Thanks For the Update Kristian

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Eugene Carter

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Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 5:16 pm

I just wanted to say thanks for the sticky on the progress and clarification on updates. I hope this kind of communication is what we can expect in the future. I look forward to the upcoming firmware updates.

I do think that you need to do the same for the 4K as well. The FPN problem needs to be acknowledged and your customers need to be made aware of your plans to fix this issue.
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sean mclennan

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 5:33 pm

Yes, great post. Thanks Kristian

If you had only been allowed to post this the morning of the press release.... :oops:
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 5:34 pm

I also appreciate the "heads up" to the firmware situation, and the insights that might help some folks accept the repeated delays.

Eugene C. wrote: The FPN problem needs to be acknowledged and your customers need to be made aware of your plans to fix this issue.

The same goes for the "purple grid" (or magenta pattern) on the pocket camera. Five months ago someone from BMD aknowledged BMD was aware of the problem - but a little "we still know about it" would help.
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 5:36 pm

Mac Jaeger wrote:I also appreciate the "heads up" to the firmware situation, and the insights that might help some folks accept the repeated delays.

Eugene C. wrote: The FPN problem needs to be acknowledged and your customers need to be made aware of your plans to fix this issue.

The same goes for the "purple grid" (or magenta pattern) on the pocket camera. Five months ago someone from BMD aknowledged BMD was aware of the problem - but a little "we still know about it" would help.


Some sensors or cameras just have quirks... the grid problem may not be a processing issue at all, just the way the camera handles extreme flares combined with underexposure. I could probably name something similar on every camera I've ever used.

FPN is a different kind of issue, as would be the blackspots.
Kholi Hicks
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brent k

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 5:44 pm

The fact that they keep saying there are cameras that don't have the FPN, means they need to do a recall on the BM4K. The problem is that they need every "good sensor" for the URSA production.
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David Chapman

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 5:48 pm

Wanted to chime in and thank Kristian. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm sure a post like this on Monday would have alleviated much confusion/frustration. I feel relieved to see this post now. I still love BMD and love my cameras. Thanks for all your hard work.
David Chapman
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:00 pm

I don't think a recall is necessary at all:

1. Add Blackshading to the cameras if possible
2. Create something for Resolve (since it's included with the camera) that deals with Blackshading.
Kholi Hicks
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Margus Voll

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:04 pm

Thanks!

I always love the personal reach in forum posts.
Really appreciate it!
Margus Voll, C.S.I.

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LoganStewartDP

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:13 pm

Thanks Kristian! Sorry for butchering what you told me at the show, glad you could tell it in your own words :D
Logan Stewart DP
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Vince Gaffney

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:16 pm

Thanks for the heads up Kristian.
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Richard Oakes

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:23 pm

At last, Thank you Kristian!! could this type of communication continue? I believe Blackmagic Design would have a much more appreciative consumer base if it was I'm glad these updates are on the horizon. Tho a little disappointed by the black hole sun information. formatting media doesn't bother me at all as I never formatted media on my DSLR either before I bought the BMCC, I just wipe it when I offload to my computer. Time remaining, audio levels, better debayering, auto focus and histogram are all welcome additions. no mention of the orange reds tho, if this could be addressed it would be great, but if that changed the whole look of the image I might want to stick as is.

Thanks again!
we moan a lot because we want BMD to be the company they say they are. Empowering the people!
After 3 years of stone walling the customers it should be evident that this is not a good strategy. People respond well to good communication and honesty. I'm over the moon with the image in my BMCC and I would have no problem being loyal to BMD for future cameras, but something has to give in the communication department. I'm praying that this NAB reaction is the straw that broke the camels back in their stone wall policy BMD have insisted Upon and I hope your announcement is the beginning of a new leaf!
Richard Oakes.
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Margus Voll

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:27 pm

orange red is prores thing i think ?
Margus Voll, C.S.I.

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Oscar Romero

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:33 pm

Thank you Kristian! That's the way should communication with clients be. Now I'm desperate waiting the new update!
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Oscar Romero

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:34 pm

Margus Voll wrote:orange red is prores thing i think ?


I'm having the same problem with DNXHD but...maybe...?! Actually a very easy fix in Resolve so for me this is not a very important update, anyway if they can fix it they'll make many users happy.
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David Sandberg

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:45 pm

Wanted to say thank you as well.
I thought it was annoying when the pocket camera got a fix for the black sun and not the BMCC, but reading that explanation I fully understand why it hasn't happened.
So yeah, please keep us updated and I know that at least I will be a happier customer.
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brent k

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:50 pm

Kholi wrote:I don't think a recall is necessary at all:

1. Add Blackshading to the cameras if possible
2. Create something for Resolve (since it's included with the camera) that deals with Blackshading.
A recall is necessary. If they keep claiming what they are selling is a working product without FPN, then they need to recall certain serial numbered cameras. They need to publicly acknowledge, and warm potential customers about the FPN.
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Darren Scott

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 6:53 pm

Good to see some movement on the 2.5k camera front. Its very much appreciated. One question though...is compressed RAW apart of the future plan for the BMCC? Grant had said it was coming in an interview some months back however I do not know if that is confirmed. It would be great to have some info on that.
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speculator

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 7:00 pm

Their Black Sun update doesn't mention the BMPC4k. Wonder if they'll clarify whether the circuitry is in place to fix those global shutter sensors.
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Maarten Butter

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 7:30 pm

Like the update. Real info, thanks.

Darren Scott wrote:Good to see some movement on the 2.5k camera front. Its very much appreciated. One question though...is compressed RAW apart of the future plan for the BMCC? Grant had said it was coming in an interview some months back however I do not know if that is confirmed. It would be great to have some info on that.


I would love compressed RAW on the BMCC too.
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shanepeters@bellsouth.net

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 7:41 pm

Margus Voll wrote:orange red is prores thing i think ?



can anyone verify this? are your reds looking orange in DNxHD video mode?
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Martin Myrick

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 7:48 pm

It would be really nice if the improved support of M4/3 lenses includes Mega O.I.S. on the non-switchable lenses.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 8:04 pm

Kristian Lam wrote on April 10, 2014:

==========
Hi,

I know there are some concerns that we are no longer supporting the Blackmagic Cinema Camera or Pocket Cinema Camera. I just want to assure you that this is not the case.

Let me give you some background information about the development and why it is taking longer than expected.

The Blackmagic Cinema Camera was our very first foray into cameras and since then, we have shipped 3 more cameras, the Pocket Cinema Camera, Production 4K and the Studio Camera.

The original 2.5K camera had fundamental architectural differences in firmware compared to the other cameras which doubled the effort when trying to do any bug fixes or add new features to the cameras. As such, we knew we had to re-architect the firmware so as to bring it up to speed with the current cameras. This is not simple and taking longer than we thought. However, we are close now, close enough that beta versions have been seeded to some users for the past few months.

We should be able to see an update, as I'd mentioned in my post, to the 2.5K camera and Pocket Cinema Camera soon with the features below:

1. New debayering for shooting directly to ProRes or DNxHD on the Blackmagic Cinema Camera EF and MFT

2. Improved MFT lens support on the Pocket Cinema Camera

3. Compressed RAW support on the Production Camera 4K

4. Autofocus support for EF lenses on Blackmagic Cinema Camera EF and Production Camera 4K

What is also in this release are also certain hooks that are required for audio level metering and histogram display. It won't be visible as yet but will allow us to quickly followup with an update to add these 2 tools we know you guys are asking for.

Let me also answer some other questions I've been asked below:

• Formatting of media

Yes, we want to do this. A large part of the work has been completed so I don't believe this will be a big effort to implement. However, it is very unlikely that we will support deleting of clips directly in camera due to the risk of media fragmentation.

• Time Remaining indicator

Yes, this is going to happen. It's probably in the next update or an update after.

• Black Sun effect

This is a fundamental characteristic of CMOS sensors. Some sensors have additional circuitry to try and overcome this and this was available in the Pocket Cinema Camera. Unfortunately, it is not in the 2.5K sensor. Also, black sun correct circuitry is also not an on/off switch and with some sensors, it may result in other unwanted artefacts so we have to be really careful about it. Another method of overcoming the black sun effect is via image processing after the image has been acquired and passed on from the sensor. This is basically running an algorithm to try and detect what looks like the black sun and just clipping the black areas. Again, this could result in false positives and if you have a pattern in the image that is similar to the black sun, it could mistakenly be "corrected" as well. As you can see, this is a tricky situation. We are not ignoring it, but working to see what is the best way to address this.

I hope this gives you more information about what we're currently up to. I'm tempted to keep this thread locked as it tends to go off topic but I'll leave it open for now. Please try and keep on topic.

Thanks
==========

-

Thanks very much for the communication, Kristian. Communication is good. Of course, I'd prefer greater specificity, especially a drop-dead date by which BMD plans to deliver the next firmware update -- one that actually benefits current camera owners & users (as described above).

It's a bit disconcerting that you don't even mention some critical bugs in the current cameras, such as the BMCC's audio frequency/quality issue (broken after FW1.2), or the FPN issue reported by many BMPC-4K users, etc.

As a BMPC-4K owner I'm concerned by your description of the "black sun" (actually magenta) artifact which can occur on overexposed highlights. At least with the BMCC, anything that is overly-clipped could be converted to pure white and it will "look" fine (highlights are white anyway).

But the BMPC-4K's black-ish/magenta-ish clipping is another mater. What happens to real magenta-colored objects that are actually in the scene? Do they get converted to white, or will BMD will handle it in such a way that this won't be an issue? As you say, depending how this issue is handled, the result could be undesirable, such as a decrease in dynamic range, etc.

I believe it was suggested by someone else that perhaps the BMCC and BMPC-4K might gain an additional menu item (a user pref) to allow switching between a "normal" recording mode (e.g.: the same as the cams work now in regards to black/magenta sun), and a "safe" recording mode (e.g.: converts extreme clipped highlights to white, but with slightly reduced overall DR). This way the user could choose a recording mode appropriate for a scene before recording begins. Not an ideal solution, but just a suggestion.

Concerning audio: I realize many users never use a video camera's audio recording capability to record sound from external sources, but I'm one of the people who would greatly prefer to do this more often than not. I hate synching audio in post, and I prefer having audio and video assets in the same file (usually ProRes) so the audio can't get lost/misplaced over time. Point is, in-camera audio recording is important to me, so anything and everything BMD can do to improve this capability in their cams gets my vote. But that's just me, other users have different priorities.

Because BMD has been so incredibly slow, late, and tone deaf in addressing these (and other) issues, I can't say I'm happy about the situation. In the past I've cut you guys a lot of slack because you're new to the camera game, but my patience has worn very thin.

As they say in tennis, the ball is in BMD's court.

-
Last edited by Peter J. DeCrescenzo on Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 8:06 pm

Martin Myrick wrote:It would be really nice if the improved support of M4/3 lenses includes Mega O.I.S. on the non-switchable lenses.


Yes. We are doing some testing but I believe this will happen.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 8:11 pm

shanepeters@bellsouth.net wrote:
Margus Voll wrote:orange red is prores thing i think ?


can anyone verify this? are your reds looking orange in DNxHD video mode?


I'm fairly certain it's not restricted to BMD cameras recording ProRes. It occurs in both ProRes & DNxHD when a BMD cam is set to "Video" (quasi-Rec.709) recording mode. You can see it live on an external monitor, as well as in recordings.

And certainly it's not literally a ProRes or DNxHD issue. These professional codecs are capable of recording red beautifully, but rather it's how BMD has implemented their "Video" mode.

It also seems to vary depending on the BMD camera model, possibly due to the different sensors, or the in-cam debayering process used. For example, my BMPC-4K appears to render the color red much more accurately when in "Video" mode compared to BMCC "Video" footage I've seen.

But I could mistaken about any of the above.

-
http://www.peterdv.com
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Kyle Gordon

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 8:17 pm

Yes thank you this was VERY helpful.

Can you tell us about the audio frequency response?
Kyle Gordon
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Alex Krukov

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 8:23 pm

Kristian Lam wrote:
Martin Myrick wrote:It would be really nice if the improved support of M4/3 lenses includes Mega O.I.S. on the non-switchable lenses.


Yes. We are doing some testing but I believe this will happen.


Hello Kristian and engineer section of BMD team!
We hope that you will add support in next software upd for these lenses : Sigma 19mm 2.8 DN, 30mm 2,8 DN (don't work aperture). Such cheap lens will attract many new customers BMPCC and help me finish my movie). Really hoping for your team.
P. S. Please reply if this is not feasible. And yes we the owners of these lenses a lot - you have helped us! Here is one of the owners:
http://instagram.com/takegift me on instagram) see you there
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 8:31 pm

Alex Krukov wrote:We hope that you will add support in next software upd for these lenses : Sigma 19mm 2.8 DN, 30mm 2,8 DN (don't work aperture). Such cheap lens will attract many new customers BMPCC and help me finish my movie).


Hi

This will be part of the MFT improvements for the Pocket Cinema Camera update. :)
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Csaba Nagy

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 8:33 pm

Thanks so much for the update Kristian.

The only thing I could see missing ( was hoping for.) from the list of upcoming features/fixes is compressed Raw for the BMCC.

I don't think it was ever promised, but would be nice to have.
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Jason R. Johnston

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 8:48 pm

Zolac wrote:compressed Raw for the BMCC


That would be really awesome! :D

Thanks for the update, Kristian! I appreciate it.
Jason R. Johnston
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Alex Mitchell

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 8:59 pm

I'm really excited for the new firmware updates! Available record time, in camera formatting, histograms, and audio meters are all features I can't wait to use.
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Alex Krukov

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 9:12 pm

Kristian Lam wrote:
Alex Krukov wrote:We hope that you will add support in next software upd for these lenses : Sigma 19mm 2.8 DN, 30mm 2,8 DN (don't work aperture). Such cheap lens will attract many new customers BMPCC and help me finish my movie). /quote]

Hi

This will be part of the MFT improvements for the Pocket Cinema Camera update. :)


Thanks!) Very appreciate you and all Blackmagic team. I really hope that these lenses will finally works properly !
http://instagram.com/takegift me on instagram) see you there
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Tim Callaghan

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 11:08 pm

You FPN guys can wait in line...

Kristian, I've not seen anything mentioned about fixing the frequency response bug that's been introduced since v1.3 firmware. There were DC offset issues in v1.2 that were addressed, but the sound recorded in camera is just terrible. It's patchable by adding a very heavy EQ to the lows, but it's stretching the data and resulting in quality loss.

Appreciate the efforts and the new stance on communications, but this has been an issue for well over a year now. I'm a little concerned that it's not on your list of things your fixing.

Thanks.
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timbutt2

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 11:18 pm

Yes, I'd also like to thank Kristian for the update!
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

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Samir Iacovone

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 11:29 pm

What about FPN Kristian??? My 4k it's useless without a fix !! I don't see anything about this in your post...
Samir Iacovone

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chozen1one

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 2:04 am

Yes thank you for the update.
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Pascal

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 2:06 am

Yes, there are good news about the next updates but we mostly want to know the issue about the FPN. Because without it, the camera will stay useless...
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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 2:46 am

Thanks for the official post Kristian! Any word on better audio frequency response and better REC709 video mode reds? Are you working on this? Is it possible to fix these?
Thanks.
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Scott Stacy

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 5:34 am

Good news. Well executed and honest, straight forward, and reassuring. Thank you.
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Abe Loftis

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 5:38 am

Thank you Kristian!!! I love my Pocket as is but any additions would be amazing! Still waiting for an active mft 2.5k with 60P for an A cam. lol
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Christian Bille

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 6:59 am

Eugene C. wrote:The FPN problem needs to be acknowledged and your customers need to be made aware of your plans to fix this issue.


...instead of pulling up an old thread: Is the FPN issue the "same" as the hot pixel issue? I have several hundred "dots" on my images (when correctly exposed at 400/800 iso they show up in darker areas). At first I thought this was a hot pixel issue, but it seems to have transformed into a "fixed pattern noise" issue.
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Jayson Rahmlow

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 7:49 am

Thx for the update Kristian. It is nice to get an update, even if it's a repeat of a delayed update from six months ago ;) but it actually does feel good to know you guys are hearing us. And when you explain specifics like why the black hole sun is such a problem that makes it easier to accept.
Any word on the audio issues with the BMCC. I haven't heard anything about it being fixed and that's one of the two big fixes I've been waiting for. I don't like handing footage off to clients and explaining about boosting below 500mhz by 6-12db.
Also, I don't think the orange reds was mentioned. It's a russian roulette of a problem that luckily has only shot me twice. But I have a reshoot coming up with that same client that needs reds to be red, their product is all about color reproduction. And I had side by side shots of the product, images from the 5diii and video of the BMCC and I was asked to make them match. Now, I'm not an amazing colorist but I get by and making only red look red from BM's Rec.709 in a red-orange-pink sunset well, was as far as I could tell impossible. And I can't imagine it's as simple a fix as just applying a LUT in DaVinci or that LUT would be available by now. BM owns DaVinci Resolve. One of their color guys would have whipped up that LUT in two minutes and posted it. Or atleast I'd hope that'd be the case.
And is there any word on reduced moire in the new prores/dnxhd compression algorithm?
Jayson Rahmlow
Applejackfilms.com
Los Angeles
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Peter Kent

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 11:42 am

Samjack wrote:My special thanks goes to Andrew Reid of EOSHD for acting on behalf of all of us for pushing Blackmagic to respond with the firmware updates :lol:

Andrew if it werent for you we will never have got this updates. What a hero!


I hope you're being facetious, because if not I really think that isn't fair to the Blackmagic Dev team that have obviously been and continue to be working very hard here. As was pointed out, they weren't ignoring the issues they're just really hard fixes, I doubt a blogger had much to do with the work put into getting us this update.

BTW Kristian thanks for the in-depth heads up, that really is the best way to handle this situation and I'd like to second the "magenta grid" fix (which if I remember is processing because it doesn't show on the HDMI out).
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Andrew Reid

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Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 11:48 am

Unknown to you guys a separate conversation about the firmware update was going on between me and Patrick at Blackmagic UK who was over in NAB. I had for the past week been asking them to put something out to explain the situation.

Then Patrick yesterday emailed me the update as if it was a personal reply one to one about my previous email and it fitted like a glove.

I had not seen the same text go up on the forum and it may indeed be that Patrick just cut and pasted it from here and sent it me.

Not my intention to claim credit for something I didn't actually have a part in. Or maybe I did. More to the point I don't care. The important thing is the firmware updates are coming. A few of you could do with calming down on the personal mud flinging, especially over at BMCC user which I no longer view as a result.
British filmmaker and editor of EOSHD
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Rajiv Mudgal

  • Posts: 106
  • Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:03 am

Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 12:09 pm

Thats good to hear
Thanks Kristian
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8500260/
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NeillJones

  • Posts: 21
  • Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:49 pm
  • Location: England

Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 12:20 pm

So I take it this means that compressed Raw and 2.5K Prores/DNxHD are not going to come to the BMCC as I think has been mentioned by Grant Petty in previous communications. Would be nice to get a 4:3 mode as well, I'll keep hoping......and waiting.
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John Waldorff

  • Posts: 189
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:19 pm

Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 12:52 pm

Thank you BMD. Great news on this update. = )
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Martin Myrick

  • Posts: 36
  • Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 4:04 pm

Kristian, can you tell us if the Lumix 12-32mm will be supported in this update?
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Anthony Miles

  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:04 pm
  • Location: Gilbert, Arizona

Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 4:08 pm

Thanks for the recent level of communication Black Magic. I am seeing your info on the web ad that is a nice change.
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Darren Joy

  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:53 pm

Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 6:18 pm

Kristian,

That simple posting of the status update makes a *world* of difference to us owners of your products.

Compared with the absolute silence, it's like night and day. Probably stopped a lot of cameras being dumped too. Your future customers are made up in no small part from your existing ones.

Thank you for the update.

Please, convince whoever you need to, that a little bit of information, even if it's not the best news, is better than being ignored and kept in the dark. It makes *such* a difference to us, and to BM's image.
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Deborah S. Esquenazi

  • Posts: 15
  • Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:57 am

Re: Thanks For the Update Kristian

PostFri Apr 11, 2014 6:30 pm

Agreed----a simple update makes a world of difference.

Thanks for the update.
deborah s. esquenazi // austin, texas
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