Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

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Sebem

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Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Feb 21, 2014 8:29 pm

Hi everybody,

I've just received my BMPC4K but I've got a problem. There are vertical lines on every frames (except in the very hight lights). As you can see in the attached pictures, the quality is not there. (Open files in a new tab)

Do you think it's a sensor issue ?

(Tested with Tamron 17-50mm F2.8 and Canon 50mm F1.8)

PS : Excuse my poor french-english.

BMPC-1.jpg
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BMPC-2.jpg
BMPC-2.jpg (512.52 KiB) Viewed 31550 times

BMPC-3.jpg
BMPC-3.jpg (664.63 KiB) Viewed 31550 times
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Sebem

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Feb 21, 2014 8:31 pm

... and another one outside. Stripes are in the clouds.

BMPC-4.jpg
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Haakon Sundry

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Feb 21, 2014 8:42 pm

I noticed it pretty severely in Jeff's footage here, too:

https://vimeo.com/groups/230878/videos/86947857

(download the "original" version).

It's pretty concerning, IMO.
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Graham Parker

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Feb 21, 2014 8:59 pm

http://levelup.geek.nz/ - Rental Gear for New Zealand
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Sebem

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Feb 21, 2014 9:09 pm

Yep, thanks LostBoyNZ. I've already saw it but I don't want to denoise every shot.
And when I'm behind the camera I dont want to see all those lines to, it's very disturbing (see the file).
To me, it's not a solution.

bmpc-back.jpg
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Graham Parker

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Feb 21, 2014 9:34 pm

That does seem rather extreme there yeah, considering it's ISO 400. Are they still there at 360 degree shutter angle and maximum aperture? I can't quite see what those settings are on your screen.
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Sebem

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Feb 21, 2014 9:56 pm

On the last screen : 400 ASA / 360°.
I'm uploading the video of the 4 first shoot (of this thread).
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Sebem

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Feb 21, 2014 10:58 pm

And here is the video :
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Patrick Jennings

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostSat Feb 22, 2014 5:03 pm

I just got my 4k camera and also have the same issue... is there an answer to this? faulty kit? needs replacing? or are they all like this?
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robreed

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostSun Feb 23, 2014 6:40 pm

What is going on here..??????????

Ive been blown away by the footage…but there is no way I'm going to buy one now>?
Is this normal….or do we have yet another BM fault…?
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Sebem

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostSun Feb 23, 2014 10:10 pm

Waiting for an official answer of Blackmagic.
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Dmitry Kitsov

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostSun Feb 23, 2014 10:52 pm

Are these lines static frame to frame? Do they change? Are they affected by shutter?
Dmitry Kitsov
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Sebem

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 12:24 am

Lines are statics, as is something was put between the sensor and the lens (but thats not the case).

@200ASA you can see them only in the mid/low light zone (even if you scene is "well lighted")
@400ASA you can now see them even a little in the highlight. They are more prominent than the 200.
@800ASA its the fiesta ! Ugly lines in hight/mid/low lights.

The shutter only affect they way they appears. Those lines get the image "clearer/lighter", so you cant see them in the very highlights. They are only in the mid/low tones.


(again : excuse my frenglish ^^)

See the line on the half-left of the image, between the nose and the eye and in the bottom of the nose. (watch the attached file in a new tab)
cap1.jpg
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Sebem

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 12:31 am

New captures from a .mov.
Watch all those images in full size.


1 - @200ASA (imagine at 400 or 800 -_-). Lines in the cloud and the top right sky. You cant discern it a little in the waves to.
cap2.jpg
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2 - @200ASA, in the clouds and in the see.
cap3.jpg
cap3.jpg (865.58 KiB) Viewed 31112 times


3 - @200ASA and F16 ... "I see dead lines everywheeeere"
cap4.jpg
cap4.jpg (648.87 KiB) Viewed 31112 times
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Patrick Jennings

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 2:47 am

This is exactly what i'm seeing!!!! It's in all the footage...

It's almost impossible to see on a still if you don't know what you're looking for. But it's definitely there in the footage!

I just called tech support here in Melbourne, Australia and they didn't seem to be aware of the issue...

I'm gonna send mine back :(
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Sebem

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 2:56 am

I think I'll do the same this week :/
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 3:11 am

It would be nice to hear something from BM on this issue. It's one thing if you are pushing lowlight footage. However footage captured outdoors in daylight shouldn't have this banding I don't think (unless you are under exposing and pushing)
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Cousinducky

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 7:28 am

Patrick Jennings wrote:.... they didn't seem to be aware of the issue...


How convenient for them. :lol:
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Dmitry Kitsov

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 8:20 am

Guys, try shooting a black video by covering the lens cap (same exposure same shutter speed same ISO) after filming a clip, then using blending modes in resolve or after effects to subtract black video from your normally shot video. If you grade normally shot video copy the same grade to a black video. Curious if this technique will work.
This would should happen inside the camera in the fly though. But would be interesting to see a proof of concept.
Dmitry Kitsov
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 8:46 am

Dmitry Kitsov wrote:Guys, try shooting a black video by covering the lens cap (same exposure same shutter speed same ISO) after filming a clip, then using blending modes in resolve or after effects to subtract black video from your normally shot video. If you grade normally shot video copy the same grade to a black video. Curious if this technique will work.
This would should happen inside the camera in the fly though. But would be interesting to see a proof of concept.


Okay I have this footage but I am new to resolve. How do I setup the nodes so that one clip is the top of the layer mixer and another clip is the subtraction node? Whenever I work with nodes they always seem to be around the same clip.
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Hannu Koivuranta

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 9:03 am

Hi everyone,

I had a similar problem with the Cinema Camera (MFT). The only difference was that the lines were horizontal. They appeared in semi-low and low light situations and kept moving in a wave-like rhythm which would suggest some kind of electrical problem. This I don't know for sure.

I got an RMA for the camera and sent it to BMD. It came back after a week and the problem was gone.

--
Hannu Koivuranta / Cinematographer
hannu.koivuranta@gmail.com
Hannu Koivuranta / Cinematographer
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hannu.koivuranta@gmail.com
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 9:10 am

Scott Pultz wrote:
Dmitry Kitsov wrote:Guys, try shooting a black video by covering the lens cap (same exposure same shutter speed same ISO) after filming a clip, then using blending modes in resolve or after effects to subtract black video from your normally shot video. If you grade normally shot video copy the same grade to a black video. Curious if this technique will work.
This would should happen inside the camera in the fly though. But would be interesting to see a proof of concept.


Okay I have this footage but I am new to resolve. How do I setup the nodes so that one clip is the top of the layer mixer and another clip is the subtraction node? Whenever I work with nodes they always seem to be around the same clip.


I think I figured out how to do this but I'm so far unsuccessful in making the image look better. I can try more tomorrow.
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 9:10 am

Hannu Koivuranta wrote:Hi everyone,

I had a similar problem with the Cinema Camera (MFT). The only difference was that the lines were horizontal. They appeared in semi-low and low light situations and kept moving in a wave-like rhythm which would suggest some kind of electrical problem. This I don't know for sure.

I got an RMA for the camera and sent it to BMD. It came back after a week and the problem was gone.

--
Hannu Koivuranta / Cinematographer
hannu.koivuranta@gmail.com


I think this is a different issue as the pattern is not moving.
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Grzegorz Styczen

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 9:11 am

Dmitry Kitsov wrote:Guys, try shooting a black video by covering the lens cap (same exposure same shutter speed same ISO) after filming a clip, then using blending modes in resolve or after effects to subtract black video from your normally shot video. If you grade normally shot video copy the same grade to a black video. Curious if this technique will work.
This would should happen inside the camera in the fly though. But would be interesting to see a proof of concept.


I tried it with BMCC, but the fixed pattern noise seems to disappear with completly no light hitting the sensor, it needs some kind of low exposure to suddenly pop out.

I can't see it on the bmcc below 800 asa, though, shame for bmpc4k for this -- I can clearly see the pattern noise on properly exposed 4k shots all over the internet. The extent to which a bunch of forum users will defend blackmagic and neglect issues with their products.. baffles me sometimes...
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ryanJenkins

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 1:24 pm

i have a "ticket" open with tech support and have the same exact issues. I posted about it in the general section as I didn't know where else to plop it. Hopefully I hear from them soon and will report back on my findings.

apparently leaving the camera on for an extended period of time helps, but this also means that if I am to record an hour of video from camera start up, that the footage is gradually changing over the course of the shoot as the banding lines go away.
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David Dearing

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 3:38 pm

Vertical lines like that are column defects. You can google it to learn more. BM uses class B chips in their cameras. When sensor manufacturers grade their chips, they price them accordingly. A class A CMOS of 8mp, for example, might cost $3000, where a Class B would be $500 or less. DSLRs all use class B chips. Only very high end cameras such as very expensive astrophotography cameras, high end specialty cameras that cost $20k plus, and cameras such as the RED or Alexa use Class A chips.

When you get a class B chip from the manufacturer, it doesn't say why the manufacturer gave it the lower rating, but usually it is because the number of hot pixels exceeds a certain threshold. Only when shooting long exposure shots at high amplification (anything over 800ISO/ASA in the BMPCC's case) will hot pixels be an issue, so they work well normally. But column defects are also present in a few sensors, and there really is nothing you can do about that except get another chip, or only shoot in very good lighting situations. I have no idea why BM doesn't test each chip before they stick it in a camera- they could identify column defects very easily on a bench and toss the bad ones- but they don't, so it's a crap shoot for the customer.

Long story short: If you have column defects visible in your image (usually Class B column defects are at the edges of the chip out of view), send your camera back for an exchange.
David Dearing
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 5:28 pm

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Charly Doo

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 6:31 pm

Is there any BMPC 4k user who has not experienced banding? I'm extremely disappointed by this. It makes the camera useless. But I have not seen any material without the problem, you could send the camera back 40 times and experience the same issue.
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Vince Gaffney

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 6:38 pm

Charly Doo wrote:Is there any BMPC 4k user who has not experienced banding? I'm extremely disappointed by this. It makes the camera useless. But I have not seen any material without the problem, you could send the camera back 40 times and experience the same issue.


I tried to reproduce it shooting a black canvas bag underexposed and pushing it in FCPX and QT7 and I get some noise but not geometric patterns or stripes, vertical or otherwise.
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 7:58 pm

Vince Gaffney wrote:
Charly Doo wrote:Is there any BMPC 4k user who has not experienced banding? I'm extremely disappointed by this. It makes the camera useless. But I have not seen any material without the problem, you could send the camera back 40 times and experience the same issue.


I tried to reproduce it shooting a black canvas bag underexposed and pushing it in FCPX and QT7 and I get some noise but not geometric patterns or stripes, vertical or otherwise.


Try shooting something more mid exposure, like a gray card or something.
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Vince Gaffney

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 8:06 pm

Scott Pultz wrote:
Vince Gaffney wrote:
Charly Doo wrote:Is there any BMPC 4k user who has not experienced banding? I'm extremely disappointed by this. It makes the camera useless. But I have not seen any material without the problem, you could send the camera back 40 times and experience the same issue.


I tried to reproduce it shooting a black canvas bag underexposed and pushing it in FCPX and QT7 and I get some noise but not geometric patterns or stripes, vertical or otherwise.


Try shooting something more mid exposure, like a gray card or something.


I also shot a wall that's tan and flat and about 35% grey neighborhood. Under exposed. Properly exposed. Over exposed. Opened it in QT 7, blew it up 200%, actual size and fit to screen. Pushed the brightness slider all over. Same with Contrast slider. Still nothing but a bit of noise.
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 8:16 pm

Same. For the most part, if I'm at 400, I'm not experiencing any drastic FPN.

I have to be on the extreme side, and even then I've been able to pull things out of the dark without this happening

Big question: What firmware are you guys on?

Update to the latest firmware to see if that helps.

You can also download a 4K proRes file here:

It's foggy out, and I'm underexposing a lot to protect highlights. I even sharpened the footage, without reducing any noise.

I don't see any offensive FPN or patterns, personally.

Just trying to help!
Kholi Hicks
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 8:47 pm

Kholi wrote:Same. For the most part, if I'm at 400, I'm not experiencing any drastic FPN.

I have to be on the extreme side, and even then I've been able to pull things out of the dark without this happening

Big question: What firmware are you guys on?

Update to the latest firmware to see if that helps.

You can also download a 4K proRes file here:

It's foggy out, and I'm underexposing a lot to protect highlights. I even sharpened the footage, without reducing any noise.

I don't see any offensive FPN or patterns, personally.

Just trying to help!


Hi Kholi,

You are correct that it isn't too offensive. Maybe some people have it worse than others.

I just watched your footage without down sampling it first. Right on the first frame there is a guy wearing a dark top holding an iPhone or something. You can see FPN along with the random noise as the camera moves a bit. I saw it in other places too but this was the easiest to describe where to look :)
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 8:53 pm

Yeah on my retina, and here in the theater pushed through the Barco I'm just not seeing it =T I'll try to look on a different source, maybe the Dell 24 will show it?

Edit: I can see where you're pointing too now, off to the left of the frame. Suppose if you're looking for it then it's there. Personally it doesn't bother me so I'm in the minority on this one.

When I'm actually looking at people, I don't see it.

Don't quote me, but it may just be how the camera is, and requires noise reduction if it's offensive, or if it doesn't fade with downsampling to 1080/2K. The camera doesn't do any noise reduction, of course, so I guess give and take!
Kholi Hicks
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Vince Gaffney

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 8:59 pm

Kholi wrote:Yeah on my retina, and here in the theater pushed through the Barco I'm just not seeing it =T I'll try to look on a different source, maybe the Dell 24 will show it?

Edit: I can see where you're pointing too now, off to the left of the frame. Suppose if you're looking for it then it's there. Personally it doesn't bother me so I'm in the minority on this one.

When I'm actually looking at people, I don't see it.


I have tried to find it in every bit of footage I've shot (which isn't much) and I'm just not seeing it. Noise, yes. Any other patterns or distortions or whatever, no. And that's on a 23" full HD and a Sony Luma series monitor. Unless it's so subtle I'm missing it. But look for it is a good way to drive myself crazy.....
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John Brawley

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostMon Feb 24, 2014 9:00 pm

c131frdave wrote: BM uses class B chips in their cameras. When sensor manufacturers grade their chips, they price them accordingly. A class A CMOS of 8mp, for example, might cost $3000, where a Class B would be $500 or less. DSLRs all use class B chips. Only very high end cameras such as very expensive astrophotography cameras, high end specialty cameras that cost $20k plus, and cameras such as the RED or Alexa use Class A chips.


That is not at all my understanding of how BMD source their sensors.

And as far as I know, Arri SPECIFICALLY designed their sensor as a custom manufacture. It is not an "off the shelf" sensor. Same with RED Dragon. It's been designed from the ground up for one specific product. This process takes millions of dollars and is usually in planning for 1-2 years before you get a sensor.

Therefore there's no such thing as "Class A" or "Class B" in these instances.


c131frdave wrote: I have no idea why BM doesn't test each chip before they stick it in a camera- they could identify column defects very easily on a bench and toss the bad ones- but they don't, so it's a crap shoot for the customer.


Every sensor installed has to go through a calibration routine at BMD. Saying that BMD don't "test" them is pretty misleading. They must or else the sensor would actually be littered with dead pixels and have a lot more FPN.

At 400 @ 180 deg in normal shooting conditions you shouldn't be seeing FPN. If you are, then check with BMD / Service.

jb
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Sergi DIT

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostWed Mar 05, 2014 9:49 am

Hi from Barcelona!

More than a couple of years ago, when the first Arri Alexa's were released I had a very similar experience. Those noisy vertical lines all over the frame.

The thing is, that they are always there, not only in low light conditions. ALWAYS, in low lights is when you are able to see those.

In fact, although they are visible you don't see those lines until they are evident, then, you see them everywhere, including the normal light shots. Tricky things.

I recommend always, before shooting anything with any camera to do some tests, especially one to look for those patterns. It is quite simple, just put the cap on, put the ASA to 3200 and look at that black.

What you do with that is quite simple, it is just to raise the electronic noise all over the frame, then you will be able to see if any noise pattern exists and even if any dead pixel is in the sensor.

A year and a half ago I found another Alexa with the same problem.

Up to today, no answer from Arri about that. All I know is that they change the sensor of the cameras. Because, yes, it is the sensor, and as somebody said before, there is nothing we can do about it but change it.

Hope that helps!
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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostTue Mar 18, 2014 5:45 am

Having exact same issue unfortunately. Really embarrassing. I contacted BMD over the phone directly. They started off by deeply apologizing which made it sound like this is a world-wide issue. They also said they were 99% sure it can be resolved by a firmware update. I sure hope so, as I can't really wait another 7 months for a replacement BMPC.

I sold my BMCC to buy the BMPC, which worked fine. Can't help but feel a bit frustrated. I'm sure BMD is feeling the pressure.
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davedunville

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostTue Mar 18, 2014 5:50 am

Sebem wrote:Waiting for an official answer of Blackmagic.


See my post above. As "official" as it gets at the moment. They mentioned to stay tuned for updates, and that their developers are working full-time to resolve the issue. Peace of mind? I don't know. They didn't give me a timeline. But they said worst case, they'll advance RMA cameras to people with the issue if it can't be resolved by an update. But again, they're claiming they're 99% sure (according to the representative for BMD on the phone) that it can be resolved with a firmware update. Cross your fingers.
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Samjack

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostTue Mar 18, 2014 6:51 am

If it is 99% sure or even no chance of a firmware fix BMD should make an announcement about it and that they are working on a fix. Not making an announcement make BMD look like not appreciating or acknowledging there is a problem.
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Mark Davies

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostTue Mar 18, 2014 6:07 pm

bm9.jpg
Even in bright daylight the banding is still there???
Mark Davies
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Mark Davies

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostTue Mar 18, 2014 6:48 pm

Why do some cameras not have any banding?
Mark Davies
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willkamp

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostThu Mar 20, 2014 7:54 pm

So, I have had this problem with my camera. It seems intermittent.

vimeo.com/flashbox/bmpcbanding

You'll see it is VERY prominent after being on for about 3 hours and then i filmed with the sensor cap for 3/19
Then it is less prominent after being turned on and filmed on 3/20 when i let it cool overnight.
Finally in the video in my Living room (yes this was not set-up or lit, it is natural light at about 11:00am PDT) also on 3/20 after being powered up for 20 minutes. This was exposed based on the zebras @75%. I did not use UltraScopes. Maybe I should have. Alas, I dont have a laptop, so oh well.

Anway, the lines are introduced on the TV by stopping down 1 stop from properly exposed (according to the zebras).

HOWEVER The f/2 (which is 75% on the face so closer to proper exposure) looks overexposed here, and the F2.8 looks properly exposed on the skin, with slight underexposure on the TV. If I can't use the dynamic range of this camera, and every time i look into the shadows, even though my subject is properly exposed, I see these lines, this camera is COMPLETELY USELESS.

Imagine a silhouette scene, will there always be lines in the silhouette's while the properly exposed background is fine? That isn't ok.

What about a light slash across someone's eyes, ala 50's lighting, or a noir, is everything else in the frame, which is underexposed, going to have these lines?

This makes the camera good for... dream sequences only.

haha. Hope BMD Can fix this. I have sent all of this too them as well per their request.

Best of luck everyone

Will


*EDIT*

Screen Shot 2014-03-20 at 1.51.22 PM.png
Screen Shot 2014-03-20 at 1.51.22 PM.png (30.26 KiB) Viewed 29937 times


Based on recent messing in Resolve, I see that the F/2 footage is properly exposed on the skin (right side), HOWEVER it appears that the DR above that proper exposure (which should be 18% gray) is incredibly small. Maybe 1 or 2 stops. As you see the highlights are almost hitting the 9th zone, while the lowest "shadows" are hitting the 3rd zone. While the rest of the image is in underexposure... so all the information is recorded in the shadows, or the prores lut is way off. I need to do a test with some gray cards, or something, but it will take me a while to set-up this test. I'll try and do it in the next couple days.
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brent k

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostThu Mar 20, 2014 11:47 pm

Mark2929 wrote:Why do some cameras not have any banding?

They all have the banding. My guess is the company tried to update old firmware to use for this camera, and it's not jiving....... Could take a month to fix, could take years; Such is the software biz.
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Scott Pultz

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Mar 21, 2014 12:01 am

davedunville wrote:Having exact same issue unfortunately. Really embarrassing. I contacted BMD over the phone directly. They started off by deeply apologizing which made it sound like this is a world-wide issue. They also said they were 99% sure it can be resolved by a firmware update. I sure hope so, as I can't really wait another 7 months for a replacement BMPC.

I sold my BMCC to buy the BMPC, which worked fine. Can't help but feel a bit frustrated. I'm sure BMD is feeling the pressure.


The beta testers had reported these issues to them before launch. Seems like if it could be fixed in firmware that they would have waited in order to save the public outrage of the banding. Then again they probably had to get the camera out so that they could announce its replacement...
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ORyan McEntire

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Mar 21, 2014 2:28 am

I'm also getting this issue and sent Blackmagic a support request. I ended up calling them and speaking to Richard after not hearing from them for a while.

If I had to guess as to the cause of the issue it would be that during assembly the cameras go through a calibration process that assigns a FNP profile to the sensor. In some cases this profile is no longer accurate (or maybe never was) and now some cameras are exhibiting the vertical banding. It's possible that the profile could even be causing the issue. Of course this is completely an uneducated guess.

When I spoke to BMD, the rep told me that he didn't have an answer at the time and they are still trying to determine if this can be fixed via firmware or not.

Here is my interaction with BMD via email so far:

ORyan(Client) Posted On: 15 March 2014 03:14 AM

Subject/Title: Fixed Noise pattern on BMPC 4k footage

Enquiry: I just received my Production Camera today and had a chance to go out and shoot a bit with it. I noticed that there are vertical bands of Fixed Pattern Noise all over the footage. Most of the footage was properly exposed and shot at 200 and 400 ASA with a fast prime lenses.

The vertical noise basically renders this camera useless in most settings. I have noticed there are many instances of this issue in the forums, but Blackmagic has not confirmed or addressed this issue publicly.

I'd like to correct this problem so that I can start using my camera. What can we do to fix this?

I am also seeing the black/purple Sun issue as well, but that has been addressed in the forums already. I primarily just want to know how we can fix the vertical banding.


ORyan,

Thank you for calling in regarding your email below.

As I stated over the phone, it definitely sounds like a known issue that we are trying to track down and sort out on our end. If you can please take a moment to respond to this email, with a few screen grabs/images of the issue you are describing, so that I can forward on the the Product Manager that would be very helpful. We want to confirm that this is the known issue that we are in the process of working out, and not a different issue that needs to be addressed.

Thank you for your patience and understanding. I will be back in touch as soon as I have additional information to pass along to you

Cheers.




Hope this information was helpful.

Richard T. Chao
Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.


Hey Richard,

Here is a dropbox link to a few stills. All of the files have the ASA that
they were shot at prefixed to the file names. I have not shot anything
above 400ASA yet.
These files are straight out of the camera, no processing has been done to
them. All shot in the "Film" mode.

200 ASA:
Image

400 ASA:
Image

If you need any other samples let me know.


ORyan,

Thank you for sending the files over.

Looking at the images you have provided, it definitely appears to be the known issue that we are working on. The only concern we have is that most of the images you've sent over are very dimly lit. The reason for this concern is that the Blackmagic Production Camera 4K is not a low light camera... and you will want to make sure that your scenes are properly lit/exposed. "Starving" the sensor will also produce a vertical banding "noise" like this.

We certainly don't want to "belittle" your described issue... but in order for us to correctly identify the specific issue you are having, my supervisor has asked if you can send over a couple of more images, that are more brightly lit, and showing that same vertical banding issue.

Again, from the images you have provided, it certainly looks like the known issue we are in the process of addressing, we just want to confirm with as much certainty as possible and attempt to rule out any other causes.

Thank you for your continued patience and help in this matter.

Cheers.



Hope this information was helpful.

Richard T. Chao


Thanks for looking into it. I sent these images because they were the most
obvious and more clearly showed the very even pattern across the sensor. I
am seeing this issue in every one of my shots. Including ones with better
lighting. Also In the many reviews online I have seen examples of low light
scenarios shot with the Production camera that do not produce these FPN
issues.

A few examples would be from Andrew Reid over at EOShd.com

Image

Image

These low light examples look gorgeous and more importantly clean and clear
of any FPN.

While I understand that the Production Camera is in no way a low light
camera, I find it hard to believe that it would be acceptable for a
professional level camera to exhibit such characteristics for a darker
scene with a low ASA. Especially the fixed noise in such a evenly
distributed pattern across the entire image.

I know you guys are just trying to be sure I'm dealing with the same
problem so you're not spinning your wheels. And understand that I work with
high-end professional video cameras on a regular basis. I held out buying a
personal camera because I had not found one that I truly enjoyed the image
until I saw the footage from the production camera. I'm just a bit
frustrated and bummed about the image I am getting out of this camera. It's
no where near the quality of the footage I have been seeing from examples
online.


These are all shot at ASA 200 and the
mid-tones to shadows all exhibit the same unchanging pattern. Let me know
if they work better.

Image

Image

Image

Thanks again



ORyan,

Thank you very much for the additional images.

I am able to confirm at this time that this is the issue that we are currently looking into. My Product Manager, QA, Engineering team are looking into the issue and working on a fix. I'll go ahead and keep your ticket open and in a "In Progress" status, so that I can easily reach back out to you as soon as I have any additional information on this matter.

Thank you again for your patience, understanding, and willingness to work with us through this matter.

Cheers.


Sorry for such a long post, but seeing how BMD hasn't really addressed this issue publicly I thought it might be helpful.
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Jon Northrup

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Mar 21, 2014 2:54 am

You think this is why they dropped the price $1000? I remember Grant (I believe) stated in a post that the delay for shipping was due to sensor issues. Maybe this is one of them and they decided to just ship it anyway.

I want to get this camera fast and badly but this would look terrible. Is anyone experiencing improvement after more use, as in is there a breaking in period?
- Jon
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Mark Davies

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Mar 21, 2014 8:40 am

My camera is now with Black Magic. Just weird how some cameras are affected others aren't. Okay my stab in the dark is the problem must be identifiable and probably something like electrical shielding or calibration but then surely they would have a one size fits all unless every sensor itself is different and again comes down to quality control of the sensor rearing its ugly head again.
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willkamp

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Mar 21, 2014 4:53 pm

jonnyplow wrote:You think this is why they dropped the price $1000? I remember Grant (I believe) stated in a post that the delay for shipping was due to sensor issues. Maybe this is one of them and they decided to just ship it anyway.

I want to get this camera fast and badly but this would look terrible. Is anyone experiencing improvement after more use, as in is there a breaking in period?


No, there is no break in period. Intact my friends originally came with no sensor issues, but after being on a few, they started to appear. I believe the issue also has to do with heat. The past 3 days when I turn mine on it doesn't have the issue, and as the camera is on they become more prevalent.

Very odd stuff
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Mark Davies

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Re: Vertical lines. Sensor problem ?

PostFri Mar 21, 2014 6:21 pm

Sounds like it could be a build of static electricity I'm wondering if its the shielding used.
Mark Davies
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