Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

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BjornFrins

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Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Apr 15, 2016 8:59 pm

Hi there,

I just recived my BM Ursa Mini 4.6k. And when i film at ISO1600 i get very ugly vertical lines.
Like there is a transparant overlay with vertical lines in the footage.

Specialy in the grey area's or darker areas. I tried to let the senser warm up a bit. It's been on for over 2 hours now and the problem is still there.
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JasonWarriner

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Apr 15, 2016 9:25 pm

post some images!
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Apr 15, 2016 9:31 pm

Yes, it will be great to see a DNG or something.
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Jimmy Kets

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSat Apr 16, 2016 8:35 am

Unfortunately I've got the same issue with my Ursa mini 4.6K, even at ISO800... Totally unacceptable. I hope they come with a solution quick.
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Alessandro Caporale

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSat Apr 16, 2016 10:25 pm

I have those also at 800 ISO, expecially visible on brown/dark red areas.

This snap is at 1600 ISO / 360° / f6.3 , unfocused to see better the fpn (as vertical lines)
-the big black line is part of my roof-
Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-04-04_2232_C0024_000000_1.jpg
Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-04-04_2232_C0024_000000_1.jpg (127.93 KiB) Viewed 7739 times


and here a section of it boosted in clarity/details to see more the FPN
Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-04-04_2232_C0024_000000_2.jpg
Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-04-04_2232_C0024_000000_2.jpg (559.69 KiB) Viewed 7734 times
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John Greene

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSat Apr 16, 2016 11:36 pm

i"m sure that's FPN
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Mikey Pounds

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Apr 17, 2016 2:24 am

I just got mine as well and yes, FPN at 800 and 1600 very bad. Looking to see if it's a bad sensor with BM and hopefully getting it replaced. Shouldn't be that bad. Sucks to see that out of the box. I let it warm up and shot for two hours, power cycling it several times and it never went away.
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Anatoly Mashanov

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Apr 17, 2016 2:42 am

I see the same lines on my BMPCC when I film at night. Unfortunately it's normal. Use a "Dark Frame" in your image processor to remove most of it and don't push your camera to extremes.
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Morten Carlsen

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Apr 17, 2016 10:30 am

Hi -

how much light did you have in your room ?

f6.3 inside a dark room is going to produce more noise than image on any camera when boosted.

The BM Cameras have FPN (all cams do) at least if the have a sensor ;-) Some have incam. reduction of that others in post. 'Simple' technique involving mapping sensor and subtracting result from image. What I am seeing from your images is something that would deem quite normal.

While UM46 is MUCH better in Lowlight than the 4K Prod. Camera - those cameras NEED light and LOTs of it.
They are not Canon/Nikon DSLRs which are lowlight kings. I personally find lots of those DSLRs to deliver better signal to noise ratios but also the images are "weird" looking in low light.

I prefer a camera like the UM48 which does as little to the image as possible and thus makes it predictable.

Whether low-light king or not... Lighting a scene for a low-light-dog is ALWAYS going to beat the result of NOT lighting a scene for low-light-king ;-)

PS - even in full daylight and indoor... Using f6.3 would always scream extra light if you want to get a stellar result....
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Alessandro Caporale

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Apr 17, 2016 10:38 am

Morten Carlsen wrote:Hi -

how much light did you have in your room ?

f6.3 inside a dark room is going to produce more noise than image on any camera when boosted.

The BM Cameras have FPN (all cams do) at least if the have a sensor ;-) Some have incam. reduction of that others in post. 'Simple' technique involving mapping sensor and subtracting result from image. What I am seeing from your images is something that would deem quite normal.

While UM46 is MUCH better in Lowlight than the 4K Prod. Camera - those cameras NEED light and LOTs of it.
They are not Canon/Nikon DSLRs which are lowlight kings. I personally find lots of those DSLRs to deliver better signal to noise ratios but also the images are "weird" looking in low light.

I prefer a camera like the UM48 which does as little to the image as possible and thus makes it predictable.

Whether low-light king or not... Lighting a scene for a low-light-dog is ALWAYS going to beat the result of NOT lighting a scene for low-light-king ;-)

PS - even in full daylight and indoor... Using f6.3 would always scream extra light if you want to get a stellar result....


Sorry, maybe I got misunderstood. I was not blaming about it. I'm used to light a scene properly :)
I was just answering to the OP that was seeing vertical lines on dark areas when at 1600ISO.

Noise like this is the last problem I would speak about UM46
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Morten Carlsen

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Apr 17, 2016 10:53 am

Alessandro Caporale wrote:
Sorry, maybe I got misunderstood. I was not blaming about it. I'm used to light a scene properly :)
I was just answering to the OP that was seeing vertical lines on dark areas when at 1600ISO.

Noise like this is the last problem I would speak about UM46



Alessandro - I am sorry too ;-)

I did not realize that you were not the Original Poster ;-)

So - OP - my post was directed at you not Alessandro ;-)
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Adam Langdon

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Apr 24, 2016 2:35 pm

i'm now noticing the blue vertical lines in my UM46. :x

in a dimly-lit room i can can them clear as day in the Display. when i boost the exposure they go away, but what if i'm filming a scene where i need background that's suppose to be underexposed?

(i'm using 800 ISO)

EDIT.....

well, now i'm wondering if it's the actual display on the camera? i took some DNGs into resolve and grabbed some jpeg stills...
1. 'proper' exposure
2. where i saw the vertical blue lines in-camera
3. aperture @22
Image
Image
Image

This is without any NR after the default of 10 in Resolve.
Perhaps this is the downscaling technique in-camera?
i'm trying to provide a link to share the DNGs via dropbox....
Ursa Mini Pro - Vintage Russian Glass - Nikon Manual Lenses - 1/4 Black Pro Mist
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James_Westlake

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Apr 24, 2016 5:01 pm

I've been testing the camera on a trip to Paris and in admittedly dark but not underexposed streetlight tests in the city centre I saw it badly in the sky, at 800 and 1600 ISO. This was shooting f1.4, 180 degree shutter 25fps 1600iso, so that's a nice exposure to be for a night scene in my opinion, I'd have been happy shooting darker if anything. And as I said, pushing it back down to the native 800ISO it was still very noticeable. But I have no computer to check DNGs yet, I'm hoping it is some scaling issue like what's been mentioned. I'll post DNGs tomorrow if it's actually an issue when I check in resolve. I used to shoot ursa 4K, so I'm used to exposing scenes properly to avoid it. I absolutely love the camera in every single other way though! Dynamic range is so great and I love the colours even in camera but especially playing with DNGs - I was never expecting it to be an A7Sii, I just don't want fpn in dark areas that aren't even getting pushed up in the grades, if this is fpn. I'm on the latest firmware by the way. Edit: shooting RAW 4:1 4.6k
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MontgomerySutton

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Apr 24, 2016 11:24 pm

I had issues with a red line (1 pixel wide) on my sensor, which was the final straw causing me to return it to Adorama until the issues are hammered out and just rent an FS5/FS7 for jobs in this mid-range between the capabilities/bulk of our BMPCC and Scarlet Dragon.

Info is in the post below:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46112&start=600#p271652

Will provide DNGs later if people care to have a peak.
Montgomery Sutton
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URSA Mini 4.6K | Red Scarlet Dragon | Canon C100 mkII | BMPCC (x2)
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James_Westlake

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Apr 24, 2016 11:49 pm

I think a red line down the sensor is a different issue though, that's clearly a sensor fault. From experience, FPN is usually an issue from pushing shots exposure in the grade - it can be visible anyway at high ISOs, but not badly like I'm experiencing with the ISO just one stop above native. So that is making me certainly hope/believe that it's a camera monitor issue. If not I guess my sensor must be faulty too, but I'll be able to check properly tomorrow
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MontgomerySutton

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostMon Apr 25, 2016 12:53 am

Oh, absolutely, but I wanted to throw in my "vertical line" issue as well for anyone reading up on the camera or checking for similar QC issues with their unit.
Montgomery Sutton
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montgomery@lupoblu.com

lupo blu, LLC (www.lupoblu.com)
Salt Pillar Productions (www.saltpillarproductions.com)

URSA Mini 4.6K | Red Scarlet Dragon | Canon C100 mkII | BMPCC (x2)
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levisdavis

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostMon Apr 25, 2016 10:21 am

+1 Vertical FPN on a brand new Micro Cinema Camera. 24 fps, F 1.7, ISO 800, 360 shutter will render the same FPN as shooting at 60 fps, F 1.7, ISO 800, 180 shutter. Essentially, I'm left unable to grade the image. May as well shoot on an 8-bit DSLR.

Plus, the sensor isn't handling light like the Pocket. The magenta slider in DR has to be pushed up to about 45 to have a proper white balance. Naturally, I finally went and bought a Hoya UV IR 700 cut filter to continue to use the BMMCC. However, I still have the same magenta hue issues, which simultaneously leads to magenta highlights. The Pocket, in my experience, is typically around +20 to +30 magenta to achieve a proper white balance, that is without the IR Cut Filter.

Appears that QC is an issue on multiple platforms... Hints the post and attempting to bridge the gap between the platforms...

This has me leaning towards the sensor manufacturer. They've delivered contaminated sensors year-after-year. They've caused serious delays in shipping year-after-year. I believe they damaged BM's rep and also AJA's. Meanwhile, they'll take millions of dollars from BM to build a specific chip and simultaneously drop production quality on all of their chips. Are they actually delivering? Should they?

Can't wait for this to be examined.
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James_Westlake

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostMon Apr 25, 2016 6:24 pm

I finally got back to my computer to review the footage, the FPN is very bad from what I can tell - here's a couple of DNGs https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h025ebxoyo5l ... m3tla?dl=0 - I don't think this is normal behaviour for this camera. I know these are dark shots, but for night time they're no darker than I'd normally want the sky to be exposed, which is where FPN is apparent. But, I'd appreciate another opinion on it and how it compares with other people's cameras?
Edit: camera is on the very latest firmware
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Kevin DeOliveira

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostMon Apr 25, 2016 9:11 pm

Having owned several BMD cams, I'd say this type of noise is pretty common in underlit scenes.

That being said, I know there are a few tips out there. Rebooting the cam once it comes up to operating temp, paying attention to temperature during boot-up, etc. This can apparently affect sensor calibration.

I'm not sure which (if any) of those tips will apply to the 4.6K, but this is as good a place as any to post your successes/failures.
BMPC4k / BMPCC / URSA Mini (Pre-order)
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James_Westlake

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostMon Apr 25, 2016 9:21 pm

Yeah I'd read they do a black balance on startup which can fix the extra visible noise as the camera gets warmer to an extent, so I did restart the camera a couple of times before taking one of those shots and it didn't improve things at all for me. Also the camera hadn't been on for long, it was the kind of shooting where I just wandered around and turned the camera on when I found a nice place to get some shots to test things. I'm used to blackmagics lowlight performance, but in my experience on the BMCC followed by the ursa 4K, it only happened when pushing exposure, like most cameras. I never had fpn in anything I shot on the CC, on the ursa I had it once in a documentary shoot. But I even shot some street scenes on the ursa 4K with only random noise at 800asa, again, until pushing the exposure in a grade
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Kevin DeOliveira

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostTue Apr 26, 2016 1:24 pm

You could certainly contact support and bounce the results off them. It's possible you got a sensor that's worse than normal.
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Adam Langdon

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostTue May 24, 2016 1:14 am

James_Westlake wrote:I finally got back to my computer to review the footage, the FPN is very bad from what I can tell - here's a couple of DNGs https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h025ebxoyo5l ... m3tla?dl=0 - I don't think this is normal behaviour for this camera. I know these are dark shots, but for night time they're no darker than I'd normally want the sky to be exposed, which is where FPN is apparent. But, I'd appreciate another opinion on it and how it compares with other people's cameras?
Edit: camera is on the very latest firmware


this is what i came up with for one of your DNGs you posted:
Image

It's void of FPN with just BMD4.6kFilm & a very soft S-Curve.
Even when i set the Color to REC709, it immediately showed FPN like crazy in the sky.
it seemed that any LUT i dropped on the footage showed FPN, but just using the curve + 65 Saturation, i was able to get a dark scene, but one void of FPN, i think.
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rick.lang

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostTue May 24, 2016 2:42 am

Very impressive, Adam.


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James_Westlake

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostTue May 24, 2016 8:34 am

Adam Langdon wrote:
James_Westlake wrote:I finally got back to my computer to review the footage, the FPN is very bad from what I can tell - here's a couple of DNGs https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h025ebxoyo5l ... m3tla?dl=0 - I don't think this is normal behaviour for this camera. I know these are dark shots, but for night time they're no darker than I'd normally want the sky to be exposed, which is where FPN is apparent. But, I'd appreciate another opinion on it and how it compares with other people's cameras?
Edit: camera is on the very latest firmware


this is what i came up with for one of your DNGs you posted:
Image

It's void of FPN with just BMD4.6kFilm & a very soft S-Curve.
Even when i set the Color to REC709, it immediately showed FPN like crazy in the sky.
it seemed that any LUT i dropped on the footage showed FPN, but just using the curve + 65 Saturation, i was able to get a dark scene, but one void of FPN, i think.


That's very interesting, the grade you posted looks really good! Nonetheless, I RMAd the camera and got a new one which seems absolutely fine :) but it's good to know that the luts make it worse than just increasing saturation and contrast, I'll have to try that myself too! It doesn't make much sense why that would happen though!
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Liam O'Brien

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostMon Jun 20, 2016 1:40 pm

Hi. I'm also encountering what sounds like the same vertical banding/discolouration issue - also appearing in the shadows of certain ungraded shots. From my own experience (and what other people are posting) the problem seems to be worse when using a combination of 1600ISO with 360 degree shutter angle. It would be nice if this was a known issue and is being addressed in future firmware updates.
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rick.lang

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Jun 22, 2016 5:12 am

I've been recording at 1600 without noticing a problem, but I'm shooting 180 or 172.8 degree shutter angles or less. I think I'll try some low light ISO 1600 at 360 degrees to see what happens. I might need to use that actually in a shoot so good to know it can be problematic. Never enough testing!


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Julien Cheron

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Sep 18, 2016 4:21 am

Hey everyone,

Received my camera this week (serial starting at 3211) but if someone can point me in the right direction towards what looks to be some nasty lines in dark areas of my footage I'd much appreciate it!

Image Black scene boosted 5 stops

Image Boosted 2 stops (horizontal band near window top left)
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Christophe Deshoux

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostTue Sep 20, 2016 5:41 pm

Wow! I am still astonished that these problems of noise and vertical lines appear on the latest cameras manufactured by Blackmagic. What is amazing is the amount of people who think all this is normal! and tries to justify this unacceptable problem of current professional camera.
Now, there is still no explanation of Blackmagic ... Why ?? it becomes a great mystery !! ... a mystery that is not a good advertisement for the Australian firm. These same problems are spreading on forums for over two years ... We never saw it in others (Red, Canon, Sony, Panasonic ...). Why Blackmagic merely exchange the cameras recognized (?) As "defective", without giving an explanation ?? ...
Yet I remain interested in their cameras because they are really good !! without these problems, their sensors are fabulous !! Their cameras (BMPCC4K, Ursa or Pocket) are very close and Arri cameras at several levels higher than Red.
So is this good news if Blackmagic does not leave new camera Porbablement this year ... ... in fact, it is hoped that this is the case, for better review the reliability of sensors ...

I already had the BMPCC (Pocket) and first BMPC4K, perfect, without any problems on my shoots. There are some days I bought another BMPC4K ... this one with a sensor combining all the problems Blackmagic !! A horrible noise, vertical lines on all the shadows ... The support does not talk and making the exchange.
But without guarantee me that the next camera will be perfect ... (I just contatcs meet three people in the same situation, who have done more than three exchanges before receiving a "normal" camera ...

I believe there was a petition last year to force Blackmagic to respond to this wave of problems ... but I think this had no success, only a few people were present ... what surprises me lot ... and this can also reassure me. Because it would mean that these problems are not as common as you might think?

I wait anxiously my "new" camera ...

(sorry for my bad english… :-))
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Christophe Deshoux

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Sep 21, 2016 10:46 am

Do you think this is normal? ... For a professional camera? ...
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Christophe Deshoux

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Re: Vertical Lines in Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Sep 21, 2016 2:35 pm

FPN concerns all current sensors BMPC4K cameras.
(It seems that the Ursa Mini 4.6 is also concerned !! ...)
random vertical lines (iso 200, 400 and 800)
The camera heats very quickly. (The fan is not effective enough)
The internal battery remains unstable and often defective.
For over two years, no concrete response from Grant Petty about it.
The only explanation: this camera is not done for low-light shooting.
All this is not serious, not professional.
No other brand (Sony, Red, Canon, Panasonic ...) will also remain "silent" with its customers.

Ostensibly, Blackmagic behave "normally" by organizing a replacement for your camera regarded as "defective" (you know n'e not more!), But to receive another camera ... same with its features (described in the list characteristics and on the BM site), and its defective portion.
The answer is in the choice of the sensor, then no update will not fix. Know it.

I had 3 Blackmagic cameras: 1 Pocket (no problem), 1 BMPC4K (no problem ...), then there is a second one week BMPC4K, gathering all the problems mentioned above. Unable to work with that.
Currently the process of exchange is ongoing.
Will I get lucky?

Today I'd like to know if there exists a series not having these problems.
We must believe that it exists, because I myself have a BMPC4K who did not have these flaws.
Maybe this "normal" series is discoverable following serial numbers?

For example, here the serial number of my faulty camera: 3052863

If someone an idea, a track, a response, it interests me!

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