Blackmagic PDAF (Autofocus)

Didn't see a dedicated thread for this so decided to make one so people could share videos and experiences once the beta firmware drops.

Team 2 Films have apparently received an advance version of the software update and have made a video testing it out:

Believe they might be the first demonstration video of the PDAF outside of the NAB livestream yesterday.

Cannot manage to find the link for the beta.

Gimmie gimmie gimmie

When does this update become available? I can’t find any info on the release date.

So many firmware updates announced on Friday while all hands are on deck to support the crowds at NAB. I expect updates will follow NAB, but now we know what’s coming.

I think Grant said May in the video announcing the feature. I'll have to double check.

EDIT: Okay, he said "we'll post it today as a public beta."
Thus they will likely get it on the website Monday.

Thanks for sharing the video Chris. What I found curious that Team2 said that the sensor already was PDAF enabled - I didnt realise that the sensor needed a certain capability for that, but then again I don't know very much about autofocus at all. Which raises the question if the 12K sensor has that same capability? And since the Pyxis is the only camera with that sensor and an L-Mount, I would be curious if Blackmagic develops PDAF only for the 6K version (as its identically to Pocket6K FF) or the 12K as well..

Its absolutely wild that this year we’re going to have a 16 stop, 12k, full frame cinema camera with Face Tracking autofocus for under $5k.

Team2Films technology demonstration of the beta firmware upgrade was very good at demonstrating current capabilities. But this looks like it requires an L-mount camera with the full-frame Sony sensor found in the BMCC6K and the Pyxis 6K. I don’t recall anyone mentioning this would be supported by BMD in all L-mount cameras without the Sony 6K full-frame sensor such as the Pyxis 12K L-mount.

It would be good to know the official BMD roadmap for the deployment of this continuous auto focus with tracking in other cameras.

I don’t know if there are plans for BMD to include this capability in their proprietary future sensor designs. BMD may respectfully decline commenting on future sensor designs, but I feel they could clarify current sensor’s support of this capability in their current cameras assuming the lenses are focus by wire or whatever is required to support continuous auto focus tracking. Transparency please and thank you.

If this is coming to a Pyxis 12K with L-mount, I’ll switch my future order from PL to L-mount. I don’t want to switch to the Pyxis 6K with the Sony sensor that supports auto focus tracking now because I really want the extra stops of dynamic range on BMD’s 12K sensor more than anything. Auto focus tracking is nice to have but would require me to buy new lenses too. The thought of me relying on lenses that include focus-by-wire is a complete switch from my dedication to trouble-free manual cine lenses!

I’m in no hurry when ‘haste makes waste’ as this is likely to be my last camera purchase before senility strikes. That’s a sad statement to make and I wish it wasn’t so but I’m always looking 5-10 years ahead and that’s a possible reality.

Kristian Lam says it is supported in their L mount cameras I take that to mean any of the BMD cameras with a L mount. Grant said they are considering bringing AF tracking to other cameras but did not say which. You think BMD has better understanding of their own sensor design than they do with a Sony.

Cannot manage to find the link for the beta.

When does this update become available? I can’t find any info on the release date.

Not officially available yet - taking it that the public beta has been quietly delayed, which is supported by what Team 2 has been saying in the comments on their video. It's a bit poor form to delay something on such short notice, but I imagine BM want to make as good an impression as possible even with the beta for their first attempt at continuous AF.

Thanks for sharing the video Chris. What I found curious that Team2 said that the sensor already was PDAF enabled - I didnt realise that the sensor needed a certain capability for that, but then again I don't know very much about autofocus at all. Which raises the question if the 12K sensor has that same capability? And since the Pyxis is the only camera with that sensor and an L-Mount, I would be curious if Blackmagic develops PDAF only for the 6K version (as its identically to Pocket6K FF) or the 12K as well..

No problem. I'm also curious about the 12K sensor, Grant's comments in the livestream would suggest so but it'd be nice to have it confirmed. I'm no sensor expert either, but if you have to design the sensor for PDAF capability, it would entirely depend on whether BM factored that in when making the 12K sensor. I want to believe yes, just it's taken the software implementation time to manifest.

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I was in a rush this morning so didn't get to write my thoughts down about the video, so here goes:

This is a really good first effort, especially for beta software. The tracking failed in some of the test footage, but I'm conscious of the fact this is a first generation feature for BM. They've finally ripped the band-aid off, and the only way from here is up. I'd love to see this tested in other scenarios and hopefully see further improvement by the time it's final as a V1 feature. It won't be able to handle anything *too* crazy but I see a lot of utility for this feature in talking head shots, glamour shots for products, etc.

Firmware Update is live: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/suppor ... al-cameras

Looks like lots of love for the BMCC6K!

Interesting its only showing on the UK version of the site, not the Aus or the USA support pages......Yet

I can confirm the AF tracking works wirh the Sigma EF adapter. AF lock when touching the screen is not reliable and misses a lot so need to employ manual focus but once that is set it does track focussing. I need to test more.

L lens AF tracking is much more reliable than with EF adapter so the EF adaper need tweaking with the firmware I feel.

I tested multiple Canon EF lenses (24-70, 50mm, and 85mm) with the Sigma MC-21 EF-L converter. It seems to grab focus initially fairly well except with the 85mm, and tracks objects and faces really well. However, I've had no luck with the continuous autofocus staying focused on any objects, faces, or selected areas. I don't have any L-Mount lenses to test, but I would imagine they work better than adapted lenses.

I'm guessing firmware updates can fix this, but we'll see if it is a priority for them or not.

I also can confirm the AF works with the Sigma ef adapter. I trialed it on my only autofocus EF mount lens, Tokina 11-16 which has the worlds worst focus motors . It does work it auto focuses but really slow, not usable but Im thinking a better ef lens and a firmware update fior the mc 21 and a whole lot of doors have opened!!

Didn't see a dedicated thread for this so decided to make one so people could share videos and experiences once the beta firmware drops.

Team 2 Films have apparently received an advance version of the software update and have made a video testing it out:

Believe they might be the first demonstration video of the PDAF outside of the NAB livestream yesterday.

I`ve just updated my camera. Face tracking works perfect!

I was wondering if the 12k RGBW sensor was designed to have PDAF capability, which the 6k sensor obviously does . If it does I would think BMD might bring autofocus to the Cine 12k and Pyxis 12k, along with an L-amount adapter to go along the existing PL, LPL, and EF.

Didn't see a dedicated thread for this so decided to make one so people could share videos and experiences once the beta firmware drops.

Team 2 Films have apparently received an advance version of the software update and have made a video testing it out:

Believe they might be the first demonstration video of the PDAF outside of the NAB livestream yesterday.

I`ve just updated my camera. Face tracking works perfect!

Cool, Which Lens are you using? What about object tracking?

... and which lens mount did you use? Any converters?

My canon ef 16-35 L 4.0 in conjunction with the viltrox EF-L PRO works quite well. If it looses focus, but still has object tracked, it does not focus again. For example an object gets tracked, but a tree passes the way while moving the camera, focus is lost and stays lost.

To start making it work I had to downgrade the firmware of the converter to version V1.2 For AF Lenses. Latest firmware does not work at all (no iris, no focus).

Hi everyone,

I've tested it with two Sigma lenses 16-28 and 28-105 L-mount.
It can track a person's face, but often loses focus. It understands faces from the front well, but struggles with the sides.
There are also some issues with the focusing. For example, a frame might appear on the face, but it'll be white and the focus won't be adjusted. It'll just track the face. I haven't quite figured out how to get the focus to work yet, but I'm trying different things. Sometimes switching to a different focusing mode and back helps, and sometimes rebooting the camera does the trick. I don't really understand what it depends on. The worst thing is when there are two people in the frame. First the camera shoots the first person, the focus is adjusted, then I move the camera to the second person, the focus tracking frame disappears, and you have to try to return it by switching the mode, for example. It reappears, but white, and it's still unclear how to get the focus to work. I've noticed it works better on the Sigma 16-28 lens and less well on the newer Sigma 28-105 L-mount. I wouldn't focus on it though, it's just unpredictable. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but how can I make the white focus frame blue again? I've tried pressing my finger on a person's face in tracking mode, and I've tried different methods, but nothing has worked so far. Something different always works. It takes a lot of time.
Has anyone figured out how this works?

If it does not lock or lost focus I use manual focus to help it to lock into focus.

I did test the new firmware PDAF function with a Pana 24-70 Lumix S Pro. It's the only AF lens that I have in L Mount.
It's working well, although not perfectly. Thank you, BMD!

I'm looking forward to the Pyxis 12K, hoping that it will not present the horrible rolling shutter of the Cinema 6K.
B&H is no longer delivering BMD stuff to my country, so I'll go through CVP.

I tested the new Sigma Art 24-70 f2.8 DG DN II L mount lens, object tracking tracked quite well but the focus is a little bit off even though the blue square says it is in focus. I would say at this stage the AF is not reliable enough to be recommended in a professional shoot and more work needed to be done.

Otherwise Face detect AF locked into focus more successfully.

It’s a beta for a reason of course so it’s going to be hit or miss at this time. Thanks for sharing these experiences everyone.

BMD has a recommended list of media for recording in a variety of situations that has been helpful when purchasing media. When this feature moves out of beta, BMD may begin to maintain a list of recommended lenses that work well. There are so many lenses out there that the list may never be exhaustive and complete, but more in the spirit of guidelines to help guide future purchases.

These ‘free’ firmware updated features (from the consumer’s perspective) may come with an added support cost for BMD. Difficult to predict, but the freebie updates may be coming to a close next year as hinted by Grant when presenting the astounding new DaVinci Resolve 20.

It’s a beta for a reason of course so it’s going to be hit or miss at this time. Thanks for sharing these experiences everyone.

BMD has a recommended list of media for recording in a variety of situations that has been helpful when purchasing media. When this feature moves out of beta, BMD may begin to maintain a list of recommended lenses that work well. There are so many lenses out there that the list may never be exhaustive and complete, but more in the spirit of guidelines to help guide future purchases.

These ‘free’ firmware updated features (from the consumer’s perspective) may come with an added support cost for BMD. Difficult to predict, but the freebie updates may be coming to a close next year as hinted by Grant when presenting the astounding new DaVinci Resolve 20.

I thought he was only referring to Da Vinci Resolve were they may charge for updates (which is a shame and moving towards Adobe model). I would be surprised if they started charging for firmware updates in cameras etc considering the last 3 beta updates (including this one 9.4) breaks some customers CF card reader (6K FF), only version that works seems to be 8.6.which release 28th March 2024! That is over a year some of us have been waiting for a fix to this issue and its broken as of today.

Yes, you’re right DaVinci Resolve updates are still free but could have a cost in the future. My post was possibly extrapolating this to firmware updates. Not all updates but major updates where significant new features are given to older cameras. An example of that happening could be a release 10 of firmware updates whereas it appears release 9.5, &.6, 9.7 would likely be free.

To support implementation of the general release of 9.5 for example, it makes sense for BMD to provide guidelines for lenses and cameras that will include continuous auto focus tracking capabilities. To do that is an ongoing onerous and possibly expensive task given the huge number of lenses potentially involved, so it might push BMD to charge for that update.

My speculation. I hope I’m wrong.

I'm glad I sold my P 4k because it will never have the Af and tracking, and I would have felt very frustrated. Hoping they bring out a smaller pocket like the original with the new sensor, albeit 6k. Of course, I miss Braw, but the newer cameras are not for me. Well, maybe the Pixis broadcast if there were an L mount pz lens.

I just retired, but will be doing some smaller projects and personal stuff. I will try doing AI content for the internet


Ric Marty.

I did a quick test today with my Canon glasses. This is definitely not comprehensive, so read with care.

"working" means at least 3 out of 6 distances got hit accurate, only some hunting. Focus "cinematic" fast.
"not working" means mostly hunting, unusable, random focus.

Light was bright (natural), no filters applied, aperture was high (7-12)

Adapter used: Viltrox EF-L Pro
Firmware: 1.2 AF

Canon EF 24mm 1:2.8 working, but slow
Canon EF 35mm 1:2 working
Canon EF 50mm 1:1.4 not working!
Canon EF 85mm 1:1.8 small movements ok, bigger ones not
Canon EF 16-35mm 1:4L working, zoom working (best out of the batch)
Canon EF 24-70 1:4L working up to 55mm, rest hunting
Canon EF 24-70 1:2.8L working (second best out of the batch), some hunting above 60mm
Canon EF 24-105 1:4L not working!

I got the impression that:
the higher the aperture, the better the results (no wonder, I guess)
the wider the lens the better the results

the bigger the objects, the worse the results
very small object without clear background, focus often on background
too much light, worst results

So actually with a high aperture (6+) and a proper exposed picture, the results are promising for a beta. Very promising with a medium wide lens.

So, this is it for now...

It's a shame there's so little on the subject, because everyone has been waiting for it. Autofocus itself shouldn't be a big deal, after all, almost all cameras have it, except Blackmagic.

I keep reading about "L-mount," but I only use the EF mount myself.

I wanted to buy the Blackmagic PYXIS 6K EF mount, but I'm confused. Will autofocus even be available for the PYXIS 6K? If so, will it also be available for the EF mount model?

It would be nice if Blackmagic would comment on this, after all, cameras cost money and have to be planned for the next five years.

It may be prudent to pause a purchase of an EF-mount Pyxis 6K.

The sensor is the same as the BMCC6K so we know the sensor supports PDAF. The continuous auto focus tracking has been implemented in beta firmware for the BMCC6K L-mount cameras so we know that code is likely easy enough to transfer to the Pyxis 6K L-mount camera when the firmware is ready for general release. But BMD has only talked about support for L-mount at this time.

My guess is that a purchase of the Pyxis L-mount is a safe bet, but not the EF-mount. If you did that, you can use an adapter for EF-lenses to the L-mount camera. I’d still wait though for guidance from BMD or feedback on the forum as to which adapters give the best results with PDAF. So far it’s not safe to assume any EF lens on any adapter will work. Feedback from others testing on the BMCC6K is already being posted on the forum as you know.

Its absolutely wild that this year we’re going to have a 16 stop, 12k, full frame cinema camera with Face Tracking autofocus for under $5k.

El Presedente T says "No [<$5K U.S.] soup for you!"

(Now $6,595 U.S.)

i found this video online.. the second half of the video shows the face detect with a 50mm 1.8 Panasonic.. which performs not too bad actually..

Its absolutely wild that this year we’re going to have a 16 stop, 12k, full frame cinema camera with Face Tracking autofocus for under $5k.

The only thing that kept me from falling out of my chair when I got to that part of Grant's video was the cat in my lap

another promising 6k PDAF Clip, for anybody who is interested.

Lens used: 20-60mm f3.5-5.6Lumix Kit Lens

Having read more about PDAF and Dual Pixel Auto Focus enabled by the design of the sensor’s pixels, I can understand that the Cine 12K and Pyxis 12K sensors may not have been built with PDAF in mind. I don’t know if a future sensor iteration will include either method.

I now understand this is a serious change that may prove to be very difficult to implement on the 2.9 micron photosites without occasionally causing camera image degradation. Its weakness can be low light levels. Sony may have solved those potential problems, but this would be new ground for BMD to master. It could happen as BMD is certainly in the genius class of innovators.

In the meantime, I may just follow through with my original plan for the Pyxis 12K and that is to include the DJI Focus Pro and use LiDAR for assisted focusing. LiDAR’s biggest limitation though is currently I understand it’s only reliable up to 20 meters. That’s close to the maximum distance I shoot for my main clients so I expect to proceed with LiDAR and not fret about missing out on PDAF on Pyxis 12K. As long as LiDAR works, it won’t have any potential to degrade my image even in very low light.

It's a shame there's so little on the subject, because everyone has been waiting for it. Autofocus itself shouldn't be a big deal, after all, almost all cameras have it, except Blackmagic.

I haven't tried this on a Black Magic camera yet, but I'm hoping that it works as it does on Red. One of the nice fringe bonuses of autofocus on the Komodo was that it enabled using the app to pull focus. Especially when it was new Komodo autofocus was terrible, but enabling autofocus on the lens and controlling it with the app worked well, as long as the wifi signal held up.

For people starting up that's a great benefit, because it saves bux and rigging, even though in the long run you'll want a dedicated autofocus system and proper cine lens, but that combination costs quite a bit more than a decent autofocus lens, so it's a good stepping stone.

Hi,

i have a 3 year old 6K.... and it doesn' work at all... After firmware update, no focus setting available in the configuration menus....

Hi,

i have a 3 year old 6K.... and it doesn' work at all... .

It will only work with the Cinema Camera 6k, you seem to have the original pocket 6k, camera names are getting confusing.

Hi,

i have a 3 year old 6K.... and it doesn' work at all... .

It will only work with the Cinema Camera 6k, you seem to have the original pocket 6k, camera names are getting confusing.

You are right!!!!!

Everyone keeps saying "PDAF", but do we know that is the technology being used?

Phase detect pixels aren't necessary for an autofocus system. Panasonic got quite decent with contrast-only autofocus. Not as good as the best PDAF, but comparable to what we're seeing from the BMD tests so far.

It was confirmed by the product manager here. It's also in the release notes for firmware 9.5. In fact I think the option in the camera GUI is switchable between PDAF and Contrast.

This interview there is mention about a road map how PDAF might be coming to the 12k RGBW sensor and EF mount cameras with emphasis on their FF sensors

Dan May feels continuous auto focus is coming to Pyxis 12K and other cameras. I’ll not hold my breath for that.

Panasonic got quite decent with contrast-only autofocus. Not as good as the best PDAF, but comparable to what we're seeing from the BMD tests so far.

Contrast detect focus is actually more precise and gives better results than PDAF, but it is slow. PDAF is all about speed - it doesn't nail the focus quite as accurately as contrast detection, but it gets very close, and does so VERY quickly.

This is most important when shooting events where things are not staged and you need to get a shot off quickly without much time to set it up - where something can happen so quickly that you need to pull up the camera and hit the button with little or no notice.

Some cameras which have PDAF capabilities actually combine these by using PDAF to perform initial focusing then switch to contrast detection to refine it from there for greater precision.

Continuous focus is more about maintaining focus with small adjustments for something that is moving at a reasonable speed through the frame, so the slower speed of contrast detection is probably less of an issue for this and implementing continuous focus without the benefit of PDAF is not necessarily an issue for most practical use cases.

Even if the 12K sensor does not allow for PDAF, it could still be quite reasonable to support continuous focus, simply using contrast detection instead, as contrast detection does not require the special sensor hardware that PDAF does.

Good point, Frank. Then Dan May could still be right saying continuous auto focus tracking is coming to the Pyxis 12K in a matter of months, not years. The biggest challenge is coping with low light, but the RGBWWW sensor may have an advantage there compared to traditional Bayer RGBG CFA.

Is there any reason that this would not come to EF-mount as well?

BMD spent 2 years developing AF tracking on an old Sony sensor that are seen on just 2 of their cameras and likely not any more on new cameras going forward (readout speed is poor). I believe what they say when it said they want to us the BMCC6K for testing their PDAF and we will see this feature in future cameras with new sensor if not on their current RGBW sensor cameras.