Why isn't in BMC 50i?

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max258

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Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 4:01 pm

Hello, I've question about firmware.
Why isn't there 50i but there is 25p.
I know all about theory, but there is so many situations to need it there.
Is it possible have next firmware this update?
I think is nothing in hardware but software.
50i will be very welcome for me.
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Andrew Hunter

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 6:06 pm

Interlaced formats need to die.
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Tom

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 6:16 pm

Andrew Hunter wrote:Interlaced formats need to die.


+1,000,000
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 6:16 pm

Andrew Hunter wrote:Interlaced formats need to die.


+1 I'd much prefer 48p and/or 50/60p
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max258

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 7:31 pm

Thats nice, but when will be there 50p it will be fantastic, but there isn't, maybe for large data flow.
But 50i isn't large and isn't 25p.

BTW: I don't think there is possible software update for 50p, but for 50i maybe yes.
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Bill Rich

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 8:05 pm

The BMCC is marketed as a Cinema Camera and not a broadcast camera, so there is no need for interlacing.
You can easily edit your video in 25p and encode the final output to 50i. or transcode it to 50i before editing.
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Nick Bedford

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 8:31 pm

Yeah, as much as broadcast may need interlaced, interlaced isn't good for this camera.
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max258

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 8:34 pm

Thank you for information, of course I agree, is it cinema low-cost camera.
But, there is little idea work with this camera in other than movies also.
Who tell the question: Yes, it's perfect for me, but I'll be happy have 50i also?
This is me question too.
50p is ideal (large data flow), 25p is good (chop effect is there)
50i is good (the effect isn't presented)
Maybe is it habit 25p, but for audience is better 50i - no chopping (amateur little audience/one person).
Example: I play movie in 25p and second 50i and the answer from people was: The first has something wrong (amateur), the second better.
Yes is it cinema cam, but I mean the question is good, why not 50i?

PS Hobbit was filmed in 48p
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 8:49 pm

I don't know anyone who thinks 24/25p looks amateur. Interlaced has always looked more amateur and like garbage to me... Interlaced was for the CRT days, who uses a CRT anymore?
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Costa Louvieris

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 9:23 pm

I think he means its better for panning/movement (he's not wrong). Like everything in the camera world, it depends on the application and what you are shooting.
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 9:35 pm

I don´t get the "25p looks amateur" thing...
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 10:05 pm

Yes and no. If you record and broadcast interlaced(50i), but watch it on a non-CRT monitor, the monitor engine has a hard time to make this scan lines go away while panning - what it does is, it blurs the sh..t out of it - that's why it looks smoother.

You might as well expose longer than 180 deg to get a bit more motion blur.

For the record - if a film, shot on film, printed on film and projected on film, you don't see much strobing in the cinema, cause the motion blur is much more organic (and actual more blurry) as the digital versions.
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 10:26 pm

Full ack @ "interlaced has to die"... can't believe that its nearly 2013 and there is still interlaced around.. this technical abomination *sigh*

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Roland Öller

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostThu Dec 13, 2012 11:51 pm

I asked a Blackmagic engineer about the possibility of interlaced at the IBC and he couldn't give me a quick yes or no answer.
There seems to be more to it than a simple software update.

I got the impression from him that they hadn't really considered doing interlaced. He even asked me what I needed it for. :D

The anser is simple: Television.
Some stations demand it so it would be nice to be able to shoot it with the BMCC.
I don't like working with interlaced either but unfortunately we will be stuck with this "dinosaur" in television-land for a long time. ;)

But I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed if it didn't happen with the BMCC.
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 3:12 am

But you could always convert to 50i from 50p (should the BMC ever get that). Or even "fake" 50i from 25p.. I think all TV stations show progressive material at some point (movies etc) ..would seem really strange to me if theres a TV Station that would only except "real" interlaced.. and if so, then you shouldnt use the BMC to produce something for them (as it would be Too Good anyways) ;)
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 4:47 am

Soeren Mueller wrote:But you could always convert to 50i from 50p (should the BMC ever get that). Or even "fake" 50i from 25p.. I think all TV stations show progressive material at some point (movies etc) ..would seem really strange to me if theres a TV Station that would only except "real" interlaced.. and if so, then you shouldnt use the BMC to produce something for them (as it would be Too Good anyways) ;)


What do you mean fake 50i from 25p? That would be 50i proper.... each frame made in to 2 fields at half the vertical detail to make 50i. It's basically 25psf. It was basically an old way of compression... to reduce the bandwidth for television etc...
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 5:23 am

Andrew Hunter wrote:Interlaced formats need to die.

+1
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 6:58 am

Costa Louvieris wrote:What do you mean fake 50i from 25p? That would be 50i proper.... each frame made in to 2 fields at half the vertical detail to make 50i. It's basically 25psf. It was basically an old way of compression... to reduce the bandwidth for television etc...


I wrote "fake" because with a 25p source each of the two fields would stem from the same source frame so in the end it would still equal the progressive frame, just "chopped up" into a 50i stream. Normally each interlaced field (half vertical res) would be from a different point in time (sensor sampled 50 times a second) ..
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 7:07 am

Almost every blockbuster film that's made it to TV started out as a progressive source (normally 24p).
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 7:45 am

You do not need to have interlace at your edit bay.

Just when you send it out to tv your final file may have then fields in it as tv asks for it tech to handle.

Works like charm around here.

In grading and cgi work interlaced is royal pain and you will want to do what ever to remove it.

If you are mostly in tv production then bmc may not be your camera after all.
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Costa Louvieris

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 9:10 am

Margus Voll wrote:You do not need to have interlace at your edit bay.

Just when you send it out to tv your final file may have then fields in it as tv asks for it tech to handle.

Works like charm around here.

In grading and cgi work interlaced is royal pain and you will want to do what ever to remove it.

If you are mostly in tv production then bmc may not be your camera after all.


Whose talking about editing interlaced? For example, I want the BMCC to work with the ATEM 1 M/E that we own which supports 1080 50i only. Therefore I would like another BMD device to work with it. Simple really.
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 9:41 am

ok you want it to be studio camera instead of cinema camera.

that explains it.
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 9:46 am

Margus Voll wrote:ok you want it to be studio camera instead of cinema camera.

that explains it.


I want it to be versatile;)
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 9:57 am

To the 'Hobbit was shot 48' argument - yes it was, and it looks like HDTV. Awful.

I understand why you want 50i for TV, but please don't start talking about 48/50 fps looking better for film... They are NOT the same thing - 50i is essentially 25 frames per second in two halves. 50P is 50 full frames per second - double the frame rate.

Film needs motion blur, there is such a thing as too much detail, and too sharp an image - believe it or not. Most of us are Cinematographers here. I firmly believe 24p helps the viewer to suspend their disbelief most effectively - everything is slightly more vague, there is more time for the viewer to 'fill in the blanks' in their perception of the image.

To get the best out of the camera for TV, you should shoot in 25P, and interlace in post to 50i. That way you'll get less tearing and issues introduced by interlacing, whilst retaining the most cinematic image. If you're not fussed about that then this camera isn't for you.
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Costa Louvieris

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 10:04 am

Luke Armstrong wrote:To the 'Hobbit was shot 48' argument - yes it was, and it looks like HDTV. Awful.

I understand why you want 50i for TV, but please don't start talking about 48/50 fps looking better for film... They are NOT the same thing - 50i is essentially 25 frames per second in two halves. 50P is 50 full frames per second - double the frame rate.

Film needs motion blur, there is such a thing as too much detail, and too sharp an image - believe it or not. Most of us are Cinematographers here. I firmly believe 24p helps the viewer to suspend their disbelief most effectively - everything is slightly more vague, there is more time for the viewer to 'fill in the blanks' in their perception of the image.

To get the best out of the camera for TV, you should shoot in 25P, and interlace in post to 50i. That way you'll get less tearing and issues introduced by interlacing, whilst retaining the most cinematic image. If you're not fussed about that then this camera isn't for you.


Wow well said.. someone who knows what they are talking about! However, film was only ever 24p to keep up with the audio track. I'm pretty sure that most film projectors duplicate frames to make 48hz. Yes it's still the same information as 24p but with every frame shown twice (another form of compression).

48fps HFR is 48 NEW frames per second. It wasn't intentional to make that filmic look you talk about, it was a necessity. Now we have the technology with digital film to accomplish 48fps and I think Peter Jackson is trying to pioneer something new with film so people can go to the cinema rather than watch video's on vimeo or youtube.

It doesn't look like we're ready for that tech yet:)
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 10:07 am

It is like home tv's in shops having those insane 100 200 400 800 hz images.

Takes out all the cinematic feel and looks like cheap tv series imo.

I totally hate it personally. Looks like augmented reality :D
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 10:24 am

Costa Louvieris wrote:
Luke Armstrong wrote:To the 'Hobbit was shot 48' argument - yes it was, and it looks like HDTV. Awful.

I understand why you want 50i for TV, but please don't start talking about 48/50 fps looking better for film... They are NOT the same thing - 50i is essentially 25 frames per second in two halves. 50P is 50 full frames per second - double the frame rate.

Film needs motion blur, there is such a thing as too much detail, and too sharp an image - believe it or not. Most of us are Cinematographers here. I firmly believe 24p helps the viewer to suspend their disbelief most effectively - everything is slightly more vague, there is more time for the viewer to 'fill in the blanks' in their perception of the image.

To get the best out of the camera for TV, you should shoot in 25P, and interlace in post to 50i. That way you'll get less tearing and issues introduced by interlacing, whilst retaining the most cinematic image. If you're not fussed about that then this camera isn't for you.


Wow well said.. someone who knows what they are talking about! However, film was only ever 24p to keep up with the audio track. I'm pretty sure that most film projectors duplicate frames to make 48hz. Yes it's still the same information as 24p but with every frame shown twice (another form of compression).

48fps HFR is 48 NEW frames per second. It wasn't intentional to make that filmic look you talk about, it was a necessity. Now we have the technology with digital film to accomplish 48fps and I think Peter Jackson is trying to pioneer something new with film so people can go to the cinema rather than watch video's on vimeo or youtube.

It doesn't look like we're ready for that tech yet:)


Yup you are correct. Personally I think it was a happy accident - thank god for sound!
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Nick Shaw

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 2:00 pm

Luke Armstrong wrote:50i is essentially 25 frames per second in two halves. 50P is 50 full frames per second - double the frame rate.


I am not an advocate of interlacing by any means, but being pedantic I disagree with your statement that "50i is essentially 25 frames per second in two halves". 50 fields per second still has 50 separate "samples in time" per second, so is closer in appearance to the viewer to 50p than 25p (albeit with lower vertical resolution.) This is if it is shown properly at 50Hz. If the TV has a cheap de-interlacer one field will be dropped, and it will look like bad 25p.

To get the best out of the camera for TV, you should shoot in 25P, and interlace in post to 50i. That way you'll get less tearing and issues introduced by interlacing, whilst retaining the most cinematic image. If you're not fussed about that then this camera isn't for you.


I agree you will have a cinematic image, but this is not what the OP was asking about. If you "interlace in post to 50i" you will get 25psf, not 50i. That is unless you are using optical flow interpolation to create different temporal samples, for the second field. But if you are having to go to the trouble of doing that, then yes you really are using the wrong camera!

If you are getting "tearing and issues introduced by interlacing" then you are using a workflow which does not handle interlacing correctly.

But to repeat, I don't like interlacing either (or 48, 50 or 60p for that matter) but I'm just trying to be technically accurate.
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max258

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 2:01 pm

Ok, when not 50i, then not.

But I change my question, 50p for Europe.
I think this is really clear question.
Do you think so?
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 2:10 pm

Nick Shaw wrote: I am not an advocate of interlacing by any means, but being pedantic I disagree with your statement that "50i is essentially 25 frames per second in two halves". 50 fields per second still has 50 separate "samples in time" per second, so is closer in appearance to the viewer to 50p than 25p (albeit with lower vertical resolution.) This is if it is shown properly at 50Hz. If the TV has a cheap de-interlacer one field will be dropped, and it will look like bad 25p.
Nick Shaw wrote:I agree you will have a cinematic image, but this is not what the OP was asking about. If you "interlace in post to 50i" you will get 25psf, not 50i. That is unless you are using optical flow interpolation to create different temporal samples, for the second field. But if you are having to go to the trouble of doing that, then yes you really are using the wrong camera!

If you are getting "tearing and issues introduced by interlacing" then you are using a workflow which does not handle interlacing correctly.

But to repeat, I don't like interlacing either (or 48, 50 or 60p for that matter) but I'm just trying to be technically accurate.


Yes, I was dumbing down the the facts a little bit to make my point...Hence "essentially" I know what you're saying, you're correct, but my point was those 50i frames are not 50 unique frames as with progressive, they're just 25 pairs, yes they sample time independently - that can exaggerate rolling shutter issues under some circumstances such as a whip pan (which was what I was referring to by tearing).

You couldn't take your 50i and convert it to 50p, but you could convert your 50i to 25p.

max258 wrote:Ok, when not 50i, then not.

But I change my question, 50p for Europe.
I think this is really clear question.
Do you think so?


If you're asking for 50p, sure - we'd all like higher frame rates, but you probably won't get it in this version of the BMCC because of the hardware issues surrounding it. There are already ten's of threads about this.

There are plenty of great cameras out there for exactly the kind of application you're talking about. I used to own the Panasonic AF101 which shot all those frame rates you mentioned. With the AF101A - which shoots 10bit colour, and a Hyperdeck/Atomos you could have 10bit Prores at any frame rate you please between 12-60 fps.

Granted, it is a little more expensive - but if you're shooting for broadcast you'll have the money and it is an investment, and the cost will work out the same as the BMCC after you've rigged it. I would urge you to look at those options properly because you seem to be coming from a TV frame of mind, and the Black Magic Cinema Camera is simply not designed or marketed at TV shooters.
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 2:59 pm

Margus Voll wrote:It is like home tv's in shops having those insane 100 200 400 800 hz images.

Takes out all the cinematic feel and looks like cheap tv series imo.

I totally hate it personally. Looks like augmented reality :D


High refresh rates on displays are actually a good thing. Faster LCD response times mean less ghosting, ie the physical medium displaying part of the previous frame over the current one. Film projectors actually have 7+ blades to their shutters. Flashing the image more times assists with the persistence of vision effect that lets us perceive the moving image.

What manufacturer's do with that faster response time is different all together. Always turn off any motion flow or frame interpolation, that is what gives it the HFR soap opera effect.
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 3:56 pm

Andrew Hunter wrote:
Margus Voll wrote:It is like home tv's in shops having those insane 100 200 400 800 hz images.

Takes out all the cinematic feel and looks like cheap tv series imo.

I totally hate it personally. Looks like augmented reality :D


High refresh rates on displays are actually a good thing. Faster LCD response times mean less ghosting, ie the physical medium displaying part of the previous frame over the current one. Film projectors actually have 7+ blades to their shutters. Flashing the image more times assists with the persistence of vision effect that lets us perceive the moving image.

What manufacturer's do with that faster response time is different all together. Always turn off any motion flow or frame interpolation, that is what gives it the HFR soap opera effect.


I've also noticed a lot of televisions come with sharpening and gamma/saturation correction switched on by default these days. Leave that crap at the door!
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 3:58 pm

it would be great to have wide gamut panel with nice turner at home :)

regular tv's have to much filtering rubbish in them.
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 6:54 pm

Maybe we all could agree that it would be useful if the BMCC could output it's 25p signal to the SDI output as an option in 50i (that would be 25psf). Because:

- You could use the camera with the ATEM switchers - Would be a perfect low cost camera with high quaility!
- There is no official support for 1080p25 on single line 1,5G HD-SDI
- You could use any standard HD-SDI monitor with the BMCC camera

So if BMD would add the ability to switch the HD-SDI output to 50i while displaying always 25p (both half-frames display the same time position) this would be a huge argument for every ATEM owner to buy this camera.

Cheers

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 7:02 pm

I consider the BMCC as a more high end cinema camera.

If it's going to dip its feet into the TV broadcasting world, it has to support other things like genlock, higher frame rates etc.

I don't think they should have a half-hearted implementation.

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 7:12 pm

Definitely agree, interlaced needs to die and should have a long time ago. What's needed is higher frame rate progressive.
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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 7:15 pm

Do you have a HD-SDI monitor that can work with 1080p over HD-SDI (SMPTE292M) to be used with the BMCC? I know a lot of monitors that don't support that. So happy try and error!

A 50i output that is supported by !ALL! HD-SDI monitors would be really useful and more professional than only providing an unusual output format that just a few monitors can display!

Cheers

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 7:25 pm

Penta Pro2HD seems to work perfectly on 1080p ?

http://www.hd2line.com/products/hd2-line-pro/pdp-24w/
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Robert Betzner

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 7:29 pm

Yes it works with 3G HD-SDI 1080p. But the question is: will it work with the standard 1,5G (SMPTE292M) on 1080p?

This is an undocumented format that is not specified in the specs of SMPTE292M HD-SDI. And BMD says that the BMCC outputs a SMPTE292M (standard 1,5G) HD-SDI signal. That is something that I can't understand because 1080p is not supposed to be used with that HD-SDI standard. It should be 3G HD-SDI or dual channel HD-SDI if you want to use 1080p.

Cheers

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Margus Voll

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 7:30 pm

yes i'm using it like so.

we had no 3g activated until yesterday.

works like a charm.

btw. 3g is in the monitor but activated by license :)
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Robert Betzner

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 7:34 pm

OK great - so we found the first monitor that can display 1080p over SMPTE292M HD-SDI. But I think there will be much more monitors that cannot display that signal than those who can work with a non-standard HD-SDI signal.

Cheers

pro
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Margus Voll

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 7:38 pm

maybe it is due to the price range also ?

this one was some 5 or 6 k €
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adamroberts

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostFri Dec 14, 2012 8:34 pm

Luke Armstrong wrote:There are plenty of great cameras out there for exactly the kind of application you're talking about. I used to own the Panasonic AF101 which shot all those frame rates you mentioned. With the AF101A - which shoots 10bit colour, and a Hyperdeck/Atomos you could have 10bit Prores at any frame rate you please between 12-60 fps.
.


Agree, there ate many options better suited but just a note... The Atomos Ninja and Samurai can only record up to 1080p30 (or 1080i60).

Same applies to the Hyperdeck and most other affordable external recorders.

Due to the data rate required apparently.

The Convergent Designs Genini 4:4:4 can do 1080p80.
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Michael Phillips

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostSat Dec 15, 2012 3:22 pm

Broadcaster introduced interlaced way back when as a form of compression when broadcasting the signals as the full progressive frames were too big. I also agree that interlace needs to go away, and in the meantime, high frame rate broadcasting uses 720p so they can get 50p and 60p and others use 1080i with either 2:3 pulldown inserted for 24, etc. 10800p/50 and 60 do exist - and Sony makes the cameras. Some NLE's already support it, but not common yet for broadcasting. 1080p/60 may be used in sports for the slomo, etc.

With interlace versus progressive it is a trade-off between vertical resolution and motion resolution when looking at 25p versus 50i. 50i is twice the motion resolution at half the vertical resolution.

While in the homes, it's probably still a 50/50 split worldwide between CRT and flat panel screens (haven't seen data recently), keep in mind that every other viewing device used by video consumers is progressive - internet and mobile. Progressive will always look good on interlace type displays, but the reverse is not always true.

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Nick Shaw

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Re: Why isn't in BMC 50i?

PostSat Dec 15, 2012 9:23 pm

It may be worth noting that the RED Epic does not output psf from its SDI outputs either. It has been my experience that most modern monitors do support 1080p25 over single link SDI, but there are certainly quite a few older ones still in use which do not, and require 1080psf25 (i.e. 1080i50).

Although many monitors support 1080p25, I recently tried to find a budget switcher which supported that, in order to do mix and overlay on an Epic shoot. I was unable to find one, even when I looked at less budget models. We ended up using QTake HD.
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