URSA - 120+ FPS, Petition

Hey BMD!
First, thanks to all BMD people for what they do for us. You guys are heroes. Keep it on going.

Now, 60 FPS is not fast enough. You cannot lose to AJA's CION with the same sensor. With your double recording media ability, the writing speed is not problem anymore so please give us: 120 FPS or more. With this big cooling system of yours, you cannot talk about over-heating again.

People, add your support if you want that too.

Skyler

somehow...3 minutes capacity for $1200 doesn't appeal to me.

I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with HFR?

Don't get me wrong HFR is really cool when done well. It's really useful in research and development situations. Unless you are making a really annoying kung-fu movie in the rain* or shooting sporting events, I can't imagine ever using slow-mo as a narrative choice more than a second or two in a movie. And even then, I can rent a FS700 for a day.

If you are shooting Sporting events, I don't imagine the URSA would be the right camera for that situation.


I don't mean this post as an attack, but merely as an honest question; I don't understand the obsession?


*Annoying Kung-Fu movie reference: The Grandmaster - I love Kung-fu movies, even the cheesy ones. But the constant use of slo-mo and extreme close up slow-mo just made it too frustrating to watch. I couldn't finish it.

somehow...3 minutes capacity for $1200 doesn't appeal to me.

Negativity is not good for health. When you take your energy to formulate and express negative thoughts, you hurt yourself and people just want to avoid you. It is a rule of life. Negativity makes things impossible. As doers, cinematographers, off all people, should be positive. Only positivity makes things possible. There is always a positive aspect to something. It is just a matter a perspective. If you cannot afford, C.Fast 2.0 cards from day one of the URSA. Just wait for prices to come down. By doing so, its firmware would have the time to be improved and all . There is no rush. BMD is not forcing anyone to buy the URSA.

Personally, I am not smart enough to criticize BMD technology choices. They must know things I ignore. They are not stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot. Stupidity spells death in business and since they have been more successful than most of us who come here, it is safe to declare that they are smarter most of us. Let's show some respect and gratitude.

We all know how this thing is going to play out. Prices will come down. They always do. Everybody will be happy and the initial complainers will feel ridiculous if they are honest.
To finish, the price of medias is nothing when earning money with them. It is clear that the URSA is not for the same public than the previous cameras.

So nobody is interested in higher frame rates for the URSA, really?

I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with HFR?

Why color? Why HD? Why Full HD? Why stereo? Why 5.1? Why?

The answer is simple. Imagination is bigger than technology. This is why creative people will always seek more means to express their vision. Technology is a tool. A tool becomes something fantastic in capable hands. People who are seeing technology as an end will never create beauty. They do not even understand the underlying concept of it.

Creativity requires freedom, mental and technological, to be expressed. This is why creative people always want better tools.

I don't think it's an issue of people "not being interested." For some of the projects I would like to shoot, over-cranking would be VERY welcome, and renting a Phantom would be cost prohibitive.

To be quite frank, I am just weary of these "petitions" and "demands" put forth by customers, or worse potential customers to Blackmagic. They seem trivial and petty. I am very sure that BM is working as hard as they can to deliver the best products to us they can. They have hit some stumbling blocks and I am quite sure they are aware of them. I am VERY sure that marketing is acutely aware that AJA is trying to go to 120fps on the CION. I am sure the engineering team was aware of the "black clipping, and FPN" people are complaining about. BM is not ignorant to these issues.

Every day I come to this forum to learn about how people are creating art with these cameras, but every day we are inundated with people complaining about their cameras, re-hashing conversations day after day and week after week, and people making crazy demands of the company.

The CION is $3k more than the URSA. Perhaps BM made a decision to not add $3k to the cost of the camera and give us 60fps instead of 120. If so, then I support that decision. I am unaware of any shipping 4k cameras under $10k ready to shoot, that can shoot 120FPS. I'd like to see BM get a 60FPS camera into the market and successful before I start worrying about 120FPS.

So nobody is interested in higher frame rates for the URSA, really?

somehow...3 minutes capacity for $1200 doesn't appeal to me.

Negativity is not good for health. When you take your energy to formulate and express negative thoughts, you hurt yourself and people just want to avoid you. It is a rule of life. Negativity makes things impossible. As doers, cinematographers, off all people, should be positive. Only positivity makes things possible. There is always a positive aspect to something. It is just a matter a perspective. If you cannot afford, C.Fast 2.0 cards from day one of the URSA. Just wait for prices to come down. By doing so, its firmware would have the time to be improved and all . There is no rush. BMD is not forcing anyone to buy the URSA.

Personally, I am not smart enough to criticize BMD technology choices. They must know things I ignore. They are not stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot. Stupidity spells death in business and since they have been more successful than most of us who come here, it is safe to declare that they are smarter most of us. Let's show some respect and gratitude.

We all know how this thing is going to play out. Prices will come down. They always do. Everybody will be happy and the initial complainers will feel ridiculous if they are honest.
To finish, the price of medias is nothing when earning money with them. It is clear that the URSA is not for the same public than the previous cameras.

So nobody is interested in higher frame rates for the URSA, really?

How was that negative? LOL or do you just not like people having opinions that differ from yours?

3 minutes of storage is not efficient. The fact that the media costs $1200 currently, only exasperates the issue.

Buying a brand new camera platform (untested), with expensive and rare media that will significantly drop in price in 12-18 months, today. or July. On Launch. Comes down to two motivations:

A) you have more money than you care about and you WANT it.
B) you have clients with specific demands and you NEED it.

If you need 4K RAW today and want high fps, you could be buying an FS700.

So if you're not in a rush, then why are you not asking them to put that feature in the next camera, in 2015? Why ask them to change this camera, right now?

No ones ever satisfied. Everyone wants BM to make the cameras to their individual needs. Good luck with that

somehow...3 minutes capacity for $1200 doesn't appeal to me.

Negativity is not good for health. When you take your energy to formulate and express negative thoughts, you hurt yourself and people just want to avoid you. It is a rule of life. Negativity makes things impossible. As doers, cinematographers, off all people, should be positive. Only positivity makes things possible. There is always a positive aspect to something. It is just a matter a perspective. If you cannot afford, C.Fast 2.0 cards from day one of the URSA. Just wait for prices to come down. By doing so, its firmware would have the time to be improved and all . There is no rush. BMD is not forcing anyone to buy the URSA.

Personally, I am not smart enough to criticize BMD technology choices. They must know things I ignore. They are not stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot. Stupidity spells death in business and since they have been more successful than most of us who come here, it is safe to declare that they are smarter most of us. Let's show some respect and gratitude.

We all know how this thing is going to play out. Prices will come down. They always do. Everybody will be happy and the initial complainers will feel ridiculous if they are honest.
To finish, the price of medias is nothing when earning money with them. It is clear that the URSA is not for the same public than the previous cameras.

So nobody is interested in higher frame rates for the URSA, really?

How was that negative? LOL or do you just not like people having opinions that differ from yours?

3 minutes of storage is not efficient. The fact that the media costs $1200 currently, only exasperates the issue.

Buying a brand new camera platform (untested), with expensive and rare media that will significantly drop in price in 12-18 months, today. or July. On Launch. Comes down to two motivations:

A) you have more money than you care about and you WANT it.
B) you have clients with specific demands and you NEED it.

If you need 4K RAW today and want high fps, you could be buying an FS700.

So if you're not in a rush, then why are you not asking them to put that feature in the next camera, in 2015? Why ask them to change this camera, right now?

No ones ever satisfied. Everyone wants BM to make the cameras to their individual needs. Good luck with that

+1 and a nice retort to the patronising response from the OP.

somehow...3 minutes capacity for $1200 doesn't appeal to me.

Negativity is not good for health. When you take your energy to formulate and express negative thoughts, you hurt yourself and people just want to avoid you.

With all due respect, it's quite hard to say "3 minutes gonna cost me 1200 bucks" and express happiness at the same time, if you are not a millionaire or don't pay for the media.

As a mater of fact, just the idea of "3 minutes gonna cost me 1200 bucks" is actually bad for my health, since it raises my blood pressure to definitive unhealthy levels.

Maybe I should make myself a herbal tea, and talk about my feelings now - you know, those price tags on CFast cards are really bad for my camera FengShui.

Isn't this asking a little much? I mean you have to see all this more realistically.
Basically you are asking for a software-upgrade that on some cameras will cost about that what BMD is asking you to pay for the whole camera. To furthermore put it into perspective the currently listed price for an URSA-PL is about the same as my local rental house would charge you for a one week renal of an Arri Alexa Plus w.O. Lenses.

Sure it would be nice to have HFR but I personally don't see this as something critical, especially considering what is already offered, and how basic some other firmware problems are that still aren't completely solved. If HFR is that important to you, you might want to consider an FS700 if you just need it occasionally (as probably most people would do), you should rent a camera for when you need HFR capabilities.

I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with HFR?

Why color? Why HD? Why Full HD? Why stereo? Why 5.1? Why?

The answer is simple. Imagination is bigger than technology. This is why creative people will always seek more means to express their vision. Technology is a tool. A tool becomes something fantastic in capable hands. People who are seeing technology as an end will never create beauty. They do not even understand the underlying concept of it.

Creativity requires freedom, mental and technological, to be expressed. This is why creative people always want better tools.

Colour, higher definition and better audio all enhance immersion and bring a viewer closer to what they are seeing. HFR doesn't do that, it's more like eye candy. I love a good HFR shot and would love to own a Phantom or similar but in reality I'd use it once in a blue moon. Though for my current project it would make for some awesome shots, still don't care that much.

OMG!!! LOL!

Frank, I've got a pint ready for you whenever you're in FL. That was... Epic.

As a mater of fact, just the idea of "3 minutes gonna cost me 1200 bucks" is actually bad for my health, since it raises my blood pressure to definitive unhealthy levels.

Maybe I should make myself a herbal tea, and talk about my feelings now - you know, those price tags on CFast cards are really bad for my camera FengShui.

I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with HFR?

Don't get me wrong HFR is really cool when done well. It's really useful in research and development situations. Unless you are making a really annoying kung-fu movie in the rain* or shooting sporting events, I can't imagine ever using slow-mo as a narrative choice more than a second or two in a movie. And even then, I can rent a FS700 for a day.

If you are shooting Sporting events, I don't imagine the URSA would be the right camera for that situation.


I don't mean this post as an attack, but merely as an honest question; I don't understand the obsession?


*Annoying Kung-Fu movie reference: The Grandmaster - I love Kung-fu movies, even the cheesy ones. But the constant use of slo-mo and extreme close up slow-mo just made it too frustrating to watch. I couldn't finish it.

I can't speak for anyone but myself. And I really don't care what anyone else wants to do with their camera. I'm not going to rant about how I don't understand the obsession with shooting everything in real time. If you don't care for or need HFR for your projects then good for you, consider yourself lucky. But just because you don't need or understand why anyone else would need it doesn't mean that they don't need it, or shouldn't want it.

Personally I've dreamed of owning a cinema quality camera capable of shooting high frame rates since I was four years old. I want HFR so that I can destroy miniatures and create awesome practical and physically based VFX. And I want HFR in a Blackmagic like camera so that I can get the wide DR and grade it to match the rest of my Blackmagic footage.

So understand it or not, that is the obsession I've been holding onto for the past 26 years or so. And for the first time I can finally say that I'll probably have it in the not so distant future.

120fps really is the minimum for that kind of work. But I'm not going to demand it in any petitions, since I don't think that'll do a damn thing. I can however say that I just won't buy another camera until it's available with the other features I require.

Hey guys!
This petition is for the future users of the URSA, not other cameras ones. I am sorry if it was not clear.

Please, stop your useless prattling or create another discussion to voice that you do not need HFR and other technological progress. You are all saying nothing new here. You have the right to have opinion, just do not pollute my initiative. Enjoy your fears and limitations elsewhere.

Thank you very much.
S.

Skyler looks like a hippie troll!!!! ahahahahhahahaha

You are all saying nothing new here. You have the right to have opinion, just do not pollute my initiative. Enjoy your fears and limitations elsewhere.

This is definitely irony, right?

Why not make it 120fps or more. Why would anyone want less than a good thing? As long as it doesn't add to the cost of the camera then implement it.

There might be a few reasons why its not.
1) Being cautious and it could get implemented later.
2) Cant be bothered because they thought there would be little interest.
3) Cost to much to implement which I very much doubt the cost will probably be negligible.

If it is 2 and no ones knows the reason why Then the OT is a GOOD idea. Why shoot the guy in the foot for asking for something that adds to the toolset. Even if you yourself don't want it You never know later on you just might.

I had a similar problem trying to get a white balance or colour temperature tool request going. Its just unbelievable that some people want to stop a product from being better because they think they wont use it so don't add it for those who will. Its just a button you can ignore if you don't want it. I think some just like to take the opposite view regardless of whether its in the interests of those buying the product. Selfish people wanting to hold you back or put you down with hate in order to get attention for themselves or protect there own interests.

You've got to harness in the good energy, block out the bad. Harness... energy... block... bad. Feel the flow, feel it. It's circular. Its like a carousel-- you pay the quarter, you get on the horse. It goes up and down and around. Circular... circle. With the music, the flow. All good things.

You've got to harness in the good energy, block out the bad. Harness... energy... block... bad. Feel the flow, feel it. It's circular. Its like a carousel-- you pay the quarter, you get on the horse. It goes up and down and around. Circular... circle. With the music, the flow. All good things.

No it isn't Circular. How this topic should read is those who want it put their names down for it. The only reasonable reply is yes as long as it doesn't cost any more That way BM will know whether to think about it or not or in a reasonable world a BM rep would answer with "Had a word upstairs and the answer is they could implement it and it would cost x amount extra or nothing at all." Isn't this helping the OP and isn't that why we are here? Or is it ask a question and then get tarred and feathered with the thread being useless to all and just another war of meaningless word games with the winner being the best at making the OP a snivelling pile of crap for asking.

....the winner being the best at making the OP a snivelling pile of crap for asking.

I don't think that's the case - the OP made a suggestion and a couple of posters raised some valid objections about media and creative necessity. The replies to them was patronising new age nonsense about negativity and imagination and that is why a number of other posters, myself included, are taking issue with it.

I don't see why anyone would object particularly to higher frame rates in the URSA but if you're starting a petition then maybe it is a good idea to get people onside rather than getting quite so uppity about it. Storm in a herbal teacup...

....the winner being the best at making the OP a snivelling pile of crap for asking.

I don't think that's the case - the OP made a suggestion and a couple of posters raised some valid objections about media and creative necessity. The replies to them was patronising new age nonsense about negativity and imagination and that is why a number of other posters, myself included, are taking issue with it.

I don't see why anyone would object particularly to higher frame rates in the URSA but if you're starting a petition then maybe it is a good idea to get people onside rather than getting quite so uppity about it. Storm in a herbal teacup...

Here we go again Sigh

Back to the 120FPS thing, if you want a 120FPS camera "soonish" for "cheapish" then perhaps the CION is a better bet. It's the same sensor as the URSA (which really is a horrible name-- sounds like some Disney villain) and will give you 120 out as well. Personally I'd like 240 because I like easy mind math, but you gotta evaluate what you need out of the cameras you buy and what they give you at the moment you buy them, not what they might give you or they say they will give you at some future date.
Will there be a BM camera which does 1000fps one day, probably, if they stay in the game long enough. But hell, even 120 fps is a 5 stop difference from your baseline--- that's a hell of a lot of light to start throwing around when you're at a 400 ASA sensor which does best overexposed by 2/3rds of a stop to a stop.

Yes but Adrian this is a petition to add 120fps to the Ursa. Do you want to petition BM for this? Or would you rather not have the feature.

I see no reason to not want the ability to have it, so long as it doesn't effect reliability, weight, power consumption (when not using it for these 3-- eg. when you can turn it off), image quality of regular footage, or as I suppose is most important for many, price (too much). Anyone who is just against it for no reason whatsoever, on an unreleased camera, well, I don't see why one wouldn't want to have the switch on there should one need it. It's important, though, to keep in mind something i learned in high school in my general business class-- it's one of the few things which i recall well, TINSTAAFL-- There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch! So one has to think what such additions may add and detract, ya know.

I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with HFR?

The truth? In most cases, it's due to people looking for an excuse to not try.

"Well, I didn't make a movie this year because my camera didn't have feature ZX+4."

In reality, not having support for higher frame rates isn't a limitation in most films. When used well it looks great, but I've run into only two or three occasions so far when I've needed it, and so far a GoPro has been sufficient for those few times. I'm sure I'll run into a situation sooner or later when I'll wish I had the ability to run at 240fps in 2K or 4K, but also by then hopefully I'll have either a better budget and the ability to rent an appropriate camera for the day, if not own one outright. In the mean time though, the real film makers out there aren't going to let being limited to "normal" frame rates stop them from making films.

This isn't to say that I wouldn't want HFR, but not having it isn't something I'd call a negative about the Black Magic cameras in light of their price tag.

I like the creative options owning an HFR camera would offer while I learn, explore, and create. I would pay extra for an HFR camera that matched my BMCC 2.5K. And yea, I probably obsess over it too much. Why does well done slo-mo seduce me so?

It sounds like HFR might be possible for URSA in the future; I (again) want to add my voice for a 2.5K HFR sensor option with MFT mount.

And I don't think Skyler is looking to nail this petition on a door in Wittenberg, but looking more for a head count from those who would like to see meaningful HFRs.

I want HFR so that I can destroy miniatures and create awesome practical and physically based VFX. And I want HFR in a Blackmagic like camera so that I can get the wide DR and grade it to match the rest of my Blackmagic footage... ...120fps really is the minimum for that kind of work. But I'm not going to demand it in any petitions, since I don't think that'll do a damn thing.

Miniature work is a great reason to want HFR. I would argue though that there are other cameras out there that might be better suited for this kind of work. Again the FS700 is a great option. But I understand the desire to use matched cameras.

I think the thing that annoys me most about these types of posts, is how akin they are to someone posting in Craftsman's Hammer forum with a silly complaint:

I'm angry at Craftsman because my Shingling Hammer doesn't pull nails out of concrete very easily.

My question to you would be: Are you using the wrong tool for the job? If so, why aren't you using the right one?

If you want to shoot HFR all the time, buy a dedicated camera that does HFR well. If the phantom is too expensive, consider the FS700. If buying a camera is out of your budget, consider renting until you can afford one.

I'd love to have HFRs for some of my narratives. But I bought a camera that had an amazing image that was at an amazing price, knowing exactly what it was capable of. When I need HFR I will rent the proper tool. I will rent because I don't need it all the time and it's still very cost effective.

The RED, Phantom, and CION cameras cost more because they do more. Sure I'd love to have a swiss-army camera that did it all well for me. But I paid $3k for a image that normally would have cost much much more. I don't have much to complain about. (well except the FPN... but that's another story.)

Now if BMD were releasing a new camera with HFR at a higher cost than their current line up... that would make more sense.

Sure I'd love to have a swiss-army camera that did it all well for me.

This made my day hahaha

You've got to harness in the good energy, block out the bad. Harness... energy... block... bad. Feel the flow, feel it. It's circular. Its like a carousel-- you pay the quarter, you get on the horse. It goes up and down and around. Circular... circle. With the music, the flow. All good things.

Love that movie. Good quote.

I want HFR so that I can destroy miniatures and create awesome practical and physically based VFX. And I want HFR in a Blackmagic like camera so that I can get the wide DR and grade it to match the rest of my Blackmagic footage... ...120fps really is the minimum for that kind of work. But I'm not going to demand it in any petitions, since I don't think that'll do a damn thing.

Miniature work is a great reason to want HFR. I would argue though that there are other cameras out there that might be better suited for this kind of work. Again the FS700 is a great option. But I understand the desire to use matched cameras.

I think the thing that annoys me most about these types of posts, is how akin they are to someone posting in Craftsman's Hammer forum with a silly complaint:

I'm angry at Craftsman because my Shingling Hammer doesn't pull nails out of concrete very easily.

My question to you would be: Are you using the wrong tool for the job? If so, why aren't you using the right one?

If you want to shoot HFR all the time, buy a dedicated camera that does HFR well. If the phantom is too expensive, consider the FS700. If buying a camera is out of your budget, consider renting until you can afford one.

I'd love to have HFRs for some of my narratives. But I bought a camera that had an amazing image that was at an amazing price, knowing exactly what it was capable of. When I need HFR I will rent the proper tool. I will rent because I don't need it all the time and it's still very cost effective.

The RED, Phantom, and CION cameras cost more because they do more. Sure I'd love to have a swiss-army camera that did it all well for me. But I paid $3k for a image that normally would have cost much much more. I don't have much to complain about. (well except the FPN... but that's another story.)

Now if BMD were releasing a new camera with HFR at a higher cost than their current line up... that would make more sense.

Yeah there's an FS700 that shoots slow motion and with an external recorder you can have it in Raw. Which is the only way I would want it because I don't like the quality of the images recorded with the internal codec. And that solution is just too clunky and expensive for me to buy into.

Also renting a camera doesn't work for me for a lot of reasons. There are many reasons why I need to own my equipment that I won't go into. But trust me when I say without a doubt that they are more than valid...

I just fail to see why we aren't allowed to want a BMD camera that does HFR just because there are some other (more expensive) cameras that already do it... And I don't want to understand because I think that's ridiculous. I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to want, hope for, and ask for new features.

There is nothing wrong with people wanting HFR in a BMD camera. If someone doesn't need it that's great. But I sure would like it.

Also you mentioned "complaining" I never at any time "complained" about the lack of HFR. I've only expressed that I really want it. I would gladly pay more for HFR in the right camera. But I can only pay so much more.

Corrupt Frame, I apologize if I sounded hostile and the second part about the complaining and the hammering wasn't directed towards you.

I totally understand if renting isn't for you. Makes sense. And it definitely not illegal to ask for new features. I wasn't implying that. I was more commenting on the idea that at least twice a week a new thread is started here where someone is livid that the camera they bought and clearly didn't research is not capable of HFR and quite possibly may never be. Like I said, I feel you. I would love for my camera to have HFR and 16 stops of dynamic range, or what ever other feature it doesn't have at the moment. But the fact remains that BMD sold us a pretty damn amazing camera, for a fraction of the cost it would normally be. It's just a fact that in order to cut costs they would have to focus on a smaller feature set with less expensive hardware. That means that the extra stuff we want may never be possible in the current line up.

So want away! No harm in wanting HFR. But understand that it's more likely that when BMD does deliver it, it will most likely be late, have Blackhole sun, and most importantly, be in a whole new camera body.

Now, you can quote me on that. If I am wrong I would love to fry those words up, drizzle some gravy over'em and eat them up happily.

In the mean time, it might not be a bad idea for people to do a quick search on their proposed topic and see if it's been posted before, rather than starting 15 bajillion clones of the same question/complaint. But... that would make too much sense...