New Blackmagic URSA Cine 17K 65 cinema camera

Shown here at IBC Amsterdam today - but nothing as yet on the website?

Featured at: 0.33

[Tim Schumann]

Worth noting that Bob meant LPL mount rather than L mount in the video.

Worth noting that Bob meant LPL mount rather than L mount in the video.

Ships with PL and Hasselblad HC and then LPL mount is an optional extra, as is the EF mount (although most EF lenses will only cover the 12K, 8K and 4K full frame formats).

I assumed when they said L they meant LPL as that’s becoming a short hand for LPL. Which is kind of problematic because there is an L Mount. I even caught someone saying L for the Alexa 35 when they had the LPL on it.


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Ah, I see they've called it a roadmap product, so it's a way off release (indicated early 2025) - hence why it's not yet up on the site.

Here's more of a peek at IBC:

Ah, I see they've called it a roadmap product, so it's a way off release (indicated early 2025) - hence why it's not yet up on the site.

Here's more of a peek at IBC:

Yeah, that's a clear indication of when we'll see the 17K shipping. And, probably more reasonable. But, still the firmware for the UCine12K being out means it should be shipping now.

I am going to be so curious to see footage from the 17K. Hopefully at the nearby IMAX. But it does mean IMAX needs to step up their projection resolutions. Hopefully they start projecting in 8K soon.

I wonder if BMD is building a close relationship with IMAX and coordinating a product release with an IMAX press release. Or will the strategy concentrate on winning A-list support such as Christopher Nolan. And when will we see the Immersive camera released that must be in concert with Apple since the popular target for that will be Apple Vision Pro.

As for mere mortals seeing the images from this camera, most of us will only have 4K to 6K monitors for viewing footage. Presumably the colour from the 17K BRAW will look like the footage from the Cine 12K, but a lot wider field of view.

After a decade of competing with other camera manufactures with vastly more experience and resources than BMD, there are lessons to be learned from following the historical examples of warfare. With enemies fighting with the same technologies, the same game plan, inevitably it’s a tough slog that anyone can win or lose.

But if you are a successful innovator, victories await. The slingshot, the long bow, the musket, and so on, changed the nature of a battle. Will the URSA Cine 17K and the future immersive camera be successful as innovation in a playing field that is in need of remarkable change. The immersive camera (2 8K sensors paired) may save Apple’s floundering headset by providing a plenitude of affordable spatial content and that camera or the Cine 17K may revitalize IMAX with increased detail and realism where that’s important.

Edit
Looks like NAB2025 is going to be very exciting due to potential releases by BMD.

Edit2
The Immersive camera uses two 12K sensors to generate two 8K deliverables.

Do we have any information on the supported frame rates?

Do we have any information on the supported frame rates?

Look at the tech specs on the product page.

Do we have any information on the supported frame rates?

Look at the tech specs on the product page.

There is no product page....yet. Grant did announce this camera earlier this year at NAB so it's not a surprise, but it won't be released until next year.

Do we have any information on the supported frame rates?

Look at the tech specs on the product page.

There is no product page....yet. Grant did announce this camera earlier this year at NAB so it's not a surprise, but it won't be released until next year.

I mean, I'm sure they're still figuring all that out. The reason they haven't put up a Tech Spec page is that they haven't come to a solid decision on what the exact specs will be possible with the new camera. They just put one together for IBC and are probably going to start testing to find its limits. Once they know what reasonable frame rates it can do then they'll post that in an official tech spec page.

For now they mainly have been putting the 17K 65mm out there as a roadmap on where they plan to go. Teasing the industry with this pipe dream. And, they are going to accomplish it.

If I had to guess based on the 12K max frame rates: 17K 2.2:1 Open Gate will get 60 FPS. But that's my guess. If that's the max frame rate then that would be amazing!

My guess: if the sensor is the same height as the Cine 12K then likely the same scan times and frame rates.

Also I suspect that much of the development resource for this "pipe dream", as Tim calls it, comes from the stereo camera in conjunction with Apple... just a guess.

Will be interesting to see the specs for the Cine 17K with a single 17K frame and the specs for the Immersive camera with Left and Right frames I presume.

Rick, "The sensor delivers 8160 x 7200 resolution per eye with pixel level synchronization and an incredible 16 stops of dynamic range, so cinematographers can shoot 90fps stereoscopic 3D immersive cinema content to a single file."
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/media/ ... 0240611-02

Not sure though if this is a single sensor (duel) or two.

Thanks, Jeffrey! I missed seeing this press release. The Left and Right “eyes’ are pixel synced! I suspect each image is captured at the same moment from two active 8160x7200 windows of the 17K sensor. Doing all this and writing to a single file at 90 fps is impressive. It definitely doesn’t sound like any variation of the old interlaced fields used for television which I had thought could be used. So no artefacts from movement between two interlaced fields.

I don’t know if BMD is applying any new proprietary technology in their method that they will be covering with patents, but I expect so, especially if it is one physical sensor with two windows.

My guess is that it will work like the Canon VR Lens solution which projects two fisheye images onto the sensor which is then captured as a single movie file. I don't think they need two windows at the camera level. The processing software takes care of that bit.

Thanks, Scott. Here’s Canon’s comparable offering but the specs for the BMD Immersive significantly exceed Canon’s system:

https://www.usa.canon.com/cameras/eos-vr-system

Stereo images are projected on one sensor and can be knitted together in post.

I have the Canon system using an R5C. It's the best there is at the moment, but it could really use a lot more resolution and dynamic range so I'm hoping the BM camera gets formally announced/released soon.

The Canon lens could be used with a Red Raptor for more dynamic range and frame rates, but the resolution would drop due to the Red sensor being larger.

Scott, when you look at the photo posted by BMD (post #13 in this thread), do you think BMD used the same lens assembly as Canon? To my eye, they seem different. But your opinion is better informed.

The press release for the Cine Immersive says “URSA Cine Immersive features a fixed, custom, stereoscopic 3D lens system with dual 8K image sensors that can capture 16 stops of dynamic range.” So we’re are talking about 2 sensors with each image in sync to the other.

But then the press release says “The sensor delivers 8160 x 7200 resolution per eye…” Are they misspeaking and should have said “The sensors each deliver 8160 x 7200 resolution per eye.”

Looking at the 16:9 frame for the Cine 17K which uses the full height of the sensor, the image circle is just under 47.6 mm. If I remember correctly, the minimum image circle for VistaVision is 46.3mm, but some full-frame lenses will cover more than that.

So it may be possible for a Cine 17K shooter to use some existing lenses without going to new traditional medium format lenses. As long as you’re satisfied with a sensor resolution of 14304 x 8040 pixels. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

That’s a generous amount of oversampled photosites to produce 8K video in post if you wish.

I compared the 17K cropped to 16:9 using the full height against the RED VistaVision 8K sensor and they are basically the same size. So any Full Frame / VistaVision lenses that cover the RED VistaVision 8K will also cover the 16:9 Window of the 17K sensor. This means those sweet new DZOFilm Arles Primes cover that.

This is big because it means that the 17K can truly boast being a bigger sensor than the RED. And, if you have clients who don't need 17K 2.2:1 aspect ratio you can always shoot 16:9 using the full height of the sensor and be just above 14K in resolution. I think it was 14K with my math. I'll have to go back and double check that: 14, 311K.

16:9 is 14,311 pixels X 8,040 pixels.

Good news for the Arles primes.

The dimension for the 16:9 crop is 14304 x 8040.

Good news for the Arles primes.

The dimension for the 16:9 crop is 14304 x 8040.

Ah yes, you're right. I just did quick math of 8040x1.78 for my math to get to my value. But it is 14,304 as revealed in the ProAV TV video from yesterday. Just watched that. So much good info!

True, that interview provided so much information in a calm delivery with time to cover a lot of the bases and reflect upon what you hear. Interviews made at these conferences are good, but they’re usually rushed and too full of the crowd ambience. I’m reviewing the URSA Cine 12K website again to help appreciate all the design goodness in that camera that I may have glossed over when it was hot off the press.

With the comments about (continuous) auto focus in that interview there may be future changes but it’s not all that important to me today as there are decent alternatives to add that capability with third-party gear, from DJI for example (up to 20 meters to the subject) which might work for me for almost everything I need (although a 25 or 30 meter limit would be ideal).

Sadly I think I can say I won’t be buying new gear for years now. My apartment is now unlivable after Hurricane Helena. I’m still assessing, but I have some damaged furniture and such. I was lucky to get back from my trip to VT in time to evacuate all major cinema equipment and computer systems. But I probably will no longer have a place of my own and will be dealing with loses to assets. So it’s unlikely I’ll be upgrading any gear for the foreseeable future.


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Tim, we’re so sorry to hear about this misfortune but glad you could save a lot of gear and computers. I hope there’s a silver lining somewhere in these dark clouds for you.

So sorry Tim, that's awful. Hoping for the best for you.

Sorry to hear Tim. Wish you all the best!

I feel with you on this, Tim. We had our roof ripped off by a tornado in 2021 and just managed to save ourselves and most of our equipment. I hope you can recover as well as we did.

Full Tech Specs finally released: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... /W-URSA-64

Downloadable PDF: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/api/pr ... hspecs.pdf

Sadly, no internal ND. But still very impressive features. You can even shoot full 65mm sensor in lower resolutions.

Only 22 recording resolutions!

Including 9648 x 8040 (12K 6:5) from the Cine 12K camera. Well done, BMD.

Only 22 recording resolutions!

Including 9648 x 8040 (12K 6:5) from the Cine 12K camera. Well done, BMD.

Yeah, if you're going to shoot the 12K VV resolutions you may as well go with the UC12K because at least then you get internal ND. The 17K 65 really should be only for that larger 65mm sensor and some of the other options within there. But it's nice to know you have the 12K options as well. There are a ton of resolutions.

The thing that makes me most excited is 17K 65mm Open Gate at 60 FPS for the HFR. That's a sweet spot for HFR, and means the rolling shutter should be as good as the S35 12K in 12K, and UMP 4.6K G1, as those maxed out at 60 FPS as well.

I think you’re correct. CaptainHook will likely update the Readout Times sticky note for the Cine 17K and Cine Immersive close to their actual launch.

I hope they tell us exactly the highest resolution would be to shoot exactly 120fps is?

I hope they tell us exactly the highest resolution would be to shoot exactly 120fps is?

High Speed Frame Rates
17K 2.2:1 open gate up to 60 fps
12K 2.4:1 up to 90fps
8K 2.2:1 open gate up to 100 fps
8K 2.4:1 up to 170 fps

Source: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/api/pr ... hspecs.pdf

I hope they tell us exactly the highest resolution would be to shoot exactly 120fps is?

High Speed Frame Rates
17K 2.2:1 open gate up to 60 fps
12K 2.4:1 up to 90fps
8K 2.2:1 open gate up to 100 fps
8K 2.4:1 up to 170 fps

Source: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/api/pr ... hspecs.pdf

I already know about that, I was wondering about which resolution would have 120 frames per second, I'm guessing it's in between 8k open gate and 8k 2.4:1

You would select the 8K 2.4:1 resolution and then using the offspeed setting, select 120 fps.

The website tech specs may not be completely described until the other webpages that describe the features of the Cine 17K are included.

Well, I don't think 8K 2.4:1 is using the 65mm Sensor portion, I think that is restricted to the 12K Sensor portion. This is an educated guess based off the Tech Spec PDF and the Data Calculator on the UCine Front Page.

Screenshot 2024-12-22 at 2.47.49 PM.png (279.07 KiB) Viewed 7362 times

This is the table I created based on the available information in the Tech Spec PDF and the Data Calculator giving the windows for the UC17K. Now, I would love for someone from Blackmagic to confirm whether this is accurate or not.

That looks so cool.
Just put a pre-order.

This somewhat dated article about IMAX from indepthcine is interesting, especially the digital sensor content and the IMAX approved cameras. You can see how the Cine 17K can get a foot in the door and I hope BMD announces some relationship with IMAX when the camera officially launches in 2025.

https://www.indepthcine.com/videos/imax

How BMD will respond to the two IMAX aspect ratios (1.43:1 and 1.9:1) and current IMAX projector limitations (2K and 4K) remains to be seen.

Obviously IMAX film cameras with a frame height about 48.5mm are rare and result in shallow depth of field. Tim has offered us a possible digital 15 perf digital sensor to directly satisfy this look, but that seems a bit of a stretch in 2025.

Will the digital sensors compare favorably to IMAX film colour? If the answer is “No” maybe the ability to record at high resolutions and faster frame rates will still make the results irresistible… if projectors match at least 8K as Tim suggested.

It does feel like IMAX is on the precipice of 1967 deja vu. 2027 is sixty years later when this may be finally answered.

What's the next place to follow updates?

Looks like Greig Fraser is testing one of the first 17Ks!!! Can’t wait to see what footage this Academy Award Winner shoots with this camera.


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Is there a public link available to that 55m (55 minutes?)?

Now this is news! Looks like BMD is well on its way with their Cine 17K promotion with a renowned A-list DP.

Is there a public link available to that 55m (55 minutes?)?

Now this is news! Looks like BMD is well on its way with their Cine 17K promotion with a renowned A-list DP.

That “55m” is as that he shared the Story 55-minutes ago. It’s now 10 hours ago and shows “10h” there. The Story will be gone in 14 hours. This was on his Instagram profile: https://www.instagram.com/greigfraser_d ... Z2eHo1ZHd2


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D’oh! Thanks, Tim.

My Instagram experience has been just to follow BlackmagicDesign. Very limited.

Glad you can keep up posted on the Cine 17K progress as this has tremendous potential to raise the profile of BMD cameras and Resolve as an option to consider. I’ve no idea what it costs to rent an ARRI 65 for a month of shooting but I suspect you could buy two Cine 17s for the rental cost. Sure major productions play the rental game but maybe BMD will put a dent in that model when it comes to high-end cameras. After availability and capability, dependability and support are key to success. Having IMAX on-side of course would be a huge shot in the arm since the 17K has the potential to reduce their costs greatly and support more productions.

D’oh! Thanks, Tim.

My Instagram experience has been just to follow BlackmagicDesign. Very limited.

Glad you can keep up posted on the Cine 17K progress as this has tremendous potential to raise the profile of BMD cameras and Resolve as an option to consider. I’ve no idea what it costs to rent an ARRI 65 for a month of shooting but I suspect you could buy two Cine 17s for the rental cost. Sure major productions play the rental game but maybe BMD will put a dent in that model when it comes to high-end cameras. After availability and capability, dependability and support are key to success. Having IMAX on-side of course would be a huge shot in the arm since the 17K has the potential to reduce their costs greatly and support more productions.

What I think would be really cool is if someone could test the the noise characteristics of the the 17k and the new 265, as I've recalled that even the 65 was cleaner in how it captured data compared to the other alev 3 sensors and noise is my biggest concern with the Ursa cine, which while we're here for anyone that has shot with the cine 12k, is it at all usable at iso 3200? I'm just very used to the idea of using the big 3 Arri, Sony and Red at that iso I want to know if the Ursa cine falls in line on that front like it has elsewhere.

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Fujifilm GFX Eterna large format camera for filmmakers introduced in November 2024 with a release planned in 2025:

https://www.cined.com/fujifilm-filmmaki ... d-in-2025/

There are not a lot of details yet but interesting to compare with BMD’s Cine 17K LF camera also due in 2025.

The sensor is identical to that in the GFX 100 II stills camera. Somewhat smaller horizontally and taller vertically with a 4:3 aspect ratio and an image circle slightly under 55mm whereas the Cine 17K is slightly over 55mm.

Fujifilm will also release a new 32-90mm zoom that integrates with the camera controls.