BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

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Jamie Hammond

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BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSat Jun 27, 2015 4:44 pm

Hi,
Firstly I have been a DP for nearly 10 years and have spent 25 years in the television and film industry. In that time I have owned a lot of cameras. A couple of months back I bought into the idea of the URSA for the corporate arm of work that I was doing and a couple of weeks back the camera was put through its paces on relaxed but busy, fully crewed corporate shoot. Now a few of these issues will hopefully be addressed in new firmware updates, most of which should have been applied before the camera was launched but a couple of issues are unacceptable and Ill cover those first.

CAMERA SET UP:
FIRMWARE: V2.3
SHOOTING: 1080p Prores 422
CARDS: Lexar Professional 3400x 64GB CFAST 2.0


1) Pink noise corruption on clips: This happened at the tail end of the shoot, we were running behind a little and the camera had been on a crane for an opening piece. Only by chance did I ask for a playback check on the next set-up did we discover that the last four shots had pink screens. Without this fluke playback I would have got back to the edit with no opening shot to a film and have had to re-shoot costing thousands.

Now to make matters worse, the engineers report said that Black Magic are aware of this issue and have issue a work around. WHY WERE WE NOT INFORMED OF THIS?

There should have been an emergency mailing stating this to every owner, at least then we would be able to do what we could to stop this happening on expensive professional shoots.

For your information here is the workaround sent to me by the engineers to stop this issue.
'The workaround for this corrupted footage is to perform a short recording after every power cycle, and then to playback in camera. If the footage looks fine then all subsequent recordings will also be fine until the next power cycle of the camera.


In the real world, doing a playback test every time you power down is ridiculous!!!!!


2) The pull out screen is near useless in a daylight environment. The screen is so reflective that the DOP for the day spent the entire shoot on a hot, sunny day under a black drape just to operate the camera. The screen brightness isn't horrendous but the reflectivity make stye screen unusable.

3) We had an issue with the camera fixing to two separate VCT14 camera plates, the camera had to be forced onto both and then strapped down.

4). We could not get a LUT out of the Sdi’s, the agency were constantly asking why the image looked so poor.

5). No timecode control. This is a page one issue, why can we not control timecode, jamming to a sound recordist was hit and miss as the TC out never locked with the recordist kit properly and we only had time of day which was never viewable on any screen. I could set timecode on a camera 25 years ago...

6). The battery indicator doesn’t work with either IDX or SWIT batteries, the indicator said full until the camera died unexpectedly. BM replied by saying the indicator just indicates a battery is attached.....great so we have no warning when shooting until the camera dies. Once again 25 years ago we had a battery indicator.

7). No thumbnails or control over playback is a huge issue for playing back to director. Having thumbnails would have highlighted the corrupt files as well. My 6 year EX3 has thumbnails why not this camera?

The general opinion was, although the pictures are nice enough, the URSA is nowhere near ready for real world shooting, and the corruption issue is a complete no no. The basic timecode, battery indicator, LUTs issue should be addressed asap and large screen is a waste of time outside. Thankfully a viewfinder is on its way, but in all honesty unless I see a considerable advantage by swapping out to the mini, I will be asking for a refund and taking my money to Sony again.....:(

Sorry to be so damning on what could be a great little camera but playing Russian roulette on my shoots is not for me and it shouldn't be for you.

Kind regards

Jamie
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Kevin DeOliveira

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostMon Jun 29, 2015 8:38 pm

For your information here is the workaround sent to me by the engineers to stop this issue.
'The workaround for this corrupted footage is to perform a short recording after every power cycle, and then to playback in camera. If the footage looks fine then all subsequent recordings will also be fine until the next power cycle of the camera.


In the real world, doing a playback test every time you power down is ridiculous!!!!!


This solution is absolutely nuts. Wow. I've been following this issue closely to see how BMD handles the situation. It's not unreasonable to assume the same issue could exist in the ursa mini, which has been worrying me.

But, I'm sad to say I think I'll be canceling my ursa mini preorder after hearing this. I'm not up for another camera with technical issues out of the box. I've already lived through 6months of a BMPC with FPN issues.

Sorry BMD. I'm still rooting for you, but I need a tool I can trust out of the box. Corrupting footage or cards is not a minor bug. This is the reason people are still willing to pay more for other pro brands.

Jamie, I hope the issue gets fixed!
BMPC4k / BMPCC / URSA Mini (Pre-order)
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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostMon Jun 29, 2015 9:17 pm

Jamie Hammond wrote:2) The pull out screen is near useless in a daylight environment. The screen is so reflective that the DOP for the day spent the entire shoot on a hot, sunny day under a black drape just to operate the camera. The screen brightness isn't horrendous but the reflectivity make stye screen unusable.


Yes. It's pretty reflective. Depends on your shooting situation.

Jamie Hammond wrote:3) We had an issue with the camera fixing to two separate VCT14 camera plates, the camera had to be forced onto both and then strapped down.


Was the front screw where the locking lever is loose on the VCT plates? That was my issue. I tightened it with a phillips head screw driver and it locks easily now.

Jamie Hammond wrote:4). We could not get a LUT out of the Sdi’s, the agency were constantly asking why the image looked so poor.


No LUT support out of the SDI yet.


Jamie Hammond wrote:6). The battery indicator doesn’t work with either IDX or SWIT batteries, the indicator said full until the camera died unexpectedly. BM replied by saying the indicator just indicates a battery is attached.....great so we have no warning when shooting until the camera dies. Once again 25 years ago we had a battery indicator.


The battery indicator lets you know you're running off battery or plug. It does not tell you how much battery is left.

Jamie Hammond wrote:
7). No thumbnails or control over playback is a huge issue for playing back to director. Having thumbnails would have highlighted the corrupt files as well. My 6 year EX3 has thumbnails why not this camera?


That would def make it easier.

Jamie Hammond wrote:The general opinion was, although the pictures are nice enough, the URSA is nowhere near ready for real world shooting, and the corruption issue is a complete no no. The basic timecode, battery indicator, LUTs issue should be addressed asap and large screen is a waste of time outside. Thankfully a viewfinder is on its way, but in all honesty unless I see a considerable advantage by swapping out to the mini, I will be asking for a refund and taking my money to Sony again.....:(

Sorry to be so damning on what could be a great little camera but playing Russian roulette on my shoots is not for me and it shouldn't be for you.

Kind regards

Jamie



I definitely understand your issues with the camera here. These features should be enabled but how come no research/testing was done before the shoot? With even just a few minutes with the camera, these issues would have become apparent right away. Was this a rental with no preproduction time?
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Jamie Hammond

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostMon Jun 29, 2015 10:21 pm

Hi,
BM's response to alot of the issues such as Timecode, LUTs and thumbnails was to request as a feature update, they concurd that the screens reflective nature was a problem but many of these issues should be basic out of the box, first firmware features. I dont want 150fps if I cant see the picture or set time code.
The corruption issue is a whole different ball game and is a real game changer.
In regard to prep we tested the day before, we knew we had an issue with the vct but knew another was coming the next day, we still had the same issue with that one. The TC issue was only addressed when the sound recordist turned up.
The screen is useless in all but a cloudy day, even in a studio any lighting behind the camera shows up on the screen and any operator ilumination just turns the screen into a mirror.
My hope is that they address these issues as soon as possible but I suspect that unless the mini fullfils my workflow better than the full fat version a refund will be on the cards.
Best
Jamie
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Ian Cresswell

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostMon Jun 29, 2015 10:22 pm

PaulDelVecchio wrote:I definitely understand your issues with the camera here. These features should be enabled but how come no research/testing was done before the shoot? With even just a few minutes with the camera, these issues would have become apparent right away. Was this a rental with no preproduction time?


Sure, in an ideal world you get a full prep day to sit down with a new camera and make sure everything is great. In reality, people often get called for shoots where they have the improvise and adapt to new cameras/accessories in real-time on set. It seems pretty reasonable to expect BASIC functionality to work, and to figure out a majority of basic functions using intuition.

No LUTs via SDI out? That's one that I agree you should know about the camera before hand. It's more specific, and not something every camera has. That's on the operator to know about and be familiar with before hand. The LCD sucks outside? Well, yeah honestly most LCD screens do. That should have been planned for accordingly and is not a big shocker. That huge LCD is meant for studio/indoor monitoring. There's no way it was ever supposed to be a great outdoors viewing screen. That's what an eyepiece/hood/loupe is for.

But some of the others are incredibly stupid oversights/bugs by BMD. No battery percentage remaining? No thumbnails? What a joke. Not sure how a camera is supposed to be taken seriously with those issues. A Canon t2i has those capabilities for goodness sake.
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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostMon Jun 29, 2015 11:05 pm

Ian, I disagree with your statement that in an ideal world, we'd have a day of prep. When shooting with a new camera, it's my belief that you should test everything you're going to use, run it through a quick workflow test, so you know what works, what doesn't, and how things work. If I didn't have time, I'd use another camera.

Granted, I don't know the full extent of Jamie's situation, but personally I could never get to set without at least having spent a few hours with a camera and run it through a workflow from start to finish.

It's besides the point though. Jamie, I hope you do enjoy the Ursa a bit more, especially if you plan on upgrading to the 4.6K because the footage out of these cameras is amazing. I'd suggest taking a few hours to see how things work (or don't work) and see if you can live with them or if you need another camera that suits you better. It's all about finding the best tool for how you work. I mean, I love Avid for narrative editing but most people think I'm crazy. It's just about finding what's important to you and seeing which tool best fits your needs.

If the Ursa is not that tool, I hope you do find one that fits your needs so you can do awesome work. I just wouldn't dismiss the Ursa so quickly. You get a lot of bang for your buck. To me, the picture quality far outweighs the small "gotchas."

Good luck and let us know what happens.
Paul Del Vecchio - Director/Producer
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Guy Fiorita

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostMon Jun 29, 2015 11:41 pm

Jamie,

Sorry to hear you had these troubles, I feel your pain. There are so many things that can go wrong on your shoot, the last thing you want to worry about is if your camera is actually recording. I'm curious about the pink noise and the situation that caused it. You're using a card that shouldn't have any issues at 1080. You mentioned the shots were on a crane - were you using a lanc controller to trigger record? Any other special circumstances during the shots in question?

I've had the Ursa since last september and I've only experienced a corrupt file once. An operator rolled at 150 fps for 15 min and went directly into playback. I'm curios if you/your operator may have gone into playback immediately after recording.
I had the corruption occur during an intense 15 day shoot for a Science Channel show where we used the Ursa constantly for high speed and beauty shots. Other than that one shot, which we were luckily able to pick up, the camera worked flawlessly.

I have the hoodman for using the lcd outside.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... _ursa.html

I'll echo Paul's comments on the plate.

Everything else I completely agree. I see LUT's and thumbnails as secondary (although I do appreciate that I can see on the 'media remaining' bar which chunk of media is playing back) BUT the battery indicator and timecode are things I would love to see fixed asap. I'm tired of audio guys looking at me like I have three heads when I say, 'yes it will take timecode but it has to be recording. No, no you can't actually see the timecode. Yes it does look like rec run but it is in fact free run.'
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Ian Cresswell

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostMon Jun 29, 2015 11:50 pm

PaulDelVecchio wrote:Ian, I disagree with your statement that in an ideal world, we'd have a day of prep. When shooting with a new camera, it's my belief that you should test everything you're going to use, run it through a quick workflow test, so you know what works, what doesn't, and how things work. If I didn't have time, I'd use another camera.


...Okay man. Good for you that you've always got the time to test out every camera before you use it. That's not true for tons of people. I know lots of people that are pro shooters even on decent budget shoots that don't know every in-and-out of the camera they're going to use. And honestly they shouldn't have to. They should be able to assume that if they can put it in the right basic mode (correct codec/resolution, correct framerate, correct white balance, correct color profile, aperture/shutter/iso values) that they can hit record and get reasonable results. Plenty of people I know, particularly older guys in the industry, don't have time or interest to read up on every last new camera body on the market. They get hired to operate the camera that has been rented. They read up on the basics, show up and expect it to function. The important part of camera operating is framing/composition/etc etc etc. The intricate details of why a BMD URSA has ridiculous bugs where it causes pink shots and card errors.... why should anyone have to "familiarize" themselves with that garbage and the associated workarounds? They shouldn't.

Do I familiarize myself with almost all aspects of a camera before I shoot? Sure. But that's because I'm a gearhead, and a young dude with plenty of time and interest in all the latest stuff. But I know plenty of people who don't want to have to fool with ALL the ins and outs. They expect if they put the camera in the right mode with the right exposure, they can shoot and get the footage they need. But honestly that's why most people I know don't use BMD cameras. Nobody can rely on them to work correctly without having somebody nearby who knows ALL the stupid quirks and bugs. They have a great image, but so so many design flaws. Almost nobody uses them here in Nashville except for ultra-low budget one-man-band narrative stuff.
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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jun 30, 2015 12:29 am

Ian Cresswell wrote:
PaulDelVecchio wrote:Ian, I disagree with your statement that in an ideal world, we'd have a day of prep. When shooting with a new camera, it's my belief that you should test everything you're going to use, run it through a quick workflow test, so you know what works, what doesn't, and how things work. If I didn't have time, I'd use another camera.


...Okay man. Good for you that you've always got the time to test out every camera before you use it. That's not true for tons of people. I know lots of people that are pro shooters even on decent budget shoots that don't know every in-and-out of the camera they're going to use. And honestly they shouldn't have to. They should be able to assume that if they can put it in the right basic mode (correct codec/resolution, correct framerate, correct white balance, correct color profile, aperture/shutter/iso values) that they can hit record and get reasonable results. Plenty of people I know, particularly older guys in the industry, don't have time or interest to read up on every last new camera body on the market. They get hired to operate the camera that has been rented. They read up on the basics, show up and expect it to function. The important part of camera operating is framing/composition/etc etc etc. The intricate details of why a BMD URSA has ridiculous bugs where it causes pink shots and card errors.... why should anyone have to "familiarize" themselves with that garbage and the associated workarounds? They shouldn't.

Do I familiarize myself with almost all aspects of a camera before I shoot? Sure. But that's because I'm a gearhead, and a young dude with plenty of time and interest in all the latest stuff. But I know plenty of people who don't want to have to fool with ALL the ins and outs. They expect if they put the camera in the right mode with the right exposure, they can shoot and get the footage they need. But honestly that's why most people I know don't use BMD cameras. Nobody can rely on them to work correctly without having somebody nearby who knows ALL the stupid quirks and bugs. They have a great image, but so so many design flaws. Almost nobody uses them here in Nashville except for ultra-low budget one-man-band narrative stuff.


To each his own.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jun 30, 2015 1:07 am

I took a new Hatchi camera (ENG type) on a news conference shoot, after only spending 15 min checking it out (I have been shooting ENG cameras for 20 years), camera seemed to check out, covered the news conference, got back to the studio, no audio. Luckily, the radio reporter recorded the conference, and we were able to sync the sound track in post.

Never again would I take out a new camera I have not used before without spending at least 1 or 2 days of using it to get to know the issues. Every camera has quirks and issues, period. You need to know what they are before a shoot. I spent six months working with my BM Pocket camera, before taking it out on a job, part of the time was waiting for firmware upgrades and large enough SD cards to cover the shots I was doing in Narrative type work. The other part was learning a new workflow with a much higher quality image the BM camera produced. The rest was me using a camera I was comfortable with and liked, my AF100, which I recorded Prores with to an with an Ext. recorder as a stepping stone to a better workflow.

The AF100 replaced my SD Sony and Canon ENG cameras, and was this a new experience, learning to work with zooms thT were Not Parfocal! Improved my shooting and went back to my still camera experience and started using Cine Primes, nice change from ENG Zooms, better image quality too. So the AF100 was my stepping stone to HD and a better workflow. I also used the AF100 with a Sony DVCam deck via the SDI out for some projects that were still being shot in SD for a local cable TV station, until I got a Hyperdeck to shoot directly to disk in ProRes. So the Panny made a good transition camera, until BM came out with its great offerings with improved image quality that rivals my earlier shooting in S16 film in my pre ENG camera days.

So yes, it is a learning curve and getting familiar with new technology as it comes out. It is perfect, not even -- but will it work, hell yes, you need to learn every new cameras quirks, and make it work for you.

You want a real workhorse, anybody want my 50-year old high speed 35mm film camera? It weighs in at around 25 to 35-lbs! In its day, it was a small "handheld" and quick to use "stick camera" for action shots!
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Steven Abrams

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jun 30, 2015 1:47 am

Jamie Hammond wrote:Firstly I have been a DP for nearly 10 years and have spent 25 years in the television and film industry.

Always a classic when someone starts a post this way. I've said this before, but I've never seen anyone who's really good and well respected EVER say anything like this. Their work and words speak to their experience.

Jamie Hammond wrote:2) The pull out screen is near useless in a daylight environment.

Show me an LCD screen on a camera that IS good outside. Even "hi bright" monitors are just okay and aren't cheap. What do you normally do when shooting outside? What monitor do you use? Surely using an EVF would make more sense? Was there ANY prep on this?

Jamie Hammond wrote:4). We could not get a LUT out of the Sdi’s, the agency were constantly asking why the image looked so poor.

1 min of research before the shoot to realize this and then use a LUT box or a monitor that supports LUTs, like so many others do. So simple.

Jamie Hammond wrote:My 6 year EX3 has thumbnails why not this camera?

If the EX3 is so great and does everything you need, why not use that camera?

Jamie Hammond wrote:I will be asking for a refund and taking my money to Sony again.....:(

Probably for the best. Uniformed users that refuse to do due diligence before a shoot don't help anybody, and I think plays a large part in the Sony legend of "video" looking footage.

Ian Cresswell wrote:Plenty of people I know, particularly older guys in the industry, don't have time or interest to read up on every last new camera body on the market.


Generally DP's who get away with that use AC's that DO have to keep up with every camera and the intricacies. Talk to any half decent AC and they will make damn sure they know what's up with a camera before a shoot.

Look at John Seale with the latest Mad Max film. His first time using a RAW digital cinema camera. What did he do? Relied on the AC's and DIT's to keep the cameras running and set up. That's how you get it done.

The people that generally fail at this stuff, are corporate shooters or documentary shooters who don't work with AC's but try use RAW cinema type cameras for their work. If a DP walked onto a set with a Red, Alexa, Sony F5/FS7/55/65/etc without EVER having used one before, and had no AC that was clued up on it, it would likely end up in tears in some way. Seen it before, many times. Those DP's generally don't understand RAW camera ISO's, such as in low light shooting it can be better to use LOWER ISO's that allocate more bits to the shadows, and high ISO's for bright high contrast scenes to allocate more bits in the highlights. They can get caught out by media/codec/formatting requirements and workflow. But they all say similar things. I have 20 years experience and have used a ton of cameras (but 9/10 times never a RAW digital cinema camera) so it's definitely the camera at fault, not me. :roll: :lol:

Go read the Red forums or Sony forums, and you'll see plenty of issues people are having with the FS7, or Red Dragon, or F55/65 or whatever.

With these types of cameras, you HAVE to do your research. Plain and simple.
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Ian Cresswell

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jun 30, 2015 3:21 am

Steven Abrams wrote:Look at John Seale with the latest Mad Max film. His first time using a RAW digital cinema camera. What did he do? Relied on the AC's and DIT's to keep the cameras running and set up. That's how you get it done.


So I should be impressed that on a movie with a 350 million dollar budget, the cinematographer did camera tests before hand and used ACs and DITs?

I'm talking about the everyday shooter. Not absurd hollywood budgets. Pretty sure there's a huge disconnect here on what people are talking about.
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Jamie Hammond

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jun 30, 2015 6:09 am

Hi,
Most of the responses on here are informed opinions, a couple are just downright rude by BM fanboys 'Steven Abrams'. I do not need to justify my capabilities but by starting with a statement that contextualises my post with background history was there to justify my experience and some of my learnings from the days shoot, not to be ridiculed....

I think the major issue that is being skirted over here is the corrupt footage, pink noise problem and the fact that BM are aware of the issue but have not warned owners. Why would you or I shoot with this camera knowing that there is potential that shot will not be on card? We have built our reputation on reliability and that is what we expect from our cameras.

Also yes, we did have a prep day. As the director of the shoot, not the DP I was present for the prep day. It is my camera, my lenses, grip and lighting equipment so I make every effort to understand every camera I shoot with even though 90% of the time I'm directing now. The AC was present for the test as well but our tests where aimed at the camera set-up, the lenses, the dynamic range, exposure and sharpness test, the basics that I would performed at Arri or Panavision when I was an AC years ago, not whether the bloody TC worked....

My review was there to highlight the main pink noise issue but also to point out that the very basics required by a real world camera which the URSA isn't. Granted every camera has teething problems, we had it with RED and with the F55 but the core basic functions were always there.

Yes, the screen was tested and we knew the reflective nature of the screen after testing but with a shoot the next day, bring in an EVF was not an option. Having shot steadicam for over ten years with ( quick Steve, another contextualised point to be made here) I used both green screen CRT and Ultrabrite colour LCD panel screens, I was more than able to frame outside in the hot North African sun without seeing the world go by. So once again this was another nail in the coffin but not the main point.

Once again, we knew about the LUT on sdi through the test but its still a valid point for a review.

EX3 statement, ridiculous quote again and finalising with uniformed due diligence, please, climb down from your high horse and learn to play with the adults nicely. Yes this is a forum for all, professionals and novices but general etiquette and decorum go along way.

The greater point in hand is that basic issues and functions are not available on a camera that is being sold as a professional industry piece of equipment. I can get great images out of a Sony A7s or a Canon 5D, it doesn't mean that I want to shoot commercials, docs or a feature with it.

When I pick up a camera I want to be able to frame, light and shoot, I don't want to be thinking about whether the footage is corrupt and if I do have a problem I want to know that the company I bought from have given me the support or awareness about the issues to I can prepare accordingly before hand.

BM users are running the gauntlet by using this camera as it is, I will not be using it again until the issue is addressed.

I welcome all feedback as long as its polite, please ;)

Kind regards

Jamie
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Steven Abrams

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jun 30, 2015 7:27 am

Ian Cresswell wrote:So I should be impressed that on a movie with a 350 million dollar budget, the cinematographer did camera tests before hand and used ACs and DITs?

No. It's example of how even a great cinematographer at the top levels with a ton of experience needs SOMEONE in the camera department to know and do prior prep with a unknown RAW digital cinema camera. But people with much smaller budgets think it doesn't apply to them for some reason. If someone doesn't have an AC/DIT to rely on, then it's up to THEM. There's no excuses. Do the work.

The disconnect you speak of is people thinking they can use these cameras like an EX3. You can't. Even at the top level they don't pull that off without doing testing and having people who know the cameras.

"Every day shooters" are exempt from doing the work that even top level DP's need to do? Nope. If anything, they at times should be putting in more work since they don't have the support or budget to help. Unless they're complacent and aren't looking to improve or step up. Which is fine, but no one wants to hear their excuses.
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Guy Fiorita

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jun 30, 2015 9:48 pm

Jamie -

I'm curios what the circumstances were when you experienced the corruption. I've experienced this before as I stated earlier in the thread and I'd like to avoid it if possible. I'm not crazy about the power cycle record test.

Were cards formatted in camera? ExFAT or HFS?

Did you check playback in camera? If you did check it in camera, was the screen completely pink immediately or did you get strange playback initially, pink pixels etc?

Had the DP checked playback in camera at any other time prior to the shots you lost?

How long were the takes?

You said 1080 prores 422 but what sensor frame rate? Were they high speed shots?

Window or full sensor?

You said you were on a crane, were you using a lanc controller for that shot?

Thanks!
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jun 30, 2015 11:05 pm

Jamie Hammond wrote:just downright rude by BM fanboys 'Steven Abrams'.

More classic opening posts from the playbook of forum trolling. If someone dare suggest that perhaps issues could have easily been avoided with some work on the user side, call them a fanboy! If someone suggest that similar problems exist with other products, call them a fanboy!

I guess that means I'm a Red/Arri/Sony fanboy too then huh? Since I lumped all the cameras together?

Solid diagnosis. Well done. It really helped strengthen your point and didn't detract from it at all.

Jamie Hammond wrote:starting with a statement that contextualises my post with background history was there to justify my experience

Otherwise known as "don't dare question me or allude that perhaps some of the blame is on me". Yes of course, now that you've explained your background it's definitely the camera, not you. Definitely. I mean you must be infallible with all that experience. John Seele with all his experience, talent, and skill had to rely on others but he must be a hack compared to you.

Jamie Hammond wrote:It is my camera

The plot thickens. Did you also purchase the camera the day before? No wait, let me guess - you've been far too busy to test and use your camera, right?

Buyers remorse anyone?

Jamie Hammond wrote:I was more than able to frame outside in the hot North African sun without seeing the world go by. So once again this was another nail in the coffin but not the main point.

I haven't shot in the African sun, but pretty close to it and the screen was still good enough to frame with. Agree to disagree.

Jamie Hammond wrote:Granted every camera has teething problems, we had it with RED and with the F55 but the core basic functions were always there.

Really? Red One = corrupted footage. Sony FS7 = corrupted footage. I could go on but hey, I'm an Arri/Blackmagic/Red/Sony fanboy so what's the point?

Jamie Hammond wrote:I welcome all feedback as long as its polite, please ;)

Sorry, you're on a forum where you don't get to control the conversation. A place where if someone says dumb things, they get called on it. I know it's tough to handle, but I'm sure if you're the adult you claim to be you can deal with it.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostWed Jul 01, 2015 12:12 am

Man, this thread is hostile. Sad.

I hope BM fixes the card corruption issues/pink images; that's a really bad issue. I hope they also implement the ability to do LUTs via SDI out. That would be nice :)
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostWed Jul 01, 2015 5:04 am

I haven't heard of this bug, but if it's a real and repeatable problem then it's a clanger and shouldn't happen.

It sounds like it actually happened to you only once though (for a given power cycle) so you lost 4 clips (which is unacceptable) and then once you power cycled it's never happened again ?

I agree that's it's the very worst when a camera says it's recording and show's it recording and then in fact is only recording un-usable footage. It should be at least self diagnosing.

I've had it happen to me more recently on a Sony F55 shooting RAW. We had a complex 4 min steadicam sequence and in the end we had to re-shoot the scene and bring cast back. The file was cactus. It was an insurance claim. No one from Panavision or Sony can tell me why it happened or if it would ever happen again.

I keep asking every few weeks (happened about 9 months ago) and still no one can tell me why. Sony don't even acknowledge that it happened.

Theories include overheating camera and momentary loss of connection between the RAW recorder. All are guesses really.

I've also "lost" footage using RED cameras as well, but at least they eventually offered (after I jumped up and down enough) to try to recover the files. And much to my amazement they did, although it took nearly 10 months before they got around to it. In the end it don't matter cause the show had gone to air already !

The point is, that no camera is immune for these kinds of problems. I can't believe this exact problem is a widespread, common and repeatable problem or we'd see a lot more discussion about it. But it's really really crappy that it is a problem. The intermittent ones are the worst.

I think the rest of your comments are mostly valid and all issues that have been discussed here before. I know for example that LUT's on output is something that URSA should be able to do (as it's very processor intensive and the camera was designed with this in mind) and already we see on the BM EVF that it has this basic function.

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostWed Jul 01, 2015 8:45 am

Hi,
Guy, the camera set-up was pretty straight forward shooting 25FPS, full sensor and the card was formatted HFS. The shots were relatively close to the end of the card but there was still plenty of space, each shot no more than 3 minutes in length. No lanc controller on the crane.
We had sporadically checked shots throughout the day but just for reference not for corruption. I have attached the pink corruption still which seems to have been noted elsewhere in the forum.

Steven Abrams, once again you completely miss the point. This has nothing to do with prep, the points laid out were a fair evaluation of a first shoot with the URSA and the basic functions that a missing or at fault with a camera that is being sold as feature/commercial ready. Most importantly as the title implies, this is a warning to other users about the pink noise fault, not to be warned the sun might be too bright or you can't set timecode. All those massively valid points were backing to the major fault in hand, one of which you seem to skim over in your attempt to ridicule and poison the forum.

Once again you prove how limited your real world experience is with not only camera/filming situations but also with human beings. Your inability to conduct yourself in a professional manor and construct a sentence that doesn't pull apart or point blame other people adds nothing to the argument and just cements the fact that you know very little about what real professionals expect from suppliers/manufacturers when it comes to equipment. Quoting from this months American Cinematographer about what so and so did with his twenty man camera department brings nothing to the table when the low price point of this camera was to draw in the prosumer market and compete with Sony FS7 or the F5, where docs, small commercials and corporates are likely to use this camera. The basics still need to be there.....

Yes, we have problems with other cameras, but the point being that BM know about this issue and have let buyers run the gauntlet on expensive shoots. This is not good enough.

As a first poster to this forum I can now see why myself and other professionals keep to locked forums, where at least there is a little bit of respect and common decency, which is a shame as there is a wealth of knowledge to be garnered for both amateurs and professionals alike. The small minded, keyboard warriors seem to spoil it for everyone.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostWed Jul 01, 2015 1:39 pm

^Well put sir.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostWed Jul 01, 2015 2:10 pm

This does seem like more of an argument about best practice for risk limitation vs attributing blame - In reality - you cannot rely on anything 100% so for situations where it would be costly to have some kind of equipment failure or have something you expect to behave a certain way not perform as such - test as much as possible before hand. I generally won't use a camera on anything serious for at least a few weeks after solid testing.

Now - also in reality - there is not always time for this, and when a fault is intermittent - testing before hand won't always highlight any issues. Since there is no amount of testing which can eliminate all risk then its not really fair to attribute blame to the operator for something not working correctly.

As for features/performances not being good enough for a situation (screen too dark, no LUT on output etc) - this really IS something you can discover before hand - either by researching online, asking a dealer or a quick check on the camera itself. Either way - I don't think the OP was really doing anything other than describing what he thought could be improved on the camera - which is hardly a crime!

As the OP pointed out - the corruption issue is the most serious thing here. Have you double checked your card reader? sometimes these things can happen during the transfer process. I hope it is something as simple as this.

My biggest gripe with anyone on the forum is when they complain for the sake of venting - its not helpful or useful to anyone and kinda selfish. But people who describe a problem in the hope of finding a solution is why this place exists. Part of the diagnosis process is to always first explore the possibility of operator error, then peripheral faults and then finally camera faults. This is generally why I think people get upset with me anyway - because they feel as though I instantly conclude the operator is at fault - but it is just a method of eliminating the easiest thing first.

So with this in mind - could you perhaps show an example of the corruption, describe what cards you used, what reader etc. ?

It doesn't really matter who or what was at fault - just as long as it can be remedied to prevent it happening again or to other people.

Also - its better to give people the benefit of the doubt on things like describing their years of experience - assume they are doing so to clarify the level at which you can direct questions at them - rather than them trying to demonstrate how they are better than you are. Sometimes a user will post a question and the responses go right over their heads - this is not helpful - so it does help the discussion to establish the experience or skill level at the start.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostWed Jul 01, 2015 3:17 pm

Hi,
As Ive mentioned in previous posts, this is not a case of this doesnt work that doesnt work, it is a case of BM knowing there is a problem and not informing its customers. We shot numerous camera tests, previewed the footage both out of the camera and on Mac book pro and Imac, the last issue we expected was corrupt footage as none was found over the test day. No amount of testing will remedy the issues mentioned, all they do is highlight the issues so there are no suprises on the day. No surprises were had on the day as we knew about the problems bar the corrupt footage which was the main point of this thread.
The other issues still make the camera a difficult choice if choice was on offer. I stand by my original evaluation of the camera, it has too many disadvantages over its competition at this stage, but now I wait to hear back from BM over a resolution.
Best
Jamie

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostWed Jul 01, 2015 4:17 pm

Jamie, I believe all your points are valid. On a side note, I also have been waiting real time code since the original BMCC...
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostThu Jul 02, 2015 12:21 am

Jamie Hammond wrote:Steven Abrams, once again you completely miss the point.

Nope.

Jamie Hammond wrote:This has nothing to do with prep

Apart from the Pink footage, it's 100% prep. Although the Pink footage has been mentioned on here before too so even that with some research/prep you would have been aware of.

From what you've told us, you went out and purchased and camera without doing any research on the camera or reading these forums or others dedicated to the BMD cameras.

Then used it on a shoot.

That's just crazy in this day and age with digital cameras. You can't do that with a Red/Sony/whatever and not get bitten. Seen it too many times. They're all as bad as each other in that regard.

Jamie Hammond wrote:the points laid out were a fair evaluation of a first shoot with the URSA and the basic functions that a missing or at fault with a camera

Sure, except they've all been beaten to death several months ago. Something you would have known if you had put in just the tiniest bit of effort.

You came in screaming (a thread title in ALL CAPS) and listing things on the camera you're unhappy with as if they were news to anyone here. But Blackmagic and most people here already know about all it of and it was discussed to exhaustion a long time ago. Mentioning all those things again achieves nothing but to annoy to people that you haven't read existing threads. Again, Blackmagic knows all this stuff and likely already have plans in place and it's very likely some of it will be addressed in the next URSA update (the URSA updates have been great so far, but I guess you wouldn't know that). Your post won't change that.

Not only did you not read existing threads, but you started a new one. If your OP was just about the Pink noise, fine. I probably wouldn't have even responded. It's been mentioned but it seems fairly recent and not very widespread at this point.

And speaking of "basic functions" like a LUT coming from camera (it's not a basic function but anyway), go use an FS7 in slow motion and tell me how that LUT looks on the monitor output. Oh. Whooops. Doesn't work anymore.

Jamie Hammond wrote:one of which you seem to skim over in your attempt to ridicule and poison the forum.

No. I skimmed over it because I didn't take much issue with it. Except that you seem to think this kind of thing is unique to Blackmagic. It's not. I already said I've had corrupt footage with an FS7/Red/etc. Don't get me wrong, that kind of thing sucks and is not acceptable. But like I said, it's not unique to Blackmagic (unfortunately) as you make it out to be.

Bringing up complaints from several months ago adds noise to a forum. I take issue with that because you've been too lazy to do your research on a product prior to purchase, and again too lazy to get the history of this forum before posting.

Jamie Hammond wrote:Once again you prove how limited your real world experience is with not only camera/filming situations but also with human beings. Your inability to conduct yourself in a professional manor and construct a sentence that doesn't pull apart or point blame other people adds nothing to the argument and just cements the fact that you know very little about what real professionals expect from suppliers/manufacturers when it comes to equipment.

You nailed it. I'm gonna go reevaluate everything now.

Jamie Hammond wrote:As a first poster to this forum I can now see why myself and other professionals keep to locked forums, where at least there is a little bit of respect and common decency

Respect is earned. When you enter beating your chest talking of your experience, but then compare an on camera LCD monitor to an external monitor specifically designed for steadicam use, or compare functions of a digital cinema RAW camera to an EX3 (your comparison, not mine), and ultimately show disrespect for the users of this forum by not following forum etiquette and reading/searching before posting, you won't get any from me. But good job trying to infer yourself as belonging to a private group of professionals. You've convinced me.

Jamie Hammond wrote:The small minded, keyboard warriors seem to spoil it for everyone.

You sure do.
Last edited by Steven Abrams on Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostThu Jul 02, 2015 12:35 am

Tom wrote:it does help the discussion to establish the experience or skill level at the start.

I disagree, I've never seen you or John or anyone that people generally respect like David Mullen, Roger Deakins, etc, EVER mention how many years they've been doing something.

The reason being is that years of experience does NOT equal skill level or talent. I know plenty of people 20+ years in who don't hold a candle to others with 5 years or less experience. It's just not useful.

It's easily inferred by what the poster says and how they say it, and a far better measure.

30+ years of experience in one thing, doesn't necessarily translate to another. Which was my point of John Seale. He openly admitted he had no clue about digital cameras. I 100% respect that admission because it shows humility and an understanding about what skills he doesn't have and what he doesn't know. Saying that invites help from others.

It's clear that in this thread the statement of years of experience was used to qualify that they DO know what they're doing, and that their feedback should be taken onboard more seriously. Yet what was further said by them was at odds with that. So instead I believe what's said should be taken on it's own merit.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostThu Jul 02, 2015 4:25 am

Okay fight fans, it's gone 12 rounds and it's a split decision. Time to let this one go. Both sides had effective jabs but no knockout. Looking forward to a rematch. I'm thinking both fighters have more respect for each other after this match is over than they did in the beginning. Points have been made and we've all learned it's a bloody sport we love! Thanks, guys.


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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostThu Jul 02, 2015 8:08 am

I think I will gracefully remove myself from the sandpit from this point on. The idea (in bold caps as the title suggests) was to highlight a pretty massive flaw in this camera and BM knowing, but not informing their customers of it and how to avoid it, Steven seems to accept this as part of the cameras charm that has never happened to him so its not a problem. Unfortunately, the shows I work on frown heavily on screw ups and as I working director and DP I value my clients and the work I produce. If you had read the argument you would have seen that myself an the AC ran the same tests we did on the RED one, F5, Varicam, 750, D21, Phantom etc... The same tests we have performed for twenty years, but that doesn't mean anything! The other points of conjecture just added to the argument that this camera is not real world ready. Never have I picked up a camera without going through its paces, but when the very basics on offer to a 20 year old camera are not available to 2015 camera it is glaringly obvious these need to be pointed out.
Maybe some of these points have been mentioned previously in posts but the reason for the post (once again in bold caps )was that this issue needs to be a sticky, and if one person can save themselves the hassle, stress and financial implications by going about the workaround and knowing about the issue then the thread was worthy.
Unfortunately, Steven has diluted the thread completely so, I wish all that do read the thread, good luck with the BM adventure, Im sure it will get there eventually.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostThu Jul 02, 2015 4:04 pm

rick.lang wrote:... I'm thinking both fighters have more respect for each other after this match is over than they did in the beginning...


I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that. I was wrong to think that... Repeat ad nauseum.


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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostThu Jul 02, 2015 7:04 pm

Rick, what's your take on this? Not the fighters, the camera? Since you had been following the BM cameras meticulously?

After my experience with BMPC4K, I have refrained myself from booking an URSA mini and will be following the forum, till I come to a conclusion about buying. While I love the BMPC4K image, the camera is actually complete after so many months. I should have waited all these months and bought the camera after it stabilised (at a lesser price point also) instead of buying it at the very beginning and stacking it up in my cabinet.

So, this time I'd be patient and waiting and watching. You can call this my "research part" as one fighter mentioned.
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BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostFri Jul 03, 2015 9:20 pm

Subrata, I know Jamie had a valid concern about the pink video, and it's important to report your findings from a shoot. No one wants that to happen on any shoot. It is very rare and good to contact BMD with as many details related to the shoot as possible to see if one or two factors seem empirically to be the cause of the corruption. That's the benefit of having a user forum like this so that we are all aware and may take some precautions to avoid being bit by that snake ourselves. For me, besides using certified media, formatting in camera, I think it's important to take a moment between recording and playback or even changing menu options. These electronics are amazingly fast but I still think a few seconds of the operator doing nothing will allow the camera and the media internal data manager to tidy up whatever it wants to do. Hope that keeps me safe, but I'm not thinking any precaution is guaranteed you'll never have a problem. If you are shooting something with multiple takes, as opposed to events, then take time to review before doing a new setup. Given there are no guarantees, I don't think the extremely rare chance of getting pink images would stop me from buying the URSA/Mini 4.6K.

The other points Jamie made can be accommodated in one way or another and wouldn't deter me at all. I plan on using the Blackmagic Viewfinder when shooting in bright daylight. And so on. Some of the points may well be addressed in future firmware releases. We know these cameras come from a young company in terms of the experience making cameras. So caution is meritorious to a point; there is a time when waiting for a mature product may be appropriate, but I think the URSA Mini will demonstrate that maturity this year. Even a mature camera may see improvements in the future. The URSA is like buying an insurance policy that the camera may be future proof longer than most cameras but the URSA Mini is not so safe. If you know basically what you need and where you see yourself for the next several years, and if the URSA/Mini satisfies that requirement this year for you, I think it will prove to be a terrific camera over five years. If you need mobility, the Mini is great. But a younger, stronger, person may be fine moving about with the URSA and the BM Viewfinder on a shoulder mount.

I can see where the BMPC4K has a lot of appeal now that that camera has reached maturity (by maturity I don't mean end-of-life). But shooting with the new and larger 4.6K sensor, with global shutter for most work using at least 13 stops of dynamic range and rolling shutter for HFR (defined as more than 30 fps on the Mini and more than 60 fps on the URSA) with 15 stops of dynamic range, with an ISO 800 native speed and improved lowlight, and (fingers crossed) no hidden gotchas, then these two cameras are going to be very appealing for most people that want to have the option to be able to deliver beautiful 4K, UHD, 2K, HD, and 2x anamorphic (or cropped if you prefer) CinemaScope images efficiently. How can you resist!?

I'm still waiting to get a sense of whether I should go with the practical approach of using Rokinon Ciné DS manual primes on the Mini 4.6K with the EF mount or to Hell with compromises and go with the superior but less practical PL mount. The EF option gives me a range of fairly inexpensive and reasonably useful focal lengths up to 135mm but I'm still waiting to hear from Korea on the 16mm image circle. And I'm concerned the 24mm just isn't a good lens compared to the 16mm and the others. The PL mount gives me very very few affordable new lens choices, at this point both from SLR Magic, a 50mm APO Cine (that may be close to Zeiss Otus 55mm still for a fraction of the cost) and the 70mm true 2x anamorphic lens. Those two likely aren't enough and now waiting for SLR Magic to provide more of a roadmap at Photokina this September. So I wait but only because of that mount selection issue I have. If I knew the mount I want, I'd preorder. I know what the Rokinon lenses will do, lots of footage out there. Those new SLR Magic lenses for Vistavision are the big unknown. Some 50mm APO images, nothing for their 70mm 2x anamorphic lens. What do you think, Subrata?


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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSat Jul 04, 2015 3:21 am

Note to self. When someone experiences an issue with a camera that they've purchased, it's their fault for not testing the camera, not the camera manufacturer's fault for issues that seem to plague multiple cameras. Got it. Wisdom.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSat Jul 04, 2015 4:32 am

Rick,
You are absolutely right. The choice of the mount is also one of the main reasons that's holding me back from URSA Mini 4.6 K at this point. Sadly, BM doesn't offer interchangeable mounts as RED and Alexa do.

I own a full set of Samyang (Rokinon in your country), excepting the 50 mm, which is a Zeiss ZE. My experience is, the lenses are good. The 24 mm is a problem at full open (T1.5), but produces very good results from 4.0 onwards.

I would have loved to have a full Zeiss (Distagon/Planar) collection but I don't like the electronic iris. I have problems with ZFs too, because all my life I had been focusing the 'right' way. I don't understand why Zeiss doesn't make Canon lenses with manual apertures. That would have solved all my problems and I would have nicely settled with EF mount with Zeiss primes (with or without mod), a Canon 70-200 and a Tokina 11-16. Maybe a Tokina/Canon 100 macro also, for those odd needs.

Coming to PL mount, the alternatives are limited. The UltraPrimes are beyond my means. That leaves me to Zeiss CP2 with PL mount option. But the CP2 lenses are too huge and quite not acceptable for handheld shots. Another option could be the GLOptics mod lenses, where they have a full set of Zeiss prime lenses on offer for $12000. This is as costly as CP2 lenses, but do not have the bulk. I have to add to them a Canon 70-200 PL mount mod lens and a Tokina 11-16 PL mount original/mod lens also. Then a 100 mm Macro with PL mod. This is roughly $25,000.

So, it's not at all an easy option. I'm thinking...
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSat Jul 04, 2015 2:47 pm

Subrata Senn wrote:... Sadly, BM doesn't offer interchangeable mounts as RED and Alexa do. ...


Doesn't RED charge about $2,000 for their interchangeable lens mount -- just for the mount?

The URSA Mini starts at $2,995 ... for the entire camera.

You're asking for a different, more expensive camera, not an URSA Mini.

I hope the URSA Mini continues to be offered exactly as it is.

A Blackmagic cam with an IM would be an additional model, probably at a higher price. That's OK, too.

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSat Jul 04, 2015 3:41 pm

Subrata, for those on a limited budget, trying to buy new PL lenses is quite a challenge. I agree that the smaller size lenses would likely be easier to manage handheld (shoulder mount or monopod). Maybe in the future Veydra will be inspired to help fill in the void for smaller and lighter Super 35 quality manual primes. So far only SLR Magic looks to be a champion and they're going for 135 film VistaVision coverage. So that can't be too small or light given the laws of physics and the need for sturdiness and precision for PL glass.

Peter is probably right, although it's possible, it's unlikely BMD will offer both interchangeable mounts (or a proprietary mount) and upgradable turrets for URSA. I know some people interested in the URSA Mini would just buy two cameras, one EF and one PL.

I've seen the Samyang/Rokinon 24mm on the Digital Picture website and understand the lens will be fine outdoors at T4/T5.6, but it has accurately been described as muddy below T2.8 and that's a concern indoors until I can budget for Dedolights. Rokinon is the sensible path in today's market when trying to assemble a set of lenses under $10,000. But the siren call of PL will always be there whispering sweetly in your ear, "Come to me." I've seen lots and lots of great video that didn't use PL glass so I know it's only one more tool. Story comes first and when the story is working, no one is judging your lenses. So it's hard to explain to myself why PL seems the better choice except it's there and it is attainable. I'm not dreaming about a $100,000 car.


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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSat Jul 04, 2015 5:59 pm

rick.lang wrote:Subrata, for those on a limited budget, trying to buy new PL lenses is quite a challenge. I agree that the smaller size lenses would likely be easier to manage handheld (shoulder mount or monopod). Maybe in the future Veydra will be inspired to help fill in the void for smaller and lighter Super 35 quality manual primes. So far only SLR Magic looks to be a champion and they're going for 135 film VistaVision coverage. So that can't be too small or light given the laws of physics and the need for sturdiness and precision for PL glass.

Peter is probably right, although it's possible, it's unlikely BMD will offer both interchangeable mounts (or a proprietary mount) and upgradable turrets for URSA. I know some people interested in the URSA Mini would just buy two cameras, one EF and one PL.

I've seen the Samyang/Rokinon 24mm on the Digital Picture website and understand the lens will be fine outdoors at T4/T5.6, but it has accurately been described as muddy below T2.8 and that's a concern indoors until I can budget for Dedolights. Rokinon is the sensible path in today's market when trying to assemble a set of lenses under $10,000. But the siren call of PL will always be there whispering sweetly in your ear, "Come to me." I've seen lots and lots of great video that didn't use PL glass so I know it's only one more tool. Story comes first and when the story is working, no one is judging your lenses. So it's hard to explain to myself why PL seems the better choice except it's there and it is attainable. I'm not dreaming about a $100,000 car.


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I wouldn't worry too much about the Rokinons. The 24 seems to be the worst offender. I wouldn't worry about shooting at f2. You get pretty good results and at f2.8 and larger, you get great results. If you're worried about f2.8 not being shallow, enough, you should be fine on a super35 sensor. On the BMCC, to me, it's a different story, but on the Ursa mini, it'll be fine. That's my opinion, anyway. The focus rings do have a little bit of play, so that's something to look out for, as well as soft/smeary contrast below f2. If those don't bother you, then the Rokinons are a good choice.

Also, why not look into Zeiss ZE or ZF lenses?
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rick.lang

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSat Jul 04, 2015 10:46 pm

PaulDelVecchio wrote:I wouldn't worry too much about the Rokinons... The focus rings do have a little bit of play, so that's something to look out for, as well as soft/smeary contrast below f2. If those don't bother you, then the Rokinons are a good choice...


I agree with you that the Rokinon 24mm is a poor performer wide open. It improves with each stop from T2 through T4. At T4 it's a very good match for the 35mm at T2. So perhaps I'll use the 35mm indoors wide open or at T2 and use the 24mm outdoors at T2.8 or T4 for best results.

The Digital Picture site doesn't have results for the Samyang/Rokinon 16mm but I believe that lens will be useful at T2.1 indoors. Do you agree, Paul?


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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSun Jul 05, 2015 10:48 am

Subrata Senn wrote: Sadly, BM doesn't offer interchangeable mounts as RED and Alexa do.


Maybe go and COST those mounts you refer to.

It's very very expensive to do PRECISION items like lens mounts, let alone the extra degree of difficulty to make things user changeable in the field,

Having the depth be out by the thickness of a sheet of aluminium foil is enough to mean a lens won't hit infinity.

A bit of dirt, or not doing up the screws of the mount evenly would be enough for it to be out or even off on one side of the mount.

That kind of precision is hard to do WELL so that it's repeatable and able to be done by a user in the field without specialised tools and gauges.

It could be done cheaply. Yeah. but it won't be good. And just imagine the howls of dissent here if that happened.

So the question really is....how much EXTRA would you be prepared to pay for an interchangeable mount ?

Because the mount ALONE on any of the cameras you've mentioned is a four figure sum.

JB

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Look at BM's current price. The EF mount is not user shimable. The PL mount IS user shimable. It costs $500 more for a PL mount even though it's not even got the electronics and power contacts of the EF lens to worry about.
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Subrata Senn

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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSun Jul 05, 2015 5:52 pm

John Brawley wrote:Maybe go and COST those mounts you refer to.

It's very very expensive to do PRECISION items like lens mounts, let alone the extra degree of difficulty to make things user changeable in the field,

Having the depth be out by the thickness of a sheet of aluminium foil is enough to mean a lens won't hit infinity.

A bit of dirt, or not doing up the screws of the mount evenly would be enough for it to be out or even off on one side of the mount.

That kind of precision is hard to do WELL so that it's repeatable and able to be done by a user in the field without specialised tools and gauges.


JB

EDIT

Look at BM's current price. The EF mount is not user shimable. The PL mount IS user shimable. It costs $500 more for a PL mount even though it's not even got the electronics and power contacts of the EF lens to worry about.


John, we had been doing this mount change often during a shoot with RED cameras.

True, interchangeable mounts cost in four figures. So does the BM EVF, which ideally will be needed by URSA mini. And each lens might also cost in four figures.

My point was, had the camera been made with interchangeable mounts, interested people who CAN handle the cameras with precision could have saved some amount of money. Others could have stuck to their preferred mounts or bought two camera bodies with different mounts.

In any case, we had exchanged our points of view in another thread on this. :D
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSun Jul 05, 2015 9:19 pm

Subrata Senn wrote:
John, we had been doing this mount change often during a shoot with RED cameras.



Which has an adjustable backfocus so that you can "dial out" the mis-tolerance of the mount changeover by adjusting the flange depth by moving the sensor itself....

A great solution, but again, another expensive add on cost on TOP of having the precision of interchangeable mounts.

You still haven't said how much extra you would be prepared to pay.

If it made the camera cost $2000 more (Plus adaptor costs on top) would you be happy with that ?

If enough people said they would pay that kind of extra cost then they would probably look at doing an interchangeable mount version....

JB
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostSun Jul 05, 2015 9:22 pm

rick.lang wrote:
The Digital Picture site doesn't have results for the Samyang/Rokinon 16mm but I believe that lens will be useful at T2.1 indoors. Do you agree, Paul?


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I've never used the 16mm. Not sure how that one performs. Below 24mm I usually use zooms.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostMon Jul 06, 2015 1:52 am

EDIT* Moved my comments to another thread to stay on topic

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36982
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BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostMon Jul 06, 2015 8:20 pm

PaulDelVecchio wrote:
rick.lang wrote:
The Digital Picture site doesn't have results for the Samyang/Rokinon 16mm but I believe that lens will be useful at T2.1 indoors. Do you agree, Paul?


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I've never used the 16mm. Not sure how that one performs. Below 24mm I usually use zooms.


Just wanted to update everyone on my recent exchange with Rokinon USA regarding the image circle of the 16mm T2. I finally received the news from the Samyang lens factory in South Korea. The answer is that the image circle for the Rokinon/Samyang 16mm Ciné T2.2 APS-C lens is... (drum roll please)... 30mm. Looks like good news since the diagonal on the new 4.6K is 29.08mm. No idea what the corners will look like until it's verified on the URSA/Mini, but it just may work on a true Super 35 3-perf sensor! I did ask them for the "useful" image circle so hoping the corners will be tolerable.

Rokinon also advised that the Rokinon 10mm T3.1 Ciné DS for APS-C cameras has an image circle of 28.37mm, so that won't work with the 4.6K sensor in open gate (for raw or ProRes that uses the full sensor area).
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jul 07, 2015 1:43 am

Wow, this thread went all over the place. Might be in the running for most off topic in multiple directions. Amazing.

Anyways for what it's worth I've never had corrupt files or pink footage with the URSA.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jul 07, 2015 1:56 am

VicHarris wrote:Wow, this thread went all over the place. Might be in the running for most off topic in multiple directions. Amazing.


Like the tides, "thread drift" is influenced by the moon's gravitational forces...
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostTue Jul 07, 2015 4:46 am

Steve Holmlund wrote:
VicHarris wrote:Wow, this thread went all over the place. Might be in the running for most off topic in multiple directions. Amazing.


Like the tides, "thread drift" is influenced by the moon's gravitational forces...


And by the "moon" you mean the black sun phenomenon? lol



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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostWed Jul 08, 2015 9:20 am

Trying to keep the thread on track, here is a link to the corrupt footage encountered on the shoot:


and here is a link to the fix I made to both baseplates to enable them to snap onto the BM Ursa.



(excuse dodgy v/o and camerwork :shock: )
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostThu Jul 09, 2015 2:40 pm

Hi Jamie -

That is exactly the same pink corruption I had. I will say in the 10 months I've had the camera of the hundreds (at least) of hours shot, only one clip exhibit this behavior and the camera was pushed to the extreme when it happened. It's unfortunate that it happened to you under seemingly normal circumstances on your first shoot. However, the VCT-U14 plate shouldn't require modification to work on the URSA. I've never seen another post where someone had this issue. I would definitely contact your dealer or BM support.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostThu Jul 09, 2015 3:57 pm

Jamie Hammond wrote:Trying to keep the thread on track, here is a link to the corrupt footage encountered on the shoot:


and here is a link to the fix I made to both baseplates to enable them to snap onto the BM Ursa.



(excuse dodgy v/o and camerwork :shock: )


If you're looking straight down at the top of the VCT plate, is the screw that's at the front of the VCT plate loose at all? Mine was and the Ursa wouldn't lock onto the plate. I tightened it and it was fine. It locks every time now.

Funny thing is that when it was loose, my Tilta shoulder mount would lock onto it but the Ursa wouldn't. Again, now that I tightened it, the Ursa locks onto it just fine every time.
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostFri Jul 10, 2015 3:53 pm

Hi,
The screw at the front was fine, as you can see in the video it seems like the shoe at the back of the Ursa is too thick for my VCT14, hence I've had to raise the spring loaded location pin to accommodate. Now If this was just my VCT14 I would have thought it was just that, but the fact that a colleagues VCT14 did exactly the same thing is a bit bizarre. The Ursa went back to BM but no problem was found which was even more bizarre?
Unfortunately the pink corruption on the first shoot will now be sat in the subconscious for some time now. Instead of thinking about the shot Ill be thinking more about if its on the card? I think concert shoots or any shoots of any real length such as interviews will now be out of the question.

Kind regards

Jamie
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Re: BIG URSA PROBLEMS: PINK NOISE ETC....

PostFri Jul 10, 2015 8:45 pm

Jamie Hammond wrote:Instead of thinking about the shot Ill be thinking more about if its on the card? I think concert shoots or any shoots of any real length such as interviews will now be out of the question.

Why? I know it's annoying and you shouldn't have to do it, but you can just do as support advise and record for 1 sec when turning on the camera and immediately check the clip. If it's good, you're okay until next power cycle without concern. At least there's SOMETHING you can do to ensure it won't happen on critical footage, which is better than I have had it on some other cameras. And it really only adds 2-3 secs when turning on the camera - considering the camera turns on much quicker than Red/Arri/Sony cinema cameras it takes no longer than even just turning those cameras on. Again, not ideal but it's not helpless either.
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