HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

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emdy

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HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 4:44 pm

I think Blackmagic Design does really great at rolling out (announcing) several smart products annually. However, I believe that their success in marketing these products have been as a result of existing clients giving great reviews on them.

If the majority of us pre-existing clients (some of who have a complete lineup of pre-existing cameras) hold off on placing orders for new cameras until Grant Petty and his team give us an idea of what's actually going on with firmware updates and fixes for the BMCC/BMPC 4K /BMPCC, we will be left stranded. Below is a list of products announced at NAB 2014, and non of these have anything to do with the existing Cameras.

The new products we are announcing are:

Blackmagic URSA Camera
DaVinci Resolve 11
Blackmagic Studio Camera
ATEM Camera Control
ATEM 2 M/E Production Studio 4K
Smart Videohub 12 x 12 and Smart Videohub 20 x 20
Mini Converters with 6G-SDI and Ultra HD
Mini Converter - SDI to HDMI 4K
Mini Converter - HDMI to SDI 4K
Mini Converter - SDI to Analog 4K
Mini Converter - SDI Distribution 4K
Teranex Express with 12G-SDI
DeckLink SDI 4K and DeckLink Studio 4K
Cintel Film Scanner

The rate of fragility complaints, coupled with accessibility issues are rapidly on the rise, causing most retailers to rewrite their return policies strictly for Blackmagic Design products e.g if you have a BMD camera from Adorama, you can no longer return it once the box is opened.

ALL this said, I have been a long standing advocate for BMD and own a long list of their products which I do resell, and will continue to give great reviews on them. The new products look stunning, but when my client begin to doubt my promises, I have to do a reality check.
Last edited by emdy on Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kyle Gordon

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 4:46 pm

Right on.

To not even be able to give INFORMATION about the firmware is ridiculous.

I think a lot of people are furious today, and with good reason.
Kyle Gordon
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emdy

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 4:52 pm

NYCcomposer wrote:Right on.

To not even be able to give INFORMATION about the firmware is ridiculous.

I think a lot of people are furious today, and with good reason.



Yes, I think BMD is delivering products based on our demand and we have to let them know what's important to the consumer.
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joechiazza

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 4:56 pm

NYCcomposer wrote:Right on.

To not even be able to give INFORMATION about the firmware is ridiculous.

I think a lot of people are furious today, and with good reason.

+1 Very very upset and disappointed. I kind of held them up in my list of favorite companies right there with Apple. If Apple ever pulled something like this on my I might end up killing myself.
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ClaytonMoore

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 5:06 pm

It could have been great to roll imortant updates for all existing cameras at the same time AND show off the new features for their cameras at the NAB booth along with the new cameras. Might have been quite the BMD love fest.

Missed opportunity -- :?: :?:
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joechiazza

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 5:07 pm

cmoore wrote:It could have been great to roll imortant updates for all existing cameras at the same time AND show off the new features for their cameras at the NAB booth along with the new cameras. Might have been quite the BMD love fest.

Missed opportunity -- :?: :?:

You mean exactly what Sony did???? haha..yeah.
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emdy

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 5:08 pm

cmoore wrote:It could have been great to roll imortant updates for all existing cameras at the same time AND show off the new features for their cameras at the NAB booth along with the new cameras. Might have been quite the BMD love fest.

Missed opportunity -- :?: :?:



I question if that was even an option at the time. They did the same thing last year, announcing new products with flaws that are yet to be addressed. The only issue is the price dropped.
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Dastrupmakes

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 5:32 pm

Thing is, people (like me) are only in love with the image, not the company itself and not even the cameras. So as soon as someone makes a real competing camera (with a similar image) people are going to abandon this company and they will sink fast. I want to like them but with all the delays and missed promises I just can't...
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jeremyhyler

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 5:33 pm

Man this company is blowing hard right now.
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ClaytonMoore

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 6:11 pm

It can as be a matter of degrees. If an update is still forthcoming what would it be? BMD IS on the record as saying something cool for the BMCC is coming right. All they need do is say, for reasons we can not discuss right now its been delayed but we should have it by _______.

If the reasons for a delay are waiting for _____ that may be very exciting that's ok. They would redeem themselves to some degree to be sure. It would however depend on what "it" was.

If they simply changed their mind, and decided to walk away from it, that would be something risky from a brand point of view.

BUT think about folks the BMCC, BMPCC, and BMCC 4k are all still for sale and not discontinued..... yet are not fully matured in features yet. So somethings got to give here. The fact is many people bought these cameras based on what they saw - so far - and assumed some basic, but important feature were forthcoming.

Watch the retail channel .... If B&H suddenly had "no longer available" next to any of the earlier cameras, then Id be afraid that it was over in that regard.
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bruce

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 7:15 pm

Agree hold order until current camera are fix
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Samjack

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 8:16 pm

Totally agree. Don't buy any of their product untill they do something useful for the 3 existing cameras.
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Sean Hegarty

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 9:18 pm

+1
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Scott Stacy

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 9:25 pm

I am disappointed in this cutting edge company. These kinds of practices eventually are the downfall of corporations. History is replete with examples - seems silly for BMD to not attend to history. I actually love my 4K camera and I apparently got a good one. However, neglect of the other cameras when there are clearly some problems and some promises made is troubling to me.
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Jules Bushell

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 9:26 pm

I don't agree. I buy what I can afford and BMD cameras are the cheapest for what I need. Resolve is fantastic.

Other companies have to step up to the plate and be more cost affective. Sadly so far this NAB hasn't seen any breakthroughs yet at prices I can afford.

Jules
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 9:28 pm

somebody mentioned the "osborne effect" around here recently...
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Jules Bushell

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 9:29 pm

Scott Stacy wrote:I am disappointed in this cutting edge company. These kinds of practices eventually are the downfall of corporations. History is replete with examples - seems silly for BMD to not attend to history. I actually love my 4K camera and I apparently got a good one. However, neglect of the other cameras when there are clearly some problems and some promises made is troubling to me.

Again, competition is what drives companies to change as they see dwindling returns on research and investment.

Sadly this NAB has so far shown the lack of innovation from the major camera companies.

Jules
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Tom Sefton

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 9:35 pm

joechiazza wrote:
NYCcomposer wrote:Right on.

To not even be able to give INFORMATION about the firmware is ridiculous.

I think a lot of people are furious today, and with good reason.

+1 Very very upset and disappointed. I kind of held them up in my list of favorite companies right there with Apple. If Apple ever pulled something like this on my I might end up killing myself.


Don't kill yourself.

And, no, I don't agree.
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Iain Philpott

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 9:48 pm

I have to say that to announce several new cameras when you haven't even sorted out (or delivered) your existing cameras is a smack in the mouth for all your existing customers. I think the principle of the URSA camera is great but yet again I question some of the design implications. So the 10" is too large for handheld + whats the battery consumption? If it's on the shoulder the AC can't see any details on the 5" camera function/data screen?

I agree with the 1st post….please do not sign up for this camera re a deposit until we know more about what's happening with the existing camera problems. I feel customer satisfaction as a mission statement is right at the bottom of the list right now. I feel totally shafted.
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arknox

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 9:50 pm

I've not bought a Blackmagic camera but been following the saga since the original EF BMCC announcement at NAB. I feel for all the BMCC owners out there, especially people who pre-ordered from day one at NAB 2012 to then receive their cameras a year later, then within weeks of receiving, endure a $1000 drop in value... Let's then add to that the fact that the original features stipulated have not be delivered and Blackmagic blindly go on churning new models out, making more promises they don't keep. Blackmagic need to wake up before it's too late. The negative reputation they are building for themselves will not be limited to just their camera division.

I've had the BMCC and the BMPCC in the shopping cart ready to buy a few times but never made that last click due to reading the pain that people on this forum have had to endure over the last 2 years. From Blackmagic's announcements today I've seen enough to call it a day on BM. I'm glad I never made that last click and I'm now done with this saga. I know I'm small change to a company like Blackmagic but I won't be the only one who feels this way...
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Iain Philpott

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 9:57 pm

arknox wrote:I've not bought a Blackmagic camera but been following the saga since the original EF BMCC announcement at NAB. I feel for all the BMCC owners out there, especially people who pre-ordered from day one at NAB 2012 to then receive their cameras a year later, then within weeks of receiving, endure a $1000 drop in value... Let's then add to that the fact that the original features stipulated have not be delivered and Blackmagic blindly go on churning new models out, making more promises they don't keep. Blackmagic need to wake up before it's too late. The negative reputation they are building for themselves will not be limited to just their camera division.

I've had the BMCC and the BMPCC in the shopping cart ready to buy a few times but never made that last click due to reading the pain that people on this forum have had to endure over the last 2 years. From Blackmagic's announcements today I've seen enough to call it a day on BM. I'm glad I never made that last click and I'm now done with this saga. I know I'm small change to a company like Blackmagic but I won't be the only one who feels this way...


Totally agree with you. Our only difference, I purchased!
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Iain Philpott

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 10:18 pm

So it appears that the Cinema 5D two URSA threads have been taken down? Of al the NAB announcements there is now no mention of this new camera on the forum?

Johnnie from Cinema5D has just pointed out to me it's not been closed - just moved, to here…..
http://www.cinema5d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129061

Apologies!
Last edited by Iain Philpott on Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hijodeibn

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 10:24 pm

arknox wrote:I've not bought a Blackmagic camera but been following the saga since the original EF BMCC announcement at NAB. I feel for all the BMCC owners out there, especially people who pre-ordered from day one at NAB 2012 to then receive their cameras a year later, then within weeks of receiving, endure a $1000 drop in value... Let's then add to that the fact that the original features stipulated have not be delivered and Blackmagic blindly go on churning new models out, making more promises they don't keep. Blackmagic need to wake up before it's too late. The negative reputation they are building for themselves will not be limited to just their camera division.

I've had the BMCC and the BMPCC in the shopping cart ready to buy a few times but never made that last click due to reading the pain that people on this forum have had to endure over the last 2 years. From Blackmagic's announcements today I've seen enough to call it a day on BM. I'm glad I never made that last click and I'm now done with this saga. I know I'm small change to a company like Blackmagic but I won't be the only one who feels this way...


I have also been following the saga since the beginning, and I deeply feel the pain of the current cinema camera customers, I was also going to buy this camera for a short and finally choose to go with a BT RED ONE, I am so happy I took that route, I did my short and no issues at all with the camera, all in 4K and also I have slow-motion, now I need a B-cam, and I was thinking in the 2.5K MFT, but no way I am going to the hell people is going here, unfortunately budget for a B-cam is always short, I was really expecting a firmware upgrade……continue waiting I guess, if just the GH4 had a more cinematic picture…...
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emdy

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 10:33 pm

Jules Bushell wrote:I don't agree. I buy what I can afford and BMD cameras are the cheapest for what I need. Resolve is fantastic.

Other companies have to step up to the plate and be more cost affective. Sadly so far this NAB hasn't seen any breakthroughs yet at prices I can afford.

Jules


Jules, in some way you have a point and here's why. They have a great concept to integrate their workflow seamlessly, so you can edit directly from camera and/or use some other accessories that are compatible with their cameras. So far this works well (for the most part). You get 4K for under 4K and 2.5K for under 2K.

You also have to understand that every manufacturer has the responsibility to deliver on their promises. I can not manufacture a camera, but I can understand the extensive process required to take any product from concept to realization, which makes it even more daring for the average Joe, however, what good does it do me if I'm sold on a 4K camera on which I cannot PROPERLY record 4K?

I think at this point, you should compare BMD to manufacturers like APPLE who manufacture products for the entire world, do you get the same problems with your apple products? I have used 4 BMD cameras and all 4 have had to be sent in for repairs, I'm not talking about firmware updates.

Competition or no competition, we spend money to keep BMD in business hence why we ought so start asking questions about the future of the company or our investments.

If URSA is the way to go, what's the future for current camera owners? What do you do when you are stuck with tens of thousands of dollars wort equipment you cannot upgrade or even use?
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Davi Silveira

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 11:20 pm

I only hope some of you here on this forum are at NAB, (I couldn't make it this year) because if they get an enormous amount of "productive" feed back from existing customers face-to-face they may just realize how much reputation they are losing.
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Iain Philpott

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 11:30 pm

Jules[/quote]

If URSA is the way to go, what's the future for current camera owners? What do you do when you are stuck with tens of thousands of dollars wort equipment you cannot upgrade or even use?[/quote]

Totally agree. BM need to come out with a statement of intent regarding a firmware update for existing owners, for example, re audio meters and in-camera formatting of media cards.

Right now, as of BM announcements today, existing camera owner customers feel shafted. How difficult is it to come out with a statement. Either you are going to sort these problems or not? And if your not that's fine, I'll be buying the AJA then, simple.
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BoyWithCamera

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 12:57 am

Don't buy any of their product untill they do something useful for the 3 existing cameras.


couldn't agree more, their current firmware blows !


So this camera basically does what the RED One did 6 years ago but with a fancy built in screen.
Not a bad move from BM considering the price but they have a tendency to cripple their cameras with shocking firmware....I wonder if you will be able to format memory cards in camera with the URSA :lol: :lol:
a privilege that is still devoid on the BMPCC and all other BM camera types....at least the URSA has audio levels and what seems like a histogram/ waveform exposure option.
All in all a great step forward.....but if they are as slack with firmware fixes on the URSA as they are with their previous cameras....then serious filmmakers will be moving away from this baby very quickly.
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Scott Stacy

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 1:26 am

Jules Bushell wrote:
Scott Stacy wrote:I am disappointed in this cutting edge company. These kinds of practices eventually are the downfall of corporations. History is replete with examples - seems silly for BMD to not attend to history. I actually love my 4K camera and I apparently got a good one. However, neglect of the other cameras when there are clearly some problems and some promises made is troubling to me.

Again, competition is what drives companies to change as they see dwindling returns on research and investment.

Sadly this NAB has so far shown the lack of innovation from the major camera companies.

Jules


Yeah … I do not understand this at all. Puzzling.
Scott Stacy, C.S.I.
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shanepeters@bellsouth.net

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Re: HOLD OFF ON PRE-ORDERS ON NEW CAMERAS

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 1:42 am

Jules Bushell wrote:
Scott Stacy wrote:I am disappointed in this cutting edge company. These kinds of practices eventually are the downfall of corporations. History is replete with examples - seems silly for BMD to not attend to history. I actually love my 4K camera and I apparently got a good one. However, neglect of the other cameras when there are clearly some problems and some promises made is troubling to me.

Again, competition is what drives companies to change as they see dwindling returns on research and investment.

Sadly this NAB has so far shown the lack of innovation from the major camera companies.

Jules


I would disagree with that...the AJA, the new DJI ronin gimbal, the sony a7s....many exciting products screaming to us that 4k is the new flavor to embrace.

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