and it is very nice. It is Sachtler's cheapest fluid head available, but it is still by far better than any of the cheaper alternatives; I owned a Manfrotto 502 before it and truly it's incomparable, both in smoothness and accessibility. In my opinion it's the cheapest "true" fluid head that can be had.

The legs that are bundled with it are pretty garbage, though. They work, but very cheaply made.

I’m shooting with the Manfrotto 502 so I know what you mean. I make it work with the UM4.6K in a rig about 25 lbs, but need to very carefully set the tilt tension to operate smoothly while maintaining stability (a PITA) when I’m not holding the bar; panning is better, easier to get the right tension, and I use it confidently. I’d love a new capable head but affordability in a 100mm bowl is difficult to find.

Howard Roll wrote:… I have Sirui CF legs on my Sachtler and they are beautifully crafted but the performance of these heads definitely requires some exploration.

Good Luck

Good to know; thanks, Howard. By the time support for good budget-friendly legs that include 100mm bowls has arrived, I’m hoping there will be good budget-friendly true fluid heads (fully supporting 26 lbs or better 33 lbs), perhaps in 2024.

rick.lang wrote:I’m shooting with the Manfrotto 502 so I know what you mean. I make it work with the UM4.6K in a rig about 25 lbs.

One thing I've learned (as many others have, I'm sure) is that higher weight is paramount to camera stability. I've read of cam ops artificially adding weight to their rigs for that exact reason.

This also creates the paradox that the lighter and smaller camera you have, the better fluid head you must buy for smooth and fluid motion. That is certainly my case: the 502 is poison to my sub-10lb rig, but the more expensive Sachtler is just right. Not only pertinent to fluid heads but shoulder rigs, etc...

I’m using Manfrotto 546B sticks so that’s fairly heavy and steady.

Just thought I would 'stick' this in.

Fluid heads have both a maximum and a minimum weight they can work correctly with. Also that weight is determined by how far the center of gravity is from the head.

To test the legs: extend and setup just by themselves, grab the top and lean onto it while twisting it clockwise and counter-clockwise (looking down); observe any movement in joints and in legs themselves; then ask yourself if this amount of movement is acceptable.

Do not be surprised if you end up with a head and legs from different manufactures. (and maybe another manufacturer for a quick release.)

Hey,

what about these options?

SIRUI AM-25S
Smallrig AD-01

Or is it better to go with a Sachtler DV 2, but it's old and a used one.

Olivenbaum wrote:Hey,

what about these options?

SIRUI AM-25S
Smallrig AD-01

Or is it better to go with a Sachtler DV 2, but it's old and a used one.

What do you want to mount on the tripod? According to internet sources, the payload range for the DV 2 head is 2-4.4 lbs, although B&H's discontinued archive suggests that there is a version (DV 2IIS) that will support up to 7.8 lbs. Do you know what version of the head is being sold? What's the price?

The Sirui and SmallRig are US$200 and $160 respectively. B&H has a fair number of customer reviews (16 for the Sirui and over 50 for the SmallRig) by people who bought one of these. There are also YouTube videos made by people who have used them.

What do you want to mount on the tripod?

I have a bmpcc 4k

You need to consider the weight of your total rig that needs to be supported by a fluid head and tripod. A tripod rated rated at 2-4 pounds isn’t going to make you happy with its performance. Always best to use gear that is more than the maximum weight you anticipate using. Greater mass helps with the fluidity of panning and tilting and a heavier tripod reduces tremors. The world is full of skinny and lightweight gear that is designed for photography and ease of mobility where a shutter speed like 1/1000” removes shaking and panning and tilting is irrelevant. Cinematography is typically at slow shutter speeds, hands-on movement, accidental contact, and camera movement while shooting.

Olivenbaum wrote:

What do you want to mount on the tripod?

I have a bmpcc 4k

The payload capacity of that Sachtler head is pretty important. How much do your camera, battery, heaviest lens and accessories weigh when you are filming? Also, what is your heaviest lens?

My BMPCC4K rigged out on sticks, with Smallrig cage, battery plate/battery, rails, 4x6 monitor, external shotgun mic, shade with flags, ND with IR cut, focus puller, everything, runs near to ten pounds.

I'm getting by with the Smallrig sticks and head, but then ... I typically am more a lock it down shooter. I don't pan or tilt much. So this head is adequate entirely for my needs.

BUT ... if I were gonna do a paid gig needing routine pans and tilts, I'd replace the head first.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

How much do your camera, battery, heaviest lens and accessories weigh when you are filming

My bmpcc 4k with lens and monitor weighs about 2,5kg or 5,5lb.

The Sachtler DV 2 can hold up to 3kg (6,6lb).

So which tripod is the best?

Smallrig AD-01, AD-80, Sirui AM-25S , old Sachtler Sachtler DV 2 or I found a tripod from Manfrotto MVK500AM

Olivenbaum wrote:

How much do your camera, battery, heaviest lens and accessories weigh when you are filming

My bmpcc 4k with lens and monitor weighs about 2,5kg or 5,5lb.

The Sachtler DV 2 can hold up to 3kg (6,6lb).

Have you seen a user manual or other official Sachtler document that says 3Kg? With one exception, every reference that I've seen for DV2 maximum payload says 2Kg (some non-metric sources round it down to 4lbs). This includes people who own a DV2 and rent it out. The exception is an archived B&H spec for a DV 2IIS of 7.8lbs.

From The Broadcast Shop, which is apparently an authorised Sachtler repair centre (https://www.thebroadcastshop.com/Servic ... Head-Specs)

What's your actual budget range? The Sirui and SmallRig, new, are US$200 and $160 respectively. The Manfrotto that you've now mentioned is $460 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _plus.html), although it sounds like you're talking about buying it second-hand.

At the moment, it appears that the Sachtler won't support your camera. Neil Haugen, who owns a SmallRig set of legs and head, says three posts up "if I were gonna do a paid gig needing routine pans and tilts, I'd replace the head first".

Depending on what your actual budget is, I may have a concrete suggestion, maybe two.

It would be helpful to know what your heaviest lens is. The reason I asked (four posts up) is that lens weight and physical length affect centre of gravity and therefore balance. If you don't have a lens yet, it would be helpful to know whether you intend to use a zoom lens, and covering what range.

Based on my own experience, when I bought a tripod in the early days, the salesman showed me a definitely heavier rig than what I needed at the time. I was inexperienced and said the lighter rig would be fine, and it was for the camera I was using. But the salesman was right as I definitely should have bought the heavier rig because I would need that for my future UM4.6K and 9” lenses.

Now I rent a tripod every shoot! Lesson learned: buy today what you’ll need tomorrow.

rick.lang wrote:Based on my own experience, when I bought a tripod in the early days, the salesman showed me a definitely heavier rig than what I needed at the time. I was inexperienced and said the lighter rig would be fine, and it was for the camera I was using. But the salesman was right as I definitely should have bought the heavier rig because I would need that for my future UM4.6K and 9” lenses.

Now I rent a tripod every shoot! Lesson learned: buy today what you’ll need tomorrow.

Rick's advice here is my experience as well. Get something that will give you pans and tilts that are smooth as glass. It'll allow you to move forward with your work. It'll might cost a more then the numbers being spoken of here. But it'll last a lifetime. Consider buying used. Good luck.

Marshall Harrington wrote:

rick.lang wrote:Based on my own experience, when I bought a tripod in the early days, the salesman showed me a definitely heavier rig than what I needed at the time. I was inexperienced and said the lighter rig would be fine, and it was for the camera I was using. But the salesman was right as I definitely should have bought the heavier rig because I would need that for my future UM4.6K and 9” lenses.

Now I rent a tripod every shoot! Lesson learned: buy today what you’ll need tomorrow.

Rick's advice here is my experience as well. Get something that will give you pans and tilts that are smooth as glass. It'll allow you to move forward with your work. It'll might cost a more then the numbers being spoken of here. But it'll last a lifetime. Consider buying used. Good luck.

In general I agree with what you guys are saying, but many people aren't in a position to purchase a fluid head that "will give you pans and tilts that are smooth as glass". Heads that do that are actually quite expensive, even second-hand. If Nikolai can be persuaded to spend more money, great, but maybe that isn't an option.

In another thread, a participant in this forum who has worked for decades as a professional cinematographer has recommended a legs plus head combination that costs US$438. The head by itself, which is the tricker issue, is $150. Relatively new to the market, and apparently selling well, I would not be surprised if these products are starting to appear second-hand on eBay.

Personally, I recently acquired a compact fluid head that I'm very keen on for the kind of weight Nikolai is talking about. The problem is that it costs $400. However, this is an updated, 2018 version of a head that has been on the market for at least two decades, and its predecessor, second-hand, might be an interesting option. It's also a head that is probably better known in other markets, in particular still photography, astronomy, bird-watching and hunting. The odds are, most participants here are unaware of it. I found out about it from a freelance filmmaker who made a video about it for the UK's Wex photo group.

If you read Agis's original post in this thread, and the responses, you'll discover that people were recommending products that cost double his stated budget of €700-800. What's the point of that? The question is, what is Nikolai both willing and able to spend?

Nikolai,

If you're interested, there are posts about the heads and tripod legs discussed just above in the current thread iPhone Hardware Accessories: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=191338

Read Peter McLennan's posts in that thread on the following products. Peter has a wealth of experience, and I think that he would be happy to answer any questions that you have:

iFootage Komodo K5S Fluid Head: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... fluid.html

iFootage Gazelle TC7 Fastbowl Carbon Fiber Tripod + Komodo K5S Fluid Head Kit: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... arbon.html

I wrote a number of posts in that thread about the following fluid head. Financially, iFootage's makes more sense for you, especially if buying new:

Gitzo 2-Way Fluid Head: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _head.html

A freelance filmmaker named George Johnson made the video for Wex that I mentioned. His website is at https://www.georgeyjcreates.com He travels a great deal and is still using the combination of head and tripod that he discusses in the video below. The video contains many examples of footage shot with the combination. I use a heavier tripod, but I'm very happy with the Gitzo head. There are many situations where I prefer it to my very expensive Miller CX6:



You may also find it helpful to watch this video by Toronto cinematographer Dale Sood. I think that it's the best video on YouTube about fluid heads:

Fluid Heads & Tripods: Everything You Should Know

Good suggestions. Thanks for those ideas that are more in line with what the OP might want. I think we were trying to move the needle away from choices that may be a disappointment. Good for thought.

I'd personally recommend renting out these things and trying them out on your camera before purchasing, and determine whether you find the expensive option to be absolutely necessary. Lensrentals has everything from the cheap SmallRig to those massive O'Connors. Personally owning a Sachtler, and having experienced its buttery smooth pans, I'll never go back to cheaper stuff.

I agree with Marshall and Rick that any sincere videographer, even those starting out, will need to buy a good fluid head down the road anyway.

soohyun wrote:I'd personally recommend renting out these things and trying them out on your camera before purchasing, and determine whether you find the expensive option to be absolutely necessary. Lensrentals has everything from the cheap SmallRig to those massive O'Connors. Personally owning a Sachtler, and having experienced its buttery smooth pans, I'll never go back to cheaper stuff.

I agree with Marshall and Rick that any sincere videographer, even those starting out, will need to buy a good fluid head down the road anyway.

I think that Rick and Nikolai have something in common. Lensrentals won't rent to them Rick lives in Canada. What do the commas tell you: "My bmpcc 4k with lens and monitor weighs about 2,5kg or 5,5lb."

Most rental houses want to see production insurance. You also have to be over the age of majority and have a credit card. Lensrentals carved out a niche for itself by not requiring insurance for lower value items. I suspect that it wants to see production insurance before it rents you an OConnor.

Hey Nikolai, are these your YouTube channels?

https://www.youtube.com/@nikolaichalkidis/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@berlinbluestar/videos

If so, I think that having your own tripod and head is a good idea. Just purchase what you can afford. I like your persistence in your other current thread about purchasing an affordable 16mm lens: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=195224

In your search for a video head, keep in mind that Manfrotto has sold countless numbers of its 500 series heads. Many, many people use them. Indeed, earlier in this thread Rick says "I’m shooting with the Manfrotto 502..." It should be possible to purchase one second-hand, in good condition, quite cheaply.

In another thread, a participant in this forum who has worked for decades as a professional cinematographer has recommended a legs plus head combination that costs US$438

Thanks! iFootage Gazelle TC7 Fastbowl Carbon Fiber Tripod + Komodo K5S Fluid Head Kit

This looks great, because it doesn't seem to heavy but still has a very good fluid head.

I think that Rick and Nikolai have something in common. Lensrentals won't rent to them

Where I live I could go to a small rental and rent a lens or tripod.

Hey Nikolai, are these your YouTube channels?

Yes!

I like your persistence in your other current thread about purchasing an affordable 16mm lens: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=195224

What do you mean by persistence? I just want an affordable s16mm lens


So for the Manfrotto 502 I would still need to get a tripod. Do you know good options?

Olivenbaum wrote:
What do you mean by persistence? I just want an affordable s16mm lens

In this context, persistence is a good quality. I speak French, but not German. Entschlossen sounds like it might be the right German word.

twofaces wrote:
My budget is around 700-800e maximum for this tripod.
I was thinking to invest on a sachtler ace m ms but not sure if this one is the best solution.

last but now least I wanna use this tripod for cinematography purposes.

what could you suggest me?

Both are less thaa 500. us/ are carbon fiber, one latch per leg and more.

Check this one. light and easy to use. It has higher end features.




Or this one:

Olivenbaum wrote:
So for the Manfrotto 502 I would still need to get a tripod. Do you know good options?

Manfrotto makes two 502 tripod heads. The bottom of the 502AH is flat and mates with tripod legs that have a flat top. The bottom of the 502A is rounded and mates with tripod legs that are designed, with what's called a half-bowl, to receive the head's rounded bottom. With the 502AH, you have to level the tripod legs. With the 502A, you can level the head without the tripod legs themselves being level.

These Manfrotto heads are older designs, and in 2023 there may be better alternatives at competitive prices. That said, it's good to know that a Manfrotto can be had cheaply. I would give a fair amount of weight to Peter McLennan's opinion, and by personal message ask him for his view in relation to your specific setup.

When it comes to tripod legs, one can purchase conventional tripod legs or special video legs. For your purposes, I do not believe that there is any significant difference between them when it comes to stability. Special video legs are designed so that they can be deployed and collapsed quickly. This can be important for professional filmmakers and news crews. Time is money, especially when crew and subjects are waiting for you to set up a shot or close down for the next shot. The time-saving features, which add to tripod legs purchase cost, may not make a whit of difference to someone who is not working under professional time constraints.

It's interesting that Miller, which makes professional video heads. also makes a successful series of conventional tripod legs called Miller Solo. This video is by someone who has used a set of aluminium Miller Solo legs for ten years:



Speaking of aluminium legs, just about nobody wants them anymore. You can probably purchase a set second-hand, including ones that are very well made, quite cheaply. The weight difference between aluminium and carbon fibre is not as much as one might think. The main downside is that aluminium legs, outdoors in winter, get cold. Given that you're in Germany, you might also look into second-hand Berlebach wooden legs.

There is a lot to be said for purchasing tripod legs that comply with Gitzo's specifications for its Systematic series tripods. Many leading tripod leg manufacturers do comply, and this makes important tripod parts interchangeable between manufacturers. Over time, this can save quite a lot of money.

The thread about iPhone accessories has a good deal of discussion about these kinds of issues, including on the issue of tripod levelling. I use my Miller CX6 head on conventional tripod legs that have a half-bowl, but I can, and sometimes do, use it on a support with a flat top. I use my Gitzo 2-way head on flat top tripod legs. Actually, I use the same tripod legs for both. I use Systematic tripod legs and can change out the top between a half bowl and a flat top. One configuration is not inherently "better" than the other.

I'd like to suggest that you go to a dealer in Berlin and have someone take you through the options.