Blackmagic Forum

Posted: **Fri May 10, 2024 7:38 pm**

Taking into account that BlackMagic has developed an APP to record with iPhones... and that the iPhone 15 Pro/Max has a 20GBPS USB-C port... they believe that it is possible that at some point via HDMI output, the Black Can Magic Monitor record BRAW? That would be fantastic.

In addition, BlackMagic has worked on the issue of HDMI output to monitors on iPhones, for the moment for viewing.

Posted: **Sun May 12, 2024 1:03 pm**

Over Docker wrote:Taking into account that BlackMagic has developed an APP to record with iPhones... and that the iPhone 15 Pro/Max has a 20GBPS USB-C port... they believe that it is possible that at some point via HDMI output, the Black Can Magic Monitor record BRAW? That would be fantastic.

In addition, BlackMagic has worked on the issue of HDMI output to monitors on iPhones, for the moment for viewing.

I'm not positive, but this may not be possible. Because the app probably uses Apple's SDK, it may not have access to the RAW camera data.

This is just a guess, I haven't looked at the SDK in a looooong time.

Posted: **Sun May 12, 2024 5:30 pm**

The SDK doesn’t allow for Braw encoding. Apple will have to pony up some cash if they want Braw encoding on the iPhone.

Good Luck

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2024 12:40 am**

I’d bet it’s not going to happen.
And then, who needs it? BM nailed the iPhone’s gamma and color pretty well in RCM.
I don’t see anything coming off those sensors in the iPhone that doesn’t fit into ProRes (or HEVC at high data rates).

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2024 12:35 pm**

Sorry, I think Mr. Grant Petty said BRAW was free and open source. Also, I'm not saying that the iPhone records braw internally, I'm asking if I could output braw externally and record it on a Black Magic monitor. I thought it was possible because BlackMagic has developed a super complete application for recording with the iPhone.

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2024 1:02 pm**

Over Docker wrote:Sorry, I think Mr. Grant Petty said BRAW was free and open source.

From their website:
-> Open Standard and Free to Download
Cross platform and license free!
Blackmagic RAW is the world’s only truly modern, high performance, professional RAW codec that is open, cross platform and free. The codec is supported via the free SDK on Mac OS, iOS, Windows and Linux systems. Best of all, there are no hidden licenses or ongoing fees. Blackmagic RAW has been designed to provide the industry with an open, elegant and standardized high quality image format that can be used across products and in customer workflows absolutely free!

So it's not open source, but there are no license fees. So that won't hinder Apple. But Apple has its own ProRes RAW codec already.

Over Docker wrote:Also, I'm not saying that the iPhone records braw internally, I'm asking if I could output braw externally and record it on a Black Magic monitor. I thought it was possible because BlackMagic has developed a super complete application for recording with the iPhone.

Apple would have to implement and enable support for outputting RAW over USB-C into HDMI with their iOS SDK plus give Blackmagic Design access to sensor profiling data - only then BMD would be able to support external BRAW recording.

I honestly doubt that Apple is going to do this. My guess is - if Apple would have been successful in court with invalidating RED's RAW recording patent, we would have already seen internal ProRes RAW recording on iPhones.

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2024 1:17 pm**

Well, in any case, if it is a problem of paying Red, they could make the option of paying available to those who want to use the RAW. Although of course Apple must first allow RAW. However, it doesn't seem like a very big problem to me... will there be a limitation in hardware performance? I doubt it.

It would be interesting to at least see Apple ProResRaw one day.

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2024 2:23 pm**

From a purely technical perspective likely all of the above are possible. I wouldn’t expect to see any movement until we’re on the other side of the raw standoff.

I don’t see Red selling to Nikon if Prores Raw is going into the iPhone 16 or 17.

I don’t see Apple paying to license internal Braw encoding with no Praw in Resolve.

Raw over HDMI would seem the most likely as that’s the route many mfrs have taken. Still I don’t see this as a solution for many without a phone phetish.

Good Luck

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2024 3:51 pm**

Over Docker wrote:Well, in any case, if it is a problem of paying Red, they could make the option of paying available to those who want to use the RAW.

That's not how this works.
Apple would have to make a patent license deal with RED, disclose their sales and pay per device to RED, regardless of how many users would really use that. That will never happen.
BMD has nothing to do with this and can't do anything about it.

Over Docker wrote:Although of course Apple must first allow RAW. However, it doesn't seem like a very big problem to me... will there be a limitation in hardware performance? I doubt it.

If you are not a hardware/software developer for Apple, you are in no position to judge the size of the problem. Users without any knowledge in developing almost always completely underestimate the time and effort it needs to implement features. Just because you think it isn't a big deal doesn't mean it really isn't.

In comparison think about your clients estimating the time it needs to edit a film. Quite likely they will tell you that it can be done fast and easily and takes not much of your time. But you know better.

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2024 7:17 pm**

Robert Niessner wrote:Apple would have to make a patent license deal with RED, disclose their sales and pay per device to RED, regardless of how many users would really use that.

Not necessarily, Atomos has or has had individual pay for play licenses for raw, h.264/h.265, and NDI. Apple "could" do the same but I don't see a ton of motivation as things are today. How many iPhone users want or need raw video, 1 in a thousand, one in five thousand? What is the development cost vs profit? Would the license be perpetual or would users need to re-up every time they got a new phone which for many is annually?

It's kind of a bummer that Nikon purchased Red. If Apple had purchased Red, the raw war would be over, or at the very least the situation would be a bit spicier. Nikon already has Nraw and Praw, Redraw doesn't bring much to the table (consumer side) for a cam that already has two capable raw codecs.

Good Luck

Posted: **Fri May 17, 2024 9:19 pm**

Since .Braw is not pure RAW either, can ProRes 422LT and ProRes 4444 be similar to BRAW 12:1 and 3:1 respectively?

I don't know which will be easier to edit in Davinci Resolve, I guess the Prores 422 LT over the BRAW 12:1.

However, I think BRAW 3:1 is lighter than PRORES 4444.

What I do know is that iPhone is capable of eliminating a lot of noise in compression, in that sense it is similar or better than braw.

Then I think that perhaps it is not so necessary to prores raw or braw.

Anyway, DR, at least in Windows I know that it doesn't support ProResRAW. and an internal ProRes is better than carrying a blackmagic monitor upstairs.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2024 4:36 am**

An iPhone can't do ProRes 4444, only up to 422 HQ. BM obviously needed to take the option out after the first version.
BRAW is impressively easy to decode, and very efficient too, since it's using both CPU and GPU (at least on a Mac).
But, of course, a Mac with ProRes hardware in the M3 models is faster with that, for example when transcoding.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2024 10:42 am**

Uli Plank wrote:BRAW is impressively easy to decode, and very efficient too, since it's using both CPU and GPU (at least on a Mac).
But, of course, a Mac with ProRes hardware in the M3 models is faster with that, for example when transcoding.

Braw is the same on PC and can be decoded either using CPU or/and GPU. Prores is extremely light on both PC and Mac since it was designed as a post and mastering intraframe codec similar to DNxHD/R.

On the iPhone, at least with the BMD app, all forms of H.265 are 4:2:0, with rec.709 (and P3) being 8 bit and rec.2020 or Apple Log being 10 bit (other apps have more control). Whereas all forms of Prores are 10 bit 4:2:2. There is not much discernible difference between Prores 422 HQ and 422 LT for the iPhone; and the latter is better, especially if using rec.709, than shooting on H.265 rec.709 8bit, with the only disadvantage being space. But I find 422 LT to offer a good balance between internal space and quality. There would be little point or gain in having Braw.

While Apple Log workflow seems to be well set, for the 15 pros; shooting on earlier iPhones, such as my 14 pro Max, in rec. 2020 is quite cumbersome, in terms of finding the correct transforms. It took me quite a bit of digging in both Avid and Resolve; and best avoided in the BMD app IMV. I use rec.709 422 LT, for that reason now, on this phone.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2024 11:35 am**

Well, an iPhone can definitely shoot H.265 in 10 bit 4:2:2, even with a solid data rate (set to half the max rate here):

: Bildschirmfoto 2024-05-18 um 18.33.01.png (113.58 KiB) Viewed 654 times

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2024 11:52 am**

Steve Fishwick wrote:On the iPhone, at least with the BMD app, all forms of H.265 are 4:2:0, with rec.709 (and P3) being 8 bit and rec.2020 or Apple Log being 10 bit (other apps have more control).

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2024 2:22 pm**

I didn't know that BlackMagic finally eliminated the "ProRes 4444"... I don't know why they did it, there is a review on a page called CINE D or something like that, which proves how the iPhone eliminated noise even using that format, which for e It's very amazing, we are talking about a mobile device.

However, for most cases it is true that ProRes 422 LT works very well, it is a good balance between space and quality, and the best of all is that it is super light when doing post-production, I love that.

Most cameras need an external monitor to record in ProRes like Sonys and Lumix.

However, the Lumix S5 II X can record internally...
The big difference would be that the iPhone manages to do a very good job of eliminating noise in compression, the "atoms" that I tried did not have the ability to do that.

Even with the blackmagic APP one can view the luts... it's a damn mobile device.

I suppose there are other applications that have more functions, but I have used blacmagic cameras for a long time, and the app is very similar, very intuitive for someone who knows blacmagic. Since I use Davinci Resolve, it is much more reliable for me to use the blackmagic app, and it is free.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2024 2:37 pm**

Nothing wrong with using ProRes LT and the BM Camera app.
BTW, I doubt that the iPhone ever shot 4444 reliably, that's just too much. I'm sure BM had to take it out because it was not working well.

Over Docker wrote:The big difference would be that the iPhone manages to do a very good job of eliminating noise in compression, the "atoms" that I tried did not have the ability to do that.

Don't celebrate its NR big time, it's killing a lot of detail. Not Apple's fault, that sensor is still tiny.
I can show you the same night shot from the iPhone and a Sony A7IV, and they are worlds apart – but only in this respect.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2024 3:24 pm**

Uli Plank wrote:Nothing wrong with using ProRes LT and the BM Camera app.
BTW, I doubt that the iPhone ever shot 4444 reliably, that's just too much. I'm sure BM had to take it out because it was not working well.

Over Docker wrote:The big difference would be that the iPhone manages to do a very good job of eliminating noise in compression, the "atoms" that I tried did not have the ability to do that.
Don't celebrate its NR big time, it's killing a lot of detail. Not Apple's fault, that sensor is still tiny.
I can show you the same night shot from the iPhone and a Sony A7IV, and they are worlds apart – but only in this respect.

I understand that by eliminating details, since you say it is a small sensor, you cannot ask it to compete with a full frame... but comparing dollar for dollar, you are getting a very good image, which in many cases can be useful. Pretty good even in low light.

If you need more light, to use a lower iso, you can also artificially add more light to the shot depending on what you want to do.

The A7IV's roller shutter is sometimes horrible, here the iPhone just rolls over it...

I mean, in head-to-head situations, the iPhone can also hold its own against even an A7IV, it's surprising.

I'm not saying the iPhone is better than the A7IV, but if you use a kit lens... for half the price and less, the iPhone is just amazing. These years ago it was perhaps unimaginable and transgressive.

Posted: **Sun May 19, 2024 8:24 am**

Absolutely, it's very impressive how low the RS is compared to most smartphones I've ever used.
And compared to most hybrid cameras.

But low-light? Both under the same conditions, the Sony even had the disadvantage of a slower lens, a zoom, to get the same 120mm.
This is out of the iPhone (just a small part of the frame):
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nn7krg4j ... cdo1c&dl=0

And this from the A7IV:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nn7krg4j ... cdo1c&dl=0

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