URSA Cine "Mini" or "Solo"

We are very happy for BM and the new Cine line of cameras. Very exciting developments all around, and we truly hope for resounding success.

However, the lineup does not include a camera that suits our needs.

We would be first in line to buy a simplified version of the 12K Cine camera, designed for solo operators, location shooters, documentaries, etc. We would love to have access to the body size and shape, the new sensor, the accessories, lens mounts, internal NDs, etc.

In our case, we would not need WiFi with SRT streaming for remote client viewing, the assist station, or ethernet. Perhaps with simplified features, such a camera could be priced lower, and appeal to companies and users like us. We believe it would be very popular.

I do agree. There's often times I've gone back to old school methods of the simple camera and viewfinder and a tripod into the woods with a couple actors to shoot a scene. Even then you can pull your own focus. An AC with wireless video and monitoring for wireless focus pulling may join these days.

So I would love for an additional URSA Cine Model that is smaller to come about. Maybe with only the CF Media Module so you can pack a couple cards with you for a multi-day trek. But even still two to three of the 16TB Media Modules might be just enough. Sadly they're big. Yet film crews used to sling rolls of film around the wilderness back in the day... so, yeah maybe the media modules aren't that bad.

We are very happy for BM and the new Cine line of cameras. Very exciting developments all around, and we truly hope for resounding success.

However, the lineup does not include a camera that suits our needs.

We would be first in line to buy a simplified version of the 12K Cine camera, designed for solo operators, location shooters, documentaries, etc. We would love to have access to the body size and shape, the new sensor, the accessories, lens mounts, internal NDs, etc.

In our case, we would not need WiFi with SRT streaming for remote client viewing, the assist station, or ethernet. Perhaps with simplified features, such a camera could be priced lower, and appeal to companies and users like us. We believe it would be very popular.

That would be a great cam for sure and one that would suit me as well for example!
I've always talked about a camera between the Pocket line and the Ursa.
Now it looks like an URSA CINE Mini as you said or a Pyxis Pro

I got my start shooting film solo (and if there was help, they usually knew nothing about filmmaking). Lugging around a very heavy all metal film cameras, multiple film mags, stacks of films cans, changing bags, lenses... and the battery belts! Man, those sucked. I don't miss much of those days. But my operating method remains the same: I am accustomed to operating everything myself, including sound, but the camera needs to be designed to accommodate it. My preference is to have a shoulder mount with a viewfinder, and light enough that I can handhold it in front of me and move it around as needed. The original URSA design works fine, but would be better even smaller. The DSLR style is terrible for it.

Our production owns UMP4.6KG2 + P6KPro for the last 5 years. We love everything about these two cameras, except that they aren't FF sensors since we own vintage photo lens complete sets (Leica / Zeiss).

The options that are newly available just do not cover our needs fully - mostly smaller crew or even single camera operator. While you get a FF sensor you loose on usability - especially with the new box style camera with no internal NDs or even the Pocket style BMCC6KFF.

The Ursa Cine seems a bit strangely designed compared to Ursa Mini; where is the side handle going? We really do not want a fixed screen for a focus puller instead of a mounting plate.

While it is really nice to see that the complete package is offered, the media/battery style/19mm rods/etc. make it less affordable for us even though at first glance the price seems reasonable for what is offered.

We really hope that in the coming future this new beautiful 16 stops sensor finds its way into - for us - more usable body design so we can upgrade our cameras and stay within BMD. For our needs even the old URSA Mini design would be just fine.

At the same time I would like to congratulate Blackmagic Design team for its huge work displayed yesterday - the amount of hours put in are probably endless - and I wish you much commercial success with all of these new models!

Yes, the old URSA body with the rosette would work for us too.

And like you, we have a collection of lenses that would work great on the new larger sensor.

Cine Mini does have a nice ring to it. Being Indi/Doc/Solo I could also do without some of the big production features. But what makes this camera is the sensor, LPL mount and the 8TB media module. Perhaps we will see a leaner version... after the big brother 17K is out of the way.

New cameras only yesterday, people already at it with, "if only it had this." Start your own crowdsource funding for BMD. If you won't buy the existing products, no reason to listen to you.

New cameras only yesterday, people already at it with, "if only it had this." Start your own crowdsource funding for BMD. If you won't buy the existing products, no reason to listen to you.

People are free to express whatever they think about a product regardless of having payed thousands of dollars to a company or not. I don't see a problem here.

People are free to express whatever they think about a product regardless of having payed thousands of dollars to a company or not. I don't see a problem here.

Neither do I - perfectly within their rights to ask for whatever. Nonetheless, I imagine some at BMD are slapping their faces, right now. It's a huge release, that completely surprised me, given the current worldwide economic situation - they obviously have a strong equity and cash fluidity base.

There are the existing Ursas, which are still stellar, in my view; and there is currently no indication they will be dropped soon, I may be wrong. People end up wishing for tools tomorrow, that they already have at hand today. 'If only I had this...I could make that' etc. The Ursa Mini 12K, 4.6 G2 and the Broadcast G2, offer a hell of a lot still, particularly for the owner/operator; and they do neatly fall between the new models.

Notwithstanding also, that we are a day into these new releases and BMD have a habit of introducing new firmware; new accessories etc. But hey I don't get paid to fire their PR and the customer is always right. The only thing that left me cold was the Cut page in Resolve; as a broadcast editor who does now multicam all the time; I wondered if Mr. Petty has ever talked to an editor - it's all on Avid for better or worse, I'll say

There's a lot I love about the new URSA Cine body. Mainly that they listened and did the Lemo Ports up front for the Lens Motors. That's fantastic! The other improvements are also great!

The media is something I'm on the fence about. Yet, it's possible the Media Modules will come down in price over time and we'll see 8TB & 16TB for reasonable cost... Which gets me to 15-years ago when I used SXS on the Sony EX-1. We used 8GB and 16GB cards on that. That was 27-min for 8GB and 54-mini for 16GB all in 1920x1080 resolution at 23.976 with XDCAM EX. The 8TB gets you a lot more recording time in 12K at 3:1 BRAW 24 FPS than having 32GB with the EX-1. So, that's a good deal considering the camera comes with 8TB.

I think having 16TB Modules for a trip would work. It's a lot of space, but if you're shooting 12K at 3:1 BRAW then you know you're going for quality over quantity of footage. 3.7 Hours worth of footage is equivalent to over 15,000 FT of 35mm 3-Perf Film. Not only are you getting VistaVision coverage, but you're also carrying in camera enough storage to have the equivalent of 15 cans of film you'd be lugging around in traditional 3-Perf 35mm. Using the built in 8TB with 9K DCI Super 35mm mode you'd get 4 hours in 3:1 BRAW. Smart filmmakers will know how to use that storage space similar to how our ancestors used film.

So I'm not going to complain about media just yet. It seems Blackmagic has offered a great Proprietary Media Solution that will work out of the box fairly well.

So on to the AC Screen on the right side. I wouldn't mind another model that loses it in favor of some ARRI Rosette and 1/4 and 1/8 inch mounting points. If the camera is a bit smaller by losing the Wi-Fi and such then I'm all for it. As that can function as a B-Cam to the Cine announced currently. But it could also be an A-Cam when needing a lighter and smaller build for out in the field. Both can work in unison. Matching sensors means that they cut together. Both have a purpose.

So, yes I'm all for the URSA Cine Mini. Or maybe call it the URSA Cine LT for "Lite" as that would differentiate it from the URSA Mini line.

So I'm not going to complain about media just yet. It seems Blackmagic has offered a great Proprietary Media Solution that will work out of the box fairly well.

Apparently from that test site video, Tim, it suggested that BMD are planning eventually, units that will take the place of the M2 modules and will provide for CF Express cards, as an alternative; with an obvious resultant restriction on throughput framerates/resolution; though the 1 8TB M2 module included with the purchase, should be sufficient for most shoots.

So I'm not going to complain about media just yet. It seems Blackmagic has offered a great Proprietary Media Solution that will work out of the box fairly well.

Apparently from that test site video, Tim, it suggested that BMD are planning eventually, units that will take the place of the M2 modules and will provide for CF Express cards, as an alternative; with an obvious resultant restriction on throughput framerates/resolution; though the 1 8TB M2 module included with the purchase, should be sufficient for most shoots.

Yes, I saw that and in this thread I pointed that out: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=199324#p1036108

The new storage seems ideal, far better than cards or drives, even if it raises the size, weight, and cost.

B Cam use occurred to me as well.

All of this seems rather obvious, and I am sure BM have thought it all of this through during development. Hopefully our interest will encourage BM to pursue a midrange model.

There are too many reasons for "URSA Cine Mini/Solo/LT" that I am sure it will be announced in the coming future.

16 stops will be a joy to use especially if you do not have the luxury to control all of the light. And 8K mode has 5.5ms rolling shutter. Truly a dream come true FF sensor for us where .braw is the cherry on top!

I'd love it.

Maybe they can find a way to "cripple" the sensor (s35 and/or less resolution?) to make a mini version.

I downloaded the footage and it's by far the best of any BMD camera ever.

Cooling radiators box seems same size to Ursa Mini's to me looking at pictures. So I doubt they would need to cripple anything down. The reason for bigger body is probably in bigger flippy screen and new media bay. And you can already go into s35 crop mode which is very useful for classic cine glass.

It seems on the surface of things, the URSA Mini endoskeleton remains and that is not such a bad thing in a "if it ain't broke don't fix it sort of a way". It is far better for a design to mature rather than go full novel and run into unexpected problems.

As for the missing side-handle. How many folk really appreciated it. The rosette mount in the right side case was a liability. One tripod fall and chances are?? It was a hangover from DSLR ergonomics.

The viewscreen in the right? Among other things, on a lightweight barebones shoot, the inevitable crowd on the left side trying to watch replays on the left side screen will now spread out. If some fool hangs a toe in a cable, there will now be a cordon of surrounding humans to catch the falling baby.

The right side screen and control set will also be handy for a barebones camera filming from a two seat cabin aircraft as the only options are viewing out of the right side. The left mounted viewscreen becomes totally useless. Yes I know, use a Go Pro or an Osmo on a gymbal stick.

The workspace in a small aircraft is too confined for add-ons like monitors. 3G steep turns anyone?

Cooling radiators box seems same size to Ursa Mini's to me looking at pictures. So I doubt they would need to cripple anything down. The reason for bigger body is probably in bigger flippy screen and new media bay. And you can already go into s35 crop mode which is very useful for classic cine glass.

I meant cripple the sensor not because of heat, but because of a lower retail price of a Mini or Solo variant.

Alexa35 proves s35 is en vogue again and I'd guess most people would be fine with lower resolutions, too if they can get their hands on those colors and dynamic range.

Understood. I am no sensor tech expert, but they already made s35 12K. Now FF again in 12K. I don't know if this 12K is a must with this type of sensor technology but in theory "just cut smaller pieces of the sensor plate" and offer it for cheaper seems logical.

I downloaded the footage and it's by far the best of any BMD camera ever.

The footage is insane. Period.

Resolve 19 and its "cinematic" film look FX. One click and you could actually export that DCP. WHAT?!!!

We might start putting money aside for this thing plus bulking up for its weight. F these little details.

Just noticed that B&H no longer list the Blackmagic Design URSA Mini Pro 12K. They only have the OLPF version.

Perhaps the 12k Super 35 sensor models are being phased out to be replaced by similarly priced models with the new sensor?

So analyzing the size difference between the URSA Cine and the URSA Mini Pro line. Generally the same, with fraction of inches bigger in width and height. UCine sits at 6" solid for both while UMP was 5.92" Wide and 5.78" Tall. So that's a fraction of a difference. The real difference comes in the length: UCine sits at 11" while the UMP (with PL Mount) sat at 9.2". The UMPG2 with EF sat at 8.23" so that helps determine how much the PL added in length. The UCine also has its length using the B-Mount Battery Mount while the UMP cameras both didn't include a Battery Plate in the length dimensions.

Either way, we're talking about roughly 2" difference in length. This definitely accommodates the larger LCD Screens with the flip out one and the right-hand-side one. This extra 2" may account a little for the 3.1 lbs. difference, but I think the internals determine that more. Again, the B-Mount Battery Plate may have something to do with that as well because the UMP12K(OLPF) doesn't have that part of the weight. The UMPG2 with EF was lighter than the UMP12K(OLPF) at 5.07 lbs, but since the 12K was 5.62 lbs with the PL and is the same as the OLPF version I'd say that extra weight is the PL Mount.

Thus 3.1 lbs difference must be the extra internals for handling Wi-Fi and the Media Module and the higher data needed for 12K. This makes me conclude that some weight comes from the internals, some from the extra screen, and some from the added length. Either way...

Going with a UCineLT would possibly lose some of these things in favor of a more compact and lighter body. But I can't say for certainty that it would. A UCineLT would probably need to lose the XLR Ports along with the Wi-Fi Antennae, and maybe even shrink down by losing some of the front external buttons. This would maybe help get the size smaller than 7" in length. Reducing some of that and doing that could lessen the weight back to the 5 lbs range. That would maybe be a decent UCineLT.

But this is my best guesses. What do you guys think?

I am just afraid that B mount voltage of 24V means that this camera and sensor is very power hungry, which could limit its implementation in LT version. Hope I am wrong...

Cripple the sensor performance. It makes sense for an LT version anyway.
No need for the side screen too but that may not change much in power draw.

The added weight is an inevitable consequence of the larger physical envelope to house and contain the added electronics, and the rigidity required to maintain its structural integrity. It's not only heavier, but also dimensionally larger. A carbon fiber or titanium shell could reduce weight if not size, but at added expense.

Many people thought the Ursa Mini was already too big, too heavy. It was already a downsize of the original Ursa. Now with FF, you start to see some thinking behind the machinations with the Venice and its detachable sensor, and the Burano. The top performing Arri 35, returning to S35 format.

How much difference does any of this really make? Why do you need it? We've moved beyond needs. Everything is good enough for there to be something that works for the need. What we're expressing now are "wants."

Ditto Blaž Murn.

Presumably, it would be less expensive and more efficient to use as many as the same parts as possible, ie. the same Cine body but with features removed. Might be faster /easier that way when used as a B cam on set, being structurally identical to the A cam.

Power draw is 80-150W, depending on accessories, which means it is around 2.5x power hungry camera than UMPG2. There will be options to put on V-lock instead of B-mount, but that will limit the sensor.

Source:

So there are crippling options inside already in terms of using cheaper power, media (CFExpress bay), s35 crop mode, etc..

This probably means they could offer a cheaper s35 version. In theory.

As a whole package, it is not that expensive regarding what is included, you could just not use what you don't need, but for our production upgrading all the power, media, etc does not make financial sense to own this camera.

Because of course, if you buy this camera, you do not want to cripple what's available inside.

As Grant said, the Cine is what their dream camera would be like if they didn't look at cost/price, so they put everything in there possible.

Which in return means that there are things to leave out for a more cost efficient model.

For now I'm just stoked for that sensor, the future literally looks great for BM cameras.

We are very happy for BM and the new Cine line of cameras. Very exciting developments all around, and we truly hope for resounding success.

However, the lineup does not include a camera that suits our needs.

We would be first in line to buy a simplified version of the 12K Cine camera, designed for solo operators, location shooters, documentaries, etc. We would love to have access to the body size and shape, the new sensor, the accessories, lens mounts, internal NDs, etc.

In our case, we would not need WiFi with SRT streaming for remote client viewing, the assist station, or ethernet. Perhaps with simplified features, such a camera could be priced lower, and appeal to companies and users like us. We believe it would be very popular.

I would agree. I shoot docs and brand films. I do not need 12k, my clients do not need 12k. The Pyxis is not as useable as my 6K Pros (I don't understand only one XLR???) so hopefully, down the line, there will either be a 'mini cine' or a 'pro Pyxis' released. But at the moment neither of the new cameras work for me.

It's utterly weird that Blackmagic makes a camera for a certain segment then people complain that that camera isn't for them. They didn't make it for you.

I understand the disappointment of only one XLR port, just like the BMPCC4K. I wonder if this reflects a growing trend of people moving to more external recorders like the MixPre II series that support 32bit float audio which is ideal for sole operators or small crews. My camera audio is only for scratch audio now as four ports on the MixPre-6 II meets my current audio needs. I’m fortunate though that I receive a house audio feed from a very capable Allen+Heath soundboard for theatrical recordings and most of my music videos. When I’m providing all of my audio, I only have five XLR mics supporting two cameras.

It's utterly weird that Blackmagic makes a camera for a certain segment then people complain that that camera isn't for them. They didn't make it for you.

Mate, this is the BMD camera forum. Where people discuss their cameras.

I need a shirt size M. The shop only offers S, L, and XL. I like the S, L, and XL shirts, but they do not fit me. Should I not ask them to make size M for people like me?

Seems to me the shop would want to provide for their customers needs, and so would want to hear what their customers want.

It's utterly weird that Blackmagic makes a camera for a certain segment then people complain that that camera isn't for them. They didn't make it for you.

Who BMD thinks this camera is for:

Great interview. Nice job Nino!

I need a shirt size M. The shop only offers S, L, and XL. I like the S, L, and XL shirts, but they do not fit me. Should I not ask them to make size M for people like me?

Seems to me the shop would want to provide for their customers needs, and so would want to hear what their customers want.

Blackmagic finally made a camera for those who wear L and XL. Should you complain that a camera was made for those who wear those sizes? It's misguided. The regular 12K is size medium now. The Ursa Broadcast G2 exists, the Ursa 4.6K G2 exists.

None of those cameras have the new sensor. Have you seen the footage? It's a whole new level.

There won't be a Cine Mini anywhere soon, anyways, so just let us have some fun pondering over it.

None of those cameras have the new sensor. Have you seen the footage? It's a whole new level.

There won't be a Cine Mini anywhere soon, anyways, so just let us have some fun pondering over it.

None of the lower cameras have the 12K sensor either.

That's the point of this thread

That's the point of this thread

The thread is asking for the sensor of the camera just announced. The OG 12K sensor is a different sensor.

Screenshot (281) - Copy.png (282.91 KiB) Viewed 6416 times

B&H.

Screenshot (281) - Copy.png

B&H.

Yet, I think the 12K OLPF is still available for purchase. And, so is the UMPG2.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... o_12k.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _4_6k.html

Screenshot (281) - Copy.png

B&H.

That's the original and not the OLPF.

Apart from occasional dead horse beating, I find this thread most fruitful regarding the new 16 stops sensor, so here are my additional thoughts.

Our small indie-film-docu-mercial production could benefit from this additional dynamic range FF sensor.

What we own is already fantastic, I still think including new developments from BMD offer, at least for us to own the UMPG2 and P6KP is the best combo. Checking these three sample clips and playing with them made me relook at our test shots we always do before projects with our own cameras. And wow, they are not far, especially the UMPG2 and its fast sensor reacting to handheld. Stunning.

The problem with upgrading UMPG2 to UC12KFF is simply the price tag. You are stepping into a new ecosystem of power/media and larger file sizes which means even more archive space. The price for us would be quite above 20K€ for upgrading to FF/8K/+2 stops of DR(if there are?).

Well for us this is too much to be reasonable for a camera, that has 1 year of warranty support, which means that this investment should cover itself in a year. For 20K€ in a year we can rent the hell out of the best Arri cameras and glass plus lighting, so why bother anyway?

My point is that for small productions, which I presume are most of the BMD customer base, there is a cutoff price point of owning. Plus also GPDs of countries warry, maybe for US 25K$ is ultra cheap, but for us, it ain't.

Listening to BMD reps on YT NAB coverage I have an idea for the price, size and design of UC12K. They believe we have grown into that class. Well, at least we have not because here it's either no to small budgets or the highest budgets. There is no in-between in the EU at least for commercials and we do not strive for nonstop commercial work but still are crazy enough to think our cinema breakthrough is possible. And if you work at films you are out for 2-5 years, sometimes even more, so you are forgotten in commercial waters.

If we had grown that much, well then there are other brands we would go with to be frank. Because then we would also rent them out.

UMPG2 is a really nice camera and comes close to the best ones out there but still, it's affordable enough to own it and have it available 24/7 which is essential for our type of filmmaking.

UC12K potentially seems an upgrade worth some extra money. Ideally for us, it would be the same UMP body compatible with what we already own. If this potential "Ursa Mini Pro FF 12K" would cost up to 9K€ this might be a viable investment for us because we could just swap the bodies and job done.

But I can imagine there are many reasons for this new sensor in a bigger and heavier fiber-plastic body. Since its sensor is bigger I doubt the UMP ND filter system size could cover it. Also, the lack of mounting on the right side is probably because the body is injected fiber composite. To prevent people from going nuts at it bending by hand I assume BMD put this focus puller fixed screen which can be nice but all gaffers/1stACs I know of pull it from wireless monitoring follow focus. Even promotional photos on a staged set with this new camera show focus puller on such a system so this monitor and its features are a nice addition but I think mounting points would be more handy but that would require magnesium body and that would make this new camera even heavier.

So yea, is nice, the path that BMD is on with the new sensor is promising but the price class from 6K€(UMP12K) to UC12KFF is quite a jump for owning, therefore I believe there are two possible scenarios; either a price reduction or a new cheaper/smaller/crippled version comes for us normal people.

I know there is no competition for these features for his price, but for 25K€ you can buy used Alexa Mini from Arri. The whole system would cost more probably and is used etc.. but that's buying an f-ing Porsche.

Regarding 3 sample clips; much of the cinematography comes to light/film set/set design/costume so this shoot is really pleasing so I partially agree if you'd film the same scenes on iPhone and put them side by side on YT most of the people would not know to tell which were shot on which so a hands-on test is a must as always.

P.s.: Now some forum members here are welcome to attack me and my shared opinion, I really hope you feel better afterwards. I shared these since I've been waiting for an FTP upload to finish before I can start to work and invested my time here to give BMD my feedback on why I was hot and now I am cold regarding buying their new and I imagine excellent sensor tech.