Original Ursa 12k Sensor

Has this sensor tech been abandoned?

Why do you think it’s abandoned?
All the 12K models use that technology.

Why do you think it’s abandoned?
All the 12K models use that technology.

Why wasn't it used in the Pyxis or the new Ursa Cine 12k and 17k?

Why do you think it’s abandoned?
All the 12K models use that technology.

Why wasn't it used in the Pyxis or the new Ursa Cine 12k and 17k?

Pyxis is a full frame 6k sensor from cinema camera 6k in a box body, where you read that 12/17k cine are not wwwrgb sensor?


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Why do you think it’s abandoned?
All the 12K models use that technology.

Why wasn't it used in the Pyxis or the new Ursa Cine 12k and 17k?

Pyxis is a full frame 6k sensor from cinema camera 6k in a box body, where you read that 12/17k cine are not wwwrgb sensor?


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Grant said it's completely new sensor technology when he introduced it. I suppose it's the 2nd generation of the original sensor.

2:03:25

So, to me, because they didn't use the original sensor in the Pyxis it seems that the original 12k technology has been abandoned. I don't mind the new flagships using a new generation of the technology; mainly, I wonder why the original tech wasn't used in the Pyxis.

It's all speculation including yours but the reality is that the 12K/17K on a large sensor are still small pixel sites. WWWRGB is small sensor tech for improving low light and color by mixing equal amounts of RGB pixels plus clear pixels interpolated for added sensitivity and DR. The CFA is manufactured using equipment similar to inkjet printing, or is inkject printing. Unless you think the original 12K was a failure in its reproduction of color and DR and especially given it's extremely tight site spacings, I would not read into Grant's remarks that the pioneered tech was "abandoned." I suspect it will still be used in 12K/17K but not 4K-6K.

So, to me, because they didn't use the original sensor in the Pyxis it seems that the original 12k technology has been abandoned. I don't mind the new flagships using a new generation of the technology; mainly, I wonder why the original tech wasn't used in the Pyxis.

The Pyxis is a very, very affordable camera for what it offers. One of the many reasons it is so affordable is because its sensor is fairly long in the tooth at this point and—I assume—reasonably priced. BMD also probably did the lion's share of the image pipeline R&D legwork when the made the BMCC6K, so there are those savings too. It's a budget camera, and in order to hit that budget pricing there was no way they were going to be able to use a bespoke BMD sensor design from a camera that costs twice as much.

Who knows though! I personally would love to see them roll out a Super35 version of the Pyxis with the BMD Super35 12KOLPF sensor in it, but I doubt we're going to see anything like that any time soon.

I have the 12k OLPF, love it. I just thought that the Pyxis should have the same sensor… Maybe maxed out at 8k. Instead I’m thinking of waiting for the Pyxis to come out so I can get a Pocket 6k FF for nothing from some gear junkie. The used market is flooded with S35 6Ks in my area.

I have the 12k OLPF, love it. I just thought that the Pyxis should have the same sensor… Maybe maxed out at 8k. Instead I’m thinking of waiting for the Pyxis to come out so I can get a Pocket 6k FF for nothing from some gear junkie. The used market is flooded with S35 6Ks in my area.

Pyxis is the answer to all people that moan to have ff and box cam, now I want to see how many excuse they find to not buy them.

A wwwrgb Pyxis may cost too much for that target market. May be in future, when they optimise wwwrgb sensor production, we can see a Pyxis or a cinema camera body with this tech

The used market is flooded with S35 6Ks in my area.

Right, people should have latest tech or not live or work . Me too in my area, and I bought for half their price a couple of 6k to add to my setup


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Pyxis is the answer to all people that moan to have ff and box cam, now I want to see how many excuse they find to not buy them.

A wwwrgb Pyxis may cost too much for that target market. May be in future, when they optimise wwwrgb sensor production, we can see a Pyxis or a cinema camera body with this tech…

I don’t anticipate BMD putting the URSA Cine 12K sensor in the Pyxis 2nd generation although that would be a bold move. But it is possible that the Pyxis 1st generation doesn’t tick everyone’s boxes. I’m hoping there is a future iteration that delivers significantly more dynamic range than my BMPCC4K and I’ll expect to pay more for that. That said I do like the current option of dual ISO sensors and might have to lose that to get greater dynamic range in a future sensor. Maybe a global shutter with 14 stops costing $5K?

Today unfortunately this is all speculation for me as I’m really struggling with my debt load due to non-cinematographic priorities. That current increased debt will be gone in two years. But I may have to deal with one or two more pending large expenses in the next year or two.

The original 12K is great. However it did differ in that it has a higher density of photosites.
I would still like to see BMD make a pocket type with a 6K super16 size sensor with that high density WWWRGB.

The original 12K is great. However it did differ in that it has a higher density of photosites.
I would still like to see BMD make a pocket type with a 6K super16 size sensor with that high density WWWRGB.

that would actually be pretty fun. a high-res s16 camera. If they would make it compact enough, it would sell like the original Pocket.

But given the inevitable march towards 8K, I think a micro four-thirds mirrorless sensor with the 2.2 micron pitch might work better with an 8K horizontal resolution of 8192 photosites (18.0224mm).

6K 6144 photosites 2.2 microns would be 13.5168mm RGBW to deliver 4K video.

I’d rather see 2.9 micron photosites though as 6144 photosites would be 17.8176mm mFT territory.

I would still like to see BMD make a pocket type with a 6K super16 size sensor with that high density WWWRGB.

I don't think it would produce sufficient 'acceptable' resolution. WRGB and normal Bayer sensors are not directly comparable in photosite resolution that the numbers would imply, due to the 6x6 and 2x2 differences in sampling, I believe, i.e. a 12k WRGB sensor is not simply 4 x (or whatever) the rez of a 6K Bayer one, or simply like a 12K Bayer sensor would be, and that can be demonstrated in extreme pixel peeping. Part of the advantages of these BMD sensors (including great colour) require that amount of photosites for this technology to properly deliver, again I believe. I think this has been a misunderstanding/marketing error in the whole '12K'.

if you’re right Steve, then it’s confusion is caused by my understanding that one can deliver a 12K debayered image as well as 8K and 4K.

Abandoned!!!!

They just RE-UP’d, not abandoned. They just DOUBLED DOWN making the worlds only purchase-able Alexa 65 sized RAW sensor camera? That’s not abandonment. That’s diving in head first.

The RGBW sensors are expensive. They are custom made with BMD the only sales.

They would make a pocket camera a lot more expensive to produce if they used these sensors.

It would also need totally different hardware which would also add to the cost.

JB

...
The RGBW sensors are expensive. They are custom made with BMD the only sales.

They would make a pocket camera a lot more expensive to produce if they used these sensors.

It would also need totally different hardware which would also add to the cost.
JB

understood, but:

some S16 sensors might be cut out of the original S35 chips that were destined to waste

and maybe the media is uped to CFexpress type B (Angelbird has sustained write speed of 1300 MB/s) - facilitating using only one card.

then maybe an URSA-like body reduced to go with S16 (dare I think even a pyxis-like S16) - so maybe not then a pocket or the lowest in price, but rather a decent 6K S16 camera fitting in the price middle of the rest of the line.

some S16 sensors might be cut out of the original S35 chips that were destined to waste

I don't think that's a valid business model. Far too unpredictable.
People assumed something similar with some early models by Red, but it was simply an urban legend.

People assumed something similar with some early models by Red, but it was simply an urban legend.

Totally is. Assumed because larger sensors tend to have a higher rejection rate, but it's basically because there's more chances of failures. It's not like the failures are only on the outside of the S16 sensor area and the middle of the sensor somehow is free of defects...

Typically the customer (BMD to the sensor fab) accepts a threshold of acceptable QC losses. It can be more than 50% rejection rate. The remaining GOOD QC sensors go into cameras but you still have to pay for each sensor made, be it good to bad. Typically as the manufacturing beds in the rejection rate tends to drop as they improve the manufacturing, This is also why the cost is tiered with different volumes as well.

I'm fairly certain by far the most expensive part in the 12K is the sensor itself.

At the numbers BMD sells cameras, they don't end up much less after the first couple of tiers.

JB