NAB 2014 bmcc update

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joechiazza

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Mar 28, 2014 9:58 pm

I've never had a firmware update brick anything ever on any device unless I messed something up.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Mar 28, 2014 10:00 pm

rma a smaller % of total units sold vs a larger number

obviously no company would sabotage their products, that isnt what I was gettng at in any way.

Glitches happen, bad code sometimes slips though.. perhaps the update does not have the intended affect due to hardware issues, etc..

thats all I was saying
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AdrianSierkowski

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Mar 28, 2014 10:03 pm

I've had firmware brick an epic once. But even then, out of warrenty, it was replaced-- also it was a rental so lord only knows what had happened to it.
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joechiazza

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Mar 28, 2014 10:08 pm

It's usually like the power goes out or there's some sort of power issue that happens. Could still be the cameras fault I guess.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSun Mar 30, 2014 6:59 pm

Kholi wrote:but the Gh4's putting out a 2010 image.



2010 image my derrière..

Downloaded the 4k version, and watched on a uhd panel...

(and this is INTERNAL to sd card... the uncompressed 10 bit is gonna be bananas! ! !)
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joechiazza

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 4:17 pm

When do you think any update announcements will be, the first day of nab or sometime towards the end? If there are update announcements...haha


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sean mclennan

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 4:39 pm

Last year it was the night before their user event.
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joechiazza

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 5:54 pm

sean mclennan wrote:Last year it was the night before their user event.

Which night was that? I am seriously keeping my fingers crossed for this!!
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 6:54 pm

Theodore Prentice wrote:
Kholi wrote:but the Gh4's putting out a 2010 image.



2010 image my derrière..

Downloaded the 4k version, and watched on a uhd panel...

(and this is INTERNAL to sd card... the uncompressed 10 bit is gonna be bananas! ! !)


It won't make much of a difference at all.

You could say, though, I'm not as easily impressed as the majority. Floating back and forth between pretty large budgets as a DP and shooting personal material with absolutely nothing, I experience either end of the scale.

If I'm not shooting with BMD cameras, then it's an Alexa or F35... and even the F35 being a 2010 camera STILL puts out something that's more akin to 2012, it was SLIGHTLY ahead of it's time considering.

4K does not impress me, got there a long time ago. It isn't a BMD vs the others thing, the GH4's image is just DSLR all the way, 2010 with a detail boost. That video illustrates that it pretty much looks like a 4K GH3. No thanks.

Go and look at the FS700 4K Odyssey examples, footage being churned out of that combo? Solid.

But, there will be a lot of people that are happy with the GH4 and guess what? That's fine, too. I'm just glad there's an option for myself as an owner that satisfies.
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joechiazza

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 6:55 pm

Kholi wrote:
Theodore Prentice wrote:
Kholi wrote:but the Gh4's putting out a 2010 image.



2010 image my derrière..

Downloaded the 4k version, and watched on a uhd panel...

(and this is INTERNAL to sd card... the uncompressed 10 bit is gonna be bananas! ! !)


It won't make much of a difference at all.

You could say, though, I'm not as easily impressed as the majority. Floating back and forth between pretty large budgets as a DP and shooting personal material with absolutely nothing, I experience either end of the scale.

If I'm not shooting with BMD cameras, then it's an Alexa or F35... and even the F35 being a 2010 camera STILL puts out something that's more akin to 2012, it was SLIGHTLY ahead of it's time considering.

4K does not impress me, got there a long time ago. It isn't a BMD vs the others thing, the GH4's image is just DSLR all the way, 2010 with a detail boost. That video illustrates that it pretty much looks like a 4K GH3. No thanks.

Go and look at the FS700 4K Odyssey examples, footage being churned out of that combo? Solid.

But, there will be a lot of people that are happy with the GH4 and guess what? That's fine, too. I'm just glad there's an option for myself as an owner that satisfies.

I don't really find the image of the Gh4 to be that great. Too much compression.
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 7:00 pm

It's interesting because even without that compression, and this is just my wager--agree or not, it's still going to look the same. The 10bit output won't do much to change that.
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joechiazza

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 7:06 pm

Kholi wrote:It's interesting because even without that compression, and this is just my wager--agree or not, it's still going to look the same. The 10bit output won't do much to change that.

I agree, Its just not that great looking. It doesn't look like log footage, more like video footage. And with that being said, the colors are that great. Looks to me just like standard DSLR. Under a 5d.
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brent k

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 8:53 pm

joechiazza wrote:
sean mclennan wrote:Last year it was the night before their user event.

Which night was that? I am seriously keeping my fingers crossed for this!!

The Night before, April 7th 2013. That would mean tomorrow, for this year.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 9:04 pm

trying to get the 4k version of this :

kholi, if you arent impressed, so be it.

like you said in a previous post, people see images, not the camera it was shot on, and so far, alot of what Ive seen in 4k (on a uhd monitor) from the gh4 has been close enough to the bmpc4k cam (if not better in some instances)

if 8bit 4:2:0 images are giving the bmd cam a run for its money, id take the wager that the 10 bit uncompressed recorded to, say, 10 bit 4:2:2 prores hq, is going to be additionally impressive when taken to the grading suite

you were recently in a thread here talking about how bmd should not implement the ability to shoot 8 bit 4:2:0 in camera as it is a "step backwards".. yet you claim, in contrast of technical differences, that the opposite will yield 0 difference for the gh4.

i dont buy it, at all,... but we shall soon see
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 9:20 pm

Theodore Prentice wrote:trying to get the 4k version of this :

kholi, if you arent impressed, so be it.


I saw it. That's actually the video that lead me to cancel my preorder for the GH4, which I *did* have, as a just-in-case-something-good-turns up.

The moment people start to enter the frame the image goes downhill. And, the video had an edge up on any Blackmagic 4K footage we've seen so far from the get-go, Cooke S4i's may not be real deal S4s but they're nothing to scoff at. The best lookin' 2.5K stuff I've shot used S4 minis. Extrapolating from that, and having spent so long with BMD's 4K camera...

Well, a lot of people will like the GH4, but there really isn't a comparison here to me. GH4 = DSLR look most of us have been dying to get away from for the last three-four years.


you were recently in a thread here talking about how bmd should not implement the ability to shoot 8 bit 4:2:0 in camera as it is a "step backwards".. yet you claim, in contrast of technical differences, that the opposite will yield 0 difference for the gh4.

i dont buy it, at all,... but we shall soon see


They shouldn't take a step backward, but you can't escape the base without going to a greater extreme. Again, just go and look at FS700 footage. Check Philip Bloom's Odyssey Q7 comparison between internal recording, external ProRes from the HDMI port, and then RAW > DNG > ProRes from the Odyssey.

That's how far you have to go to get that kind of image from the sensor, and THEN it's night and day.

I'm okay with being wrong, and when the GH4+External Recording images show up, if they're that different then that's great because right now, the situation's looking old.
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dallascurrie

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 9:31 pm

I think we need to realize we're talking about a 1,700 and 3k camera. Having 4k of this quality was an impossible dream on a budget only a year ago, now everyone starts acting a bit spoiled.

Definitely limitations with the these cameras, but the GH4 has been confirmed to pull down a 4:4:4 from downscaling from 4k to 1080, and the results are incredibly impressive (http://www.eoshd.com/content/12445/pana ... 3-shootout)

NAB will be a good sign to see if the underdogs will disrupt the higher-ups into actually evolving their budget series.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 9:37 pm

show me 10 bit footage from an fs-700 from the hdmi port...

skin tones are a tough grade at 8 bit on any camera...
Last edited by Theodore Prentice on Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 9:38 pm

Kholi wrote:
Well, a lot of people will like the GH4, but there really isn't a comparison here to me. GH4 = DSLR look most of us have been dying to get away from for the last three-four years.




I agree 100% and its why I think the BMCC is the ultimate sub 3k video machine. It has such a filmic look, to my eyes at least.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 9:40 pm

im reserving final judgement until i see the 10 bit uncompressed, from FINAL released firmware

but, so far so good from the gh4...
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 9:48 pm

Theodore Prentice wrote:im reserving final judgement until i see the 10 bit uncompressed, from FINAL released firmware

but, so far so good from the gh4...


FYI it's not uncompressed, it's still compressed... not sure why people keep saying that. If it were actually uncompressed this would be a very different conversation.



^ DVX100 with Andromeda mod... completely different story. Which, oddly enough, is pretty similar to what BMD gives you theoretically, just in a single body with a much more manageable workflow.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 9:56 pm

fine, is 10 bit 4:2:2 better : )

now.. about that 10-bit output from the fs-700 hdmi port.....
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 10:01 pm

Theodore Prentice wrote:fine, is 10 bit 4:2:2 better : )

now.. about that 10-bit output from the fs-700 hdmi port.....


There isn't, it doesn't spit out 10-bit from the HDMI port, but there are a lot of examples around the net of 10-bit versus 8-bit. It doesn't make a huge difference in the way that you're thinking, as in morphing it into something that doesn't represent what's there at 8 420... but, oh well.

Soon enough.
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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 10:05 pm

Theodore Prentice wrote:im reserving final judgement until i see the 10 bit uncompressed, from FINAL released firmware

but, so far so good from the gh4...


Bottom line is even if you do this semi-professionally (2-3 gigs a year) you could justify owning a BMCC + GH4 and make up your own mine or keep both.

I'd rather this setup than a Scarlett, but thats just me. You'd still be saving 5-8K once you factor in the Red screen + media + batts
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 10:10 pm

Kholi wrote: It doesn't make a huge difference in the way that you're thinking



what is the bit rate coming out of the hdmi port on the gh4?

im pretty sure that whatever it is, when you take it in conjunction with the bit depth.. well, yes. we are looking at a huge difference in "potential" overall image quality.

:P
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Scott Pultz

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostThu Apr 03, 2014 11:08 pm

I was just about to start a thread about how the GH4 hasn't given me the "game changer" impression that others seem to be getting. It looks like a more detailed version of what we have been seeing from DSLRs for awhile now. It's a nice improvement, but not necessarily the direction that I would want to go.

BMCC changed things in terms of color and DR. Unfortunately it has been needlessly hampered by moire and aliasing.

BMPC changed things in terms of detail and motion. Unfortunately it is often hampered by FPN, although often it is looking perfectly amazing. It will be tough for me to give up global shutter by moving to another camera after getting used to it.

The GH4 is also not interesting to me as a stills camera. I'm not going back to a small sensor for stills after using FF sensors, unless the camera is small enough to be in my pocket.

The price differences between a GH4 and BMPC don't matter to me personally. $1700 or $3000 are in the same bucket, especially when you start adding necessary accessories. I'm only down here because the $12,000 cameras don't seem to offer better image quality and the $40-60k cameras are too expensive for me.
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Rafael Molina

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 4:15 pm

It will be a great disappointment if they don't announce a new Camera haha, I'm dying for a High Speed Cinema Camera or something. That's a matter apart of the Firmwares.
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 4:18 pm

^ Yes. I really hope this happens. THen the ecosystem will be complete.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 4:39 pm

Scott P wrote:I was just about to start a thread about how the GH4 hasn't given me the "game changer" impression that others seem to be getting. .



hoping that we can steer this back to a thread about the BMCC and its much anticipated "update" if any.

I havent seen alot of talk about "game changing" as far as the gh4 is concerned, and certainly havent bought into that idea about the BMD cameras either, least of which have been on the street for about a year and a half now.

Heres hoping to see some sort of update to the promised firmware announcement from last year, the "coming soon" trick wont work anymore BMD.....
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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 4:46 pm

Based on the quality of pre-NAB announcements so far, this might be one of the best shows in years. Lots of really good stuff from a wide variety of vendors, designed to solve real-world problems. Will be interesting to see what else is coming (large & small).
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Eugene Carter

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 5:10 pm

Scott P wrote:hoping that we can steer this back to a thread about the BMCC and its much anticipated "update" if any.


+1
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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 5:17 pm

Eugene C. wrote:
Scott P wrote:hoping that we can steer this back to a thread about the BMCC and its much anticipated "update" if any.


+1
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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 5:50 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:Based on the quality of pre-NAB announcements so far, this might be one of the best shows in years. Lots of really good stuff from a wide variety of vendors, designed to solve real-world problems. Will be interesting to see what else is coming (large & small).


Are these being collected anywhere? I'm actually having a hard time finding cool stuff announced
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 7:25 pm

Eugene C. wrote:
Theodore Prentice wrote:hoping that we can steer this back to a thread about the BMCC and its much anticipated "update" if any.


+1



fixed it for you
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joechiazza

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 8:00 pm

Isn't the first day of the event today? Is there a website or something with all the announcements?
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bhook

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 8:03 pm

It's tomorrow isn't it?
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Eugene Carter

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 8:43 pm

Does anyone remember exactly what day they announced the 4K last year?
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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 8:51 pm

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John Christon

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 10:56 pm

Kholi wrote:
Theodore Prentice wrote:trying to get the 4k version of this :

kholi, if you arent impressed, so be it.


I saw it. That's actually the video that lead me to cancel my preorder for the GH4, which I *did* have, as a just-in-case-something-good-turns up.


I gotta be honest chiming in on this GH4 stuff... that video killed it for me too. I was intrigued until I saw that. Not the kind of images I want to be making. Andrew seems to be hype machining really hard for the GH4 too, making tons of comparisons that I would not necessarily agree with.


On the blackmagic front - I think it was hook or kholi - said a 4k cinema camera would be awesome, and I have to agree. either that or some much more expensive, much more fully featured camera would be really cool as well - go after the mid range sony and canon and now panasonic
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 11:04 pm

I post too much, but I definitely feel that they should go ahead and price themselves out of this bracket and just make a better camera. I've always been a good 90 percent on all three cameras, with a few "ehs" here and there-- HDMI on Pocket, Moire on 2.5K, Some of the FPN on 4K, but for the most part I use them as much as I can and get a lot of mileage out of the little dudes.

Pricing higher, at that point there'll less noise and hopefully better hardware/firmware for those that are willing to put their money where their mouths (or keyboards) are.

THat's just me, though.
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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostFri Apr 04, 2014 11:34 pm

Kholi wrote:I post too much, but I definitely feel that they should go ahead and price themselves out of this bracket and just make a better camera. I've always been a good 90 percent on all three cameras, with a few "ehs" here and there-- HDMI on Pocket, Moire on 2.5K, Some of the FPN on 4K, but for the most part I use them as much as I can and get a lot of mileage out of the little dudes.

Pricing higher, at that point there'll less noise and hopefully better hardware/firmware for those that are willing to put their money where their mouths (or keyboards) are.

THat's just me, though.


For sure man. I'm with you. I'd gladly pay more for better hardware/firmware in conjunction with the image quality they are able to produce.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSat Apr 05, 2014 12:07 am

i guess when bmd hands me cameras to .. uh .. beta test.. i'll start with the riotous comments too

first its, the image is garb, then its, i ordered one but cancelled my pre-order cuz of one video i saw.

then its, bmd should make more expensive and better cameras. (like the more expensive camera forums are so quiet and civilized), but I thought they were the renegade game changers for the little guys.?? no?

I paid for my blackmagic cameras (and every camera this company I run over here owns)

money isnt the issue

now... about that NAB 2014 bmcc update....
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSat Apr 05, 2014 12:20 am

Theodore Prentice wrote:i guess when bmd hands me cameras to .. uh .. beta test.. i'll start with the riotous comments too

first its, the image is garb, then its, i ordered one but cancelled my pre-order cuz of one video i saw.

then its, bmd should make more expensive and better cameras. (like the more expensive camera forums are so quiet and civilized), but I thought they were the renegade game changers for the little guys.?? no?

I paid for my blackmagic cameras (and every camera this company I run over here owns)

money isnt the issue

now... about that NAB 2014 bmcc update....


I paid for BMD cameras as well. Three in fact.

An MFT (middle of last year), EF (First day preorder), and Pocket Camera (for a three camera shoot).

Your behavior repeatedly invalidates your opinions, but at least it's consistent in its offense.

It's great when gear costs too much for a certain demographic, keeps the noise levels down.
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brent k

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSat Apr 05, 2014 12:27 am

Kholi wrote:I post too much, but I definitely feel that they should go ahead and price themselves out of this bracket and just make a better camera. I've always been a good 90 percent on all three cameras, with a few "ehs" here and there-- HDMI on Pocket, Moire on 2.5K, Some of the FPN on 4K, but for the most part I use them as much as I can and get a lot of mileage out of the little dudes.

Pricing higher, at that point there'll less noise and hopefully better hardware/firmware for those that are willing to put their money where their mouths (or keyboards) are.

THat's just me, though.
I think what you mean, is you would rather have a camera that had a longer development cycle. Because, if you're not priced to move a large volume of cameras, the price would balloon out of control. Furthermore, the price of the camera has nothing to do with the lack of software updates these cameras are receiving. For example, my GoPro camera gets updates all the time, and that thing was $300.

I think BMD problem is they don't actually have a working product when they announce what is coming. They then try and put it together basically overnight.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSat Apr 05, 2014 12:29 am

bro, you tried to tell me to go look at a comparison between an in camera codec, an hdmi out version, and a raw version.. when I called you on it (the fs-700 does not do 10 bit out of hdmi) you balked

up next, you try to invalidate uncompressed (bit rate) 10 bit (bit depth) with no answer to my questions directed at you specifically about it.

if you want to have a civil convo about then do so, no need for the attempt at back handed insults/attacks
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSat Apr 05, 2014 12:33 am

Kholi wrote:

It's great when gear costs too much for a certain demographic, keeps the noise levels down.



lovely way to alienate the people who are on a low budget scraping up coin to get in this business

I paid more for 16 gig p2 cards than any camera in the bmd line up...but hey, there was no noise over on dvxuser in those days was there kholi..

lol

i give up
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSat Apr 05, 2014 12:50 am

Theodore Prentice wrote:bro, you tried to tell me to go look at a comparison between an in camera codec, an hdmi out version, and a raw version.. when I called you on it (the fs-700 does not do 10 bit out of hdmi) you balked

up next, you try to invalidate uncompressed (bit rate) 10 bit (bit depth) with no answer to my questions directed at you specifically about it.

if you want to have a civil convo about then do so, no need for the attempt at back handed insults/attacks


You use the phrase "backhanded", but I do not think you know what it means: there was nothing backhanded about the comment. I believe my text's very straight-forward, and aimed directly at you.

Backhanded would be [lazily] insinuating that I haven't purchased BMD cameras, and asinine is probably how you feel on account of being incorrect. Hence the sudden (yet, predictable) crab-shelled defense mechanism the primary trolls pull around here.

HVx200's time in comparison to the DSLR boom? I don't apologize, you are wrong. It was never this disgusting. I was right there spending quite a lot of cash that I scraped together, which reminds me...

Who says art in/and commerce is a right? It's not, it's a privilege, always has been and always will be.
Kholi Hicks
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Theodore Prentice

  • Posts: 591
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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSat Apr 05, 2014 12:56 am

yawn

now

back to

NAB 2014 bmcc update


please
(when those that continue to ignore the issues presented to them, then resort to hyperbole, want to finish any discussions, the PM feature is alive and well)
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bhook

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSat Apr 05, 2014 1:01 am

Kholi wrote:It's great when gear costs too much for a certain demographic, keeps the noise levels down.


Unbelievable. I guess you lack the ability to step back and see how arrogant and condescending these repeated comments of yours come across. Why don't you just buy your own personal Alexa and enjoy your quite peer-free life? Can't afford it? :lol:
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSat Apr 05, 2014 1:05 am

mhood wrote:
Kholi wrote:It's great when gear costs too much for a certain demographic, keeps the noise levels down.


Unbelievable. I guess you lack the ability to step back and see how arrogant and condescending these repeated comments of yours come across. Why don't you just buy your own personal Alexa and enjoy your quite peer-free life? Can't afford it? :lol:



im pretty sure hes not a mod on the r3d forums :lol:
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: NAB 2014 bmcc update

PostSat Apr 05, 2014 1:11 am

mhood wrote:
Kholi wrote:It's great when gear costs too much for a certain demographic, keeps the noise levels down.


Unbelievable. I guess you lack the ability to step back and see how arrogant and condescending these repeated comments of yours come across. Why don't you just buy your own personal Alexa and enjoy your quite peer-free life? Can't afford it? :lol:


I know exactly how it sounds to certain people (for example, you, predictably appearing almost as if you're scheduled), I just don't care. DSLR boom brought the worse kinds, it's no coincidence that they were also the cheapest way to achieve decent quality at the time.

Alexa's not in my price range, I'm not crying about it. =T But, at least you understand that there aren't many other considerable options below Alexa that fits my tastes. Note, I didn't say budget, I said tastes. I'm pretty comfortable knowing what I can afford and what I can't, I also consider myself a pretty intelligent consumer locust:

If I buy something I don't like I take it back or sell it.

But, I suppose you guys should get back to being upset about it now... let you to it.
Kholi Hicks
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