Blackmagic Forum

Hi, I'm new to cinematography and was interested in buying the pocket cinema 4k camera for recording drums in front of a green screen. I want to get input from experienced users as to whether this will be the best camera for the job.

I'm by myself so will the lack of autofocus and image stabilization be a big deal if I'm using the camera on a tripod with no movement? Would I just manually focus on the drumset and be good to go when I start playing?

I read that for green screen footage you want 4:2:2 subsampling for best results. Does this camera have that available? I plan on using Braw to shoot so will that be even better for getting a good result when blending green screen footage with a cgi environment? Like I said I'm new to all of this so correct me if i'm asking the wrong questions.

What lens would you recommend I start out with for this type of footage and why? I would like to keep the lens under 500 dollars if possible.

Are there any accessories that I absolutely need other than an SD card, tripod, and lighting?

Lastly, if you have experience with other brands of cameras in a similar price range would you still recommend this as the best camera for the footage I am shooting?

Any tips you have are greatly appreciated as well. Thanks!

What is this footage going to be used for/what’s the end product? Some info on how you plan to record sound would also be helpful.

The footage is going to be used for a combination of social media reels/advertisements, YouTube drum playthroughs, and music videos.

Right now I’m using an electric drum set run directly to my computer for audio so I’m set as far as that goes. It will replace any audio picked up by the camera.

The end goal is to put myself playing my drums in different environments and have it look realistic.

The Pocket 4k should do well for this - as will many other cameras. If you want to film yourself in a wide shot on the drum set, manual focus will work fine.

With drums and green screen your biggest enemy is motion blur. Even at higher frame rates your sticks will move too fast to be sharp and that will make keying difficult. Try to keep your sticks out of the green

And of course: if your goal is to have it "look realistic" adjust your lightning. Drums on sunset beach and drums in a cave look different

If you haven't already done this, do Lesson 5 of the The Visual Effects Guide to
DaVinci Resolve from the Blackmagic website on greenscreen work. Do this before buying anything else. This will give you the background to avoid many mistakes.

Johannes

jonathan0226 wrote:Hi, I'm new to cinematography...

I'm by myself so will the lack of autofocus and image stabilization be a big deal if I'm using the camera on a tripod with no movement? Would I just manually focus on the drumset and be good to go when I start playing?

It seems to me that you should decide what you want your videos to look like and choose a camera accordingly, not the other way around. In general, video implies camera movement. Are you going to be happy with a film of a drummer that’s completely static?

Johannes Hoffmann - Thanks for the info! I'll check out that course.

robedge - For now, I'm going to shoot multiple takes at different angles and add some keyframe movement and different effects in post. I'm mainly trying to decide if this is going to be the best camera for this or would it be better to go with something like the sony FX30 for a little more or the Sony Ev-10 Mark 2 when it comes out.

jonathan0226 wrote:For now, I'm going to shoot multiple takes at different angles and add some keyframe movement and different effects in post.

In other words, you’re going to create a lot of unnecessary work for yourself. There’s something to be said for just getting it right in camera.

Lol pretty much.

What would you recommend? I don't have the budget for multiple cameras or hire someone to record my videos.

jonathan0226 wrote:
What would you recommend?

Given that this is for YouTube and other social media, a smartphone, which among other things will give you a few different focal lengths, or one of the many traditional cameras that have image stabilisation and autofocus.

Awesome, thanks for your recommendation.

I wish "chrisso" were still participating in these forums; he's a drummer (I think he played with Dire Straits on a few of their tours if I remember correctly) and was using a Pocket 4K. If anyone could provide some additional drum-specific advice, he could.

jonathan0226 wrote:will the lack of autofocus and image stabilization be a big deal

Yes, it will. It'll make your videos better than 90% of the videos on YouTube.

Go for it!

jonathan0226 wrote:Would I just manually focus on the drumset

No. Manually focus on the drummer.

Either someone else focuses on you, or you focus on someone sitting in your seat.

jonathan0226 wrote:What lens would you recommend I start out with

I just recently fell in love with this one. They make a few focal lengths.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... inema.html

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Howard Roll wrote:

jonathan0226 wrote:For now, I'm going to shoot multiple takes at different angles and add some keyframe movement and different effects in post.

Sounds good to me. I recently did this for a drummer in a band I work for. If you don't already, playing to a click will save you some heartache in post.

I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t use a click track, but it doesn’t actually matter. You may have been recording a live performance, but as I understand it he’s using virtual, sampled drums. In his DAW, he can place the drum hits wherever he wants:

jonathan0226 wrote:
Right now I’m using an electric drum set run directly to my computer for audio so I’m set as far as that goes. It will replace any audio picked up by the camera.

The end goal is to put myself playing my drums in different environments and have it look realistic.

Howard Roll wrote:

robedge wrote:

jonathan0226 wrote:
What would you recommend?

Given that this is for YouTube and other social media, a smartphone, which among other things will give you a few different focal lengths, or one of the many traditional cameras that have image stabilisation and autofocus.

I’d think the vfrs of a smartphone would be the dealbreaker in trying to sync multiple takes.

Tests on the iPhone 15 Pro and Pro Max suggest that this shouldn’t be a problem. In addition to tests, there are lots of examples on YouTube showing that recent smartphones can maintain sync for long periods.

We’re talking about someone with no video experience who’s making videos for social media. If he has a recent smartphone, or access to one, he should certainly try it. He’d learn some things about video and what he wants to do, and it would save a lot of money and time. Or just get an inexpensive, fully functioned, regular camera.

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Jim Simon wrote:

jonathan0226 wrote:will the lack of autofocus and image stabilization be a big deal

Yes, it will. It'll make your videos better than 90% of the videos on YouTube.

Go for it!

I realise that you’re being an enthusiastic proponent of Blackmagic cameras, but I think it’s worth noting that a claim that using a manual focus camera with no stabilisation will make your videos better than 90% of the videos on YouTube is untrue.

I use a 1956 Leica M3 that’s so manual it doesn’t even use a battery, but that camera doesn’t automatically make my photographs better than photos made with more modern cameras.

I’m now seeing YouTube videos made with a smartphone that are more accomplished than much of what I see made with a manual Blackmagic camera

What’s the old line about content quality and gear?

Howard Roll wrote:one can purchase ~2-2.5 bmpcc 4Ks for the price of a loaded iPhone 15 pro max.

No you can’t. The current price for a BMPCC 4K is US$1300. That’s without a single lens, without batteries, without a battery charger and without storage for footage.

A fully loaded iPhone 15 Pro Max, with 1TB of storage, is $1600. Plus you get a phone, access to the internet, messaging, a stills and video camera with several lenses, an audio recorder, apps for work and play, a music and video player, etc, etc.

You aren’t suggesting that someone might buy a Blackmagic 4K instead of buying a phone, are you?

Howard, tell us the real cost of setting up a BMPCC 4K if, like Jonathan, you don’t have any video camera gear. Indeed, if he’s like a lot of people and has abandoned stills cameras, he may not have any camera gear at all.

In reality, one can buy two 512GB iPhone 15 Pro Maxes for what it can cost, being cautious with one’s money, to buy and set up a single BMPCC 4K. There’s no shortage of Blackmagic 4K owners who discovered that buying the camera is just the beginning

Comparatively speaking, setting up a smartphone to shoot video is dirt cheap.

Love that this thread blew up a little and there’s some different opinions and recommendations. I’m still debating building a pocket 4k rig cuz I would like to eventually do more than just drum shots. Another thing that attracted me to it was that it comes with resolve studio. I want to buy that anyways and the fact that it’s free with the camera is a bonus.

I’ve been doing a lot of research and seen many recommendations from going with the Sony ev-10 to the fx30 or starting with a Panasonic gh5 to learn. The thing is the gh5 body by itself is around 300 to 400 more than the black magic. I know there’s a steep learning curve with the pocket 4k and that you need to buy more than just the camera and the lense but I’m willing to take the time to get there.

I did download the Blackmagic camera app for my phone which opened up some nice features and gave me some info that I had not seen before.

I hope this thread keeps going with recommendations and tips for those who plan to record music related content.

If you’re planning to do greenscreen then the BRAW codec is far better than what you can get from the other options you’re considering.

Simply because it’s 12bit.

A lot of it also depends on how well you light and shoot the greenscreen too, but the 12bit files will be an advantage. This is before you get into talks on 422 etc. 12bit BRAW kind of trumps all that.

I wouldn’t worry too much about doing camera movement.

If you’re shooting just yourself for this kind of content, the visual window dressing of nice shots and lighting etc are secondary to making something that’s engaging at a personal or genuine level.

My infant daughters favourite content is Ms Rachel and if you look at her channel you will see some of the most egregious blue screen, white balance and colour correction work you’ll ever see but she has millions of subscribers.

No one *really* cares about that kind of technical detail for this type of content. Think about how to make the most engaging and personable content. Technicalities count for less.

As mentioned I would be concerned about using a phone where the frame rate might vary beyond your control. That will certainly cause issues for you syncing multiple clips. Maybe avoid that for actual drumming content.

You might also want to consider some non. LED lighting or film style LED that have a higher refresh rate.

In a freeze frame less expensive LED lighting will flash multiple times within your sync cycle and a fast moving object like your drum stick can appear five or six times in the one frame.

A lower rolling shutter integration time too can help and if think you want to get into the weeds on that we can discuss.

JB

John Brawley wrote:As mentioned I would be concerned about using a phone where the frame rate might vary beyond your control. That will certainly cause issues for you syncing multiple clips. Maybe avoid that for actual drumming content.

Forum participant Uli Plank has done tests showing sync for very long periods. His results are easy to find. He has posted them several times on this forum. The practical evidence is now seen daily on YouTube, TikTok and Instagram. Large numbers of people are using iPhones to make social media videos. This includes vloggers who sometimes talk on screen, facing the camera, for long periods. YouTube examples, known to have been shot with an iPhone 15 Pro or Pro Max, have been posted here. Nine months after the introduction of the iPhone 15, there’d be dozens of YouTube videos (probably a lot more) if there was a sync problem. There aren’t. I haven’t seen even one.

It doesn’t make any sense to spend a large amount of money buying a traditional camera because of a hypothetical problem when one can easily test whether there’s an actual problem. This ain’t rocket science. If there isn’t a sync issue for the use case, great. If there is, buy a traditional camera.

I should note that I’m speaking only of the smartphone that I use and that has been discussed in this forum, namely the iPhone 15 Pro/Pro Max.

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Howard Roll wrote:

robedge wrote:No you can’t. The current price for a BMPCC 4K is US$1300. That’s without a single lens, without batteries, without a battery charger and without storage for footage.

Sure, not new, but you can pick them up used all day long between 600 and 800 dollars.

Got it. You just forgot to mention that part.

So the validity of your calculation requires a second-hand Blackmagic 4K but a new 1TB iPhone 15 Pro Max

Sorry if my rhetorical question wasn’t clear. For most people a phone, which includes a still and video camera, is a necessity, and a Blackmagic or other traditional camera isn’t. This is why making traditional cameras is now a niche business.

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The BMPCC 4K has the advantages mentioned by John, plus you can find lenses second-hand and those will give you flexibility.
OTOH, if you place an iPhone on sticks it’ll hold sync. Issues only show with stabilization activated. Oh, and the biggest advantage of the 15 are not the cameras, but the USB-C.

Uli Plank wrote:the biggest advantage of the 15...

I have both a 256GB iPhone 15 Pro Max and a BMPCC 4K. Starting from scratch, it is far less expensive to purchase and set up a Pro or Pro Max than a 4K. If somebody seriously questions this, I’ll be happy to explain why. Everything for the traditional camera is more expensive. Here’s one simple example. Last week, I purchased a DJI Ronin RS gimbal for the phone. The RS Mini, which is sufficient for the phone, costs US$270. A BMPCC 4K, depending on how it’s outfitted, would require the standard RS 4 or RS 4 Pro, which cost $540 and $870 respectively. The Mini is not only significantly less expensive, it’s also significantly lighter and more compact.

The phone gets you a necessity that is highly versatile and includes both a stills and video camera with three core lenses. The BMPCC 4K gets you a one-trick pony, or at least it does once you’ve also purchased at least one lens for it and gear to address the fact that it has no stabilisation.

Hit up relatives or friends for loan of an iPad and some iPhones (they needn’t be current), and one can now shoot with up to four iPhones at once, from different angles, with the iPad functioning as a central controller. You’ve now got the equivalent of four traditional cameras. Highly regarded, popular tech expert Dave Lee (Dave2D, 3.7 million subscribers) says that he intends to try this for the production of his YouTube videos. Yes, Lee's talking about abandoning his traditional cameras for iPhones.

The phone is significantly lighter and fits in one’s shirt pocket. Last week a forum participant shared iPhone footage from a shoot that he was on for UK television. He said that his conclusion from the shoot is that a phone is “liberating”.

The mere fact that someone on this forum can now recommend a smartphone without being summarily dismissed, if not pilloried, is an indication that we’re in a period of change It seems to me that people who want to recommend a dedicated “cinema camera” for social media, especially to a complete beginner, have an obligation to explain why.

What kind of change? Maybe this:

robedge wrote:a claim that using a manual focus camera with no stabilisation will make your videos better than 90% of the videos on YouTube is untrue.

Weeeellll...I'll agree to "exaggeration".

I was just thinking about all the focus-hunting I see from folks using Auto Focus. Very distracting. I know you can disable Auto Focus on cameras that have it. But with the P4K, you can't even turn it ON, because it doesn't exist.

And that's a good thing.

Just because you could write a novel on a phone doesn’t mean you should.

Greenscreen was one of the OPs priority.

BRAW is a great reason to not use an iPhone.

Low cost Interchangeable lenses that can be used with other cameras.

Larger sensor size for greenscreen isolation from background.

An eco system that the op can grow into that isn’t already topped out.

JB

I’m just going to address the point you chose to lead with.

John Brawley wrote:Just because you could write a novel on a phone doesn’t mean you should.

We’re talking about videos for YouTube, TikTok and Instagram.

But since you apparently think that making social media videos and writing novels are analogous, one can write anything on a phone: e-mails, internet posts, presentations, poetry, short stories. Why not a novel, or indeed a film treatment or script?

We’re talking about writing, not stenography. Graham Greene and Earnest Hemingway targeted 500 words per day. Tom Wolfe was happy with 135. Stephen King recommends 1,000.

Oh look, a concrete example ready to hand...

Fiona Mozley wrote her novel Elmet on her phone on her commute. She was shortlisted for one of the world’s most prestigious literary awards, the Booker Prize, and won the Somerset Maugham Award. Elmet has since been translated into French, German and Italian:

London Evening Standard
Man Booker Prize shortlist 2017: Londoner who wrote debut novel on her phone competes against five other authors
https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/book ... 33671.html

But like I said, we’re talking about making videos for YouTube, TikTok and Instagram.

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Howard Roll wrote:This is my basic setup for shooting drums, keys, et al.

Howard,

Which camera is that, and which Meika 12mm lens? It appears that Meike makes more than one 12mm. 35mm equivalent?

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robedge wrote:
But like I said, we’re talking about making videos for YouTube, TikTok and Instagram.

Just because you CAN doesn’t mean you SHOULD. The other five novels were not written with an iPhone and presumably one of those you know…won and so was objectively better than what was written on an iPhone ?

We can go all day fella. You’re missing the point.

JB

John Brawley wrote:
We can go all day fella. You’re missing the point.

Maybe you could try a substantive response next time

You know, it isn’t my fault that a novel that was shortlisted for the Booker Prize was written on a phone, or that Graham Greene and Earnest Hemingway had a target of 500 words a day, or that Tom Wolfe was happy with 135. I didn’t even mention Gustav Flaubert’s writing pace. You’re now asserting that Fiona Mozley shouldn’t have written her Booker short-listed novel on her phone during her commute. Who are you to say that?

robedge wrote:

John Brawley wrote:
We can go all day fella. You’re missing the point.

Maybe you could try a substantive response next time

As I understand it, Blackmagic pays you.

They don’t. I’m not a spokesman for Blackmagic. That’s why I can state whatever my actual opinion is Rob, hard as that may be for you to comprehend.

I’m not telling you what to do. I’m just stating an opinion. My opinion. Just the same as yours.

And you’re still missing the point, You can use a phone. I’m not convinced it’s the best and I gave substantial reasons why which you’re conveniently ignoring so you can throw some shade at me.

You make it personal. I’m only addressing the actual issues. You’re the one attacking the poster, not the post.

Nice work.

JB

John Brawley wrote:

robedge wrote:

John Brawley wrote:
We can go all day fella. You’re missing the point.

Maybe you could try a substantive response next time

As I understand it, Blackmagic pays you.

They don’t. I’m not a spokesman for Blackmagic. That’s why I can state whatever my actual opinion is Rob, hard as that may be for you to comprehend.

I’m not telling you what to do. I’m just stating an opinion. My opinion. Just the same as yours.

JB

Thanks for clarifying your current business relationship with Blackmagic. I’ve deleted the reference. I just couldn’t square what you’re saying in this thread with Blackmagic’s decision to support smartphone cinematography.

There is nothing personal about our exchanges. I didn’t claim that using an iPhone to make social media videos is akin using a phone to write a novel. Unsurprisingly, you didn’t like the response. Same for our exchange about synchronisation.

You leave the impression that you’re opposed to using a phone for anything beyond home movies. If that’s your position, just say so. It would save a lot of time. If you’re going to assert that using a phone to make social media videos is analogous to using a phone to write a novel, and that one obviously shouldn’t use a phone to write fiction, you’re inviting a response, and doubling down isn’t going to make what you’re saying credible.

Nor does it help to raise a hypothetical synchronisation issue as a deal breaker that isn’t based on fact and that, in any event, can be easily tested. For someone who’s familiar with the discussions and tests on the issue on this very forum, and with what YouTube objectively shows, it’s a bit surprising to see you talk like you know nothing about the analysis that’s already been done on this.

jonathan0226 wrote:Hi, I'm new to cinematography and was interested in buying the pocket cinema 4k camera for recording drums in front of a green screen.

First sentence of the OP mentioned green screen.

This is the biggest reason to not use a phone.

robedge wrote: it’s a bit surprising to see you talk like you know nothing about the analysis that’s already been done on this.

I guess I don't know anything Rob. I know nothing at all....

Like the fact that Apple controls what the frame rate of the camera is in the phone, not Blackmagic's app.

Gee what's that, is that other threads on this forum about people having phone sync issues with other phones too? Golly. Phones having sync issues because the sensors aren't accessible at a fundamental level to the app developer to absolutely control frame rate....

Your own testing is relying on another posters data point of testing? Cool.

You show that you don't even comprehend how the issue is so critical for a percussionist intercutting between different cameras vs someone on this forum who tested it doing a long take on one camera with stabilising off. I don't think you even understand the nuance of the difference in those use case scenarios because you keep referring to someone elses long take with one camera test.

Instead I'm sure you can just respond with more more generic what have you get against phones vitriol.

And greenscreen Rob. He wants to do it against greensceen.


JB

If you want to move an iPhone handheld, you need to use a gimbal. Rob has recommendations in his thread. Keep any in-phone stabilizers off, or they kill sync.

But I second what John hints at: chromakey!
It’s considerably more difficult with phone footage if you have any demands regarding quality. We have tried and didn’t like it compared to BRAW. Not that it matters much on YT…
Another point against phones is control of motion blur, which needs fiddling with NDs. And you'll want to keep the green screen out of focus, or you'll need to keep it very clean. And, no, the 'portrait' mode won't help much. That fake background blur is remarkably good in photography, but not too convincing in motion.

John, there are already two responses in this thread to your comment on synchronisation. No need to repeat them:

Mine:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=203741&sid=df55a52c4b01515b1362f966389036e6#p1058312

Uli Plank: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=203741#p1058386

My post includes the statement that this can easily be tested further.

I’m well aware of the new thread that you refer to, being a participant. It’s about a Pixel 7, not an iPhone 15 Pro Max. I see that you’ve chosen to ignore the distinction, which is specifically drawn in the thread.

John Brawley wrote:
You show that you don't even comprehend how the issue is so critical for a percussionist...

Charming. You’re talking to the wrong guy Why do you think I knew how he was doing this musically when others didn’t?

So what your argument comes down to is an assertion that anybody who wants to use green screen in social media videos should buy a Blackmagic/BRAW camera. Why? Just look at YouTube and TikTok videos. The inferiority of green screen footage from other cameras and codecs will jump out at you.

Well, I guess that’s one way to sell a camera. We can just forget about other considerations, or that on social media your assertion just might be a stretch. Uli: "Not that it matters much on YT…"

Of course, according to you nobody should make social media videos with a smartphone and the Blackmagic Camera app.

OK, you can have your last word and I'll shut up, just like in your other thread.
Just one remark: I don't sell cameras.

Uli Plank wrote:OK, you can have your last word...

Uli, read the start of my post. I wasn’t even addressing you.

Jonathan,

With one caveat, I think that you have most of the information you need to make a decision. Nobody has talked about the other cameras that you mentioned. I suggest that you do some research on them elsewhere than on this forum.

As the owner of both a BMPCC 4K and an iPhone, I think that both can get the job done. The choice comes down to your personal finances, how you want to interact with a video camera, and future plans. If you’re inclined toward the BMPCC 4K, it is very important that you cost out everything that you’ll need before you make a final decision to purchase one. Some people buy that camera, attracted by the price, and don’t realise, until after the purchase, what they’re in for financially. That isn’t a reason not to buy one. It’s a reason to go in with your eyes open financially.

Howard Roll posted a photo of his Blackmagic Micro Studio G2 with a Meike lens. As I understand it, it’s the same sensor as the one in the BMPCC 4K. It does not come with a monitor. However, given your immediate use case, it may be worth investigating.

Re Apple: As you may know, Apple has a 14 day, no questions asked, return policy. Gives you two weeks to decide whether the phone will meet your expectations. I don’t know if Apple is currently selling refurbished iPhone 15 Pros. If you have a problem with an Apple phone that’s under warranty/Apple Care, Apple will deal with the problem very quickly.

Re Blackmagic: If you purchase a Blackmagic camera, I suggest that you buy from a retailer that offers generous returns. B&H does even on second-hand purchases, if you choose to go that route.

If you haven’t already, I’d like to suggest that you look at some videos that have been shot with an iPhone 15 Pro/Pro Max and make your own assessment. Apple shot its last three events, including its June WWDC, on the phone. There are also two short fictional films on YouTube: Little Garlic , made in conjunction with Chinese New Year, and the Japanese manga Midnight. Both have English subtitles. Realise that Little Garlic and Midnight were made by highly skilled professionals. In the current YouTube style, there are a number of popular videos, such as Joey Helms’s short portrait of Chicago.

This is Little Garlic:



Midnight:



Joey Helms’s video. As a YouTuber, Helms is a little unusual. He works for Google advising YouTube advertisers. His video on how he edited this is worth watching:

Thank you all for the great info, recommendations, and warnings.

I did decide to get the pocket cinema 4k as I would like to do more with it than just green screen work eventually and want room to grow as I get better at videography/cinematography, vfx, colorgrading, etc.

Thanks to all your posts I did go into it with eyes open. I'm about 2k invested without the lens.

I'm getting overwhelmed trying to decide a lens but i'll start a new thread listing my current and future plans with the camera since it's a different subject.

Thanks again!

jonathan0226 wrote:I did decide to get the pocket cinema 4k as I would like to do more with it than just green screen work eventually and want room to grow as I get better at videography/cinematography, vfx, colorgrading, etc.

Congratulations on your new camera!

Thank you!