BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

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denis_levkovich@yahoo.com

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BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostWed Nov 28, 2012 8:26 pm

Please tell me it was my incompetence, an old demo model or a bad sales guy, because:

Just played around with Blackmagic Design's new 2.5K camera. Three huge drawbacks that stop me from buying it:
- Iris is controlled with combination of two buttons (iris and arrow), which means you can't hold the camera with one hand and operate it with the other (at least if you use EF lenses that have no iris ring on them). Might be different for MFT, but who gives a ... Also, you can't see on the screen what the F stop it currently set to.
- The camera can not be white balanced manually. You can set the color temp manually, but with 500K intervals only, which means you can do 2500K and 3000K but not 2700K. It wouldn't be such a disaster, if you would only use it in the 2.5K RAW mode (which means you can change your WB in post), but for ProRes it becomes an issue.
- No live audio levels indication on the screen???? Come on!

It is entirely possible that these issues will be addressed by the time the camera actually goes on sale, but the Adorama salesman who demonstrated it to me at Washington's Government Video Expo was as buffled as I was to the camera's lack of essential functionality.

I'm sure the well esteemed team of professional at Blackmagic Design had professionals of some high acclaim consult them on the functionality cameramen/women use in their work, but how the hell did they overlook such important stuff!!!

Very disappointed. I was about to buy these!
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostWed Nov 28, 2012 8:35 pm

All known, all firmware updates in the future.

Lots of info on the boards, take a glance around and welcome. =]
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David

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostWed Nov 28, 2012 8:35 pm

Well I'm just going to throw my BMC in the trash right now! Who needs this garbage?

Thanks for pointing this out! You're a peach!!!
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rick.lang

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostWed Nov 28, 2012 9:09 pm

denis_levkovich@yahoo.com wrote:Please tell me it was my incompetence, an old demo model or a bad sales guy....


INCOMPETENCE?
Not your incompetence but just your forgivable ignorance as these items are well documented in the forums and as you suggested will likely be addressed in future firmware updates.

OLD DEMO?
The latest update is 1.1 with 1.2 expected shortly. You may have been using firmware version 1.0 for the demo.

BAD SALES GUY?
If I can't say something nice about someone, best not to say anything at all.

Not sure why you are dismissive of the BMCC MFT mount as that at least requires you to set and change your iris manually.

Sorry your initial impressions were so disappointing but after reflecting upon the experience, you may still find other things that will draw you to the camera at a later date. And since there's a large back order to be filled, you'll have some time before you can walk into a store and see that the latest firmware at that time meets your requirements. Good luck in that future encounter with the camera in your hands.
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rick.lang

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostWed Nov 28, 2012 9:15 pm

David wrote:Well I'm just going to throw my BMC in the trash right now! Who needs this garbage?

Thanks for pointing this out! You're a peach!!!


That's going to be a great find for the next person rummaging through your trash looking for a bottle to return! I'm at least taking my camera to the recycling depot or my girls will be mad at me. :)
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostWed Nov 28, 2012 9:52 pm

denis_levkovich@yahoo.com wrote:Please tell me it was my incompetence


No offense here, but probably yes.

;)

Just kidding, but you have to understand the concept.

denis_levkovich@yahoo.com wrote:P
- Iris is controlled with combination of two buttons (iris and arrow), which means you can't hold the camera with one hand and operate it with the other (at least if you use EF lenses that have no iris ring on them).


It's called "CINEMA" camera. You don't hold a cinema camera in your hand and fiddle with the iris - that's EB territory and therefore you need a different camera, made for that sort of shooting. For most cinematic shooting you would use full manual primes anyway, so that's not a deal breaker IMHO

denis_levkovich@yahoo.com wrote:...but for ProRes it becomes an issue.


Not at all. Folks grading the sh..t out of 10 bit ProRes for years, it's pretty robust and a little temperature tweaking could never break it.

denis_levkovich@yahoo.com wrote:....No live audio levels indication on the screen???? Come on!


For serious work, you want a proper offboard screen anyway.
Get one with audio levels, so you have them where you can see them and not in the back of the camera (even if they come with a firmware update)

But maybe that camera isn't for you.

Frank
http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/

I told you so :-)
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Bradley Olsen

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostThu Nov 29, 2012 1:52 am

the only complaint I think is an issue for me is not seeing the F-Stop. Yeah, a lens with a manual iris ring is preferable, but a lot of lenses people already have don't have an iris ring.

But these issues can be fixed with firmware updates. Certainly they're not deal breakers considering what the camera costs and gives you in return...
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Nick Bedford

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostThu Nov 29, 2012 3:16 am

Being 200 Kelvin off the correct white balance in ProRes is a non event. The ProRes capture is very much a grading friendly option.
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Cuboirs

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostThu Nov 29, 2012 3:29 pm

denis_levkovich@yahoo.com wrote:Please tell me it was my incompetence, an old demo model or a bad sales guy, because:

Just played around with Blackmagic Design's new 2.5K camera. Three huge drawbacks that stop me from buying it:
- Iris is controlled with combination of two buttons (iris and arrow), which means you can't hold the camera with one hand and operate it with the other (at least if you use EF lenses that have no iris ring on them). Might be different for MFT, but who gives a ... Also, you can't see on the screen what the F stop it currently set to.
- The camera can not be white balanced manually. You can set the color temp manually, but with 500K intervals only, which means you can do 2500K and 3000K but not 2700K. It wouldn't be such a disaster, if you would only use it in the 2.5K RAW mode (which means you can change your WB in post), but for ProRes it becomes an issue.
- No live audio levels indication on the screen???? Come on!

It is entirely possible that these issues will be addressed by the time the camera actually goes on sale, but the Adorama salesman who demonstrated it to me at Washington's Government Video Expo was as buffled as I was to the camera's lack of essential functionality.

I'm sure the well esteemed team of professional at Blackmagic Design had professionals of some high acclaim consult them on the functionality cameramen/women use in their work, but how the hell did they overlook such important stuff!!!

Very disappointed. I was about to buy these!


I'm kinda with you on this one Denis ,I too wonder why these simple things weren't added from the beginning or overlooked .THese are clearly things that are needed as they are not just extras .How some people don't really care about it and say ohhh we'll get it in a firmware just puzzles me.

I'm sure camera will be great but not until all needed features are added until then it's like a pool without water.
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostThu Nov 29, 2012 4:37 pm

I think, that one of the biggest image problems the BMC has is, that with the low price and the design of a DSLR, a lot of folks think, this IS actually just like a DSLR, with all the hobbyist/consumer convenience gadgets on board. They can't understand, that most professional cinema cameras don't feature all that stuff - for example iris control without a ring on the lens, or build in monitor.

As I said, this is a pure minimalist production workhorse for professionals, that can handle a pro shooting style and workflow. The average Joe wedding shooter will not be happy with the BMC. There are a ton of better suited cameras out there for this guys, like a C100/C300 or FS100.
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Jesuan Soriano

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostThu Nov 29, 2012 5:27 pm

I agree with Frank. The other day on twitter I read it still needs lots of features to be a pro camera....so...I assume a 5D is a really pro camera but a BMCC isn't...mmmm....mmmm....mmmmmm.....mmmmm...mmmm...


Jesus
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denis_levkovich@yahoo.com

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostThu Nov 29, 2012 5:34 pm

I understand the concept of a cinema camera.
But BMDCC is specifically created for EF lens users in mind. Now you would't be using EF lenses as a filmmaker, if you didn't use Canon 5D MK2 or MK3, right? So the question about iris control is bnatural who's done more than his fare share of 5D shooting.
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostThu Nov 29, 2012 5:43 pm

denis_levkovich@yahoo.com wrote:I understand the concept of a cinema camera.
But BMDCC is specifically created for EF lens users in mind. Now you would't be using EF lenses as a filmmaker, if you didn't use Canon 5D MK2 or MK3, right? So the question about iris control is bnatural who's done more than his fare share of 5D shooting.


This is a very fair and solid point, and yeah the original statements were that they were going after the 5D/DSLR crowd, who would definitely be used to seeing aperture readouts. It is important to have knowledge of stops when you consider covering your scene, matching is very very important, and sometimes you want to open up and close down again, play a little to make sure. Although it is not the primary way to work with Epic, when you use the EF mount the glass does give you a read-out of stop (and focal distance, etc.), I don't believe anyone would argue that Epic is not a cinema camera because of that, no? =P

In my own case, I strive to use manual glass, anyway, and I think the MFT is a better fit for m'self so it's not a big deal to me.

So, I agree, there are a lot of things that are missing that would be great to have, yet they aren't going to be left out. =] THey're coming, and I personally don't think that any of them outweigh the good things that we get with the camera.
Last edited by Kholi Hicks on Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cuboirs

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostThu Nov 29, 2012 5:48 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:I think, that one of the biggest image problems the BMC has is, that with the low price and the design of a DSLR, a lot of folks think, this IS actually just like a DSLR, with all the hobbyist/consumer convenience gadgets on board. They can't understand, that most professional cinema cameras don't feature all that stuff - for example iris control without a ring on the lens, or build in monitor.

As I said, this is a pure minimalist production workhorse for professionals, that can handle a pro shooting style and workflow. The average Joe wedding shooter will not be happy with the BMC. There are a ton of better suited cameras out there for this guys, like a C100/C300 or FS100.


No offense: But I on the other hand believe the problem is people thinking this is an Alexa or an epic.....so so wrong.......it's aimed at the dsrl market ,but vastly different
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostFri Nov 30, 2012 8:23 am

Actually it's aimed for guys like me.
Got my feet wet by shooting 16mm film many years ago, changed over to video cameras and never been satisfied with the quality of all those "compressed-the-sh.t-out-of-it" codecs.

Now it's like coming back to 16mm, but with the connivance of a digital version for me.
That means, usually I shoot in very controlled situations. Weight, size, portability, ergonomics, auto functions or the use of electronic glass andwhatnot, don't play any roll for me. Only picture quality (uncompressed and raw) is, what counts form me.

A lot of folks where expecting something different, because of the price and design/form factor and will be disappointed. I was saying that since my first article, right after NAB. The BMC is nothing you can just wipe out of your backpack, wave it around tourist style - holding it with one hand while focusing with the other - and get great cinematic results. The only way to get great cinematic results is looking at it as a CINEMA camera and treating/working it that way. Look at it as a better DSLR and you will hate it one day.

my ct2,

Frank
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John Waldorff

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostFri Nov 30, 2012 11:36 pm

I do not see as many drawbacks.
I'm coming from 5d and have a lot of Zeiss ZE and other Canon glass.

What would be very desirable is a good way to set aperture control.
Optimized for fast and easy usage.
Probably even with outboard gear.
Being able to set aperature slowly and while holding the camera would be great.

The iris readout is important for many as well, but to me the most important thing is how aperture can be controlled.
The 2 button design seems ok, but there are some keypresses needed before one can enter this as far as I understand and that is not so nice.

Cheers
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David

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostFri Nov 30, 2012 11:52 pm

John Waldorff wrote:I do not see as many drawbacks.
I'm coming from 5d and have a lot of Zeiss ZE and other Canon glass.


The 2 button design seems ok, but there are some keypresses needed before one can enter this as far as I understand and that is not so nice.

Cheers


Nope. Arrow forward or arrow back. Done.... If you can keep count. :D
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James Tonkin

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostSat Dec 01, 2012 12:07 am

None of these drawbacks have stopped me using the BMCC on high profile jobs over the last 3 months. At the end of the day it's image quality is simply better than any camera anywhere near it's price point... and ultimately it's the images it produces which I care about most.
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adamroberts

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostSat Dec 01, 2012 8:49 am

John Waldorff wrote:I'm coming from 5d and have a lot of Zeiss ZE and other Canon glass.

What would be very desirable is a good way to set aperture control.
Optimized for fast and easy usage.
Probably even with outboard gear.
Being able to set aperature slowly and while holding the camera would be great.


The aperture on Canon and Zeiss ZE lenses all step 1/3 of a stop at a time. You will never get smooth slow stepless control from them even on Canon bodies. That is how they are designed.

So the current process of setting the aperture on Canon and Zeiss ZE lenses on the BMCC is not really that different to doing is in a Canon body.

Press the left arrow or right arrow for 1/3 of stop change. You would not want to change it while shooting for the same reason you would not change it while shooting on a Canon body as the steps are visually noticeable.
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rick.lang

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostSun Dec 02, 2012 2:05 am

John Waldorff wrote:What would be very desirable is a good way to set aperture control.
Optimized for fast and easy usage.
Probably even with outboard gear.
Being able to set aperature slowly and while holding the camera would be great.

The iris readout is important for many as well, but to me the most important thing is how aperture can be controlled.


I know it's not a solution that will utilize the number of lenses you currently own, but if aperture control and changing aperture during a shot is very important, would you consider getting some manual ciné lenses for the BMCC MFT version? Of course Canon and Zeiss have ciné lenses too but not inexpensive.
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Bill Rich

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostSun Dec 02, 2012 7:29 pm

I'm seeing some pretty nice things from the new KineRaw S35 Cinema Camera..
they're also coming out with a Super16 and Super8 version..

1. Super35mm Sized CMOS Sensor: Record format 2K or 1080p, 720p; (frame rates up to 60p in 720)
2. Dual RAW Recording: True RAW as CinemaDNG, and Cineform(tm) RAW, 12bits;
3. Interchangeable Mounts: Short FFD KineMount with adapters for various lens mounts; (including EF,PL, etc)
4. 3D LUT: In-camera LUT files as KineLOG/Kine709/KineColor;
5. Multi Configurations support multiple workflows: Feature Movie/Documentary/HDTV;
6. HDMI & 2xSDI: 1080p/720p, support most third party EVFs and monitors;

price.. approximately $6K for the Super35 camera (retail)

Short just shot using the KineRAW S35 cinema camera


Wonder how the KineRAW super35 stacks up to the BMCC..
Bill Rich
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paulkosmala

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostSun Dec 02, 2012 10:31 pm

is the kineraw available now?

also seeing it has 11.5stops of latitude. not fantastic, but better than dslr.
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nicfargo

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Re: BMDCC drawbacks. Very problematic...

PostMon Dec 03, 2012 10:09 pm

If smooth iris control is super important to you, why wouldn't you use a cine lens? The Rokinon's are cheap and hold up pretty well actually. If you're wanting to use your current lenses and there is enough light available, you could always use Vari-ND Filters for smooth transitions between stops.

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