BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

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Gerald Baria

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BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 5:55 am

Latest price drop on the Nex 5N is less than 500$ msrp. Thats an entire camera. That 16 megapixel sensor has fantastic low light and dynamic range. Probably costing around $100. Cant BM buy that sensor then put it in the current BMCC body and just write a 4K software for it. Then BOOM! We got a new , STILL CHEAP, Cinema Camera with fantastic image quality but a sensor cloer to Super 35! Just a thought.
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Margus Voll

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 8:57 am

internal processing and io should also handle it so i think just sensor does not help even the cheap one.
Specially when we want to have 12 bit raw still. Single ssd will not handle 4k raw for now.

and availability in quantity is also important. maybe you will get 100 of them not 100 000
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Jules Bushell

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 1:34 pm

Gerald Baria wrote:Cant BM buy that sensor then put it in the current BMCC body and just write a 4K.


Please Blackmagic don't give us 4k! It's just a marketing gimmick (IMHO). My favourite digital camera, the Arri Alexa, doesn't even have 4k.

Better still to give us 4:3 out of the current sensor 2432x1824 resolution for anamorphic. Will probably mean an SSD >60,000 IOPS (?, I haven't done the maths) but possible.

Also higher frame rates; at least 48fps with ProRes, maybe possible under current BMCC architecture?


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Pete Proniewicz-Brooks

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 1:48 pm

While I disagree that 4k is just a marketing gimmick, the BMCC is not the camera for it at this stage.

Plus upping a cameras resolution is far more complex than just slapping in a higher resolution sensor, especially if you want it to look like a 4k version of the existing model.
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Jesuan Soriano

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 2:58 pm

rumors say Arri and Panavision are working in a 4k camera.....

Jesus.
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Pat Horridge

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 3:15 pm

The GoPro Hero3 now has 4K (ok only at 15fps.....)
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Pete Proniewicz-Brooks

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 3:37 pm

Pat Horridge wrote:The GoPro Hero3 now has 4K (ok only at 15fps.....)


True, though most of the situations I'd be looking at a gopro, I'm sure I'd be looking at high frame rates for motion reasons or slo-mo.

There are uses for that 15FPS 4k but it looks like its capabiltiy added to improve the lower resolutions fps and look rather than added specifically to add 4k.
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Bill Rich

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 3:41 pm

Please forgive me if I'm wrong.. and I'm only speaking for myself here..

The reason I've paid for this camera is not just because it shoots RAW. or high quality ProRes.. but the image the camera captures.. The sensor has a lot to do with the image.. (along with the processor) If you put a different sensor in the BMCC.. it will have a different look.. which might be good or not. I'm sure BMD's R&D folks are already looking at the next version of the camera and looking at other sensors etc. but for now.. I'm really digging the BMCC as it is.. sure there will be firmware updates to address some of the UI issues like audio meters and exposure metering etc.. I believe they've said those things are already in the works.

What I've seen is when folks actually shoot with the camera they've discovered the sensor size and crop isn't the issue they thought it would be..

I'm thinking that if you put that Sony 5n sensor in the BMCC.. you'll simply have a camera that captures the same image as the $500. 5n at a higher bit rates. Plus that sensor is designed for a still camera and has to be sampled down for video.. so here we go again with aliasing and Moire'.. So instead find a sensor designed specifically for video.. such as the Super35.. (which I'm guessing BMD is already looking at)
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 3:52 pm

I think Bill has said it all ;) .. couldn't agree more! But I guess that hard to understand for people who only look at tech specs. Especially Sony - it's still pretty hard even on their newest cams to get to this really nice "cinematic" image instead of their usual video look.

And I couldn't care any less about XAVC... yuck
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Gerald Baria

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 3:56 pm

16 megs is for oversampling, then debayering to 4K...thats the best way to have a 4k image. This will be the BMCC for 4K producers....those who do massive special effects etc. probably 4K USD then the BMCC 1.0 price drops to 2K.
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Pete Proniewicz-Brooks

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 4:27 pm

Gerald Baria wrote:16 megs is for oversampling, then debayering to 4K...thats the best way to have a 4k image. This will be the BMCC for 4K producers....those who do massive special effects etc. probably 4K USD then the BMCC 1.0 price drops to 2K.



THe issue with your intial suggestion is that no matter how the sensor produces the 4k image if the resulting raw image doesnt look like its a 4k version of the BMCC then its not a 4K BMCC its a different camera entirely.

The Scarlet and the Epic produce such a similar image becasue the sensor is the same (well at the moment it is, Dragon will change that intially I believe, Scarlet isn't confirmed for it yet), its other componets that are lower specced that keep the scarlets abilties down. Even when Dragon hits you can bet that they'll have worked it to look as similar to the current sensor as possible, just higher res.
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Jason R. Johnston

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 5:31 pm

In 2 or 3 years we will probably see a 4K Cinema Camera (if this one does well) and it will probably be 4 to 6000 dollars. Still very inexpensive, but realistic. Some of us may wind up having multiple Resolve licenses because of it. I suspect BMD will eventually be able to fully produce the cameras in-house after a while, further keeping the pricetag manageable for low-rent consumers, while keeping the standards and options where they should be, maybe a few more bells and whistles. I suspect v1 will be overcranking in a few months. It might be 48 or 60fps and only in ProRes, but it'll happen. V2 will be even better. But it won't be a Sony sensor. I know BMD has a few plans for the future and a few more things to reveal about v1 as time goes on. There is no gimmick, 4K is the future standard. If anything we will find that HD was the real gimmick...which it is. Film is the bench mark. 4K-8K is the digital equivalent-ish depending on the format. We will see a 4K BMCC but not for $3k and probably not next year.
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rick.lang

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostMon Nov 19, 2012 5:50 pm

Pete Proniewicz-Brooks wrote:
Pat Horridge wrote:The GoPro Hero3 now has 4K (ok only at 15fps.....)


True, though most of the situations I'd be looking at a gopro, I'm sure I'd be looking at high frame rates for motion reasons or slo-mo.

There are uses for that 15FPS 4k but it looks like its capabiltiy added to improve the lower resolutions fps and look rather than added specifically to add 4k.


Pete, can you tell me how 15fps is useful for a cinema camera unless you intend to either retime it to 24fps or 30fps via optical flow in FCPX, for example? Or of course if you want a shot to appear to be fast-motion intentionally for various reasons. Thanks for your advice.
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Pete Proniewicz-Brooks

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostTue Nov 20, 2012 9:33 am

rick.lang wrote:
Pete Proniewicz-Brooks wrote:
Pat Horridge wrote:The GoPro Hero3 now has 4K (ok only at 15fps.....)


True, though most of the situations I'd be looking at a gopro, I'm sure I'd be looking at high frame rates for motion reasons or slo-mo.

There are uses for that 15FPS 4k but it looks like its capabiltiy added to improve the lower resolutions fps and look rather than added specifically to add 4k.


Pete, can you tell me how 15fps is useful for a cinema camera unless you intend to either retime it to 24fps or 30fps via optical flow in FCPX, for example? Or of course if you want a shot to appear to be fast-motion intentionally for various reasons. Thanks for your advice.


Not hugely useful in a cinema camera, but thats limiting things a bit much. Shots with limted motion etc can be used. The other case is for Jerky motion, replicating effects such as security cam footage (and since its nice and small and remote controlled really is good for that), not sure why you'd want 4k footage for that job apart from punching in and possibly replication secrity cam panning etc but hey.

As I say the 4k smacks of a sensor put in to improve the GoPro's bread and butter shots, and having a limited 4k mode activated for marketing purposes more than actually to provide useful 4k, but there are a few niche uses that mean activating its not just a marketing gimmick just mostly.
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Nick Bedford

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostTue Nov 20, 2012 11:10 am

I don't get all this comparing to GoPros. It's a completely different camera for entirely different purposes.
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: BMCC 2.0 apsc sensor, 4K XAVC,DNG, 1080 Prores?

PostTue Nov 20, 2012 11:59 am

Nick Bedford wrote:I don't get all this comparing to GoPros. It's a completely different camera for entirely different purposes.


+1 .. wholeheartedly agreeing with Nick

And I also don't get why so many people are (wishfully ;o) thinking that GoPro will come up with some sort of BMCC 2.0 ... it just wouldn't make any sense at all...

Oh and also I wanted to say.. to the funny folks comparing the GoPro from a manufacturing standpoint ("when GoPro announces new model you can buy it a month later everywhere" etc) ... totally different as well. AFAIK they design/plan the Cam themselfes but mass manufacturing is outsourced and happening somewhere in Asia... can't compare a little tight "cheap" action cam with something like the BMC

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