Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cinema C

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shuibin14

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Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cinema C

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 2:18 am

UPDATE: pricing is under $1700 per sensor

The company resonsible for the full frame 35mm CMOS sensor in the new Leica M have made a Super 35mm video version of the technology.

Above is the CMV12000 scientific sensor by European company CMOSIS – it has amazing potential in a cinema camera.

Super 35mm / APS-C sized
4K raw at 12bit (90fps) and 10bit (150fps)
4:3 anamorphic 4,096 x 3,072
Global shutter
This part is ready to be mass produced and is available off the shelf.

Of course it is very early to be talking about what Blackmagic can do next in the cinema camera world.

The BMCC Mark II does not yet exist. But this sensor is hugely exciting.

CMOSIS, who are supplying Leica their cutting edge full frame sensor in the new M rangefinder (I suspect it is this chip, the CMV20000) say the sensor is currently sampling. This means companies can request samples, see what the performance is like and determine how feasible it would be to bundle the chip in their camera.

Like the industrial (scientific) CMOS used in the current Blackmagic Cinema Camera this is also a part designed for scientific imaging, industrial use or broadcast.

Resolution is 12MP and pixel size is similar to the current Blackmagic Cinema Camera’s sensor at 5.5 um. It is designed to output 4K video at 4,096 x 3,072.

At that maximum resolution the aspect ratio is 4:3 like S35mm film. Perfect for an anamorphic mode. The sensor can of course crop this output onboard the sensor for a more usual 16:9, 1.77:1 or 4K2K.

The CMOS also supports reduced resolution 2K for higher frame rates (like 240fps) and sensor windowing modes for a punch-in focus assist. The frame rate at maximum resolution is a mammoth 150fps but that also needs huge power on the image processor side. At this frame rate bit depth drops to 10bit from 12bit. It goes to 90fps with the full colour gamut. I’d be happy with 24p.

There’s an on-chip HDR mode which works in a similar way to Red’s. This boosts dynamic range from 60db to 90db.

60db is around 11 stops of dynamic range. 90db is over 15 stops (similar to the new Red Dragon sensor).

This is the dream sensor for me.

CMOSIS are quite a new company, founded in November 2007. They use other company’s fabs to build their sensors but the sensor design is all in-house, with a small team of 40 people based in Belgium.

Seems like a perfect match for Blackmagic. Leica certainly seem happy enough with CMOSIS’s sensor performance to put one in their flagship.

We’ve already seen how good an industrial / scientific CMOS sensor is in a cinema camera but I have no idea about the pricing of this part. The specs are certainly high end for digital cinema well into Red Dragon / Arri Alexa territory. Hopefully Blackmagic will look into it and see if they can work their pricing magic on a future Super 35mm 4K Blackmagic Cinema Camera. Even if the image processing didn’t make use of all the sensor’s features for reasons of cost (i.e. the higher frame rates or a global shutter) to have a larger Super 35mm sensor and 4K for less than $6000 would be hugely exciting on its own.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/9240/could ... ra-mark-ii
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Ryan McCarvill

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 2:24 am

I would expect them to keep the MFT line for people who have invested in that format for this camera. So an APS-C sensor wouldn't do unless they run two lines, a S35 and a MFT.

But who cares about woulda and coulda, the sensor that they have is fantastic, they have said that it was an exhaustive search for a sensor with the dynamic range and cinematic color characteristics that they wanted.
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Margus Voll

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 8:46 am

seems like 15 + k camera here if you use thats sensor?
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danielschweinert

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 10:03 am

Would be awesome if BMD releases a BMCC Mark II with such a sensor.
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 10:15 am

They plan on using this sensor for Apertus (http://www.apertus.org/) which sounds pretty interesting as well. Would be great to finally have an open platform instead of always waiting for firmware feature xyz to be implemented by some manufacturer (or hoping for some kind of firmware hacks).
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shuibin14

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 12:13 pm

Soeren Mueller wrote:They plan on using this sensor for Apertus (http://www.apertus.org/) which sounds pretty interesting as well. Would be great to finally have an open platform instead of always waiting for firmware feature xyz to be implemented by some manufacturer (or hoping for some kind of firmware hacks).


beautiful!
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Margus Voll

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 12:20 pm

But as said before sensor is just one small part of camera.

There is also need to move that data around and save it to something.

I bet SSD's now are not that fast s one could record uncompressed 4k raw.

Or when it would be compressed there is need for really powerful cpu on that camera as well.

Probably can be done but not on that price range.
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Andrew Hunter

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 3:41 pm

Margus Voll wrote:But as said before sensor is just one small part of camera.

There is also need to move that data around and save it to something.

I bet SSD's now are not that fast s one could record uncompressed 4k raw.

Or when it would be compressed there is need for really powerful cpu on that camera as well.

Probably can be done but not on that price range.


The Aaton Penelope Delta records 16bit uncompressed CinemaDNG to SSDs... 2 of them in a raid-0 array. It's doable right now. It's just the low budget shoots would be whining for eternity.
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Margus Voll

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 3:43 pm

Ok so it is doable. Maybe in 2 years then we see new camera or a year :)
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Noel Sterrett

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 5:09 pm

Andrew Hunter wrote:The Aaton Penelope Delta records 16bit uncompressed CinemaDNG to SSDs... 2 of them in a raid-0 array. It's doable right now. It's just the low budget shoots would be whining for eternity.

Convergent Design also writes to two SSD's but with no RAID. Frame one goes to SSD1, frame two to SSD2, etc. Much simpler.

All BM need do is use two Hyperdecks instead of one to get to 4K.

The real problem is heat.

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Margus Voll

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 5:21 pm

And pricing + post workflow.
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rick.lang

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 8:50 pm

Margus Voll wrote:And pricing + post workflow.


"Perfect" of course isn't just about the specs but about the image it produces. Perhaps the HDR option will provide great results but if not then you're losing dynamic range with that sensor. The pixel element size of 5.5 is smaller than the BMCC's 6.5 and that make affect noise and other qualities. Lots of great specs though so good luck to them.
Rick Lang
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Margus Voll

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 8:53 pm

yes bmc skin tone rendering ability is just stunning so to match with it would be essential
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rick.lang

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 9:03 pm

Margus Voll wrote:yes bmc skin tone rendering ability is just stunning so to match with it would be essential


Just an aside, but this camera has given me a new appreciation of the skin tones of so many people I see in real life. And surprisingly, many of these faces look very challenging in that their skin tones seem flat. Would be very pasty on anything but the best cameras to bring out subtleties of colouration. Will be interesting as we all love recording faces.

Too bad we don't all live in Great Britain or Australia and New Zealand that seem to have more "peaches and cream" visages to film.

Am I going stir crazy?
Rick Lang
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostThu Nov 22, 2012 9:39 pm

rick.lang wrote:Too bad we don't all live in Great Britain or Australia and New Zealand that seem to have more "peaches and cream" visages to film.

Am I going stir crazy?


lol sounds like it rick :D
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danielschweinert

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostSun Nov 25, 2012 9:52 am

Which component do you exactly think is producing the excessive heat?
If the CPU/GPU is the culprit you have to use parallel processing like in nowadays tablets. They have 4 lower clocked GPU cores to split the work/temperature and still get realtime anything.

I had insight in camera manufacturing and if I do a comparison, then the technology that we use in todays tablets and toys are by far more advanced. Huge camera manufacturers are still on the classy side (Im not talking about BMD here). Most of the built-in camera components in todays cameras are great but not used to their fullest potential. They intentionally use crippled firmware to lock things away or they just don't implement it, what looks weird from our viewpoint.

But keep in mind they can't afford to release a super duper 4K camera without any intentional flaws because then there is not much room for future improvement to make more profit.

In example I had a camcorder from 2005 that was back then capable of outputting 2K 12bit RGB 4:4:4 after modding and it didn't cost 10 grand :-) like todays canon cinema line with only 8bit 1080p. Insiders know what Im talking about.
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Margus Voll

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Re: Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cine

PostSun Nov 25, 2012 10:29 am

sensors heat up. look canon dslr will heat up in 10 minutes in some circumstances and will shut down.
red had the same problem.

so geting the heat out of the camera is always a problem and will cost.
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