Blackmagic Forum

The videos I have seen coming out of NAB do not ask about USB C.
There are 2 USB C plugs on the PYXIS 6K.

"USB-C, or USB Type-C, is a 24-pin connector (not a protocol) that supersedes previous USB connectors and can carry audio, video and other data, e.g., to drive multiple displays or to store a backup to an external drive. It can also provide and receive power, such as powering a laptop or a mobile phone."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C

Indeed, usbc is just a connector, there are several different hardware configs attatched to the same interface. It’s doubtful that any of the connections are TB3/4 so it’s likely 3.1 or 3.2. The VF may take some proprietary data format, rgb, yuv, or it could be the webcam interface. Hard to say.

Good Luck

I am trying to wrap my head around the BMD thinking on this.
We know that they build gear for people who do not have much cash.
They build a sub $3000. camera with no HDMI. Why?
They build a sub $3000. with one mini XLR, Why?

My thinking, the USB C can be anything you need it to be.

The iPhone can do this, why not a camera the size of a small shoe box?

Beam me up Scotty................

Well the folks over at Freefly are certainly able to achieve all the functionality over usb C coupled with their iPhone app. Live view, controls, media browsing - they didn’t mention nothing avout delivering power to the iPhone simultaneously.

Their app is discussed around about 8:30 to 9:30 in this video

Sure the phone is not a very professional solution, but BM does advertise pixys being able to shoot right out the box, and the iPhone implementation would make it even more so, before they eventually come out with the camera control capable usb c monitors of their own, which everybody would buy.

Leon Benzakein wrote:They build a sub $3000. with one mini XLR, Why?

:

One of the Nab interviews touched on this. They expect most users to have external recording. The other point was adding more would have meant a bigger camera.

I found the interview with President Dan May to be the most telling about the design process for the camera division. There are two cameras released: The Pyxis is designed to sell below $3,000 while including the extra expenses any new design incurs. They’ve considered much if not everything we are mentioning about the Pyxis’ limitations within the context of what they know to be the constraints of cost and physical space. We might well say now, “I’d be willing to pay another $1,000 if it included a fully articulating monitor similar to the URSA Cine and quality internal NDs.” But they know for the introductory model, it will receive greater acceptance for those who can live without those two additions at this time.

Do not underestimate the importance of the evolution of a particular product line, actually most of BMD’s product lines outside of Cintel. Case in point, look at the capabilities of the launch of the Pocket camera that could fit into your pocket. With that physical design goal met and truly massive adoption by shooters, the cost even went down dramatically over time. But the BMPCC HD sub mirrorless ~> BMCC6K full frame is a progression over time generally adding features and capabilities incrementally while incrementally growing their market appeal.

The Pyxis is incomplete and completely unsatisfactory as a higher-end product. In a way it’s a step back from the features of the latest Pocket iteration while at the same time introducing a new form factor that may target a new audience disenchanted with the pseudo DSLR form. But BMD is just getting started with Pyxis. I certainly don’t know what is coming and when it will arrive; it could be in a year but that will depend upon market acceptance today. The BMPCC took off like a rocket to power several generations of improvements at higher costs. If Pyxis takes off, it will follow that trajectory.

The second camera introduced is the URSA Cine a complete contradiction of the design philosophy discussed above. After a dozen years of cautiously staying the course, carefully disruptive, Grant Petty has unleashed a dragon of a camera that may as well breathe fire and scorch its adversaries. Various design components are an evolution of what has gone before, but the revolution is encapsulated in the entreaty to design a camera without thinking about the cost, just build the best camera you can today.

But don’t minimize the fact that this too will be improved over time if it takes off. The URSA has its share of detractors, it was said to be too heavy, it was ridiculed for having a 10” built-in fold out monitor, it assumed you had a small crew to operate it. It had it supporters too that pointed out that there were heavier cameras in use, that the 10” opened up the world to easier viewing and greater precision, and it could be used by a sole operator. But it didn’t take off. And it took 12 years for BMD to release its successor!

URSA Cine is both expensive and inexpensive depending upon where you look. I think some of us are in shock and that is completely understandable since no one expected a camera above $10,000, especially after the last interaction of the URSA Mini started at $10,000 and was significantly reduced later. But $15,000 has arrived.

And it’s inexpensive as you begin to break it down into the components: there’s a long list of achievements in this design. I likely can’t list them all because I don’t have the competency to do so. Here’s a short list:

Their propriety RGBW CFA with a second generation full-frame 12K sensor with 16 stops HDR in part due to larger 2.9 micron photosites. With a 17K stretch sensor already done, we saw it! Just wait, the sensor nobody asked for, nobody needs, nobody wants, nobody will buy, is coming in the next camera iteration. You know you could say the same for all those European cars that exceed 120 mph and $100,000 but are essentially just four wheels and a board.

Their 8 TB recording module included in the base configuration (with 16 TB coming later) using SSD technology that exceeds the performance of CFexpress which will be an optional module if buyers prefer to use their existing cards at the cost of reduced recording capabilities.

That fold-out, fully articulating 5” monitor that displays your shooting frame or rotates to show a status window if you prefer. That assistant side monitor that displays more than your shooting frame when no one has an assistant anymore, at least not an assistant that works beside you. Assistants are all working from home, not on your set, and controlling your camera remotely while scrolling their phones. Right.

There is a host of small features new to BMD, new functionality with USB-C connectors, new 24V support (or 12V if you want), new connectors (but no genlock), Ethernet, Lemo.

When we get over the sticker shock, this camera will find a place as will its future iterations.

Rick, This is not really the post to say this however I'll say that for me, and others I have talked with, it's not the price of the URSA Cine that's stopping me from getting it...it's the reliability and service options for a $15,000 camera. Historically that has been the issue with Blackmagic.

All I want to know is, can the USB C output a signal to HDMI?
Cos it does not make financial sense to have a $3,000.00 camera working with a $1,700.00 monitoring device.
Great, there is a SDI output, how many people in this camera price range own a monitor or eco system with SDI?

Complete agreement. That’s why there’s going to be a tightrope to walk the path between price of the camera versus changing the delivery and support ecosystem. Without falling off the tightrope. Too much price and BMD becomes another ARRI in terms of scarce product supply; too little support and growing of the customer base and BMD never emerges from the cocoon to take flight as a butterfly lifting an industry.

Leon Benzakein wrote:All I want to know is, can the USB C output a signal to HDMI?
Cos it does not make financial sense to have a $3,000.00 camera working with a $1,700.00 monitoring device.
Great, there is a SDI output, how many people in this camera price range own a monitor or eco system with SDI?

Tentatively raising my hand…

rick.lang wrote:Tentatively raising my hand…

My point exactly

ONE

out of the millions of hard working people who have read this post.

OK, I do. I actually have 4 SDI monitors I use for various set-ups. And also I'll take with a huge grain of salt that "millions of people have read this post" as well as ignore the fact that you just posted this.

jallen0 wrote:I actually have 4 SDI monitors

OK, that's TWO.

Leon Benzakein wrote:All I want to know is, can the USB C output a signal to HDMI?
Cos it does not make financial sense to have a $3,000.00 camera working with a $1,700.00 monitoring device.
Great, there is a SDI output, how many people in this camera price range own a monitor or eco system with SDI?

I have a Feelworld Lut7s for my Production 4K.

Monitors with SDI are cheap.

Leon Benzakein wrote:All I want to know is, can the USB C output a signal to HDMI?

Yes. Tilta’s Khronos for the iPhone 15 uses HDMI, via the phone’s USB-C port, to a monitor.

Kondor Blue doesn’t specify how, but its new iPhone 15 hub draws from the phone’s USB-C port and will feed a monitor.

I haven’t looked at the details for Atomos’s just-announced Ninja Phone. Newsshooter posted what appears to be a detailed discussion about the Ninja Phone on YouTube yesterday.

Ok, you super geniuses who are already invested in the SDI ecosystem.

The question does not apply to you.

"Great, there is a SDI output, how many people in this camera price range own a monitor or eco system with SDI?"

It applies to those who are invested in the HDMI world and own cameras costing under $3,000.00.

To make it clear this post is in reference to the USB C viewfinder output on the PYXIS 6K.

How is one supposed soar like an eagle when one is surrounded by turkeys?

Rick you can put your hand down now and go stand in the corridor.

Leon Benzakein wrote:It [the question] applies to those who are invested in the HDMI world and own cameras costing under $3,000.00.

See the post just above yours.

Getting HDMI out of a phone requires $15 and a Prime account. Going the other way, HDMI into a phone takes a little shim sham, there’s not an Amazon Basics cable for that.

Ultimately nobody knows what’s on the wire until BM chimes in or a few adventurers decide to start plugging things in.

Good Luck

Belkin, Kondor Blue and Tilta hubs are all drawing from the iPhone 15’s USB-C port to drive HDMI monitors.

robedge wrote:

Leon Benzakein wrote:All I want to know is, can the USB C output a signal to HDMI?

Yes. Tilta’s Khronos for the iPhone 15 uses HDMI, via the phone’s USB-C port, to a monitor.

Kondor Blue doesn’t specify how, but its new iPhone 15 hub draws from the phone’s USB-C port and will feed a monitor.

I haven’t looked at the details for Atomos’s just-announced Ninja Phone. Newsshooter posted what appears to be a detailed discussion about the Ninja Phone on YouTube yesterday.

Hi Rob

Thank you for the info on the iPhone.
I saw a video from NAB re the Atomos Ninja phone, I get the sense that it is similar to the Accsoon SeeMo

The EVF they also announced uses USB C.

Monitors that work off USB C aren't new. USB C to HDMI cables exist.

You know I think a hidden secret is the Video Assist. Not the current ones, but the new ones they haven’t released. I bet more than anything that a new Video Assist with Camera Control is coming.

That will likely be handled via USB-C as opposed to wireless like I’ve requested. Although, maybe there will also be a Wireless Video Assist model. But the wired Video Assist USB-C will be similar to the new Cine Viewfinder in terms of getting video and data via the USB-C. Meanwhile you’ll be able to use the touchscreen monitor to control settings on the camera and that will be transmitted via the USB-C.

I’m positive this will be coming. Enough so that I’ll wager my first born.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Leon Benzakein wrote:All I want to know is, can the USB C output a signal to HDMI?
Cos it does not make financial sense to have a $3,000.00 camera working with a $1,700.00 monitoring device.
Great, there is a SDI output, how many people in this camera price range own a monitor or eco system with SDI?

Very true but its a 3k camera that puts out an image way above its price point and offers ergonomics that higher priced cameras have. So I don't think that the price point really should stop people from adding to it in the end they will still come out winning.


Ricardo Marty

jallen0 wrote:Rick, This is not really the post to say this however I'll say that for me, and others I have talked with, it's not the price of the URSA Cine that's stopping me from getting it...it's the reliability and service options for a $15,000 camera. Historically that has been the issue with Blackmagic.

It isn't really a $15,000 camera. It is actually a $30,000 camera that is sold in halves and includes a spare in case of an issue.

rick.lang wrote:

Leon Benzakein wrote:All I want to know is, can the USB C output a signal to HDMI?
Cos it does not make financial sense to have a $3,000.00 camera working with a $1,700.00 monitoring device.
Great, there is a SDI output, how many people in this camera price range own a monitor or eco system with SDI?

Tentatively raising my hand…

The "video" standard over USB-C is DisplayPort, and yes, that is indeed what BMD is using. They have also confirmed that they are delivering power in a standard way. So other manufacturers can make cameras that could use the EVF, and other manufacturers could make displays that work with BMD cameras.

Devices that convert physical USB-C ports to HDMI ports are converting a DP signal to an HDMI signal.

What I have not yet heard BMD describe is the control protocol.

https://www.displayport.org/displayport-over-usb-c/

Leon Benzakein wrote:All I want to know is, can the USB C output a signal to HDMI?
Cos it does not make financial sense to have a $3,000.00 camera working with a $1,700.00 monitoring device.
Great, there is a SDI output, how many people in this camera price range own a monitor or eco system with SDI?

I have multiple displays and a wireless system that all support SDI. And except for the Teradek, they're not high priced items.

Moving to SDI for the "high" end - with its locking connectors and long runs - and USB-C (DisplayPort) for the "low" end (easy to source, cheap single cable) was a very smart move. HDMI has always been a bag of hurt on cameras (fragile, easily unplugged, short runs, etc.)

And, if you need to use the SDI out with HDMI devices, there are adapters for that.

joe12south wrote:HDMI has always been a bag of hurt on cameras (fragile, easily unplugged, short runs, etc.)

Do not get me wrong. I like the direction that this camera is going in and even the side monitor is not a problem.
I totally agree HDMI is a pain and a locking USB-C is great.
I am questioning if BMD is going the extra mile and using the USB-C technology to it's fullest potential.
There are 2 USB-C plugs. This camera would be way ahead of the pack if it were so.

e.g. will this work with a USB-C mic etc.?

Leon Benzakein wrote:

joe12south wrote:There are 2 USB-C plugs. This camera would be way ahead of the pack if it were so.

e.g. will this work with a USB-C mic etc.?

The info so far from NAB is spotty. One rep said the port on the back can only be used for recording. Another rep said that the front port sends DP and power. I've heard nothing one way or another on USB audio, though being able to accept input and power a USB mic would be a nice feature, indeed.

Those BMD guys at the show are truly amazing.
How they can keep going is admirable.

They must have a dummy in the back room that they beat with a cricket/baseball bat or hockey stick at the end of the day.

joe12south wrote:The "video" standard over USB-C is DisplayPort, and yes, that is indeed what BMD is using. They have also confirmed that they are delivering power in a standard way. So other manufacturers can make cameras that could use the EVF, and other manufacturers could make displays that work with BMD cameras.

Devices that convert physical USB-C ports to HDMI ports are converting a DP signal to an HDMI signal.

What I have not yet heard BMD describe is the control protocol.

https://www.displayport.org/displayport-over-usb-c/

"A" video standard over USB C is Display Port, UVC is another. The only small monitor that I'm aware of that takes USB C input is the Zato from Atomos and it's a UVC input not Alt Mode DP. If Blackmagic does use DP then control will likely come through the CEC channel as that's the, excuse me, one of the methods of camera control their cameras utilize.

Good Luck

Leon Benzakein wrote:"...It applies to those who are invested in the HDMI world and own cameras costing under $3,000.00. ..

I also have several monitors and a video transmission system with SDI inputs. But for those in a 'budget-friendly' HDMI-only ecosystem, isn't this solved by small, inexpensive converters? I always carry a few when I'm shooting... just in case.

Howard Roll wrote:

joe12south wrote:The "video" standard over USB-C is DisplayPort, and yes, that is indeed what BMD is using. They have also confirmed that they are delivering power in a standard way. So other manufacturers can make cameras that could use the EVF, and other manufacturers could make displays that work with BMD cameras.

Devices that convert physical USB-C ports to HDMI ports are converting a DP signal to an HDMI signal.

What I have not yet heard BMD describe is the control protocol.

https://www.displayport.org/displayport-over-usb-c/

"A" video standard over USB C is Display Port, UVC is another. The only small monitor that I'm aware of that takes USB C input is the Zato from Atomos and it's a UVC input not Alt Mode DP. If Blackmagic does use DP then control will likely come through the CEC channel as that's the, excuse me, one of the methods of camera control their cameras utilize.

Good Luck

Not to be too pedantic, but UVC isn't generally thought of as a video signal - it's more like a streaming protocol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_video_device_class
To grossly oversimplify, UVC what you use for a webcam.

HDMI over USB used to be a thing, but licensing became an issue last year. It was out of date, anyhow, only supporting HDMI 1.4 (8-bit, limited resolutions). DisplayPort is the de facto standard for a video signal over USB.

joe12south wrote:Not to be too pedantic, but UVC isn't generally thought of as a video signal

I guess the V in UVC stands for Vacation?

Incidentally several of BM's current cameras utilize this protocol.

UVC is also how the Komodo relays video to the control app.

Good Luck

Howard Roll wrote:UVC is also how the Komodo relays video to the control app.

Pretty much the definition of "streaming". Even though UVC technically supports uncompressed video, you'd be hard pressed to find it being used for anything other than highly compressed streaming.

I'm sure there is some oddball monitor that supports UVC somewhere, but in practical terms, a monitor with a USB-C input expects Alt-DP, and that is what BMD's USB-C port is outputting.

Another interesting (to me) question is whether the other USB-C input/output (not the one for a monitor) could be used to send audio to the camera from a digital audio interface. I would love to be able to strap my little Sonosax M2D2 onto the side plate that comes with the camera and record that audio with my footage.

Brad Hurley wrote:Another interesting (to me) question is whether the other USB-C input/output (not the one for a monitor) could be used to send audio to the camera from a digital audio interface. I would love to be able to strap my little Sonosax M2D2 onto the side plate that comes with the camera and record that audio with my footage.

Since there are complaints about only one XLR, I feel like BMD would have said something if that was currently supported.

The new Ursa Cine has a total of 4 USB ports, so it makes a lot of sense for it, too. USB audio support would be a very nice firmware update for Christmas!

If a device as small as a smart phone can use USB-C to carry audio, video, data and power in any direction, then why not a box the size of the Pyxis?

Set USB-C free!
Let it be the best that it can be!
Just Do it!

Bring down the wall!

Just say NO! (oops, wrong topic.)

Leon Benzakein wrote:If a device as small as a smart phone can use USB-C to carry audio, video, data and power in any direction, then why not a box the size of the Pyxis?

Set USB-C free!
Let it be the best that it can be!
Just Do it!

Bring down the wall!

Just say NO! (oops, wrong topic.)

There's always a finite amount of processing power. Our phones are essentially supercomputers from less than 2 decades ago. A typical camera doesn't have anywhere near that amount of "general" computational power, but MUXing an already digital audio stream isn't exactly heavy lifting, so we can be hopeful that should BMD have the will to implement it in software, the camera hardware could handle it.

timbutt2 wrote:You know I think a hidden secret is the Video Assist. Not the current ones, but the new ones they haven’t released. I bet more than anything that a new Video Assist with Camera Control is coming.

That will likely be handled via USB-C as opposed to wireless like I’ve requested. Although, maybe there will also be a Wireless Video Assist model. But the wired Video Assist USB-C will be similar to the new Cine Viewfinder in terms of getting video and data via the USB-C. Meanwhile you’ll be able to use the touchscreen monitor to control settings on the camera and that will be transmitted via the USB-C.

I’m positive this will be coming. Enough so that I’ll wager my first born.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

100% agree.
The price drop of current VA and the new cameras being available soon… they have to be right around the corner. I can’t imagine they would be backwards compatible with anything else besides the Pyxis and Cine. I can see them separating them as their own thing with camera control and stuff, but leave the current video assists to do the “record to BRAW/prores” feat.

I think Z-Cam really had the right idea utilizing a small control screen + including a 5" adjustable monitor with the Z-CAM E2 F6 Pro. BMD could have one-upped them (and RED) with their decision to use USB-C instead of a propriety connector.

Here's hoping someone, whether it be BMD, SmallHD, Portkeys, whomever, fills the gap soon.

Red already includes a USB-C port that can connect to a phone on some of its cameras, but it would be great to be able to use a Video Assist or similar over USB-C, provided that there's a locking mechanism involved to prevent accidental disconnects.

Rakesh Malik wrote:Red already includes a USB-C port that can connect to a phone on some of its cameras, but it would be great to be able to use a Video Assist or similar over USB-C, provided that there's a locking mechanism involved to prevent accidental disconnects.

Yeah, the new Video Assists should probably use the same USB-C Locking mechanism in the URSA Cine Viewfinder.

Million dollar question, what happens if one plugs an USB-C hub into the USB-C ports on the Pyxis 6K?

Is it like running with scissors?
Does it come with a warning label, not to do it?

Leon Benzakein wrote:Million dollar question, what happens if one plugs an USB-C hub into the USB-C ports on the Pyxis 6K?

Is it like running with scissors?
Does it come with a warning label, not to do it?

Just tried connecting a hub yesterday to a bmpcc 4k. I could simultaneously record to an ssd and have my phone working as a hot spot for camera to cloud functionality.

_celko wrote:Just tried connecting a hub yesterday to a bmpcc 4k. I could simultaneously record to an ssd and have my phone working as a hot spot for camera to cloud functionality.

Do you have a HDMI out on the hub?

We know from the USB-C on the Micro Studio camera 4K G2 that it has ethernet connectivity, control for the BMD zoom and focus as well as external SSD recording.

What else can these USB-C I/O do?

Leon Benzakein wrote:

_celko wrote:Just tried connecting a hub yesterday to a bmpcc 4k. I could simultaneously record to an ssd and have my phone working as a hot spot for camera to cloud functionality.

Do you have a HDMI out on the hub?

We know from the USB-C on the Micro Studio camera 4K G2 that it has ethernet connectivity, control for the BMD zoom and focus as well as external SSD recording.

What else can these USB-C I/O do?

Imagine it had 4k video out for six years now… but hidden in plain sight next to the 1080p hdmi on the bmpcc 4k. I mean somebody had to try this out before, but I will still give it a shot on monday.

The question of whether an HDMI monitor can be used with the USB-C on the PYXIS has been answered.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=209928

Good find zareone.

_celko wrote:Imagine it had 4k video out for six years now… but hidden in plain sight next to the 1080p hdmi on the bmpcc 4k. I mean somebody had to try this out before, but I will still give it a shot on monday.

Did you do it?

Leon Benzakein wrote:The question of whether an HDMI monitor can be used with the USB-C on the PYXIS has been answered.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=209928

Good find zareone.

Thanks Leon!

I wasn't aware of this thread. Otherwise would've just posted here...