Blackmagic Forum

http://nofilmschool.com/2012/12/canon-4 ... more-37991

take a look at the article above. my question is which image is better comparing canons 4k motion and BMCC DNG's? i would think BMCC would win because it is a raw format compared to canons motion jpeg for its 4k i believe.

Howard Hughes wrote:http://nofilmschool.com/2012/12/canon-4k-dslr-1d-c-hybrid-photo-video-camera/#more-37991

take a look at the article above. my question is which image is better comparing canons 4k motion and BMCC DNG's? i would think BMCC would win because it is a raw format compared to canons motion jpeg for its 4k i believe.

It is what it is: 2.5K uncompressed 12-bit RAW vs. 4K compressed 8-bit h.264.

You're discussing a $3,000 camera and a $12,000 camera ... somewhat apples & oranges I think.

I'll hazard a guess that the 2.5K can look better than the 4K in terms of color quality and fewer compression artifacts, but of course the 4K is higher resolution.

Depends on your priorities, budget, etc.

what peter said.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:

Howard Hughes wrote:http://nofilmschool.com/2012/12/canon-4k-dslr-1d-c-hybrid-photo-video-camera/#more-37991

take a look at the article above. my question is which image is better comparing canons 4k motion and BMCC DNG's? i would think BMCC would win because it is a raw format compared to canons motion jpeg for its 4k i believe.

It is what it is: 2.5K uncompressed 12-bit RAW vs. 4K compressed 8-bit h.264.

You're discussing a $3,000 camera and a $12,000 camera ... somewhat apples & oranges I think.

I'll hazard a guess that the 2.5K can look better than the 4K in terms of color quality and fewer compression artifacts, but of course the 4K is higher resolution.

Depends on your priorities, budget, etc.

The 1DC shoots 422 motion JPG so compression artefacts should not be too bad. It ought to out resolve a BMCC but if you want to make adjustments to the image then 12 bit raw beats JPEG every day.

Math time.
These numbers are probably wrong
BMCC comparative resolution 1.6k after debayering.
1DC comparative 2.6k after debayering

2.6k with 4.2.2 chroma sub sampling translates to half of the color information or:
1.8k worth of color information.

12-bit is 16x the gradient information than 8-bit.

While the 1dc has more resolution... 12-bit RAW 2.5K translates to a lot more information captured then 8-bit 4k 422 motion jpeg...

Just look at the size of a frame grab if you think otherwise...

Hit 'em with math. It kills a thread every time. LOL.

From what I've seen, and the tests that guys like Macgregor did, 1DC at 4K isn't very good, and its 1080 crop mode is a lot better. The banding/posterization in the 4K file is pretty alarming.

paulkosmala wrote:Math time.
These numbers are probably wrong
BMCC comparative resolution 1.6k after debayering.
1DC comparative 2.6k after debayering

2.6k with 4.2.2 chroma sub sampling translates to half of the color information or:
1.8k worth of color information.

12-bit is 16x the gradient information than 8-bit.

While the 1dc has more resolution... 12-bit RAW 2.5K translates to a lot more information captured then 8-bit 4k 422 motion jpeg...

Just look at the size of a frame grab if you think otherwise...

I need to intern with you. Hahahah!!! You make too much sense. Looked in to your post and learned a lot. Thank you.

BetaEcho wrote:

paulkosmala wrote:Math time.
These numbers are probably wrong
BMCC comparative resolution 1.6k after debayering.
1DC comparative 2.6k after debayering

2.6k with 4.2.2 chroma sub sampling translates to half of the color information or:
1.8k worth of color information.

12-bit is 16x the gradient information than 8-bit.

While the 1dc has more resolution... 12-bit RAW 2.5K translates to a lot more information captured then 8-bit 4k 422 motion jpeg...

Just look at the size of a frame grab if you think otherwise...

I need to intern with you. Hahahah!!! You make too much sense. Looked in to your post and learned a lot. Thank you.

I'm sure I made a mistake somewhere.

And yes, math kills threads. my bad.

paulkosmala wrote:

BetaEcho wrote:

paulkosmala wrote:Math time.
These numbers are probably wrong
BMCC comparative resolution 1.6k after debayering.
1DC comparative 2.6k after debayering

2.6k with 4.2.2 chroma sub sampling translates to half of the color information or:
1.8k worth of color information.

12-bit is 16x the gradient information than 8-bit.

While the 1dc has more resolution... 12-bit RAW 2.5K translates to a lot more information captured then 8-bit 4k 422 motion jpeg...

Just look at the size of a frame grab if you think otherwise...

I need to intern with you. Hahahah!!! You make too much sense. Looked in to your post and learned a lot. Thank you.

I'm sure I made a mistake somewhere.

And yes, math kills threads. my bad.

Your only mathematical mistake was
trying to compare a $2,999.00 camera to a $12,000.00 camera
no harm done otherwise.

point is still made, 3.3MB from a 1dc (which is pretty good) < 5.1MB from a BMCC.

Hey guys, as a filmmaker, that was a tough decision that my crew and I made. Do we go for resolving power or do we go for wider dynamic range and bit info - 12bit RAW. I do believe that it really will be up to the eye of the person behind the lens. However these are very exciting times. Check out this BMCC video released yesterday by Andrew Julian. . Pause the frame anywhere. This is filled with beautiful imagery. (download the full resolution version so you can appreciate it -plug it into your big screen.

As of this date January 24, 2013, the BMCC is great for controlled shoots. 1DC, C100, C300 great for documentaries and live events. Once we have Fstop, Battery percentage, and SSD recording space info, this can easily change. Then of course when the BMCC releases the MFT active, then the BMCC Super35 sensor, the BMCC 4k, they will have something special to compete with Canon.

Canon has followers that have collections of glass. They have a longer history. If this is how good the BMCC is at 2.5k, once we get into TRUE 4k (something only the likes of the Sony F65 has accomplished), I have high hopes their 4k camera will blow people away.

For now I think in terms of filmic image, the BMCC wins. In terms of resolving power, 1DC. Value? BMCC for sure. (Yes I'm including Free full copy of Davinci in this value).

Darryl Gregory wrote:
Your only mathematical mistake was
trying to compare a $2,999.00 camera to a $12,000.00 camera
no harm done otherwise.

Well just because the 1DC is sold for $12,000.00 - that does not make it a $12,000.00 camera.

paulkosmala wrote:

BetaEcho wrote:

paulkosmala wrote:Math time.
These numbers are probably wrong
BMCC comparative resolution 1.6k after debayering.
1DC comparative 2.6k after debayering

2.6k with 4.2.2 chroma sub sampling translates to half of the color information or:
1.8k worth of color information.

12-bit is 16x the gradient information than 8-bit.

While the 1dc has more resolution... 12-bit RAW 2.5K translates to a lot more information captured then 8-bit 4k 422 motion jpeg...

Just look at the size of a frame grab if you think otherwise...

I need to intern with you. Hahahah!!! You make too much sense. Looked in to your post and learned a lot. Thank you.

I'm sure I made a mistake somewhere.

And yes, math kills threads. my bad.

To clarify I meant that sincerely by the way. Cheers!

Frank Glencairn wrote:

Darryl Gregory wrote:
Your only mathematical mistake was
trying to compare a $2,999.00 camera to a $12,000.00 camera
no harm done otherwise.

Well just because the 1DC is sold for $12,000.00 - that does not make it a $12,000.00 camera.

I was going to say that, Frank!

eddietor wrote:Hey guys, as a filmmaker, that was a tough decision that my crew and I made. Do we go for resolving power or do we go for wider dynamic range and bit info - 12bit RAW. I do believe that it really will be up to the eye of the person behind the lens. However these are very exciting times. Check out this BMCC video released yesterday by Andrew Julian. . Pause the frame anywhere. This is filled with beautiful imagery. (download the full resolution version so you can appreciate it -plug it into your big screen.

As of this date January 24, 2013, the BMCC is great for controlled shoots. 1DC, C100, C300 great for documentaries and live events. Once we have Fstop, Battery percentage, and SSD recording space info, this can easily change. Then of course when the BMCC releases the MFT active, then the BMCC Super35 sensor, the BMCC 4k, they will have something special to compete with Canon.

Canon has followers that have collections of glass. They have a longer history. If this is how good the BMCC is at 2.5k, once we get into TRUE 4k (something only the likes of the Sony F65 has accomplished), I have high hopes their 4k camera will blow people away.

For now I think in terms of filmic image, the BMCC wins. In terms of resolving power, 1DC. Value? BMCC for sure. (Yes I'm including Free full copy of Davinci in this value).

Well. i've been saying we need true 4k for a while now...
we have the aaton delta thing that's a CCD true 3.5k sensor - uncompressed RAW... and i think 12 or 16-bit rate... not 100% on that. that's got awesome features... but is also about $120k or so.

all the calculations are based on the assumption that the BMCC is 4:4:4

but its got a 2.5k sensor and outputing 2.5k video

doesn't that make it 4:2:0?

at best 4:2:2 which is same as the canon?

and 4:2:2 of 4k = in very very crude terms, 2.8k of colour information, not 1.8k like you say...