Ursa with BMCC sensor.

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Richard Oakes

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Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 3:49 pm

Just hypothetical, but could a 2.5k BMCC sensor on the URSA enable high frame rates with the BMCC 13 stop image. I'm not fussed on the 4k 12stop sensor. But would but an ursa if they made that an option!
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Tom

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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 3:50 pm

I agree, a BMCC sensor (with HFR if possible) would be fantastic.

As great as Global shutter and 4k is, I still prefer the BMCC look - would love to see it on the Ursa.
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 3:55 pm

I'm with you guys, but unfortunately the sensor even in its original specs doesn't do HFR.

What I'm confused about / find weird though is this regarding the URSA: for all we know they are using the same CMV12000 sensor as in the current 4K production camera. The sensor goes up to 300fps in 10bit mode or 180fps in 12bit mode. I totally get that the "base" in the 4K production cam doesn't do the necessary processing and doesn't have the bandwith needed.
But the URSA is supposed to have all that power/bandwith... yet they are stating that with the current sensor module it will only go up to 60fps - stating that "when faster sensors are available you could upgrade" - which doesn't make any sense to me if they are using the CMV12000 (as is the AJA cam and the Apertus open source cam) that could at least do 180fps with the right bandwith/bus.

Any thoughts on that?
Last edited by Soeren Mueller on Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DavidJames

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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 3:57 pm

Excellent idea....love the BMCC sensor
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 3:57 pm

This is the entire concept of URSA. Not just the 2.5K ACtive-MFT High Frame Rate drop in sensor block potential that it poses, but V2.0 of the 4K Sensor that has more DR and higher frame rates.

CFast, water-cooled, body weight and size... it may not make sense now... when you can get a 6K upgrade for less the price of a new 2.5K Camera and keep all of your accessories etc., it will.

JB said elsewhere that he would like to see the 2.5K Sensor HFR activated in the camera next. I am one hundred percent behind him. 2.5K, ACtive MFT, High Frame Rate, optimized sensor block should be the next and immediate addition to this camera.

As soon as it's released and the first person does a demo video of a sensor block swap in the back seat of their car... people will understand what's going on.
Last edited by Kholi Hicks on Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 3:57 pm

Soeren Mueller wrote:I'm with you guys, but unfortunately the sensor even in its original specs doesn't do HFR.

What I'm confused about / find weird though is this regarding the URSA: for all we know they are using the same CMV12000 sensor as in the current 4K production camera. The sensor goes up to 300fps in 10bit mode or 180fps in 12bit mode. I totally get that the "base" in the 4K production cam doesn't do the necessary processing and doesn't have the bandwith needed.
But the URSA is supposed to have all that power/bandwith... yet they are stating that with the current sensor module it will only go up to 60fps - stating that "when faster sensors are available you could upgrade" - which doesn't make any sense to me if they are using the CMV12000 (as is the AJA cam and the Apertus open source cam).
Any thoughts on that?


The 2.5K sensor will do high frame rates, absolutely. It's a hardware limitation on the other cameras.

Not sure about the current 4K sensor, Cion will only do the 120FPS @ 4K out to a proprietary format or something like that, so there may be an indicator there of what's going on.
Last edited by Kholi Hicks on Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mark de Jeu

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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 3:59 pm

Kholi wrote:JB said elsewhere that he would like to see the 2.5K Sensor HFR activated in the camera next. I am one hundred percent behind him. 2.5K, ACtive MFT, High Frame Rate, optimized sensor block should be the next and immediate addition to this camera.
+1
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:02 pm

Kholi wrote:... V2.0 of the 4K Sensor that has more DR and higher frame rates.


Technically I think the current crop of the CMV12000 is already "V2" or even "V3", the first version had much worse FPN problems - got that info end of last year when I spoke with several industrial camera vendors.
And if you look at the latest Apertus project blog posting the current CMV12000 already has more DR potential which can be unlocked, I would be very curious as to why BM chose to not do that though.

And up to 180 or even 300 fps seems to be "high" to me... what would be the technical reason to not use it?

If both of those questions can be technically explained I would be eager to hear it... but when it would be something more along the lines of "we didn't have the manpower/time to really look into this" then sorry.. I'd rather wait for a better engineered camera or sensor block! *sigh*
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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:06 pm

Kholi wrote:The 2.5K sensor will do high frame rates, absolutely. It's a hardware limitation on the other cameras.


Fair enough, I have to recheck the specs... long time ago that I looked into it - I even spoke to one of the engineering companies behind it here in Germany, if I remember correctly they said something that 100fps would be about the max you could get out of the current version.. (afaik)

Kholi wrote:Not sure about the current 4K sensor, Cion will only do the 120FPS @ 4K out to a proprietary format or something like that, so there may be an indicator there of what's going on.


But that's exactly what I mean - if that would be true then it would mean that it's not the sensor thats the limiting factor but something "behind it"... but they are advertising the URSA as being super duper future proof and upgradeable... yet at first it does only do 60fps with a sensor capable of 180fps... strange, right?

Of course it could also very well be the recording medium thats the limiting factor.. but why not say so.. that's exactly the kind of "inaccuracy" that currently gets so many peoples blood boiling. :(
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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:15 pm

I don't know exactly why either, maybe we can get a comment on it.

It very well may be the current spec of the cards that prohibits the speed, since AJA needs to go out to an untold format to get it. If it were, that kinda means eventually the card speed will catch up or you could maybe use the two slots together to achieve the framerate.

When NAB is over, I hope we can get a lot of questions answered about the camera.

I'm going tomorrow (ugh... that drive) and taking my pocket camera, I doubt any of the guys on the floor would have answers to these things but we'll see.

I have a TON of questions, some of which were answered already though.
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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:17 pm

For the record, Soeren, I'm not disagreeing with you about waiting for a new block, although I pre-ordered (non-refundable) and picked up a number one spot at a retailer.

I still believe ,and have said, the real camera release is the first sensor block release.
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:19 pm

Kholi wrote:I'm going tomorrow (ugh... that drive) and taking my pocket camera, I doubt any of the guys on the floor would have answers to these things but we'll see.


I would expect the cards as well. So it more so depends on the interface, but if what JB posted is true it may very well have to necesarry overhead, which would be very nice. And if the "first gen" (current) 4K sensor block would be maxed out by them to allow for at least 100fps at some point that would be very sweet.
Good luck @ NAB.. yeah usually the "drones" on the floor aren't really helpful that much regarding technical details ;)
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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:21 pm

Soeren Mueller wrote:
Kholi wrote:I'm going tomorrow (ugh... that drive) and taking my pocket camera, I doubt any of the guys on the floor would have answers to these things but we'll see.


I would expect the cards as well. So it more so depends on the interface, but if what JB posted is true it may very well have to necesarry overhead, which would be very nice. And if the "first gen" (current) 4K sensor block would be maxed out by them to allow for at least 100fps at some point that would be very sweet.
Good luck @ NAB.. yeah usually the "drones" on the floor aren't really helpful that much regarding technical details ;)


JB is definitely right... the camera body doesn't weigh that of a small child for nothing... the idea that you could have made your money back on the initial investment by the time 6K sensors roll around, and you literally just plug-and-play is what RED pitched way back when.

IT's what RED is doing now, only much more expensive (with good reason, Dragon sensor is nothing to sneeze at, and of course as people here would point out the Customer Service -- even though RED owners can tell you stories about that).
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:25 pm

Kholi wrote:For the record, Soeren, I'm not disagreeing with you about waiting for a new block, although I pre-ordered (non-refundable) and picked up a number one spot at a retailer.

I still believe ,and have said, the real camera release is the first sensor block release.


+1 ... and don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with what BM offers... have all the cams.. just the whole 4K thing was a little bit of a fiasco. I bet I'm not the only one who would have waited (I just received my 4K a month ago) if we had suspected a "better, 'fixed' 4K" to be so close to release.

I totally don't expect it to happen but it would be very nice to have a trade-in program for people who have just received the 4K and/or a plagued by severe FPN/bad pixels and would like to "upgrade" to the URSA to get one for the price difference only or something similar.
But if these problems will be successfully fixed via firmware then fine...

PS: I noticed "AJA RAW" for HFR as well.. curious about the details...
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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:31 pm

Kholi wrote:JB is definitely right... the camera body doesn't weigh that of a small child for nothing... the idea that you could have made your money back on the initial investment by the time 6K sensors roll around, and you literally just plug-and-play is what RED pitched way back when.


Absolutely - if they get that working, then all my hats off to them!
Although I honestly really grew to love the current BM form factor for corporate and "small scale" work. It just means less hassle in some situations, faster working speed / more lightweight camera support etc.

Kholi wrote:IT's what RED is doing now, only much more expensive (with good reason, Dragon sensor is nothing to sneeze at, and of course as people here would point out the Customer Service -- even though RED owners can tell you stories about that).


Yeah experienced enough of that first hand, shooting with RED since the first versions end of '07 / beginning of '08... really don't want to think about the situations on tight schedule when the camera suddenly froze/crashed.. all the times we anxiously waited for it to finish booting up again to see if the last takes were recorded completely/intact.. gray hair galore.. jeez
Last edited by Soeren Mueller on Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:32 pm

Soeren Mueller wrote:
Kholi wrote:For the record, Soeren, I'm not disagreeing with you about waiting for a new block, although I pre-ordered (non-refundable) and picked up a number one spot at a retailer.

I still believe ,and have said, the real camera release is the first sensor block release.


+1 ... and don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with what BM offers... have all the cams.. just the whole 4K thing was a little bit of a fiasco. I bet I'm not the only one who would have waited (I just received my 4K a month ago) if we had suspected a "better, 'fixed' 4K" to be so close to release.

I totally don't expect it to happen but it would be very nice to have a trade-in program for people who have just received the 4K and/or a plagued by severe FPN/bad pixels and would like to "upgrade" to the URSA to get one for the price difference only or something similar.
But if these problems will be successfully fixed via firmware then fine...

PS: I noticed "AJA RAW" for HFR as well.. curious about the details...


I think a small and reasonable credit for URSA is awesome, and those that may have purchased within a certain period of time the 4K camera, they can send their cameras back for a credit toward URSA. I don't have any authority over things like that, but it sounds like a good idea.

BMD might be wild, they'll find a way to make the obvious issues that they can fix right, like the FPN on the 4K camera. Right now they're likely just rolling out things they had planned a very long time ago. If you look at their ATEM release history, it's all pretty deliberate.

RE: AJA... I expect that camera to be very proprietary outside of ProRes, which I will say it's neat that they gave all flavors of ProRes.

Captain Hook found some information that's unclear about the camera being linear only:

(Thanks for the info Hook, I caught up this morning xD)

I think that's a pretty big deal and something that should be discussed in detail.
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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:33 pm

Soeren Mueller wrote:
Yeah experienced enough of that first hand, shooting with RED since the first versions end of '07 / beginning of '08... really don't want to think about the situations on tight schedule when the camera suddenly froze/crashed.. all the times we anxiously waited for it to finish booting up again to see if the last takes were recorded completely/intact.. gray hair galore.. jeez


How about those freezes in the middle of a good take, reboot scares, and half of the footage coming up as nothing but a green block?

THAT was a scary camera to use, but we still used it because there was nothing else at that price that gave up that quality.

I still have problems with EPIC... when I actually have to use it. Entire shooting day saw the right half of the image shifted down TWO pixels, not something very easily noticed until you get into post and a models nose shifts downward as she moves right to left.
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Re: Ursa with BMCC sensor.

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 4:43 pm

Kholi wrote:How about those freezes in the middle of a good take, reboot scares, and half of the footage coming up as nothing but a green block?

THAT was a scary camera to use, but we still used it because there was nothing else at that price that gave up that quality.


Haha.. absolutely.. oh gosh, I don't want to remember, really... sometimes everything was fine and we shared a sigh of relief but sometimes it was green and/or scrambled blockyness galore or other errors.. esp tough on those commercial shoots when you had clients breathing down your neck.
So compared to that my BM experience until now was a walk in the park, thats true ;)

Kholi wrote:I still have problems with EPIC... when I actually have to use it. Entire shooting day saw the right half of the image shifted down TWO pixels, not something very easily noticed until you get into post and a models nose shifts downward as she moves right to left.


Thankfully I was spared the pleasure of this defect/bug yet... although some of the rental OneMX/Epic/Scarlet over here in Germany are quite beat up to say the least... always needed to plan for at least a few hours of testing before you "go live".

Regarding AJA and linear.. that's quite interesting. The raw sensor data itself without fiddling with any of CMOSIS' "DR enhancing techniques" (knee like curves) is quite linear. So maybe they are more or less keeping that original data without applying a lot of lin/log conversions, color science etc pp... of course they have to do some of that.
Maybe log just doesn't make much sense with the CMOSIS "out of the box"... but I'm still fascinated by the findings of the Apertus guys regarding the sensors DR enhancement possibilities.
I wish these companies all would be a little more transparent in regard to what they do to the image. Of course the secrecy is partly understandable, on the other hand they now all seem to share the same CMOSIS chip so it's not like they designed their own super secret spaceship.

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