Blackmagic Forum

Its been repeated in other forums but not here.
What are future/current users looking at as far as SSDs are concerned?
A few questions come to mind.
512GB or less better?
Anyone have any experience as to what is best at this current stage?
I noticed a few of the ones on the BMDCC list are discontinued but can be found if you look hard enough.
Any vendors to look/watch out for?
Is eBay even viable for purchasing such items?
I am sure others on this forum are wondering too.
Lets open up the lines and see what we can all come up with

In addition to the current list of SSDs on BMD's website (which I suspect will be updated often) ...
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support ... 542&os=mac

... just for completeness, the following info on BMD's site should be noted by anyone researching SSDs for use with their BMCC, especially ones not already on the "officially tested" list:

================================
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support ... snid=23763

"Important Notes About SSD Speed:

Some models of SSD can’t save video data at the speed the manufacturer claims. This is due to the disk using hidden data compression to attain higher write speeds. This data compression can only save data at the manufacturer’s claimed speed when storing data such as blank data or simple files. Video data includes video noise and pixels which are more random so compression will not help, therefore revealing the true speed of the disk.

Some SSDs can have up to 50% lower write speed than the manufacturer’s claimed speed. So even though the disk specifications claim an SSD has speeds fast enough to handle video, in reality the disk isn’t fast enough when used to store video data for real time capture. However, this mostly affects HD capture and often these disks can still be used for playback.

Use Blackmagic Disk Speed Test to accurately measure whether your SSD will be able to handle uncompressed video capture and playback. Blackmagic Disk Speed Test uses data to simulate the storage of video so you get results similar to what you’ll see when capturing video to a disk. During Blackmagic testing, we have found newer, larger models of SSD and larger capacity SSDs are generally faster."

==========

Thanks Peter very helpful
What are you using with your HyperDeck now and what speeds are you getting with your SSD reader option?

Eric Santiago wrote:Thanks Peter very helpful
What are you using with your HyperDeck now and what speeds are you getting with your SSD reader option?

I'll do some tests using the BMD's Disk Speed Test utility and report back. I'd tested it previously, but have misplaced some of my notes.

One detail I can report is that a Seagate 3TB SATA-3 HDD connected to my MBP-17 via eSATA cables and the Sonnet eSATA-3 ExpressCard34 adapter can copy a single ~230GB uncompressed video file (recorded by my Hyperdeck Shuttle v.1) to my MBP's 2nd internal HDD (which is a SATA-2 device) in 45-minutes. In other words, ~25 min. worth of uncompressed 10-bit 1080 HD (or ~2.5 hrs. of ProRes HQ or DNxHD compressed video) takes ~45 min. to copy between those two particular devices via that particular combination of hardware. Connected via FW800, the same copy operation takes more than twice as long.

I suspect that with the newest Retina MBP, the same file copy would take far less time via Thunderbolt; I'm guessing 5-15 minutes at worst, but that's just a guess. It would be great if someone who has a new Retina MBP & T-Bolt external drive would post their results here.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:I suspect that with the newest Retina MBP, the same file copy would take far less time via Thunderbolt; I'm guessing 5-15 minutes at worst, but that's just a guess. It would be great if someone who has a new Retina MBP & T-Bolt external drive would post their results here.

Thanks again Peter!
The only thing about TB is that it doesnt copy DNG via TB to a Mac.
Thus why Im more concerned about using an eSATA dock option.
I am considering smaller SSDs as oppose to the big 512.
Its great that we have that option of using ProRes/DNxHD via TB to Mac.
Might need it for other types of shoots

Eric Santiago wrote:

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:I suspect that with the newest Retina MBP, the same file copy would take far less time via Thunderbolt; I'm guessing 5-15 minutes at worst, but that's just a guess. It would be great if someone who has a new Retina MBP & T-Bolt external drive would post their results here.

Thanks again Peter!
The only thing about TB is that it doesnt copy DNG via TB to a Mac.
Thus why Im more concerned about using an eSATA dock option.
I am considering smaller SSDs as oppose to the big 512.
Its great that we have that option of using ProRes/DNxHD via TB to Mac.
Might need it for other types of shoots

When you say "The only thing about TB is that it doesnt copy DNG via TB to a Mac.", what are you referring to?

Are you talking about a BMCC connected directly to a computer via T-Bolt? If so, no, the BMCC doesn't do data file transfers via T-Bolt at all. You can use T-Bolt & Media Express to capture live video from a BMCC, but not transfer data files from a SSD drive inside the BMCC to a computer via T-Bolt (and not via the BMCC's USB-2 port, either).

Or, were you referring to something else?

Also, I agree with you about carefully considering whether using "big" SSDs is wise, unless absolutely necessary. The saying, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." exists for a reason. Unless you're recording a long, continuous event (and even then), spreading valuable production assets across multiple "smaller" SSDs may be safer. At least until SSDs have a longer track record of reliability when recording uncompressed or lightly-compressed HD video files. As always, "YMMV".

i get about 500mb/s read and write (tested with the BM tester) with a samsung 256 SSD via thunderbolt goflex...either way this should be fast enough....
amazon has the sandisk extreme SSD 240 for 170.- the 480gb version is a little bit slower....either way SSD prices are coming way down and speed should not be an issue regardless...

e-sata gets mentioned here and i have tried several adapters for the MBP via express card slot....they are very temperamental to say the least and max out at 150mb/s...better then FW800 but not even close to thunderbolt and by far less convenient...the worst is that all the speed agin of SSD is lost with anything other then TB....

in other words the better solution is to sell a non TB MBP and get the TB solution....

My understanding is that you can record ProRes/DNxHD to a Mac using the TB option on the BMDCC.
If Im wrong it wont be the first time
I would love to get a MBP with TB but to date I dont see any SSD reader options with TB.
Maybe soon we will see a cartridge loading option like the REDMAG 1.8.
I have a few of those at work and its too bad you cant fit a regular SSD in it.
However they only go as fast as eSATA.
So Santa, all I want for Xmas is an SSD reader with TB
Here's hoping I get my BMDCC before that

Ok Im misinformed, I did not know the GoFlex was TB.
I thought it was USB3 or less.
I have to get this camera soon, Im starting to lose it here

As promised, in addition to the info I posted above, here are the results of some speed tests:

My "early 2010" MacBook Pro 17" (2.66 GHz i7, 8GB RAM) does not have a Thunderbolt port.

Instead of T-Bolt, I've added a Sonnet eSATA-3 dual port ExpressCard34 adapter. I also replaced the internal DVD drive with a Seagate SATA-2 750GB 7200rpm 2.5" HDD. The 2nd internal HDD is connected to the MBP's internal SATA-2 interface.

I have a OCZ Vertex-3 240GB SATA-3 SSD drive, or as John Brawley affectionately refers to it, the SSD drive of death. JB has had something like 6 of these drives fail on him, which I wish I'd known before I bought one. So, buyer beware. YMMV.

I recorded 25 min. of uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2 1080p25 PAL video onto the SSD using my Hyperdeck Shuttle v.1. The resulting Quicktime ".mov" file is 213GB. Alternatively, about 2-hours of ProRes 422 HQ recorded using a BMCC would result in a similar ~213GB size QT file.

When I insert the SSD into the external enclosure (OWC Mercury Elite Mini, which includes a eSATA-2 port), the 213GB file on the SSD can be copied to the 2nd internal HDD in my MBP in 45 minutes.

When I run BMD's Disk Speed Test against the SSD (with the 213GB on the SSD, so it's almost full), the result is 100 MB/s write, and 180 MB/s read. If I delete the 213GB file so the SSD is empty and run the speed test again, the result is the same.

Before I deleted the 213GB file from the SSD, I also timed how long it took to copy it to a Seagate 3TB SATA-3 7200rpm HDD in another external enclosure. The 3TB drive is connected to the Sonnet adapter card via eSATA-3, so the 3TB drive is capable of the same max. SATA-3 speed as the card. However, because my SSD drive is in an enclosure with a eSATA-2 interface, the time to copy from SSD to external 3TB HDD is the same: 45 min. Again, the limiting factor is the eSATA-2 interface.

I ran the BMD Disk Speed Test against the 3TB HDD. When the 3TB HDD was empty, the results were: 105 MB/s write, and 188 MB/s read. I have 3 of these 3TB drives, and 2 of them are 1/2 full. The speed test results for the 1/2 full drives is only slightly slower: 103 MB/s write, and 178 MB/s read.

I ran the disk speed test against the 2nd internal HDD in my MBP. This drive is currently about 2/3 full. The results are: 88 MB/s write, and 92 MB/s read.

One last test: I ran the BMD disk speed test against the SSD drive in the 2.5" external enclosure, but this time, instead of connecting it via the enclosure's eSATA-2 port, I connected it to my MBP via its FW800 port. The results are: 76 MB/s write, and 81 MB/s read.

The above is just a sampling of real-world results using a 2 yr. old laptop computer with some new, but not state-of-the-art, storage systems.

Based on what other users have reported, you can expect far faster speeds using a Thunderbolt-equipped computer with T-Bolt peripherals. eSATA-3 is slightly faster than USB-3 (and much faster than FW800), but T-Bolt is 3-5 faster than eSATA-3. Of course YMMV depending on the particular combination of hardware & software (& drivers) installed.

Cheers.

How about samsung and intel drives?

Samsung 830 seems tested on BM site but Intel ?

They should be the ones your mac likes i have impression.

all others tend to fail sooner or later.

Margus Voll wrote:...Samsung 830 seems tested on BM site but Intel ?

They should be the ones your mac likes i have impression.

all others tend to fail sooner or later.

As an FYI for this Samsung drive, we are going to be removing this drive from the list as more recent firmwares for this drive do not work well with our devices.

Can anyone comment regarding the OWC SSD drives and whether they will pair well with the BMC? They are my preferred ones so I'd like to use those.
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/SSD/OWC/

Does the OCZ Agility 4 240GB work well for RAW capture and pro res?

Am I the only finding the Crucial CTFDDAC256MAG-1G1 option all over the map as far as pricing goes?
I see it from 600 USD down to 300 brand new.
Doesnt make sense and feels sketchy online.

Joshua Helling wrote:

Margus Voll wrote:...Samsung 830 seems tested on BM site but Intel ?

As an FYI for this Samsung drive, we are going to be removing this drive from the list as more recent firmwares for this drive do not work well with our devices.

Are you certain it's being removed? The Samsung 830 512GB SSD is listed able to handle CinemaDNG recording as of the latest BlackMagic Cinema Camera FAQ today. Thanks for any clarification Joshua as this is the unit I was leaning towards but haven't purchased.

Joshua Helling wrote:

Margus Voll wrote:...Samsung 830 seems tested on BM site but Intel ?

They should be the ones your mac likes i have impression.

all others tend to fail sooner or later.

As an FYI for this Samsung drive, we are going to be removing this drive from the list as more recent firmwares for this drive do not work well with our devices.

amazon is selling the sandisk extreme 240gb SSD for 170 right now, so that would be my first choice (after the samsung 830 which i have several of and which is rock solid in my macs?!) right now....any problems with that drive in the BMCC?

Crucial 512GB M4 is $389 at B&H

Cheers.

Anyone have a choice SSD specifically under 240GB flavor.
I think the 400+ is a bit much for what I need.

Having seen the Samsung 830 520gb on the BMCC support page, and seeing the high ratings the drive got on Tomshardware.com I went ahead and bought 2x of the 256gb drives from Amazon. Thankfully, they are still in the box and I can return them.

Could you please tell me which drives in that size range I can confidently buy? For instance, I see that the Vertex 3 is recommended, but the Vertex 4 is cheaper and seemingly much better and more reliable. Is that a good choice?

Thank you,

Austin

Joshua Helling wrote:

Margus Voll wrote:...Samsung 830 seems tested on BM site but Intel ?

They should be the ones your mac likes i have impression.

all others tend to fail sooner or later.

As an FYI for this Samsung drive, we are going to be removing this drive from the list as more recent firmwares for this drive do not work well with our devices.

austinflack wrote:Could you please tell me which drives in that size range I can confidently buy? For instance, I see that the Vertex 3 is recommended, but the Vertex 4 is cheaper and seemingly much better and more reliable. Is that a good choice?

Thank you,

Austin

Joshua Helling wrote:

Margus Voll wrote:...Samsung 830 seems tested on BM site but Intel ?

They should be the ones your mac likes i have impression.

all others tend to fail sooner or later.

As an FYI for this Samsung drive, we are going to be removing this drive from the list as more recent firmwares for this drive do not work well with our devices.

The answers are in the recently released BMCC Manual on page 25:
Recommended SSDs for RAW Recording
SSD’s recommended for use with Blackmagic Cinema Camera and RAW 2.5K video recording include:
‚ Crucial 256GB C300
‚ Crucial 512GB M4 (firmware 009)
‚ Kingston 64GB SSDNow V+100 ‚
Kingston 128GB SSDNow V+100 ‚
Kingston 240GB SSDNow V+200
‚ Kingston HyperX 240GB
‚ Sandisk Extreme 480GB.

The OCZ drives are no longer on that list (in the manual). Don't know when BMD will update the online BMCC FAQ. But the FAQ must be out-of-date if we are to believe Joshua Helling's comment above... I believe Joshua.

I lucked out and got an brand new Crucial 256 C300 on eBay for half the price.
Of course I wont be happy till I see it in my hands.
Hmm and in my BMCC

I'm still under NDA with BMD on certain things with the Cinema Camera, but I can say this for now. I bought a couple of Crucial M4 512GB SSDs for our Cinema Camera. I don't like them. They have slow boot times for one. But they DO work. Regardless, I'm not buying anymore of them. I also have the SanDisk Extreme 480GB model, and I love it. Fast boot times and very solid. I'm so happy with it, I have another one on the way that arrives tomorrow. And take note: larger SSDs perform faster than smaller ones, at least as far as the Cinema Camera is concerned.

Marco Solorio wrote:I also have the SanDisk Extreme 480GB model, and I love it. Fast boot times and very solid. I'm so happy with it, I have another one on the way that arrives tomorrow. And take note: larger SSDs perform faster than smaller ones, at least as far as the Cinema Camera is concerned.

Several people have commented that the Sandisk looks like the best drive on the list. Now you have added to its credibilit, Although too soon to be on any list, the one I'm most interested in is the Plextor M5 Pro 512GB SSD which has just been released I think--it's on Plextor's website. It's sustained read/write times are very close to the Sandisk Extreme and the random IOPS are quite high. it won't likely be as inexpensive as the Sandisk Extreme that's going for $359-$379 for 480GB.

Bummed about this. The Crucial M4 seems like a good deal based on size/price.

Marco Solorio wrote:I bought a couple of Crucial M4 512GB SSDs for our Cinema Camera. I don't like them. They have slow boot times for one. But they DO work. Regardless, I'm not buying anymore of them.

Do the Samsung 830 256GB's work for capturing ProRes?

Adam Jeal wrote:Do the Samsung 830 256GB's work for capturing ProRes?

The Samsung 830 512GB used to be on the list for RAW 2.5K recording but it's not listed in the manual due to some problem with a newer firmware. There are no drives referenced in the manual for capturing compressed video such as ProRes. Any drive that supports RAW recording will work for compressed.

Joshua Helling wrote:

Margus Voll wrote:...Samsung 830 seems tested on BM site but Intel ?

They should be the ones your mac likes i have impression.

all others tend to fail sooner or later.

As an FYI for this Samsung drive, we are going to be removing this drive from the list as more recent firmwares for this drive do not work well with our devices.

Can you please explain this further? Will the 256GB version work for ProRes & DNXHD? - Is this problem just with the current firmware (released on Aug 19th) ?

I don't believe the 256 Samsung was ever in the mix of things?

Can someone from Blackmagic comment on the supported drives list? The one in the manual is different than the one in the faq - which one is right? I had bought an OCZ Vertex 3 240 which seems to no longer be supported (Don't know if it was due to John's experience or not).

Rick Lang's post above is the defacto list.

I just ordered two of the 256GB Crucial M4 SSDs and a USB3.0 2.5"/3.5" SATA dock (recommended amongst a BMDCC SSD kit). Also bought two of the SSD cases to put them in. Only $5 each.

Disclaimer: I'm going to shoot primarily in ProRes at first.

Adam Jeal wrote:Can you please explain this further? Will the 256GB version work for ProRes & DNXHD? - Is this problem just with the current firmware (released on Aug 19th) ?

Sure, when it was originally tested it was working very well besides the occasional trim issue, which meant the drive would need to be cleaned and formatted once in a while. Later a firmware was released which caused some serious problems with mounting the drives on different devices. For example you could mount it on a Hyperdeck studio, but then not to a shuttle, but putting it back on a computer would work. Essentially the device got really inconsistent and we are not exactly sure why. So we felt it was safer to remove it.

Tim Veal wrote:Can someone from Blackmagic comment on the supported drives list? The one in the manual is different than the one in the faq - which one is right? I had bought an OCZ Vertex 3 240 which seems to no longer be supported (Don't know if it was due to John's experience or not).

The one on the FAQ is typically updated more frequently. So I would generally default to it first.

Yes the OCZ's were removed from the list due to what seems to us to be a high failure rate.

We find that the higher volume drives seem to perform better than the smaller, but there are plenty of the smaller drives that work.

Joshua Helling wrote:We find that the higher volume drives seem to perform better than the smaller, but there are plenty of the smaller drives that work.

First off glad to see you here Joshua, please stay awhile so we can bask in your knowledge
Now back to SSD talk, can you give us some basic tests done without using any of BMDs products?
Can we test these drives with the BMD app for speed or is that not how testing is done for the BMCC?
A lot of us are scrambling to find the right drive and some have gone rogue with drives not on the list.
I applaud them but Im too chicken to buy the wrong drive.

Thanks for clarifying the OCZ drives Joshua.

Thanks for the response Joshua. I've just managed to exchange my Samsung's for Sandisk Extreme SSD's

Adam

Noel Sterrett wrote:Crucial 512GB M4 is $389 at B&H

Cheers.

Be VERY careful with the M4's. Even with firmware rev. 0009 (as recommended in BM listings), it consistently failed during recording, ruining my 3-day shoot. So much for recommended listings! It MIGHT work better if you upgrade the firmware (they released a newer firmware just last week).

It almost sounds like Blackmagic should do a RED and resell their own "most reliable" series of SSD sizes.

hoeveler wrote:

Noel Sterrett wrote:Crucial 512GB M4 is $389 at B&H

Cheers.

Be VERY careful with the M4's. Even with firmware rev. 0009 (as recommended in BM listings), it consistently failed during recording, ruining my 3-day shoot. So much for recommended listings! It MIGHT work better if you upgrade the firmware (they released a newer firmware just last week).

Marco (I think?) mentioned they had issues with the Crucial M4s.
He suggested to go with the Sandisk.

Yes, Eric is right in referencing me. I've grown to absolutely HATE the Crucial M4 SSDs (512GB). Slow on camera boot times, and worst of all, completely dropped frames on ProRes on every second or two (RAW is okay but drooped frames once there too). IMO, the Crucial M4 SSDs are worthless and a waste of money. I am NOT using them with the camera anymore. Junk.

And yes, I absolutely LOVE the SanDisk Extreme SSDs (480GB) with the camera. Very fast boot times (like around 3 seconds), and I've NEVER had a single failure or dropped frame with them, both RAW and ProRes.

This might not be widely known, but if the Cinema Camera drops a single frame when recording, the red REC display on the LCD screen will blink to let you know.

I've recorded over 2 HOUR non-stop runs with the Cinema Camera (in ProRes), and no dropped frames with the SanDisk. And again, no dropped frames in RAW either.

I will ONLY buy 480GB SanDisk Extreme SSDs. And dang it, they were on sale for only $319 on Amazon the other day and I should have bought more of them.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006EK ... nemed0a-20

Cheers!

Marco thanks for your input
The frames that drop, are they salvageable?
Can you still use the clip?
That would drive me nuts in RAW format.
Is there some kind of warning on the file if its missing frames?
Maybe in the metadata?

Thank you so much for the update! I just changed my SSD order from OCZ to the Sandisk Extreme! Now it's all waiting on the camera!

Eric: No, the frames are not salvageable from the Crucial M4 SSDs as they drop (about 4-5 frames) every second. It's completely obvious on playback and worthless. But again, the camera lets you know the instant a single frame is dropped. The file itself isn't flagged as far as I know, but will mention it to the BMD dev team.

Bill: Very wise. The 480GB SanDisk Extreme SSDs have been 100% bullet proof for me in all manners of shooting.

For the record:

By accident I bought a Kingston 240GB ssdNow KC100 instead of the recommended Kingston 240GB SSDNow V+200 on the list.

The KC100 performs just fine - though I would normally not buy it for that camera, cause it's an overkill.

Frank

OK.. I switched my order to the SanDisk Extreme Solid State Drive (240GB)
here are the spec's...
Performance
Capacity 240GB
Interface SATA
Sustained Transfer Rate SATA 6Gb/s (backward compatible to SATA 3Gb/s & SATA 1.5Gb/s)
Sequential Read 550MB/s
Sequential Write 520MB/s
Random Read Seek Time 39K IOPS
Random Write Seek Time 83K IOPS
MTBF 2M hours
General
Environmental Requirements Operating: 32-158˚F (0-70˚C)
Non-operating temperature: -67-203˚F (-55-95˚C)
Power Active: 0.6W
Size 9.5mm Form Factor
Shock Resistance 1500G @ 0.5 mSec
Vibration Operating: 2.17gRMS, 5-700Hz
Non-operating: 3.13gRMS, 5-800Hz

Is this going to work? I don't see it on the suggested list for 12bit RAW shooting.. but I do see the larger sized brother on the list.. I also noticed the size is listed as 9.5mm rather than 2.5..
This is the SSD that was recommended by B&H..
Wondering if I should change my SSD order again to the larger SSD recommended by BMD?

Bill, until it's on the list in the BMCC Manual or a list that has been revised in October, I would think it is a gamble. There have been very positive posts about the Sandisk Extreme 480GB but not the 240GB drive. You can chose to follow the retailer's recommendation and let us know if 240GB works flawlessly. When I buy it will be either the 480GB Sandisk or the Plextor M5 Pro when and if BMD approves that new SSD.

Bill, I agree with Rick. The larger 480GB drive (like most SSDs) have faster read/write times. I have no experience with anything less than 480GB on the SanDisk. Personally, I wouldn't take a chance. What happens if you drop frames on the "perfect shot" that you can't recreate? Personally, it's not worth it to me. The 480GB SanDisk Extreme SSDs have been 100% solid: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=230&start=30#p9267

Thanks Rick and Marco for confirming my suspicions.. I'll call B&H tomorrow and switch to the 480gb SSD.. it's proven success rate and the experience of an actual user is good enough for me! I suppose the one benefit of not having the camera shipped yet is still having the ability to switch SSD's. Hopefully I'll get my BMCC at some point this month

I bought a Vertex 4 240 GB - deeply disappointed, drive speed is well under half the stated speed and I'm not sure its going to work with the camera for RAW. The first one I got was defective on arrival. Avoid these!

is this internal SSD or external SSD?