After URSA Model?

Since the URSA was introduced in 2014, and the URSA Mini and URSA Mini Pro continued its legacy in name brand and build design, I'm curious what is next for after the URSA? Could we see a new camera design? Will there be a new naming convention?

There's a lot of good questions for what is next. I know everyone asks for a "box" camera. That's fine as a B-Cam. But obviously you need to have a "Flagship" that is the A-Cam design and then the B-Cam design for under that Flagship.

I firmly believe Blackmagic is working on a new lineup of camera designs. The Flagship big camera for A-Cam, and then the smaller B-Cam type of design off that Flagship. Similar to the URSA and URSA Mini, but now it will be more UMP size and design for Flagship. With the Broadcast cameras I think that this will take more Cinema Camera uses into account and no longer be meant to function for both cinema and broadcast.

Again, I'll go with a temp name for the purposes of giving an idea:
Blackmagic Design Vega Cinema Camera
Blackmagic Design Vega Mini Cinema Camera
Blackmagic Design Vega Micro Cinema Camera

Each serving a purpose in the lineup, and each having features specific to that build design. For example Vega would probably get the highest frame rates due to cooling and processor size. Vega Mini would get mid-rage frame rates, and the Vega Micro would get the lowest possible HFR rates of the group.

The most important aspect for all these is universal sensor. Say for example the VistaVision 12K RGBW Sensor. Or, if it must be then, 16K because that's how the 12K reaches the physical size of Full Frame. Either way, the whole camera lineup would be consistent in sensor tech and making it so they can all be used fluidly on set for their specific purpose.

What do you guys think? Do you think this is the future path for Blackmagic Design after the URSA lineup?

Not Vega!

Neuron
Omni
Jupiter
Excelsior

Not Vega!
Okay maybe Vega..

No no no Goldrake, Goldorak, Grendizer in Japan fight against Vegan from 1975.
Vega is an excluded name


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Agree with Tom’s ‘anything but Vega.’ They named URSA after a constellation and an animal, not a star. So perhaps the new camera line will be called Canis, a constellation and an animaI. I don’t think that’s a brand name already so may be good from the brand perspective.

From Wikipedia:

The 88 constellations depict 42 animals, 29 inanimate objects, and 17 humans or mythological characters.

I don’t know if the human race will be buying cinema cameras say 400 years from now, but there’s a lot of sense in continuing with animal constellation names for a family of cameras.

Ignore the "Vega" as that was an aspect. Focus on the other points in my thesis.

Also, technically the URSA name came from one of their Cintel Scanners as JB has pointed out in the past.

err...

You all know that "Ursa" isn't visible from the souther hemisphere right?

Just asking those who might think it's automatically named for a constellation to consider that those of us in the southern hemisphere don't have the same association with a constellation.

For the Ursa the constellation crowd check how you respond to the Southern Cross, which would be would be our equivalent. Can you draw it without looking it up? (it's on the Australian flag)

There are other interpretations and you can maybe work it out with a bit more research.....

JB

Thank you JB for weighing in. Curious, what are your thoughts on my Thesis that after the URSA line the next lineup will have a three body family servicing distinct purposes in the lineup?

err...

You all know that "Ursa" isn't visible…There are other interpretations and you can maybe work it out with a ..

JB

Thanks, John. I wasn’t thinking this through, but I drop my suggestion of Canis for the next camera family.

In honor of John Oliver getting the pūteketeke to win the New Zealand Bird of the Century Contest, maybe we should look at some Australian Birds to name the next camera after.

The Blackmagic Design Brolga Cinema Camera certainly has a nice ring to it.


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Brolga is awesome.

My old mentor John Bowring ACS had this as a nickname.

https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2011/ ... wring-acs/

He was my friend and literally taught me everything I know. He passed away quite young and indirectly was there at the beginning of Blackmagic making cameras.

I was asked to speak at his service and it was afterwards that I bumped into Grant. BMD had just bought Resolve and we started joking about how John Bowring was famously very harsh with manufacturers and we imagined what he would say if Blackmagic started making cameras. With a twinkle in his eye Grant said he would be in touch.

I sent Grant some emails about what I thought was was important to cinematographers and a short while later I got my first invite to go down and get my private presentation in the manner of Steve jobs “there’s one more thing”

So really Brolga was there at the beginning of all this. Even today I imagine him chewing out everything that’s wrong with the cameras

JB

Thanks for sharing that, John. Excellent choice for the next camera family.

Brolga might sound great for English natives, but unfortunately sounds quite silly in German, like a combination of Prolet (= redneck) and Olga.

Whatever the name, make it small.
I'm fine with an early 2024 release, thank you very much!

Brolga might sound great for English natives, but unfortunately sounds quite silly in German, like a combination of Prolet (= redneck) and Olga.

I can assure you, it sounds silly in English as well.

Good Luck

Sony Venice makes any sense as a camera? URSA seems ‘normal’ but it used to sound strange. Personally I find a name that has a history much more appealing than a Canon R6 or an a7III or even a Ford F150, and so on ad nauseum. Of course the Pocket made sense when it was possible to put the first BMPCC in the pocket of cargo pants; today, Pocket is absurd but we don’t mind it because it’s familiar. I think if we find the Brolga camera fascinating and compelling, the name won’t hold it back.

But you are a wise and thoughful person, so I know you could be right about the Brolga that may turn away a buyer. Need a familiar name, let BMD match the camera competition, trading punches, with their new Brawler!

When I see the name BMPCC and Ursa (bear), it reminds me of the Soviet Union. In youtube its seems BMD cameras are popular in Russia.

Why not name after famous Australian animals like Koala, Wombat, Dingo, Tasmanian Devil?

Well, one competitor used that early communist imagery style intentionally. The Tasmanian devil may appeal to their clientele, with all those Raptors, a bomb EVF and skulls around

I like the fact that there's an Ursa Major and an Ursa Minor in the sky, BM must have planned the Minis when choosing the name.

As You are into Astronomy , do not forget CORIOLIS , Because it's a FORCE .. Relative to the Velocity Vector , that Force goes to the RIght in the Northern Hemisphere , and to the Left in the Southern Hemisphere .. Important to know , if you operate a Steadycam .... That's why it's always easier to operate a Steadycam at the Equator .. Incredible , No ?
It reminds me of When I made a Parabolic mirror for Astronomy .. digging a Spherical Mirror is relatively Easy , but when you want to make it Parabolic .. with the help of a Foucault Meter , it's another story .. knowing it's impossible to get a perfect parabolic shape .. But , being within some limits , the mirror may be considered as good , very good , or super good .. Maybe I could produce Lenses .. but it's another Thing ..

Space and TIme .. are the same Entity .. not easy to really understand , Anyway .. And both are distorted by Gravity .. the speed of the running time depends of the Gravity .. incredible .. but True .. Space .. with some Dollars in your Pocket ans some Kerozene , you can move in it , but Time .. I strongly believe Time is the most representative value in our Lives ..

Going into Philosophy , as always .. Any Joke aside , for the Fun , you'll find here a Picture I received from a Noaa Weather Sat , several years ago .. The sensor is not a " Camera " sensor , it's an Avhrr , " Advanced very high resolution radiometer " .. kind of a Scanner working in the Visible and the Infrared Spectrum .. The colors are False Colors produced by the Software .. Resolution at Vertical is a bit more than one Kilometer ..

Life is going On .. Take it Easy .. just my Two Euros .. / Mike ..

Well, one competitor used that early communist imagery style intentionally. The Tasmanian devil may appeal to their clientele, with all those Raptors, a bomb EVF and skulls around

I like the fact that there's an Ursa Major and an Ursa Minor in the sky, BM must have planned the Minis when choosing the name.

Fun travelling with gear with Bomb in the name. And we all know airport officials are such funny guys. Always appreciating a good joke .

You know, the Big Sky Sphere camera and Achtel 9x7 are 18K so 16K would not be unexpected knowing those options are out there. I'd be all for it too as the 12K already looks so great but a Full Frame version would be outstanding and with the Pocket 6K CC now, I think Full Frame is on the table.

As for size, I really miss the nice big fold out screen from the original URSA and if it is 16K then you definitely will need to see what you're doing as well as being able to punch in more and more for focus accuracy.

I also think going forward all the cameras should have an OLPF because of virtual production needs.

Otherwise, aside from the sensor upgrade, I think the camera is pretty solid as it is and I too have heard many calls for the box form factor. The box form factor can work for some but having a nice all around body design can be really beneficial for packing and unpacking as well as general ease of use. Otherwise you're using up a good deal of time unscrewing and dismantling all the accessories bolted to the camera cage rig once the shoot is over.

Call me crazy but I'd like to see uncompressed CinemaDNG make a comeback. Or uncompressed RAW of any flavor. Just as an option alongside the rest.

… As for size, I really miss the nice big fold out screen from the original URSA and if it is 16K then you definitely will need to see what you're doing as well as being able to punch in more and more for focus accuracy...

Interesting idea there. If the sensor is 16K, you might have 2K monitor for a complete representation of the frame, but as you double tap, the 2K monitor might represent 8K, then 4K, then 2K of the sensor pixel for pixel). Would be nice.

Call me crazy but I'd like to see uncompressed CinemaDNG make a comeback. Or uncompressed RAW of any flavor. Just as an option alongside the rest.

I'd be all for an uncompressed version of BRAW. But I'm sure those VistaVision 16K Uncompressed BRAW files will be pretty massive. Finally gonna need a Yottabyte of storage.

Blackmagic Design Yottabyte Pro

Blackmagic Design Yottabyte Pro

I mean, you can get a Petabyte worth of Blackmagic Cloud Storage for $30K/month. So, why not get a Yottabyte for $100M/month.

You know Apple should do it. Start doing their movies in Digital 32K 15-Perf IMAX Uncompressed RAW. Give Nolan a blank check and buy 1 YB worth of storage in Blackmagic Cloud for the Resolve edit workflow.

As for the URSA and that large screen. Well, I liked the original URSA Mini 5" screen. So maybe a larger URSA with 6-7" flip-out screen.

In fact, I never really use those buttons and dials on the side too much. So going back to a 5" screen, keeping the external status display, the internal ND, and just having the buttons on the back of the flip-out LCD would be good. With the newer 12G 5" VA screen or the 5" Pocket 6K Pro screen you could really have a much better 5" screen on the URSA Mini Pro.

Call me crazy but I'd like to see uncompressed CinemaDNG make a comeback. Or uncompressed RAW of any flavor. Just as an option alongside the rest.

I'd be all for an uncompressed version of BRAW. But I'm sure those VistaVision 16K Uncompressed BRAW files will be pretty massive. Finally gonna need a Yottabyte of storage.

Blackmagic Design THANOS Cinema Camera 16K

Back to that ‘next’ camera screen. Could we agree on a thin 4K 7” screen?

Coming back to this thread. I caught the BMCC6K Review from Northwest Camera Co. where they compare it to an Alexa Mini LF.

So, the 5" screen on the Pockets and the BMCC6K is really awesome to have. So yes, a 5-7" screen on the next URSA would be fantastic. Especially if it was to help with a 12K-16K VistaVision sensor so you can perfectly see the details.

Northwest Camera Co. is certainly right in their sum up that the BMCC6K lacks the proper professional I/O. We really need the SDI ports on the URSA. But a Lemo Port for Timecode could help free up some extra space. Overall, we really need two models like the original intent of the URSA and URSA Mini.

So whatever the name of the next camera there needs to be two models, one larger and one smaller.

As we approach the new year we could see this new model announced early March or around NAB time.

They certainly didn't knock it out of the park with the 6kFF.
Pretty much outdated the day it was released. All in the same outdated, but bulkier, pocket camera firm factor.

They certainly didn't knock it out of the park with the 6kFF.
Pretty much outdated the day it was released. All in the same outdated, but bulkier, pocket camera firm factor.

For sure. I feel like the 6KFF was a stop gap release. Getting Mirrorless Mount into their ecosystem, getting CFExpress Cards into the ecosystem, and finally embracing Full Frame sensor size. But all that wasn't enough to get me interested in the camera that was released.

My thoughts are that we'll finally see new body cameras in 2024. My hope is that it's the kind of release that makes a lot of people happy. This is the ten year anniversary of the release of the original URSA. So it's time for a new lineup.

They certainly didn't knock it out of the park with the 6kFF.
Pretty much outdated the day it was released. All in the same outdated, but bulkier, pocket camera firm factor.

For sure. I feel like the 6KFF was a stop gap release. Getting Mirrorless Mount into their ecosystem, getting CFExpress Cards into the ecosystem, and finally embracing Full Frame sensor size. But all that wasn't enough to get me interested in the camera that was released.

My thoughts are that we'll finally see new body cameras in 2024. My hope is that it's the kind of release that makes a lot of people happy. This is the ten year anniversary of the release of the original URSA. So it's time for a new lineup.

Yeah. I had to move to the Panasonic early last year to go 6k, as I didn't want an EF mount camera.
I use the Blackmagic video assist with it.
But I'll happily go back to Blackmagic for internal raw of they change the firm factor and add things like ibis.

Although it may not impact BMD’s thinking, seeing the video footage from the recent iPhone camera system, I wonder if BMD is rethinking their original approach to CinenaDNG and later to BRAW in which there is no in-camera sharpening and noise reduction. I’m not a fan of the degree of over-sharpening going on which is going to prevent my production use of the iPhone 14 for clients, but noise reduction in camera might be something they’re considering in their next camera family.

Even though the BMCC6K gets very good reviews when the sensor is fed lots of light, inevitably there are shooting situations where their BMCC6K target customer base is dealing with insufficient light beyond the shooter’s control. Perhaps Sony will release a better sensor rather than keep their best sensors restricted.

We’re not all working on million dollar productions, eh? The way Resolve works on my Mac Pro 2019, I have to leave noise reduction to the last step before Deliver because I can’t playback Edit and Colour at the proper frame rate. (I don’t use caches anymore due to other data resource management headaches.)

I suspect camera internal noise reduction with user control will result in lower light images that are an improvement over the current BMCC6K. The sensor in my BMPCC4K appears to do a better job handling modest low light. Adding that capability to the next camera family may end up being as important as an evolution or revolution of the URSA-designed bodies.

To me the benefits of the many feature improvements of the BMCC6K are there in spades. BMD deserves credit for adding those changes. Except for this nagging concern about lower light shooting and the difficulty of rigging the camera body in some situations.

The better sensor and increased image processing may add to the next camera price of course, in spite of what the iPhone (and other phones) can do. I’m not in favour of duplicating the phone’s achievements because the end result isn’t really as suitable in my mind as Apple and the press and bloggers claim. I’ll likely delete my 2+ hours of production footage because I don’t feel I can use it… maybe in a future phone?

How sensitive is the BMD customer base to price? BMD must have thought “less is more” (less per unit dollars but more units sold) was important given their recent price reductions.

I wish I was a better customer…

I prefer completely to do noise reduction in post with Neatvideo. Maybe if they just have noise reduction in camera that doesn't get baked in woujd be a an option.

The big question for me, is whether this theoretical new body comes with a *bespoke* new sensor too.

I have a hard time believing BM are returning to using off-the-shelf sensors exclusively, so it stands to reason whatever they're designing from the ground up next time will be full frame, right? The BMCC6K makes more sense if you consider it a Frankensteined dry run to get full frame, L mount, and CFexpress into the ecosystem without waiting another year or two for completed sensor design and fabrication.

The big question for me, is whether this theoretical new body comes with a *bespoke* new sensor too.

I have a hard time believing BM are returning to using off-the-shelf sensors exclusively...

As has been mentioned previously, the next camera could be a 16K version of BMD’s 12K RGBWWW technology.

How would it be marketed? 16K sensor for 12K capture or 8K downscaled in camera? I think 16K->12K may still make sense, but it’s a camera that may appeal to those delivering 8K which may be growing in importance in some markets. Still it can be risky to go to 16K 36x24mm sensors.

6K 32x24mm was less of a risk since it was off-the-shelf and would appeal to those who would expect larger pixels to benefit latitude which may not occur as it turns out) and CFexpress signaled a welcome upgrade (among other changes) that would lead to other high datarate captures. But I don’t think it’s an easy task BMD have and we haven’t a clue if this new camera will happen this year or next.

I predicted 16K FF/VV from the very introduction of the 12K S35. And, if you go far back enough on these forums I asked why no CFExpress for the 12K when introduced in July of 2020.

Looking at the BMD history I have found that they stick to a build for as long as they can. Cinema 2.5K & 4K kept same body. URSA 4K & URSA Mini 4K kept same sensor in complimentary bodies. URSA Mini 4.6K, UMPG1, & UMPG2 kept the 4.6K Sensor with body and internal improvements. 12K & 12K OLPF kept the sensor and body, with only an OLPF. HD Pocket had one body, then a new body for the 4K, which lead to the Pocket 6K and onward.

It's time for a shakeup body lineup wise. If Blackmagic was to use the original concept of URSA and URSA Mini then we would definitely end up with an URSA Mini Pro basis for the A-Cam and an URSA Micro body type as the B-Cam. The sensor is the main question, but it should end up being uniform across both bodies. Thus a 16K VistaVision from the current 12K sensor.

Blackmagic hasn't changed the formula too much in the last 5-years. Using their same body builds and similar sensors. Something is cooking for them. The framework is in place for them to introduce something amazing.

Don't forget they are currently beta testing the Camera 2 Cloud features with the Broadcast. Proxies going via Camera 2 Cloud for the Cinema Cameras is inevitable. It will be a part of the next Cinema Camera. I think this year our minds will be blown.

Think you guys are probably on the money, just not sure if 2024 is gonna be the year.

Surely they'd want to put a bit more distance between the BMCC6K and the next thing not to burn consumers who bought the stopgap release. Unless of course the BMCC6K sold like **** and BM doesn't want to lose more market share in the meanwhile?

With the 6kFF release, it will most likely be the last of the pocket body design cameras.
There's no need for a G2, in my opinion, since Internal NDs aren't an option and a dimmer screen wouldn't do much to lower the cost, I think.

I would be absolutely thrilled if they released two cameras that had the same sensor in them. I know the Pocket 6k sensor has been put in multiple bodies, but utilizing the 12k sensor in more design HAS to be the next thing, right? I wonder of the 12k OLPF will be the last Ursa Mini body design we see or if they will figure out a way to put a VV or FF sensor in it.

I recently graded a commercial that was shot on Alexa 35 and that thing looked ridiculous. So much dynamic range and color. Even paired up with an Alexa Mini for interviews, the color on the Alexa 35 is incredibly rich. I could see BMD releasing two bodies this year with Gen6 Color science or something.

Since I moved on to the 6k FF, I've been happy with the camera. Sure, it's not as good in low light at the 6k Pro, but i really love the images I get out of it. Paired with a 12k, it's a really solid combo.

Price-wise, I wonder where a new camera will fit. If they are able to do $8000-$10000 on a 'big boy' camera and a $3500-$4500 on a mini version, I think that would be decent enough and have people considering BMD again (for those that have jumped ship).

BM is really going to have to step up their game.

I recently graded a commercial that was shot on Alexa 35 and that thing looked ridiculous. So much dynamic range and color. Even paired up with an Alexa Mini for interviews, the color on the Alexa 35 is incredibly rich. I could see BMD releasing two bodies this year with Gen6 Color science or something.

Yeah, that Alexa 35 is incredible. Hands down the toughest sensor to beat yet. The dynamic range and color is just world class. It helps that ARRIRAW now can do 17-Bit Linear and 13-Bit Log. And, it proves that resolution isn't the most important aspect as it only is 4.6K like the BMD lineup used to use. If Arri went LF with the 35 sensor then it would be 6.5K for VistaVision/Full Frame. So maybe with the way the LF was slightly larger then it would be 7K, but even then they wouldn't care to go full 8K. Maybe a new Alexa 65 II will be above 8K in resolution and be that amazing 65mm size.

I would love for BMD to release two camera bodies with the Full Frame/VistaVision sensors and Gen 6 Color Science. A focus on Dynamic Range and Color would be most important. I'd love for Blackmagic to also increase bit depth on the Blackmagic RAW side to get more color information.

The most important physical changes to the body I've talked about elsewhere. But, I really do hope that camera control through the Video Assist becomes a part of it all. Along with putting an updated EVF design into it all. I cannot stress how important the Viewfinder has been to my use of the URSA cameras for the last 8-years. But it is time for a change in the physical design.

And then, see Steve Yedlin (ASC) about resolution.

I would love for BMD to release two camera bodies with the Full Frame/VistaVision sensors and Gen 6 Color Science. A focus on Dynamic Range and Color would be most important. I'd love for Blackmagic to also increase bit depth on the Blackmagic RAW side to get more color information.

I think the biggest question will be: where is BM going to source the sensor that ticks those boxes without making a camera that costs what an Alexa costs.

Where did they get the 12k sensor? I think BMD have said it was either designed or manufactured in house. The bigger question is not where they would get it but who would buy it. Already the 8K haters say they don't need it or even want it, and the 12K non-OLP was discounted heavily before it was discontinued. If people really want to encourage continued development, they should support the existing products.

Designed by BMD and manufactured by a third-party fabrication facility according to BMD’s criteria.

There’s only a handful of so-called „fabs“ on the whole planet.
I don’t think any camera manufacturer is making its own sensors.

The mass majority of camera sensors are manufactured by Sony. Even the sensors in the Hassleblad and FujiFilm Medium Format Cameras. And, this is ironic considering that Sony doesn't even have a Medium Format Samera of their own.

Read this today: https://ymcinema.com/2024/01/09/will-so ... ma-camera/

If I was to buy the camera people ask for the most it would be a Sony. The FX6 is the camera de jour, and is the most requested camera in job postings. "Filming Interviews & B-Roll. (Sony to match what is previously shot.)" Is what I see most often.

I would love for people to come to the realization that you don't need to use a Sony for separate interviews and b-roll when Resolve Color Management makes it so easy to match different cameras. But too many people are still stuck in Premiere and their crap color management. Producers need to learn about the magic of Resolve. And, thus the camera wouldn't matter as much and they'd take a Blackmagic without question.

Still, the Sony does have the edge with certain features. Yet, Blackmagic has the better image quality and internal raw option.

NAB 2024 should be very interesting.

I doubt BM will be able to match the tracking and AF of Sonys and some other hybrid cameras. There most be years of development by large teams behind these, plus having in-house lens development. I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong.

If these points are key for your work, go for those.
But if you want great cinematic colours and can't afford an Arri (which also doesn't have such AF), go for a BM camera!

After releasing new micro studio camera, could the change come from ursa broadcast camera? G2 is prehistoric model now

They need a camera that will compete with the red in both sensor and form factor.